Local Property Tax Goes Live

mariaalice

Remember its just a GUIDE you have to value your own house yourself using resources such as the property price register etc, along with the guide.

antoobrien

n97 mini wrote: »

I think if this system has the value of your house right it's more of a coincidence.

Can anyone find a house outside Dublin worth more than 400k?

It's not hard if you know where to look. There's dozens of them in Galway city, try searching for Salthill or Taylors Hill on the PPR, not that the average valuation in the area reflects those values.

Edit - 60 properties in Galway on daft with an asking price of more than 400k.

nesf

n97 mini wrote: »

Can anyone find a house outside Dublin worth more than 400k?

Eh, ever looked at property outside of Dublin before?

10 pages worth of said houses in Cork from Daft: Quite a few detached houses around Rochestown and Douglas approaching the 1m mark never mind 400k.

If you broaden the search to include all of Cork some very nice houses in Cobh and similar start showing up.

Yes, compared to certain parts of Dublin even Cork's poshest areas are cheap but there are still houses going for silly money around here.

professore

murphaph wrote: »

But it would be MUCH more difficult to play the system. You measure the m² of your house and submit that to Revenue. It'd be a lot more difficult to cheat that.

Revenue could then use their average value from 2011/2012/2013 and get an average value per m² and just multiply that by your given size.

Come an audit, you wouldn't be showing clippings of auctioneers ads etc, but the measuring tape would come out.

What about 2/3/4 story houses? What about houses in areas where tiny houses are worth 500K? You would be unable to play the system, but people in wealthy areas would get off very lightly with that system.

professore

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Yep. As has been said Germany does it. NZ does it also, every section, site or property has a government value used to determine rates and it's updated for every property once every three years. It really cannot be that hard.

Right. So everyone would prefer a flat system based on square footage. I guess you all live in urban Dublin in that case. I actually think they have done a good job in the short time allotted, and they also allow for as you said ramshackle shacks and 10 bed McMansions to have different valuations since the owners can self assess. Once it's off the ground they can go after the McMansion brigade for under declaration.

professore

Personally I would be more in favour of the local corporation or county councils setting rates based on what revenue they need. OF course if a councillor was spending money like a drunken sailor he wouldn't get re-elected, and people would focus more on getting them to think twice before wasting money.

nesf

professore wrote: »

Personally I would be more in favour of the local corporation or county councils setting rates based on what revenue they need. OF course if a councillor was spending money like a drunken sailor he wouldn't get re-elected, and people would focus more on getting them to think twice before wasting money.

People might actually start caring about local elections. It'd be madness.

n97 mini

nesf wrote: »

Eh, ever looked at property outside of Dublin before?

10 pages worth of said houses in Cork from Daft: Quite a few detached houses around Rochestown and Douglas approaching the 1m mark never mind 400k.

If you broaden the search to include all of Cork some very nice houses in Cobh and similar start showing up.

Yes, compared to certain parts of Dublin even Cork's poshest areas are cheap but there are still houses going for silly money around here.

Thread title.

Have you found any properties on that worth 400k+ outside Dublin?

nesf

n97 mini wrote: »

Thread title.

Have you found any properties on that worth 400k+ outside Dublin?

Eh, you said "Can anyone find a house outside Dublin worth more than 400k?"

You should have been more clear. I didn't find any banding in Cork over 400k average when I gave a quick look. I didn't check Galway or elsewhere.

jimmynokia

kceire wrote: »

Use your own valuations then guys, Jesus, do his want everything handed to ya. Did the boom make the nation lazy or just a bunch of grumpy old farts?

You seem to favor this tax.Well judging buy your posts.ITS A FCUKING JOKE!
I paid my stamp duty like anyone else here that has bought a house,why should we pay again?
We have a right to be grumpy,every day they fcuking introduce a new tax,are you a broadcasting tax advocate too?

Oh and read this are you going to knock on bonos door http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/property-tax-why-bono-may-end-up-paying-just-517-tax-on-his-lavish-25m-mansion-29122448.html and say hey man your not paying enough,cause the revenues website on LPT is utter sh1Te and a half baked,RUSHED and if you have not notice the colour scheme for the bands is colored like SH1TE.
They could of used other colors rather than 50 shades of SH1TE ..

