Local Property Tax Goes Live

Gumbo

http://www.revenue.ie/en/index.html

Can't really work the map as I'm on the phone but will check if I get to a PC at any time.

jimmynokia

Here https://lpt.revenue.ie/lpt-web/valuation-guide/index.htm

Vizzy

kceire wrote: »

http://www.revenue.ie/en/index.html

Can't really work the map as I'm on the phone but will check if I get to a PC at any time.

I can't see the interactive price guide at all

Gumbo

Vizzy wrote: »

I can't see the interactive price guide at all

It breaks down the approx values by map colour. I hate those maps. The colours are too close together at the brown end to determine properly which mine falls into.

Pic added

murphaph

kceire wrote: »

It breaks down the approx values by map colour. I hate those maps. The colours are too close together at the brown end to determine properly which mine falls into.

You just click where your house is and you get a popup.

murphaph

It's buggy.

I was looking for a rental property I have in Clonsilla and noticed the adjoining electroal district (BLANCHARDSTOWN-MULHUDDART) has the average price of a semi-d at €750,001 - €800,000. Funnily the other property types looked ok.

Be careful with this thing. This bug was easy to spot but if the thing gets your area wrong by a single band, it might not be so easy to spot!

Gumbo

murphaph wrote: »

You just click where your house is and you get a popup.

Cheers, working now.
It has me as Dublin city council but I'm fingal county council, valuation seems correct though.

username123

murphaph wrote: »

You just click where your house is and you get a popup.

The band where I live is the same colour for an area that contains 4 bed detatched, 3 bed semi-d's, council terraces and apartments.

I clicked on my road and they have overvalued mine by 3 tax bands. Its a very very blunt instrument.

I wonder if pointing out from the price register that nowhere on my street has made their minimum valuation would make any difference. :rolleyes:

Gumbo

username123 wrote: »

The band where I live is the same colour for an area that contains 4 bed detatched, 3 bed semi-d's, council terraces and apartments.

I clicked on my road and they have overvalued mine by 3 tax bands. Its a very very blunt instrument.

The colours are a rough price range. You then have to adjust your valuation based on your house. So yours would be worth less than the 4 bed but more than a 2 bed, if yours is a 3 bed for example.

Deleted User wrote: »

I wonder if pointing out from the price register that nowhere on my street has made their minimum valuation would make any difference. :rolleyes:

Yes, asking as you have evidence that your house is worth what you say it is, then save it and store it just incase of an audit from revenue.

murphaph

username123 wrote: »

The band where I live is the same colour for an area that contains 4 bed detatched, 3 bed semi-d's, council terraces and apartments.

I clicked on my road and they have overvalued mine by 3 tax bands. Its a very very blunt instrument.

Blunt indeed. I jointly own a semi-d in Newcastle Co. Dublin and I see that Bungalows, Semi-d's, detached and terraced houses all fall into the same 200-250k band somehow. That's clearly nonsense IMO.

It's extremely blunt. Barely any use tbh. I'm gonna use the property price register as I feel it's overvaluing rather than undervaluing.

mikemac1

Rural Tipp

Every single property is 100k-150k band.
Except for terraced housing which is one street in a village and there are only two villages in the area

There is one block of flats built above a pub and in the pub car park, none of these are worth close to 100k.

The only semi detached is the local authority estate built 30 years ago but almost all of these are privately owned by now. Not worth 100k imo.

However bungalows can be worth a lot more, a few around that's I'd call not far off a mansion.
So those could well be worth over 150k and I'm not thinking Celtic Tiger prices here

Town bands don't work here, a bungalow is more valuable then a flat above a pub!

Gumbo

In fairness guys, what did ye expect? An individual price break down for every property in the country?

The colour guides are average prices for that area, up to us to adjust up or down accordingly.

kabakuyu

This is a totally useless guide for Galway city, a detached house on Taylors Hill road is valued at 200-250k,I'll have 2 at those prices.:rolleyes:

kceire

kceire wrote: »

In fairness guys, what did ye expect? An individual price break down for every property in the country?

The colour guides are average prices for that area, up to us to adjust up or down accordingly.

