Airsoft Adverts, Infraction Issued

S.E.A.L.s

This is new for me, so please forgive any error

Yesterday I was infracted for a breach of the forum charter here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056251540&page=4

The infraction was issued for: Offering over Asking price

An appeal was made to the Mod involved, where I stated: "I'm kindly appealing you cancel this infraction, as the sellers response to the other offer was ambiguous and unclear at the time"

Meaning I could not of offered over the asking price, as that point was unclear at the time, to which the Mod replied: "Hi (name removed) once the seller stated "offer provisionally accepted" then the asking price was set in accordance with the Rules @ €160 so your offer of €170 breached the Rules and thus incurred an infraction

I would have thought that you would know this and understand that I only applied the Rules without bias or favoritism"

As per the appeals process, can someone please review this infraction?

Thank you

Beasty

OK, I'll have a look at this. I need to check into the background with the local mods and review the forum rules, so it may be a day or two before I get back

S.E.A.L.s

Beasty wrote: »

OK, I'll have a look at this. I need to check into the background with the local mods and review the forum rules, so it may be a day or two before I get back

Thank you

Beasty

OK, I've had a look at this.

Looking at the Airsoft Adverts rules I do not believe it is possible for a seller to accept an offer conditionally. Hence when in this case the seller stated "offer provisionally accepted" I read that as it is only "provisional", or "conditional" in the context of the conditions imposed by the person making the offer. The offer was made was worded "Offer €160 on inspection and collection"

I do not see any ambiguity here. The seller clearly stated that a price of 160 was acceptable, and under the forum rules that became the new asking price. Your own offer was worded "Offer €170 euros, same terms", which makes it clear to me that you understood those terms to be "on inspection and collection". Making an offer in excess of the asking price is a clear breach of the forum charter

I could see some scope for a misunderstanding on your part if you had not applied the same "conditionality" to your own offer. I would also add that it is clear that you do pay close attention to the rules of the forum

Hence in my view you clearly did break the rules, and should have known you were breaking the rules.

In terms of whether a red card was appropriate, or a lesser penalty, this is really down to mod discretion. You do have 3 other cards to your name in the forum, and as I mentioned above it's clear you study the rules closely. Hence I can see no compelling reason to reduce the penalty, although I would consider anything further you have to say before reaching a final decision on this

S.E.A.L.s

I'm mobile at the moment and will response in detail tomorrow, if that is acceptable please?

Beasty

Absolutely - there's no rush from this side

S.E.A.L.s

Beasty wrote: »

OK, I've had a look at this.

Looking at the Airsoft Adverts rules I do not believe it is possible for a seller to accept an offer conditionally. Hence when in this case the seller stated "offer provisionally accepted" I read that as it is only "provisional", or "conditional" in the context of the conditions imposed by the person making the offer. The offer was made was worded "Offer €160 on inspection and collection"

I do not see any ambiguity here. The seller clearly stated that a price of 160 was acceptable, and under the forum rules that became the new asking price. Your own offer was worded "Offer €170 euros, same terms", which makes it clear to me that you understood those terms to be "on inspection and collection". Making an offer in excess of the asking price is a clear breach of the forum charter

I could see some scope for a misunderstanding on your part if you had not applied the same "conditionality" to your own offer. I would also add that it is clear that you do pay close attention to the rules of the forum

Hence in my view you clearly did break the rules, and should have known you were breaking the rules.

In terms of whether a red card was appropriate, or a lesser penalty, this is really down to mod discretion. You do have 3 other cards to your name in the forum, and as I mentioned above it's clear you study the rules closely. Hence I can see no compelling reason to reduce the penalty, although I would consider anything further you have to say before reaching a final decision on this

Thank you for addressing this request and on the first point, sellers can and do accept offers conditionally + make counter offers with conditions attached on a regular basis in that forum, if this has changed please advise or clarify?

On the second point, my reference to "same terms" is related to my earlier offer in post #54, not the OP's offer in post #55 and if this reference is going to be held against me, please advise why no action was taken for post #63?

Also, as my other three(3) infractions have come up, to date I deserved each of those and it should be noted, the first two(2) are from 2011 and my first red card is from 2012, each of these infractions were for different breaches of the charter and I fully accept them as errors in judgement on my part

Regarding this infraction, I posted my offer in good faith and under the belief it was valid at the time

Thank you again

Beasty

So in accepting an offer "provisionally", what condition's could the seller potentially have been imposing? There is no explicit condition whatsoever, and I cannot see any scope for an implicit one. I simply read this as the seller recognising the offer hade been made subject to condition, and the seller was not then in a position to pull out if the person making the offer was happy with the condition of the item.