Its not the issue of handing things to people its the issue of them been lazy and incompetent as you may have noticed i aint the only one to complain about the revenues cheap lazy effort here http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/revenue-at-fault-as-confusion-grows-on-home-tax-29121319.html

antoobrien

jimmynokia wrote: »

You seem to favor this tax.Well judging buy your posts.ITS A FCUKING JOKE!
I paid my stamp duty like anyone else here that has bought a house,why should we pay again?

Because stamp duty is a transaction tax, not a property tax.

Nickindublin

Live in a 1 bed. They have the price down as between 150 and 200k. Asking price for 1 bed in apt block is 99k and they are getting between 80 and 90k according to price register index. I will be putting my apt at 95k and they will be getting 45 euro.

antoobrien

Nickindublin wrote: »

Live in a 1 bed. They have the price down as between 150 and 200k. Asking price for 1 bed in apt block is 99k and they are getting between 80 and 90k according to price register index. I will be putting my apt at 95k and they will be getting 45 euro.

The estimate is a guide not a bill. If you can show that apartments are going in the area for less than 100k then good for you.

jimmynokia

antoobrien wrote: »

Because stamp duty is a transaction tax, not a property tax.

WRONG.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=stamp%20duty%20explained&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CD4QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.daft.ie%2Fcontent%2Fstampduty.daft&ei=WSQ-Ub3yIYK57AbupYDIBA&usg=AFQjCNFnMyZk9UeeowRGPvbUw5xFddUsCw&bvm=bv.43287494,d.ZGU

barneystinson

jimmynokia wrote: »

WRONG.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=stamp%20duty%20explained&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CD4QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.daft.ie%2Fcontent%2Fstampduty.daft&ei=WSQ-Ub3yIYK57AbupYDIBA&usg=AFQjCNFnMyZk9UeeowRGPvbUw5xFddUsCw&bvm=bv.43287494,d.ZGU

Hilarious! Your link proves him right. Or maybe you have a different understanding of the word transaction?!

MaxFlower

amacca wrote: »

He has a point.....different shades of brown/orange that are hard to distinguish between is a strange decision

Didn't anyone creating this sit down and try to use it....surely seven different colours for the seven different bands would have been a more sensible thing to do

clicking/option clicking on it while viewing it in safari does not get it to automatically tell me what range my house is in so I have to rely on my "opinion"

Its been style over substance for a good few years in this country. Big bold colours just 'wouldn't look right'.

jimmynokia

barneystinson wrote: »

Hilarious! Your link proves him right. Or maybe you have a different understanding of the word transaction?!

Its still a tax on the property same difference.

nesf

jimmynokia wrote: »

WRONG.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=stamp%20duty%20explained&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CD4QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.daft.ie%2Fcontent%2Fstampduty.daft&ei=WSQ-Ub3yIYK57AbupYDIBA&usg=AFQjCNFnMyZk9UeeowRGPvbUw5xFddUsCw&bvm=bv.43287494,d.ZGU

A property tax is a very specific thing, it is a levy charged on owning a property.

A transaction tax is also a very specific thing, it is a tax levied on a transaction of some specific kind.

Both Stamp Duty and the LPT (Local Property Tax) are taxes on property, no doubt about that, but only the latter is what would be called a property tax. Stamp Duty was never a tax on owning a property, it was a tax on buying a property.

MaxFlower

antoobrien wrote: »

Because stamp duty is a transaction tax, not a property tax.

Why do we get into these arguments all the time? Its the same with motor and road tax in the motors forum. The government just chucks it down the same bottomless pit anyway.

jimmynokia

nesf wrote: »

A property tax is a very specific thing, it is a levy charged on owning a property.

A transaction tax is also a very specific thing, it is a tax levied on a transaction of some specific kind.

Both Stamp Duty and the LPT (Local Property Tax) are taxes on property, no doubt about that, but only the latter is what would be called a property tax. Stamp Duty was never a tax on owning a property, it was a tax on buying a property.