I didn't expect it to be anywhere near perfect but in my locality it's ridiculous. I'm on the edge of one price band and the one next to me is a higher one, despite it being composed almost entirely of a council estate.
You say it's a guide for the area, based on average prices, I'd like to know where they're getting the data from, maybe not everything has been put on the house price register.:rolleyes:

username123

kceire wrote: »

In fairness guys, what did ye expect? An individual price break down for every property in the country?

The colour guides are average prices for that area, up to us to adjust up or down accordingly.

Its a waste of money, a completely useless blunt instrument.

jimmynokia

kceire wrote: »

In fairness guys, what did ye expect? An individual price break down for every property in the country?

The colour guides are average prices for that area, up to us to adjust up or down accordingly.

Yeah! The revenue are supposed to know everything,they know who every taxpayer is .

Gumbo

Deleted User wrote: »

I
You say it's a guide for the area, based on average prices, I'd like to know where they're getting the data from, maybe not everything has been put on the house price register.:rolleyes:

I dont say, revenue says that, it tells you on the website.

Gumbo

username123 wrote: »

Its a waste of money, a completely useless blunt instrument.

jimmynokia wrote: »

Yeah! The revenue are supposed to know everything,they know who every taxpayer is .

Use your own valuations then guys, Jesus, do his want everything handed to ya. Did the boom make the nation lazy or just a bunch of grumpy old farts?

efb

It values my house the same as I do so I'm happy

km79

So this is what the revenue valuations will be based on ?

username123

kceire wrote: »

Did the boom make the nation lazy or just a bunch of grumpy old farts?

Neither, I just object to more waste of taxes with spending on a completely useless blunt instrument.

murphaph

kceire wrote: »

Use your own valuations then guys, Jesus, do his want everything handed to ya. Did the boom make the nation lazy or just a bunch of grumpy old farts?

The German tax office just sends me an exact bill for my property tax. I don't think it's too much to expect. I have not found any examples of self assessed property taxation anywhere else in the world. It's a Mickey Mouse job.

To implement this properly we need:
-accurate postcodes or geo-location etc.
-accurate data about property type and size being recorded into the property price register

Without these things we can forget ever having a fair system that isn't a shambles.

Ogham

murphaph wrote: »

I have not found any examples of self assessed property taxation anywhere else in the world. It's a Mickey Mouse job.

From http://www.moneyguideireland.com/self-assessment-of-property-tax.html

"a recent IMF report mentioned that self assessment for property tax was not very common – they only mentioned one place where it had been used with success – and that was Bogota in Columbia"

We're in good company then ! :eek:

nesf

murphaph wrote: »

The German tax office just sends me an exact bill for my property tax. I don't think it's too much to expect. I have not found any examples of self assessed property taxation anywhere else in the world. It's a Mickey Mouse job.

To implement this properly we need:
-accurate postcodes or geo-location etc.
-accurate data about property type and size being recorded into the property price register

Without these things we can forget ever having a fair system that isn't a shambles.

The problem is the German property market has been fairly stable over the past decade whereas ours hasn't. If you're in an area which has seen very, very little property sales in the past two or three years, how exactly does the Government (or you, to be fair) value the property? We can't use property values from the boom obviously and property sales of recent times have been slack. We can't use a rental rates formula because so many rents are based off mortgages taken out pre-2007. It's a complete mess.

murphaph

nesf wrote: »

The problem is the German property market has been fairly stable over the past decade whereas ours hasn't. If you're in an area which has seen very, very little property sales in the past two or three years, how exactly does the Government (or you, to be fair) value the property? We can't use property values from the boom obviously and property sales of recent times have been slack. We can't use a rental rates formula because so many rents are based off mortgages taken out pre-2007. It's a complete mess.

Germany doesn't try to be all things to all men or bullsh!t people with a fake value based tax. They know how many m² my flat is and they know where it is. They use that to determine my tax using a simple multiplier. They don't care what the actual market value is from year to year. They change the multiplier every 5 years I think.

