Grass Measuring

eddiej

bob charles wrote: »

Im not saying he done anything wrong, just that it is far from cheap energy and you needed a patient contractor especially if making small amount of bales and allot of acres. How come you didnt leave till today and stick it in the pit?

Also made some bales last week on surplus paddocks 24 bales on a little over 5 acres reason don't wait for pit is paddocks will fall out of rotation and will have big hole in wedge next time round thes bales really are a bonus and its the grass management you are focussing on only doing grass measure for four years now and would never have trusted this before but live by wedges now and if you pick up an extra 40-60 bales a year how bad

delaval

eddiej wrote: »

Also made some bales last week on surplus paddocks 24 bales on a little over 5 acres reason don't wait for pit is paddocks will fall out of rotation and will have big hole in wedge next time round thes bales really are a bonus and its the grass management you are focussing on only doing grass measure for four years now and would never have trusted this before but live by wedges now and if you pick up an extra 40-60 bales a year how bad

Bob thinks a wedge is a ball of cash:D:D

delaval

bob charles wrote: »

ah I have you, wagon would only work here on hourly rate as usually only doing light cuts so it can work out very cheap per ac. Im shifting to having the silage contract grown and delivered

We used to get 50% of our silage delivered by contract 'till we secured more land recently. Post 2015 we will go back to it when we will have milking cows only on all farms and young stock contract reared:):)

delaval

bob charles wrote: »

I wouldnt be overstocked if the grass grew, then again I wouldnt have as many cattle on hands if the grass grew for everyone else either. I only own 25% of land farmed and there is no suitable land for rent so kinda stuck doing what im doing.
With beef animals you just can drop in and out of grazing like dairy cows. Our grazing period this year for a forward beef animal is going to be under 100 days (20May to 1st September) after this point performance will drop like a lead balloon. its mostly store cattle that graze most of my grass

Costs just bug me unfortunately

If you were grass budgeting and gave your paddocks a chance you might have grass. Some guys spread cattle over all their farm and wonder why they have no grass, anyhow I'm off to mow 20 acres now

bob charles

delaval wrote: »

If you were grass budgeting and gave your paddocks a chance you might have grass. Some guys spread cattle over all their farm and wonder why they have no grass, anyhow I'm off to mow 20 acres now

Agreed, but the deficient is so large I wouldn't be at much, I have only about twice the number of fields and paddocks as groups of animals grazing (big grazing groups dont work well with beef cattle IMV so biggest group is 30, ideally 20) so my rotation is at max 14 days and buffer up and down depending on growth.

As I see it allot of the intensive farmers are growing in numbers but cant access land so the only other option is to make use of there cattle housing all year around. with stupid land rents, concrete farming becomes viable but you need to be on top of your game with feed costs. one has to be 100% thankful to EU and regulations for allowing such a situation to develop where farms cant access land even thought the most of it is basically lying ideal locally

Blue Holland

bob charles wrote: »

(big grazing groups dont work well with beef cattle IMV so biggest group is 30, ideally 20)

I'd agree with ya there, had group of 65 400-500kg steers last summer, no matter how good d grass was they were still uneasy, soon as split them in 2 groups not a bother on them.

just do it

bob charles wrote: »

Agreed, but the deficient is so large I wouldn't be at much, I have only about twice the number of fields and paddocks as groups of animals grazing (big grazing groups dont work well with beef cattle IMV so biggest group is 30, ideally 20) so my rotation is at max 14 days and buffer up and down depending on growth.

Am I reading this right? You've two paddocks per grazing group and you rotate the group between these paddocks?

bob charles

just do it wrote: »

Am I reading this right? You've two paddocks per grazing group and you rotate the group between these paddocks?

if I was taking an average yes, but they would be moving around numerous fields/paddocks

just do it

bob charles wrote: »

if I was taking an average yes, but they would be moving around numerous fields/paddocks

Your fields don't get much rest!

