tree felling

crossbill

Anyone notice a lot of trees being felled all over the place recently, surely this isnt acceptable?

$kilkenny

Its a business, it happens.
And its supporting jobs.

Oldtree

ive noticed a lot of ad hoc trees have been takendown, for no aparent reason probably for firewood and probably with no felling licence. Is that what you mean? If so no issue of real jobs there.

Forestry coups would be felled on a rotation and it may seem like a lot of them are being felled togeather as they could have been planted at the same time years ago.

crossbill

No, not forestry, no problem wit that, jobs, renewable resource etc
This is felling of single trees all over the place, esp Ash, for firewood and/or hurleybutts, often theft or on pretxt of cleaning up!
What really has me livid is that I was told of an Ancient Oak that has been felled in Galway and I know someone who said they were contacted to buy it. This tree was perhaps 500 years old.
Like deer poaching, Im wondering is everything fair game now for the sake of a quick buck?
Cos thata what some seem to think!

Oldtree

You have to have a licence for tree felling (mostly)
http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/forestservice/treefelling/legalrequirementsfortreefelling/

If you know of tree felling that may not have a licence and needed one then report it.

but enforcement is lacking here

crossbill

Wont put the tree back up.......

F.D

Its not nice to see old trees cut down and i dont agree with them been cut, but on the other hand if a farmer has made a consious decision to be green and say sow a line of trees around his property for firewood in the future, which i have been putting some thought in doing so, the last thing i want in ten years is someone coming and telling me i shouldn't fell them because they look nice etc, they were sown for a reason and wouldnt have been there other wise, to me it would be more sense to say if you chop one down you have to sow a replacement, but over all there will be no increase of trees planted in hedgerows unless farmers can manage them how they like

Oldtree

F.D wrote: »

Its not nice to see old trees cut down and i dont agree with them been cut, but on the other hand if a farmer has made a consious decision to be green and say sow a line of trees around his property for firewood in the future, which i have been putting some thought in doing so, the last thing i want in ten years is someone coming and telling me i shouldn't fell them because they look nice etc, they were sown for a reason and wouldnt have been there other wise, to me it would be more sense to say if you chop one down you have to sow a replacement, but over all there will be no increase of trees planted in hedgerows unless farmers can manage them how they like

the licence procedure is a very easy thing to do (painless having done it), which is why you get one should you wish to fell trees that are over ten years old. The law is the same for non farmers as it is for farmers, a farmer is not being picked on here and is activly encouraged with higher grant premiums for planting forestry that non-farmers, and also recieves benifits within what I know to be reps for a greener management of their farm.

http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/forestservice/treefelling/legalrequirementsfortreefelling/

Hedgerows are not usually grown for firewood, they may contain some trees that are coppiced regularly for firewood, but they are more of a longer term benifit to the farm - such as shelter to increase stock yield and leaf litter to improve the soil umong others. Hedgerows do not compete with grass for nutrients as they generally have deeper rooting systems and bring up nutriens from well below where the grass roots can reach.

F.D

Oldtree wrote: »

the licence procedure is a very easy thing to do (painless having done it), which is why you get one should you wish to fell trees that are over ten years old. The law is the same for non farmers as it is for farmers, a farmer is not being picked on here and is activly encouraged with higher grant premiums for planting forestry that non-farmers, and also recieves benifits within what I know to be reps for a greener management of their farm.

http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/forestservice/treefelling/legalrequirementsfortreefelling/

Hedgerows are not usually grown for firewood, they may contain some trees that are coppiced regularly for firewood, but they are more of a longer term benifit to the farm - such as shelter to increase stock yield and leaf litter to improve the soil umong others. Hedgerows do not compete with grass for nutrients as they generally have deeper rooting systems and bring up nutriens from well below where the grass roots can reach.

Sorry i probably should have been clearer i'm not suggesting farmers are been picked on here, but with most hedgerows cut to about 4 ft high here and little or no trees i was just suggesting a farmer would probably grow more trees, but as you say when coppicing before there ten years old theres no need for the licence anyway

crossbill

No problem with all that has been said on this so far but the tree that was felled recently was an ancient oak, with a girth of of well over twenty feet and in the middle of a field. I was told that it was growing since the 17th century and rivalled the great oak at charleville.
Whatever about the mindset of any person who would put a saw to a piece of heritage like this ,the tree should have had national monument status or something?
I wonder do any of our ancient significant trees have any real protection?

Rovi

crossbill wrote: »

I wonder do any of our ancient significant trees have any real protection?

There IS provision in Irish law for Tree Preservation Orders:
Planning and Development Act, 2000, Section 205

...but I have no idea if or how often it's used.

periodictable

crossbill wrote: »

Anyone notice a lot of trees being felled all over the place recently, surely this isnt acceptable?