Which all i was suggesting thanks for that...just annoyed like many others

antoobrien

MaxFlower wrote: »

Why do we get into these arguments all the time? Its the same with motor and road tax in the motors forum. The government just chucks it down the same bottomless pit anyway.

It's down to a fundamental misunderstanding of the purposes of the taxes involved.

Motor tax is only levied on motor vehicles which are to be used on the public roads (hence the practice of declaring them off the road to dodge it). In that respect it is a road tax, however it is not specifically used to fund roads - which is the major bugbear of many people (myself included). A minimum of 33% of motor tax is to be used for the purposes of road maintenance, the rest of it is used for local services. Contrary to popular mythology it is not a general tax, rather a tax gathered by the dept of environment on behalf of the LAs (similar to PRSI & the former health levy).

Stamp duty on the other hand is charged on transactions, property transactions are just one class of transactions where it is charged. There are also charges levied against cheques, document transfers and other transactions. The perception that it is a property tax arises because of the amount of money involved, however it's no more a property tax than the advance fees for taking out cash on credit cards or the duty on cheques.

n97 mini

nesf wrote: »

Stamp Duty was never a tax on owning a property, it was a tax on buying a property.

It's a levy or tax on documents. Stamp Duty applies to many things that don't involve property, including for example court documents. E.g. anyone taking out grant of probate has to pay stamp duty.

nesf

n97 mini wrote: »

It's a levy or tax on documents. Stamp Duty applies to many things that don't involve property, including for example court documents. E.g. anyone taking out grant of probate has to pay stamp duty.

I know, but in the context of this thread if someone says Stamp Duty they're not referring to the general category of taxes but the property specific one.

KELTICKNIGHTT

according to revenues so called guide , my place is over priced by 65k and as no property has sold in my area for 8 years or more , its going to be hard

antoobrien

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

according to revenues so called guide , my place is over priced by 65k and as no property has sold in my area for 8 years or more , its going to be hard

Insurance valuation?

Gumbo

antoobrien wrote: »

Insurance valuation?

Insurance valuation is only the rebuild cost. It has no bearing on the market value so the OP may have to come up with a valuation himself or get a professional valuation.

Gumbo

jimmynokia wrote: »

You seem to favor this tax.Well judging buy your posts.ITS A FCUKING JOKE!
I paid my stamp duty like anyone else here that has bought a house,why should we pay again?
We have a right to be grumpy,every day they fcuking introduce a new tax,are you a broadcasting tax advocate too?

Oh and read this are you going to knock on bonos door http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/property-tax-why-bono-may-end-up-paying-just-517-tax-on-his-lavish-25m-mansion-29122448.html and say hey man your not paying enough,cause the revenues website on LPT is utter sh1Te and a half baked,RUSHED and if you have not notice the colour scheme for the bands is colored like SH1TE.
They could of used other colors rather than 50 shades of SH1TE ..

Its not the issue of handing things to people its the issue of them been lazy and incompetent as you may have noticed i aint the only one to complain about the revenues cheap lazy effort here http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/revenue-at-fault-as-confusion-grows-on-home-tax-29121319.html

Cant believe people are up in arms over a guide.
We all knew it was going to be a guide, and we all knew that we would have to value our properties ourselves.

The newspaper report is lazy, yes Bono's pad is located is a specific zone but the law states you must declare your homes value properly yourself, so Bono will have to declare his valuation.

Jez people use the guide, if you think your house is worth 300k, but then using the guide shows the average selling price in your area is 100k, then you know your living in cookoo land with your valuation.

antoobrien

kceire wrote: »

Cant believe people are up in arms over a guide.
We all knew it was going to be a guide, and we all knew that we would have to value our properties ourselves.

I think the problem is that people were expecting valuations not a guide. Just listen to the twit of an auctioneer talking about it on RTE last night as if they were valuations, when he should know damn well that they were not.

I suspect there is a lot of valid worries about people with obviously over valued houses vs the guide estimates will just state that the houses are value x and hope to get away with it.

The cynic in me says that part of the indignation we are seeing is that people are realising that they won't have a big bad wolf to blame for the value that is put on the property.

NIMAN

Look this tax was never going to go down well, but I do feel that sometimes we can over react. Personally I think we got off lightly for now, although who knows what it may increase to in future years.