just do it

So a few observations in no particular order from a newbie to grass management

• there isn't much of a difference between 5cm and 10cm!
• 10cm seems a low cover to move cows into
• probably grazing down to 2-3cm
• alternately where grass cover is too high, stock aren't cleaning out paddocks trampling a lot of the grass into the ground
• regrowth is much slower in paddocks where high covers are grazed down bare
• moving over to grass measurement & management takes a certain leap of faith
• taking surpluses with light yields doesn't suit everyone - all my work is contracted out thus making it expensive (need to look into this e.g. a handy mower for a 165!)
• I'm grazing covers that are too high. Haven't gotten to stage of kg DM/ha yet but grass height in some paddocks is 20-25cm
• It hasn't been possible to enter some of these paddocks without causing poaching in the period between Sept12-May13
• New section of farm road put in on Friday will help greatly with paddocks all now leading back to shed.
• This will allow better management during wet periods. Out by day and in by night has worked well for me. Would love to try 2 periods of 3hr grazing but the job that pays doesn't allow for that. (Oh, and also I try to spend as much time as possible with the kids so the minimum of farming is done between 7am and 8pm - personal choice but the farm will still be here when the kids are gone).
• Alot of my grazing ground isn't suitable for mowing (humps and bumps, stones, wet patches)
• 2 paddocks that Jan calves had access to for Spring are now producing greater yields of better quality grass
• Rearing a batch of calves each year (as a suckler herd its an option for replacements) would allow better utilisation of wetter fields. I've one 5ac bog field in mind that has deep peat which grows great grass but gets poached by dung bettles!
• despite a low yield, I'm going to harvest silage as soon as N is used up. I got a bumper yield last summer with 1 cut in August but then spent a fortune supplementing it as it lacked quality. It looked good but condition started falling off calved cows. First ever silage analysis results on this farm showed why.
• need to visit a farm operating it (have one in mind) to get a real feel for it
• grass is our natural advantage in this country, but like a lot of farmers I'm not currently taking advantage of that fact. (my farm income is supporting jobs in the contracting and feedmill sectors, but not improving my bank balance!)

And a word of thanks to deleval for joining the farming forum and for indirectly putting it up to us who aren't farming our land to its best potential (and to bob for being the devil's advocate;))

just do it

Jeez got a shock there, I thought I'd lost the post above by clicking the back button before it had travelled through cyberspace to appear on the thread:eek:

Nothing like writing your thoughts down. I've been mulling over this for a good while but putting finger to keyboard consolidates your thoughts.

Username John

Thanks for posting Just_do_it.

I am following how you go with interest. I like the idea of grass measuring, the science of it... trying to get the most out of the grass...

This may seem like a arse-y question, but I don't mean it to be, I am just am not sure...
What is your measure of success?

I mean, when you get to the Autumn, and you look back - how will you know if grass measuring helped things?
Maybe you weigh your stock? Or maybe it will be the silage analysis results? Or maybe it will be that you make more higher quality silage (acres not necessarily number of bales)

I am not trying to dishearten you or anything... I am just interested to know...

Thanks.

Muckit

Very interesting observations like Just do it.
What were your silage results like do you mind me asking?

just do it

Got to go to work lads, will reply later

delaval

A few pics to illustrate importance of taking out high covers and what happens next.
1 paddock baled 6 days ago egg insulator in foreground.

2&3 for people unsure about measurement. I would call this paddock 250-300 (+/-50). I will post a pic next week if I remember. I think it may help!

whelan1

had cows in a paddock for second grazing yesterday, was a good bit left on it, lad said to me will you move them to a new paddock at dinner time? Does anyone do this? never really heard of it before

delaval

whelan1 wrote: »

had cows in a paddock for second grazing yesterday, was a good bit left on it, lad said to me will you move them to a new paddock at dinner time? Does anyone do this? never really heard of it before

We move to new paddock when ever they are finished. Often let them in for 1 hour and then moved. For instance cows were moved at 2 pm yesterday and brought in for milking at 3.30

freedominacup

whelan1 wrote: »

had cows in a paddock for second grazing yesterday, was a good bit left on it, lad said to me will you move them to a new paddock at dinner time? Does anyone do this? never really heard of it before

Hate doing it. Always feel it unsettles them too much but have often done it esp if grass is tight.