You're talking about individual trees?
Well the Forestry act is clear about that.
But it should be remembered that some people haven't the money for home heating oil, or cannot afford fuel for the fire.
It's about time the felling legislation was updated-it was brought in to control the timber supply- but I believe that landowners ought to be able to remove the odd tree on their land to for their own personal firewood needs. Less state interference in property rights and a common sense approach with wide powers of discretion is what is needed.
You talk about the oak- do you know if it was structurally sound, and the reason for felling it?

cannotdisplay

crossbill wrote: »

tree that was felled recently was an ancient oak, with a girth of of well over twenty feet

any link about this tree?

the general work around the place on hedgerows i think is mostly down to it being the time of year to get clearing done

GY A1

But it should be remembered that some people haven't the money for home heating oil, or cannot afford fuel for the fire.

Hi
The above is true in cases,
There is alot of tree felling and cutting lately,
We don't fell any standing trees here at all, only just cut up any bits or tree's that fall due to a storm

Oldtree

Rovi wrote: »

There IS provision in Irish law for Tree Preservation Orders:
Planning and Development Act, 2000, Section 205

...but I have no idea if or how often it's used.

rarely in this neck of the woods. I tried to get a few trees added to the tpos and was ignored.

Oldtree

periodictable wrote: »

You're talking about individual trees?
Well the Forestry act is clear about that.
But it should be remembered that some people haven't the money for home heating oil, or cannot afford fuel for the fire.
It's about time the felling legislation was updated-it was brought in to control the timber supply- but I believe that landowners ought to be able to remove the odd tree on their land to for their own personal firewood needs. Less state interference in property rights and a common sense approach with wide powers of discretion is what is needed.
You talk about the oak- do you know if it was structurally sound, and the reason for felling it?

it dosnt cost anything to apply for a felling licence.
The forestry law it still under review with updated legislation promises, when i dont know.
Descretion needs to be limited as well as we cant allow a free for all on all trees like this oak, can we? if like me you have planted with the intention of felling in 10-15 years for firewood then that would be appropiate to allow descretion for, but i would still prefer control on older trees as ther is no inherent respect for these trees here, and i have no problems with the licence structure as it stands as i have been forthright with them detailing all my plans so there is going to be no problems.
It dosnt matter if the oak wasnt structurally sound there was virtually no hazard in the middle of a field therefore no excuse for it removal, and unlikely a licence would have been granted for it. if i saw it done i would report it nomatter what. It should be remembered that the declining years of a tree like this oak is part of its life cycle, 300 years to grow 300 years to mature and 300 years to die.

periodictable

Common sense has gone out the window in Ireland with respect to forestry.
There's an aggressive younger inspector out there who in most cases is from an urban background and has no understanding of how life in the country works. Discretion means nothing to them-I doubt they could spell the word-and the they go by the letter of the law not the spirit.
Read the Dail debates surrounding the introduction of the 1946 Forestry Act-there's where you get what the legislators were trying to achieve.
There's nothing wrong with felling trees-we grow them, in most cases, to be felled ultimately.
Maybe a scheme to encourage farmers to plant hedgerow trees, with the implicit understanding that they will be allowed to harvest for firewood a percentage of them at some stage, based on form or species.
As an aside, am I the only one that resents the growing encroachment and even tyranny of the state as it muscles in on the private sphere? Less government please.

crossbill

It appears theres no govt!
I rang galway coco and there is no TPO in the county, not even for the autograph tree in Coole!
If a landowner can fell part of our heritage and then justify it on the basis that he feels hes entitled to a few bob, well then no tree is safe!

Oldtree

crossbill wrote: »

If a landowner can fell part of our heritage and then justify it on the basis that he feels hes entitled to a few bob, well then no tree is safe!

he cant without a licence and in the case of this oak i doubt very much he would have got a licence.

Oldtree

periodictable wrote: »

As an aside, am I the only one that resents the growing encroachment and even tyranny of the state as it muscles in on the private sphere? Less government please.

no one esp me likes to be told what to do. but look around you P the lack of respect for the environment in this country needs tight regulation, look at the state of it.

prime example 1992 eu legislation protects limestone pavements. despite the eu's best efforts our masters are still allowing them to be dug up, our water is ****e and it looks like the food is too! Its clear that the grab a buck crew need to be brought under control in a legal sense as they cannot be trusted to do it on their own merits. We need to go very far to the right in order to swing back to the left to get an appropiate balance imo, not to mention education.

crossbill

Fine for felling a tree without a licence is 60 euro so no real disincentive there, unless you fell a load.
Dont get me wrong, im all for felling and using trees for firewood, hurleys, timber whatever as long as more are planted but there really appears to be no real protection for ancient heritage trees, the very ones that might be resistant to diseases.
Why are TPOs not being applied? Does anyone even know of any trees with TPOs?