Ireland should have probably opted for this solution for at least a decade or so and should be collecting useful accurate data from NOW (how many bedrooms, how many bathrooms, how many m², what BER, etc.) so they can implement their valuation based tax when the data is available to do so, not before like now.

I wouldn't be surprised if we still didn't even have a post code system in a decade though.

nesf

murphaph wrote: »

Germany doesn't try to be all things to all men or bullsh!t people with a fake value based tax. They know how many m² my flat is and they know where it is. They use that to determine my tax using a simple multiplier. They don't care what the actual market value is from year to year. They change the multiplier every 5 years I think.

Ireland should have probably opted for this solution for at least a decade or so and should be collecting useful accurate data from NOW (how many bedrooms, how many bathrooms, how many m², what BER, etc.) so they can implement their valuation based tax when the data is available to do so, not before like now.

I wouldn't be surprised if we still didn't even have a post code system in a decade though.

I don't disagree, I think an actual property value tax is nonsense. The thing is we don't have a database of housing giving us details on each home (we should, but such a thing would require years of work). So a German system, even though I think it would be far preferable, would not work here.

murphaph

nesf wrote: »

I don't disagree, I think an actual property value tax is nonsense. The thing is we don't have a database of housing giving us details on each home (we should, but such a thing would require years of work). So a German system, even though I think it would be far preferable, would not work here.

But it would be MUCH more difficult to play the system. You measure the m² of your house and submit that to Revenue. It'd be a lot more difficult to cheat that.

Revenue could then use their average value from 2011/2012/2013 and get an average value per m² and just multiply that by your given size.

Come an audit, you wouldn't be showing clippings of auctioneers ads etc, but the measuring tape would come out.

Maura74

Deleted User wrote: »

I didn't expect it to be anywhere near perfect but in my locality it's ridiculous. I'm on the edge of one price band and the one next to me is a higher one, despite it being composed almost entirely of a council estate.
You say it's a guide for the area, based on average prices, I'd like to know where they're getting the data from, maybe not everything has been put on the house price register.:rolleyes:

I expect it is from Google maps.

robertxxx

How the hell can you distinguish between the paler shades of orange.

Total muppets can they do anything f'ing right.

Gumbo

robertxxx wrote: »

How the hell can you distinguish between the paler shades of orange.

Total muppets can they do anything f'ing right.

You don't need to.
Just click the map where your house is and it automatically tells you what range your house is in and the average price for your area.

Whose the total muppet now

robertxxx

kceire wrote: »

You don't need to.
Just click the map where your house is and it automatically tells you what range your house is in and the average price for your area.

Whose the total muppet now

I blame this ipad mini.

Enda benny and Co. will always be lying muppets.

robertxxx

So we have to pay this tax once agreed on for the next 5 years.

In this time can I get a tax refund if and when property prices go down.

EG; in 3 years time my house could be less than 150k and I'm paying this rip off tax on a house that was 185k.

Show me the money.

God save the queen.

flutered

there has been no house sold in my area in the last 10 years, my shack has been in existence since pre 1900, i am going to have some arguement with the revenue over its value.

Kristopherus

murphaph wrote: »

But it would be MUCH more difficult to play the system. You measure the m² of your house and submit that to Revenue. It'd be a lot more difficult to cheat that.

Revenue could then use their average value from 2011/2012/2013 and get an average value per m² and just multiply that by your given size.

Come an audit, you wouldn't be showing clippings of auctioneers ads etc, but the measuring tape would come out.

Murphaph, has your tax increased over the years?

Gumbo

robertxxx wrote: »

So we have to pay this tax once agreed on for the next 5 years.

In this time can I get a tax refund if and when property prices go down.

EG; in 3 years time my house could be less than 150k and I'm paying this rip off tax on a house that was 185k.

Show me the money.

God save the queen.

It's a two way street. Will you pay the extra tax if your house goes up in value

robertxxx

kceire wrote: »

It's a two way street. Will you pay the extra tax if your house goes up in value

Ha ha your gas, prices going up!. Are you a TD trying to big up this fg/labour suicide tax.