De do you ever let them into a restricted area in the fresh paddock first then put them back on the one not fully grazed out after a couple of hours? At least they've gotten a fresh bite and may be a bit less unsettled cleaning out the remainder of the unfinished paddock.

mf240

freedominacup wrote: »

Hate doing it. Always feel it unsettles them too much but have often done it esp if grass is tight.

De do you ever let them into a restricted area in the fresh paddock first then put them back on the one not fully grazed out after a couple of hours? At least they've gotten a fresh bite and may be a bit less unsettled cleaning out the remainder of the unfinished paddock.

When you know that the last grazing will be tight in a paddock.

Fence a small area off at the bottom, say 10 % of paddock then let them have their 2 or 3 grazings as usual then on the final grazing give them the bit at bottom it will settle them.

Moving cows at 2 pm and milking at 3 30 is sub clinical OCD.

freedominacup

mf240 wrote: »

When you know that the last grazing will be tight in a paddock.

Fence a small area off at the bottom, say 10 % of paddock then let them have their 2 or 3 grazings as usual then on the final grazing give them the bit at bottom it will settle them.

Moving cows at 2 pm and milking at 3 30 is sub clinical OCD.

I agree and say the same thing to myself anytime I end up doing it.

blue5000

whelan1 wrote: »

had cows in a paddock for second grazing yesterday, was a good bit left on it, lad said to me will you move them to a new paddock at dinner time? Does anyone do this? never really heard of it before

Used to do it for milk recording;) Grass has it's highest sugar content in the afternoon on a (sunny?) day. This means that cows are taking in a higher amount of energy in every mouthful compared to wet fresh grass in the morning.

Blue Holland

blue5000 wrote: »

Used to do it for milk recording;) Grass has it's highest sugar content in the afternoon on a (sunny?) day. This means that cows are taking in a higher amount of energy in every mouthful compared to wet fresh grass in the morning.

Wouldn't agree with treating cows different for milk recording, only fooling yourself.

Blue Holland

whelan1 wrote: »

had cows in a paddock for second grazing yesterday, was a good bit left on it, lad said to me will you move them to a new paddock at dinner time? Does anyone do this? never really heard of it before

Would often let them in for few hours then moved but try avoid it.

blue5000

Blue Holland wrote: »

Wouldn't agree with treating cows different for milk recording, only fooling yourself.

The FRS supplied milk meters were giving 10% more milk than was in the bulk tank, so it was all a load of bu11sh1t anyway.

whelan1

Blue Holland wrote: »

Wouldn't agree with treating cows different for milk recording, only fooling yourself.

yup, guy in our group had a massive difference in litres delivered per cow and milk recording results, he said i was feeding alot to calves, over 1000 litres per cow on 110 cows;)

Tipp Man

mf240 wrote: »

When you know that the last grazing will be tight in a paddock.

Fence a small area off at the bottom, say 10 % of paddock then let them have their 2 or 3 grazings as usual then on the final grazing give them the bit at bottom it will settle them.

Moving cows at 2 pm and milking at 3 30 is sub clinical OCD.

Agreed - moving cows for an hour and a half in the afternoon is pure madness in my opinion

PatQfarmer

delaval wrote: »

A few pics to illustrate importance of taking out high covers and what happens next.
1 paddock baled 6 days ago egg insulator in foreground.

2&3 for people unsure about measurement. I would call this paddock 250-300 (+/-50). I will post a pic next week if I remember. I think it may help!

Did you get a chance to post pics, delaval?
First few fine days I'll be knocking paddocks skipped on 3rd round, would love to compare.

bob charles

delaval wrote: »

We move to new paddock when ever they are finished. Often let them in for 1 hour and then moved. For instance cows were moved at 2 pm yesterday and brought in for milking at 3.30

considering everyone said it was OCD, I would disagree. why oh why

take yourself and heading out for a decent bit of grub, you have the starter and main course and are as full as a bingo bus by the time of your last fork of mash. :D you litterly ready to calve and if no one was around you would be thinking of throwing yourself down to relax. On rocks the desert trolley and all of a sudden you manage to find a bit more room to pack in another 500 cal's. I will assure you cows will do the exact same. try it for a couple of days each week and I bet you there will be a ltr or two extra per cow in the tank

Timmaay

Have done it afew times myself, moving the cows in the afternoon as such is a lovely distraction and excuse to get up from the desk and leave the college work for afew minutes I probably wouldn't be bothering otherwise I'll admit, certainly not on a wkend etc.