Moocifer

TPO's can only be applied by the local authorities. The reason they aren't keen on using them is, once they do the tree becomes their responsibility. If a tree has a TPO on it no way would a felling licence ever be issued for it.

crossbill

Moocifer wrote: »

TPO's can only be applied by the local authorities. The reason they aren't keen on using them is, once they do the tree becomes their responsibility. If a tree has a TPO on it no way would a felling licence ever be issued for it.

Thanks moocifer,
My question still stands though, does anyone know any tree that is protected by a TPO and if so, what co co is actually doing what it is supposed to and implementing them?

tony007

crossbill wrote: »

No, not forestry, no problem wit that, jobs, renewable resource etc
This is felling of single trees all over the place, esp Ash, for firewood and/or hurleybutts, often theft or on pretxt of cleaning up!
What really has me livid is that I was told of an Ancient Oak that has been felled in Galway and I know someone who said they were contacted to buy it. This tree was perhaps 500 years old.
Like deer poaching, Im wondering is everything fair game now for the sake of a quick buck?
Cos thata what some seem to think!

Report that.

periodictable

Oldtree wrote: »

no one esp me likes to be told what to do. but look around you P the lack of respect for the environment in this country needs tight regulation, look at the state of it.

prime example 1992 eu legislation protects limestone pavements. despite the eu's best efforts our masters are still allowing them to be dug up, our water is ****e and it looks like the food is too! Its clear that the grab a buck crew need to be brought under control in a legal sense as they cannot be trusted to do it on their own merits. We need to go very far to the right in order to swing back to the left to get an appropiate balance imo, not to mention education.

from one extreme to another? not a solution- in fact it is causing more damage than ever.
If someone breaks the law, apply the penalty-in fact strict liability ought to attach for environmental damage.
I suppose it's just another example of how broken this damned state is.

Oldtree

periodictable wrote: »

from one extreme to another? not a solution- in fact it is causing more damage than ever.
If someone breaks the law, apply the penalty-in fact strict liability ought to attach for environmental damage.
I suppose it's just another example of how broken this damned state is.

no point in moderation with people who couldnt care less. Any sort of liberal attitude would be abused here.

Oldtree

crossbill wrote: »

Thanks moocifer,
My question still stands though, does anyone know any tree that is protected by a TPO and if so, what co co is actually doing what it is supposed to and implementing them?

yes, they are usually listed in the development plans or local area plans.

crossbill

I have tried and failed to answer my own question through research today. I still have no idea how many, IF ANY, TPOs there are in the Country. I have scoured the Clare coco development plan to no avail! Galway coco sai they have none and I rang some experts and they have no idea?
Is this the 3rd secret of Fatima?
Please, can anybody categorically point me toward any tree protected by a TPO?

Fiskar

If theres no TPO in Meath then I start felling next tuesday!
Some branches have got to come down to keep the two legged vermin around here visible and hopefully away from our area.

periodictable

crossbill wrote: »

I have tried and failed to answer my own question through research today. I still have no idea how many, IF ANY, TPOs there are in the Country. I have scoured the Clare coco development plan to no avail! Galway coco sai they have none and I rang some experts and they have no idea?
Is this the 3rd secret of Fatima?
Please, can anybody categorically point me toward any tree protected by a TPO?

I know of a road in Clare where all the trees- just usual roadside trees- have TPOs

crossbill

Thanks, thats a start

Oldtree

crossbill wrote: »

I have tried and failed to answer my own question through research today. I still have no idea how many, IF ANY, TPOs there are in the Country. I have scoured the Clare coco development plan to no avail! Galway coco sai they have none and I rang some experts and they have no idea?
Is this the 3rd secret of Fatima?
Please, can anybody categorically point me toward any tree protected by a TPO?

Westport town development plan 2010-2016 map with TPO listed (notice the date of 1991):
http://www.mayococo.ie/en/Planning/DevelopmentPlansLocalAreaPlansandStrategies/TownCouncilandEnvironPlans/Westport/Document7,18108,en.pdf

interesting planning application in Westport:
http://www.mayococo.ie/PlanSearch/mcc4/PlanningViewer/displayafile.asp?la=1&filenum=081452

you can find other TPO's but they are sparce.
I hope that helps your in your quest.