Bullseye1

I'd use the Irish Property Register only it doesn't seem to have specific details such as detached/sem-detached..., number of bedrooms etc so its not easy to compare property types in areas. It just gives a list of properties sold from 2011. In saying that it would be easy enough to put together ajar of 4-5 properties of similar type which have sold for less than Revenues value. The collector general mentioned on radio that is perfectly fine as a method of valuing. She did recommend that those who's houses were worth over a million should have them professionally valued LOL.

robertxxx

Where does my paye go?

Where?

€900 per f'ing month!

U can understand how politicians get shot in the USA.

Trhiggy83

Ridiculous system, some serious headaches for revenue ahead .... god bless them

NIMAN

Happy enough with mine.

robertxxx

NIMAN wrote: »

Happy enough with mine.

Your happy in paying this rip off tax?

NIMAN

No, I am happy that they have valued my house fairly accurately.

Of course I would prefer not to pay this 'rip off' tax, but I am a realist and know that the country is bust and needs to raise revenue in many ways. Its painful for many but most taxes would be classed as 'rip off' by most people. People don't like paying taxes.

Technique

robertxxx wrote: »

U can understand how politicians get shot in the USA.

Too far

amacca

kceire wrote: »

You don't need to.
Just click the map where your house is and it automatically tells you what range your house is in and the average price for your area.

Whose the total muppet now

He has a point.....different shades of brown/orange that are hard to distinguish between is a strange decision

Didn't anyone creating this sit down and try to use it....surely seven different colours for the seven different bands would have been a more sensible thing to do

clicking/option clicking on it while viewing it in safari does not get it to automatically tell me what range my house is in so I have to rely on my "opinion"

Cookie_Monster

kceire wrote: »

In fairness guys, what did ye expect? An individual price break down for every property in the country?
.

Yep. As has been said Germany does it. NZ does it also, every section, site or property has a government value used to determine rates and it's updated for every property once every three years. It really cannot be that hard.

touts

It seems they just took a very broad sweep to estimate the value of a house. For example all bungalows built before 2000 in an electoral area seem to be valued the same. It doesn't matter if it is a two bed ramshackle cottage from the 1800s or a 6 bed nice modern house from 1999. They both seem to get the same valuation. Same for a 4 bed semi-d with converted garage in a nice upmarket estate built in 2006 and a small pokey 2 up 2 down semi-d in a council estate down the road. Again they both get the same value.

It appears that Revenue has done the most basic possible analysis of home valuations. OK they haven't had a lot of time to do the work but I would say they spent more time designing the website than coming up with the valuations. It seems that it is largely up to the home owner to determine their own valuation and the revenue guideline is almost useless.

Also looking at the form there is no place to enter your valuation (unless you are over €1M) You just enter the band you fall into. Nor have they requested any information on things like extensions, number of rooms, square feet, site size, condition inside and out, heating, number of bathrooms etc etc. These are the sort of things that distinguish one house from another and set the valuations.

I would say this year is simply about getting people to pay the tax. It doesn't matter how much they pay. Just paying is progress from the disaster that last year's flat rate tax became. Then they will modify the form over the next three years to gather as much information on each house as possible and to develop the algorathms in the system to come up with a valuation more customised to your house.

murphaph

Kristopherus wrote: »

Murphaph, has your tax increased over the years?

Not since I bought in 2007.

murphaph

Bullseye1 wrote: »

In saying that it would be easy enough to put together ajar of 4-5 properties of similar type which have sold for less than Revenues value. The collector general mentioned on radio that is perfectly fine as a method of valuing. She did recommend that those who's houses were worth over a million should have them professionally valued LOL.

myhome.ie has a nice tool for doing just this. That's what I'll be using.

antoobrien

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd like to know where they're getting the data from, maybe not everything has been put on the house price register.:rolleyes:

It's averages, largely based on sales figures from the property price register. That means that there will be discrepancies, just take a look at the Howth Road in Dublin. The detached houses on the road are selling for in excess of 750k, where the estate houses are selling for lower figures.

For areas where there ware few/no sales, it appears that they have just taken the national average dwelling price and applied it across the board.

n97 mini

I think if this system has the value of your house right it's more of a coincidence.

Can anyone find a house outside Dublin worth more than 400k?