Anyways, looks as if I went slightly too far with this whole silage making business, and the grass measuring has told me just what I was thinking while looking at the feilds the other day, I've managed to get myself into a grass deficit, AFC on the feilds still in rotation is only 400kg/ha, or 140 per cow. One field we reseeded in april is still out also, which wouldn't be helping. I take it the course of action I need to take is get the covers off the strong paddocks set for short term silage (at about 2000kg now), and put them back into rotation.

delaval

Sub clinical OCD, brilliant

My wife calls it Anal when I go out a 10pm to move cows…batt latch has sorted it.

delaval

PatQfarmer wrote: »

Did you get a chance to post pics, delaval?
First few fine days I'll be knocking paddocks skipped on 3rd round, would love to compare.

I emailed to Just Do It prob with our office connection. I am usually able to do with phone

delaval

PatQfarmer wrote: »

Did you get a chance to post pics, delaval?
First few fine days I'll be knocking paddocks skipped on 3rd round, would love to compare.

Try again

PatQfarmer

delaval wrote: »

Try again

Thanks! Great regrowth!
My wellie would measure that as 400+, so might need re-calibration:D

delaval

PatQfarmer wrote: »

Thanks! Great regrowth!
My wellie would measure that as 400+, so might need re-calibration:D

You know what they say about big feet?











Big boots

just do it

delaval wrote: »

A few pics to illustrate importance of taking out high covers and what happens next.

1 paddock baled 6 days ago egg insulator in foreground.


Photos 2&3 for people unsure about measurement. I would call this paddock 250-300 (+/-50). I will post a pic next week if I remember. I think it may help!

Finally

just do it

Username John wrote: »

Thanks for posting Just_do_it.

I am following how you go with interest. I like the idea of grass measuring, the science of it... trying to get the most out of the grass...

This may seem like a arse-y question, but I don't mean it to be, I am just am not sure...
What is your measure of success?

I mean, when you get to the Autumn, and you look back - how will you know if grass measuring helped things?
Maybe you weigh your stock? Or maybe it will be the silage analysis results? Or maybe it will be that you make more higher quality silage (acres not necessarily number of bales)

I am not trying to dishearten you or anything... I am just interested to know...

Thanks.

Good questions, and in fairness to you you've given the answers. What started me off on this? I weighed weanlings last Autumn and was shocked at what poor ADG they had. The bad summer could only be blamed for some of it. Then I analysed the silage around Feb when I noticed cows losing condition post calving and it measured poorly. Because of both those measurables I've upped the meal and taking the hit in the short term. My conclusion is the level of feed involved isn't sustainable and needs to be replaced with quality grass.

So measures of success. My thoughts first turned to the silage field beside the shed. Before considering reseeding I've had a soil sample taken before any application of slurry or fertilizer this spring and it has two wet patches needing drainage. You'd have seen photos earlier in the year of a new trench I opened which has worked out great relieving trapped water that had no where to go. When I took back the place 5 years ago the silage yield was really low due to poor soil pH. Lime sorted that, and the soil sample proves it. I've grazed it prudently in early Spring and Autumn and now it's much improved. All going well, and budget allowing, I will reseed it post 2nd cut this Autumn.

Alot of the land is wet with peat topsoil. I'd reckon I'd break up the grazing areas and treat it as organic. This hasn't worked as grass yield is low and of poor quality. It also needs drainage so I'm in the middle of working on that. Finding the time is a big issue for me. However I'm going to get a lad to blanket spread 1bag CAN/ac to all the grazing ground in a few days when the all the ground can be travelled. (blanket spreading is something I picked up from a post by delaval a few weeks ago, before that I thought you should be going into each paddock directly after you've moved the cattle).