I own a 4 bed detached house with fairly large grounds. My property tax is €225, or approx £195.

My widowed mother in NI who is over 70 lives in a 4 bed semi and her rates are £1200 per year. For that she gets her bins emptied, her street sweeped maybe every 6 months and local services like leisure centres which she never uses and a heavily subsidised airport which she has used about twice in 15yrs.

I can imagine the uproar if we were hit with rates like that in Ireland.

If the property tax has to be paid, then I am glad I'm being asked to pay €225 and not €1k every year.

n97 mini

antoobrien wrote: »

I think the problem is that people were expecting valuations not a guide..

I think people were expecting something better than the wishy-washy "guide" that they got, especially after all the hype.... We heard the Revenue was taking into account all sorts of things, including proximity to services, and had employed the services of economists in tricky cases.

From what I can see they spent more (taxpayers') money on the fancy website and map licence from the OSI than they did on the actual underlying data.

Does anyone know how much that website actually cost us?

antoobrien

n97 mini wrote: »

I think people were expecting something better than the wishy-washy "guide" that they got, especially after all the hype.... We heard the Revenue was taking into account all sorts of things, including proximity to services, and had employed the services of economists in tricky cases.

This is the problem, we "heard" a lot of things from a lot of spoofers, but revenue were not releasing much.

It was fairly evident early on however that numbers of rooms and that kind of thing was not feasible because of the lack of uniform information.

Btw the best guide to "proximity to services" is price. They used to say that proximity to dart in Dublin increases the prices 10k-20k every 100m closer to a station a property is located.

n97 mini wrote: »

From what I can see they spent more (taxpayers') money on the fancy website and map licence from the OSI than they did on the actual underlying data.

Does anyone know how much that website actually cost us?

In 2010 "– Utilities and government bodies" (not including LAs) paid 11.5m, so I'd imagine that one of those could be used at little/no extra cost.

The website is nothing special - especially considering several government departments already do something similar with OSI data. The trickiest bit will have been collating and translating price data into something the GIS systems could read and map. This is the reason that the broad electoral areas were used, as they already had those maps available. And this is something that the CSO do with census data, so again nothing particularly tough, just time consuming.

If they had tried to use neighbourhoods, or even go to street level it would have taken a lot more time & money to produce this guide.

KELTICKNIGHTT

antoobrien wrote: »

Insurance valuation?

no, i see if i can get a deal on valuer to give current price but that cost me money so i see what options i have

sean200

NIMAN wrote: »

Look this tax was never going to go down well, but I do feel that sometimes we can over react. Personally I think we got off lightly for now, although who knows what it may increase to in future years.

I own a 4 bed detached house with fairly large grounds. My property tax is €225, or approx £195.

My widowed mother in NI who is over 70 lives in a 4 bed semi and her rates are £1200 per year. For that she gets her bins emptied, her street sweeped maybe every 6 months and local services like leisure centres which she never uses and a heavily subsidised airport which she has used about twice in 15yrs.

I can imagine the uproar if we were hit with rates like that in Ireland.

If the property tax has to be paid, then I am glad I'm being asked to pay €225 and not €1k every year.

This is just the implementation of the tax and this is the best way to get most people to pay it.
But in 2016 when ye have just returned this government then you will see the true meaning of a property tax
I believe then then every house owner will have to get a valuation done on their house and then the reality of a property tax will become clear

Carpenter

So if your house is worth 250k----300k what will I owe :mad:

n97 mini

Carpenter wrote: »

So if your house is worth 250k----300k what will I owe :mad:

If my house is worth 250k-300k you won't owe anything!

Carpenter

n97 mini wrote: »

If my house is worth 250k-300k you won't owe anything!

What Funny

Gumbo

Carpenter wrote: »

What Funny

All the bands are in the OP and here - www.revenue.ie

€225,000 X 0.18%= your due rate

RoverZT

kceire wrote: »

All the bands are in the OP and here - www.revenue.ie

€225,000 X 0.18%= your due rate

Only 400 euro, that's not bad.As long as it doesn't increase every year.