S.E.A.L.s

Beasty wrote: »

So in accepting an offer "provisionally", what condition's could the seller potentially have been imposing? There is no explicit condition whatsoever, and I cannot see any scope for an implicit one. I simply read this as the seller recognising the offer hade been made subject to condition, and the seller was not then in a position to pull out if the person making the offer was happy with the condition of the item.

Potentially speaking, he could of been looking for a quick sale, to be completed by a designated date, as he was responding to offers quickly and had the item for sale since April 2011, so wanted it sold sooner rather than later

The only reason I'm saying could of, is because no post by the seller states quick sale (that I'm aware of), so it was implied and my offer in post #54 refects that position

Also, if the OP who was interested and has since completed the sale, could not meet a deadline for any reason, the seller could of sold the item to me

Beasty

OK, I’ve had a further look at this.

There is little doubt that you know and understand the rules of this forum very well. You are its most prolific poster (by a country mile), and also show a thorough knowledge as evidenced by the comments you have made in various reported posts and discussions you have had with mods over the interpretation of forum rules

It appears quite clear to me that you interpreted the rules as you saw fit to suit your own purpose, which was to purchase the item in question in the knowledge that someone else had “got there before you”. If there was any ambiguity (and I do not believe there was) you could have sought clarification before making an offer, or indeed made the offer with a suitable caveat. You chose not to and as a result I believe you did so in the knowledge you were attempting to twist the rules to your own advantage.

The only question in my mind is whether a red card is slightly harsh. Ultimately this is a mod discretion issue. There was a breach of rules, and you really should have known better. However I am prepared to reduce the card to a yellow, but with a comment that if there is any scope for doubt in your future dealings in the forum you should seek clarification first. If something like this happens again I would support a harsher penalty if imposed by the local mods.

Is this acceptable, or would you like an Admin to review this?

S.E.A.L.s

While I appreciate the fairness you have shown me and I'm happy with the above decision, I've got to ask why no action was taken for post #63?

Before moving forward or accepting any decision

Beasty

This thread is for discussing your card and not whether someone else's post warrants further action

I will however make the following points:

History in the forum is relevant in determining what action to take and you have picked up 3 cards previously
The other poster was simply responding to an attempted "gazump" on their offer by you

In the circumstances, my position is that a yellow card for your post with the other post being dealt with in-thread is entirely reasonable

Can we now mark this resolved?

S.E.A.L.s

Beasty wrote: »

This thread is for discussing your card and not whether someone else's post warrants further action

I will however make the following points:

History in the forum is relevant in determining what action to take and you have picked up 3 cards previously
The other poster was simply responding to an attempted "gazump" on their offer by you

In the circumstances, my position is that a yellow card for your post with the other post being dealt with in-thread is entirely reasonable

Can we now mark this resolved?

This is related to my case, because the Mod who issued this infraction and I have met in person in the past, so I can quote him as saying "one rule for all"

Also, quoted from his reply to my appeal "I only applied the Rules without bias or favoritism"

If what he said is true, why was I infracted and the other person not?

Beasty

That post is not relevant to this appeal

Do you want an Admin to review my decision to reduce the red to a yellow or can we mark this appeal as resolved?

S.E.A.L.s

Beasty wrote: »

That post is not relevant to this appeal

Do you want an Admin to review my decision to reduce the red to a yellow or can we mark this appeal as resolved?

There is little point in escalating this appeal, in fact it may even work against me, so I accept your decision to reduce the red to a yellow and accept my share of the blame, with the following noted please

In this case, my experience with the Moderator who issued this infraction is that he made statements about how he moderates, then chose to single me out and ignore others

Also, I may come accross as a rules lawyer and that is only because I believe in rules, which has worked against me in this case and many times in the past

Thank you for being fair, direct and for your time, it's much appreciated

Beasty

Thanks and noted

I will ask for the red to be revoked (it may take a few days), and will then issue a yellow to replace it

This dispute can be marked resolved

S.E.A.L.s

Beasty wrote: »

Thanks and noted

I will ask for the red to be revoked (it may take a few days), and will then issue a yellow to replace it

This dispute can be marked resolved

Much appreciated