So the measurables:

• Silage quality this winter
• silage yield
• Visible improvement of grass quality on grazing block
• Improved ADG of weanlings (in gene ireland so will be weighing in the Autumn)
• Travelability on grazing block
• Evenness of grass growth, reduction of rushes, mosses and weeds etc
• Actually knowing how much grass I have rather than "ah sure I've plenty" and then the following day thinking "oh s**t, maybe I've no where near enough"

It's a bit of a long winded answer but it's because of measurables that I'm gettting a grasp on my weaknesses. The first few years were taken up fencing, topping grossly overgrown fields, and improving stock quality and fertility. FFS, when I started back farming there wasn't even a shed to house the cattle in for the winter! So much to do and so little time:rolleyes:

just do it

Muckit wrote: »

Very interesting observations like Just do it.
What were your silage results like do you mind me asking?

Here they are:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83455913&postcount=58

just do it

delaval wrote: »

A few pics to illustrate importance of taking out high covers and what happens next.
1 paddock baled 6 days ago egg insulator in foreground.

Photos 2&3 for people unsure about measurement. I would call this paddock 250-300 (+/-50). I will post a pic next week if I remember. I think it may help!

These just show how far away from quality paddocks some of us are. My grass is no where near as thick or evenly growing as this. When I went out measuring in a recently grassed paddock with some regrowth depending where I stood these are the results:
- 2/3cm, bare with no regrowth
- 5/6 cm, patchy regrowth, light green grass, no where near as thick as in these photos
- 15cm ungrazed/ lightly grazed grass
- 45-75cm, rushes

Delaval - what height are you calling the grass in the photos?

delaval

just do it wrote: »

Good questions, and in fairness to you you've given the answers. What started me off on this? I weighed weanlings last Autumn and was shocked at what poor ADG they had. The bad summer could only be blamed for some of it. Then I analysed the silage around Feb when I noticed cows losing condition post calving and it measured poorly. Because of both those measurables I've upped the meal and taking the hit in the short term. My conclusion is the level of feed involved isn't sustainable and needs to be replaced with quality grass.

So measures of success. My thoughts first turned to the silage field beside the shed. Before considering reseeding I've had a soil sample taken before any application of slurry or fertilizer this spring and it has two wet patches needing drainage. You'd have seen photos earlier in the year of a new trench I opened which has worked out great relieving trapped water that had no where to go. When I took back the place 5 years ago the silage yield was really low due to poor soil pH. Lime sorted that, and the soil sample proves it. I've grazed it prudently in early Spring and Autumn and now it's much improved. All going well, and budget allowing, I will reseed it post 2nd cut this Autumn.

Alot of the land is wet with peat topsoil. I'd reckon I'd break up the grazing areas and treat it as organic. This hasn't worked as grass yield is low and of poor quality. It also needs drainage so I'm in the middle of working on that. Finding the time is a big issue for me. However I'm going to get a lad to blanket spread 1bag CAN/ac to all the grazing ground in a few days when the all the ground can be travelled. (blanket spreading is something I picked up from a post by delaval a few weeks ago, before that I thought you should be going into each paddock directly after you've moved the cattle).


So the measurables:

• Silage quality this winter
• silage yield
• Visible improvement of grass quality on grazing block
• Improved ADG of weanlings (in gene ireland so will be weighing in the Autumn)
• Travelability on grazing block
• Evenness of grass growth, reduction of rushes, mosses and weeds etc
• Actually knowing how much grass I have rather than "ah sure I've plenty" and then the following day thinking "oh s**t, maybe I've no where near enough"

It's a bit of a long winded answer but it's because of measurables that I'm gettting a grasp on my weaknesses. The first few years were taken up fencing, topping grossly overgrown fields, and improving stock quality and fertility. FFS, when I started back farming there wasn't even a shed to house the cattle in for the winter! So much to do and so little time:rolleyes:

J D it,
I don't know how to transfer this post to the new to dairying, but they should read this and forget all the talk of milking parours. You really have got it. Measure the measurables and you gain control.

You will find in time that attention to your soil and grass management will increase the amount of cash available for capital projects.