Carpenter

Thank you

carpejugulum

Shades of orange ... who even comes up with such an idea, let alone approves it?
Looks like it was designed by the same people who coded it.

20Cent

Daft have made their own property tax calculator

http://www.daft.ie/property-tax/

The Daft one is giving me a lower valuation than the revenue one. Its in a lower band.
So do I go with the lower one or have to get it valued by an estate agent?


thanks

Bullseye1

20Cent wrote: »

Daft have made their own property tax calculator

http://www.daft.ie/property-tax/

The Daft one is giving me a lower valuation than the revenue one. Its in a lower band.
So do I go with the lower one or have to get it valued by an estate agent?


thanks

Your best bet is to find similar properties which have sold in the past couple of years in your area which best match your property type. Print them out and include them in your return.

Mr Cumulonimbus

20Cent wrote: »

Daft have made their own property tax calculator

http://www.daft.ie/property-tax/

The Daft one is giving me a lower valuation than the revenue one. Its in a lower band.
So do I go with the lower one or have to get it valued by an estate agent?


thanks

After using this too. 2 bed apartment in Dundalk, 2 bedrooms, one bathroom. Valued at €64,000! Yet the letter from Revenue I got today gave a value of €100,001-150,000. Think I know which band I'll be using..........

Gumbo

Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »

After using this too. 2 bed apartment in Dundalk, 2 bedrooms, one bathroom. Valued at €64,000! Yet the letter from Revenue I got today gave a value of €100,001-150,000. Think I know which band I'll be using..........

The letter from revenue is the average selling price in your area, NOT a valuation of YOUR property.

You base your value on information that you can source for your home. Previous properties for sale, property price index etc etc

Mr Cumulonimbus

kceire wrote: »

The letter from revenue is the average selling price in your area, NOT a valuation of YOUR property.

You base your value on information that you can source for your home. Previous properties for sale, property price index etc etc

Yip, did plenty of looking on daft, myhome etc. Most properties of my type on sale from roughly 65k up to 95k, so I think the lowest band will suit me.

Gumbo

Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »

Yip, did plenty of looking on daft, myhome etc. Most properties of my type on sale from roughly 65k up to 95k, so I think the lowest band will suit me.

Print them out, save a screen shot etc as this will your proof of price.
Also make sure to double check at the end of April as the price you declare has to be valid on the 1st May IIRC.

NIMAN

The DAFT calculator puts my house in the next bracket up.
I thnik the value from Revenue is more realistic tbh.

efb

Put through mine to be paid in June

osprey

We are a group of ordinary people, who have undertaken to travel the length & breadth of the country to educate people on how to defeat the Property Tax & HHC. Through knowledge of the law and collective strength, we will succeed. We have dubbed this series of talks "The NO Property Tax Tour" or the NOPe Tour for short. The NOPe Tour is designed to inform and educate the People of the Island on and about the legal and lawful aspects of the Household Charge and the Property Tax; and why you DON'T HAVE TO PAY.

Despite what the bar-room experts and the so called legal eagles say; the Household Charge and the Property Tax is Illegal, Unlawful and Unconstitutional, and does NOT have to be paid, unless you consciously consent/agree to paying it.

It is NOT Mandatory to Declare or to Pay for the Household Charge or the Property Tax. Anyone that says anything to the contrary is either a legal imbecile, or a liar or both.

The NOPe Tour is for ALL the people of Ireland that want and wish to find out the truth about these Taxes, and are prepared to take a stand legally, lawfully and peacefully.This is simply about sharing information and getting legally educated.

[MOD]This is (a) spam; (b) advertising; (c) purported legal advice; (d) advocating illegal actions; and (e) insulting. Under the circumstances, it's impossible not to respond with a ban, however interested people may be in debating it.[/MOD]

ardmacha

Despite what the bar-room experts and the so called legal eagles say; the Household Charge and the Property Tax is Illegal, Unlawful and Unconstitutional, and does NOT have to be paid, unless you consciously consent/agree to paying it.

B0ll1x. Rates existed for decades under the Irish constitution and there was nothing unconstitutional about a property tax. So called legal eagles in the Supreme Court might well have the more valid opinion.