Oldtree

I posted this before:

520 tree felled (by mistake by a developer) where the department did all they could taking the issue to court expecting a €63 fine per tree and replanting order for the site, but the judge only issued a replanting order for the site.
I wonder why?

http://www.friendsoftheirishenvironm...=view&id=11002

the developer has 17 planning application in Mayo since 1990, search here:

http://www.mayococo.ie/PlanSearch/mc...SelectPlan.asp

look at the GIS dataset map in backing docs for this withdrawn planning application in 2007, also includes an observation from the department, for the site involved in the court case:

http://www.mayococo.ie/PlanSearch/mc...num=07615&la=1

look at the GIS dataset map for this previous planning application in 2004,
which includes the lands in the 2007 application:

http://www.mayococo.ie/PlanSearch/mc...um=043664&la=1

the 2004 planning decision, dowloaded from the council website as a pdf file, for this application is below and look at reasons 30 and 31.

strangely this site remains unplanted:

https://maps.google.ie/maps?hl=en&ll=53.542953,-9.282825&spn=0.002279,0.004764&t=h&z=18

It is my understanding the developer was allowed to plant up another site instead, suit you sir???

try to find this on the internet:

From the Western People:
Wednesday, December 12, 2007

Error led to felling of 520 trees

A CONG man who illegal felled 520 trees near his home in South Mayo will have to report to the local District Court for a period of ten years.

Fergal O’Mahony, Old School, Cong, appeared at Ballinrobe District Court on charges under the Forestry Act. The court heard O’Mahony uprooted and cut down 520 trees, without a felling licence, at a site at Nymphsfield, Cong. The trees, which were at least 10 years old, were a mixture of ash, scotts pine, super spruce, oak and beech. Before cutting down the trees, O’Mahony had not served notice on the Gardaí and had later claimed the trees were on a site owned by him, where he intended to seek planning permission to build a new family home.

The court heard O’Mahony had not been aware he was committing an offence
by felling the trees, as he had checked to see if the site was deemed an area of conservation and learned that it was not. The defendant pleaded guilty to the charges before the court.

Mr Seamus Hughes, State Solicitor, said the penalty in such a case was a fine of €63 per tree. However, the Department of Agriculture was currently in negotiations with Mr O’Mahony, who had expressed his sincere apologies, explaining that he really had no idea he was doing anything wrong.

The defendant had offered to re-plant a section of the site, as well as offering another portion of land to replant some more trees, to make up for the loss.
Mr Hughes noted that the Department is interested in the landowner’s proposal, but pointed out that, legally, the Minister must obtain a conviction before issuing the re-planting order. Nevertheless, the solicitor commented that the Minister had indicated that he would like to see O’Mahony go ahead with the proposed planting.

Mr Creed, solicitor, stressed his client had not acted out of malevolence and had actually contacted Dúchas to make sure the site was not located in a special area of conservation. The defendant hired a contractor to remove trees and when the matter was brought to Mr O’Mahony’s attention he immediately put his hands up.

The solicitor said his client had entered into immediate discussions with the Department of Agriculture. Mr O’Mahony valued his good name, was involved in many community organisations and was embarrassed by what had occurred. Mr Creed said his client ran a thriving business which involved travel to the United States. A conviction against him might prevent him from travelling to the US in the future and he implored Judge Devins not to impose a conviction.

“My client is in open correspondence with the Department and has hired a horticulturist and a tree expert to re-plant the trees. This is a case of human error. He did not wilfully set out to break the law and he is prepared to pay any costs to the State. In the circumstances, I would ask the court to please consider some method of dealing with this case without imposing a conviction,” said Mr Creed.

Judge Mary Devins said she accepted the evidence given by the defence but the Department of Agriculture would need reassurance that if the trees were replanted they would not be cut down some time later.

In this regard, Judge Devins suggested that the matter be adjourned for a lengthy period and brought back before the court on an annual basis. She ordered that Mr O’Mahony contribute to the State’s legal costs and said that she would reassess the case on a year-to-year basis so that negotiations could be entered into and that the re-planting could be carried out. Concluding, she adjourned the case to December 2, 2008, for mention.

crossbill

Thanks Oldtree,
Thats very interesting and i note the planning appl to thin trees was withdrawn?
It is good to know that some councils actually make an effort in this regard.

crossbill

Sorry Oldtree, last reply sent to your previuos message! Just got yuor last one now, thanks again, il read it in detail over tea!:)

Oldtree

not really an effort on the councils behalf when the application is withdrawn, nonetheless Westport is a special case and they are very aware of the beauty of the place and the need to retain it as such.

Oldtree

crossbill wrote: »

Sorry Oldtree, last reply sent to your previuos message! Just got yuor last one now, thanks again, il read it in detail over tea!:)

Some info on Judge Mary Devins

http://www.sligotoday.ie/details.php?id=21347

crossbill

Oldtree wrote: »

Some info on Judge Mary Devins

http://www.sligotoday.ie/details.php?id=21347[/Quote



Mmm married to fianna fail td.....