Blanket spread and I would reconsider CAN as it is the most expensive form of N. In fact I don't know why they bother making it as we are probably the only Euro country using it extensivly. I would suggest that you get out 20 units of sulphur with your next spreading lots of N products available with N+s ie. ASN or Sulphate of amonia. People think wetter land doesn't need S all land needs it IMO

just do it

delaval wrote: »

I don't know how to transfer this post

Click reply and then copy what appears. Reply on the other thread and paste in what you've copied;)

Blanket spread and I would reconsider CAN as it is the most expensive form of N. In fact I don't know why they bother making it as we are probably the only Euro country using it extensivly. I would suggest that you get out 20 units of sulphur with your next spreading lots of N products available with N+s ie. ASN or Sulphate of amonia. People think wetter land doesn't need S all land needs it IMO

I've a ton of CAN so that will go out. Pray tell a bit more about S?!

Username John

just do it wrote: »

Click reply and then copy what appears. Reply on the other thread and paste in what you've copied;)

I've a ton of CAN so that will go out. Pray tell a bit more about S?!

Is there a link between sulphur and the level of protein available in the grass?

bob charles

delaval wrote: »

You will find in time that attention to your soil and grass management will increase the amount of cash available for capital projects.

Blanket spread and I would reconsider CAN as it is the most expensive form of N. In fact I don't know why they bother making it as we are probably the only Euro country using it extensivly. I would suggest that you get out 20 units of sulphur with your next spreading lots of N products available with N+s ie. ASN or Sulphate of amonia. People think wetter land doesn't need S all land needs it IMO

your being misled, and contradicting in the statements above. AN is a very widely used N source through out Europe, Reason we dont use it highly is because 34.5% AN isnt available in Ireland as we had an auld habit of sticking it in bombs back in the days so its band here. AN has a major role to play in crop fertilisation and its price premium is well worth it in certain situations over Urea.

In relation to Sulphur, remember back to your chemistry days an S is a major component in the building blocks for protein creation. its one of the main reason I would always use SOP when applying fert for silage. again it costs a major price premium

Muckit

SOP?

mf240

Muckit wrote: »

SOP?

SulPhate of potash. Instead of muriet of potash.

What price bob and is potash level the same?

bob charles

mf240 wrote: »

SulPhate of potash. Instead of muriet of potash.

What price bob and is potash level the same?

SOP is 42% with MOP being 50%. I use MOP on beet as I need the chloride (sodium) parts of it for the beet. but its SOP for maize and grassland/silage. havnt being billed for this year but usually SOP is a nice bit dearer than MOP and also containing less K

Muckit

Is SOP 0-0-50 ? Seems a little would go along way unless you were very low in K. Or am I wrong?

Dampintheattic

bob charles wrote: »

SOP is 42% with MOP being 50%. I use MOP on beet as I need the chloride (sodium) parts of it for the beet. but its SOP for maize and grassland/silage. havnt being billed for this year but usually SOP is a nice bit dearer than MOP and also containing less K

I'm reading with interest. Cutting second crop silage this year. Haven't done so in yonks.
Old ley. Probably medium fertility. Haven't done soil sample. Will do after second cut.
Anyway I have plenty slurry to spread as soon as I get first cut done!
Recommend me what bagged stuff to spread, please!

D

delaval

Dampintheattic wrote: »

I'm reading with interest. Cutting second crop silage this year. Haven't done so in yonks.
Old ley. Probably medium fertility. Haven't done soil sample. Will do after second cut.
Anyway I have plenty slurry to spread as soon as I get first cut done!
Recommend me what bagged stuff to spread, please!

D

4x18-6-12
3xCutsward+S

Dampintheattic

delaval wrote: »

4x18-6-12
3xCutsward+S

Thanks! Is that not overkill on P&K, given ill be going with a dose of slurry?
Would too much of it come back into the yard in the bales?

delaval

Dampintheattic wrote: »

Thanks! Is that not overkill on P&K, given ill be going with a dose of slurry?
Would too much of it come back into the yard in the bales?

Silage removes a lot of P&k. I am basing this on the assumption that your soil is index 2 like 50% of the country. You won't know till you sample in the winter

A second cut needs 70 units N and why not take advantage of the terrific growth that's there at the moment