Question on a tenant not paying...

Sheep Shagger

Hi all,

Would appreciate some advice about a situation that unfortunately I find myself in, it’s quite long winded but in a nutshell…(Mods: if this is not forum please move/delete as you see fit).

Rented my apartment out to a married couple with a child towards the end of last year. They were in receipt of rental allowance, all references etc were fine and everything went well for the first few months.

They then separated with one of them plus the child staying in the apartment.

Filled out new SW paperwork with the tenant and was told there could be a delay with the next rent payment given the change of circumstances. Thought this sounded reasonable so was prepared to wait until SW paid the rent (with any lump sum being paid to me at once).

Missed payments at the end of November and December but was told everything should be fixed by mid January, started getting a bit suspicious towards the end of January when nothing arrived. Found out that some ‘unexpected expenses and part theft of cash’ occurred in Dec (Christmas) and the double rent cheque had been spent and not passed on to me. Stupidly at the time I didn’t ask them to continue to pay their portion of the rent (not covered by the State).

Feel foolish as although asking for SW to be paid to me directly when filling out the paperwork it never was…

Verbally agreed to allow the arrears to be paid off (would take 12 weeks) in additional to normal rent. That plan lasted about a month then received a call from a family member saying I was being unreasonable expecting the tenant to pay that kind of debt off (I didn’t come up with the figure to be paid off weekly but did agree to it), I was also accused of taking food out the child’s mouth and the tenant couldn’t afford to heat the place on her own. Not sure if its true but was also told that the double rent cheque was gambled.

The SW payment at the end of January was paid to the tenant, I got the bulk of it (part in cash and part as the start of the payment plan), at the end of February it arrived directly into my account. Rent as of now is now up to date but it’s the arrears that are outstanding.

Served a 14 rent arrears notice, received some money towards the debt but it was not cleared. Served a 28 day termination of notice (existing lease is less than 6 months old).

Have had a series of calls as tenant tries to resolve the situation (Money advisory people, local TDs office etc), the payment plan on the table now will see it take 12 months to have the arrears cleared (and that’s providing the tenant keeps their end of the bargain and nothing ‘unexpected’ comes up).

Am fully registered with the PRTB etc.

Has anyone been in a similar situation and if so what did you do? After being lied to many times when I tried to help the tenant out, am reluctant to accept this latest proposal, who knows if they will honor the arrangement in future. Seems they have money issues but are leaving it to the very last minute to get help.

I have a mortgage on the apartment and mortgage on family home, wife, kid etc to support so can't really support someone who can't pay their rent in full - don't think I'm being unreasonable to terminate the lease and just move on ?

djimi

Im going to sound cold hearted here but you need to get them out of your property; they sound like more hassle than they are worth. There is nothing to suggest that they will keep to this latest agreement; chances are you will continue on this merry dance until you look to get them evicted, which will probably take many months and cost you thousands. Not worth the hassle.

Have you withdrawn the 28 days termination notice? If not then Id stick to it.

And I would be looking to seek proper legal assistance; you need to follow every procedure to the letter, so its best not to leave anything to chance.

Sheep Shagger

Thanks - my thoughts are the same, the 28 day notice is still intact (still have a few weeks for that period to pass).

They could adhere to the arrears payment plan during the notice period (they did pay off a little last week after it had been served) but just unsure if that will continue.

Am starting to look at legal stuff should it be required (hopefully they just go), thought I might be being harsh but feel i've given them a number of chances.

fasttalkerchat

Its up to you but given the terrible personal circumstances it is understandable that they can't pay all bills right now but things should stabilise soon. If they have agreed to cover all arrears (eventually) it may be the better long term move to take them at their word.
Don't forget that if you evict them you will not get another penny from them from now onwards and will be paying mortgage on an empty property for an indeterminate amount of time.

monkeypants

Is it worthwhile letting Welfare know they've been issuing cheques that you haven't been receiving?

Sheep Shagger

Thanks for the responses.

Fasttalkerchar - I've given them a number of chances to fix the situation but have been lied to numerous times, the trust just doesn't exist anymore. Think I've given them more time than a lot of other landlords would.

Monkeypants - Yeah will look at that for sure.

MABS have now said they will refer the tenant to Threshold to prepare a defense as she paid some of the arrears off (not in full though), not quite show how someone can defend spending their SW rent cheque...

Does anyone know if I will hear from Threshold before the 28 days notice is up, I'm assuming an agency like that would not tell the tenant they can stay after D day (or maybe they do as heard they can be anti landlord)?

RATM

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Thanks for the responses.

Fasttalkerchar - I've given them a number of chances to fix the situation but have been lied to numerous times, the trust just doesn't exist anymore. Think I've given them more time than a lot of other landlords would.

Monkeypants - Yeah will look at that for sure.

MABS have now said they will refer the tenant to Threshold to prepare a defense as she paid some of the arrears off (not in full though), not quite show how someone can defend spending their SW rent cheque...

Does anyone know if I will hear from Threshold before the 28 days notice is up, I'm assuming an agency like that would not tell the tenant they can stay after D day (or maybe they do as heard they can be anti landlord)?

I'm not an expert on these things but that could be your problem right there- they may not have paid off the arrears as we due in the payment plan but by paying something it could put them in a favourable position if it comes to an eviction hearing. In other words in front of a judge you could be made out to be the bad guy in all this because they have made at least some attempt to clear their arrears. Despite all their previous lies to you the judge could take the view that you are being unreasonable, especially if their defence paints it as them being in financial trouble but doing their best to pay you off bit by bit, as frustrating as that is.

I'd tread carefully here OP as evictions are a difficult thing to secure. One option that might be open to you is to sit down with them and ask them to go to the Community Welfare Officer to ask for a one off payment to clear the arrears. If they show them the 28 day notice they may well pay up. Whether or not they then pass that on to you is another thing but it might be a way of resolving the situation without recourse to more harder methods.

Sheep Shagger

Thanks, I'm not sure how much lee way the CWO would give them considering they spent (or possibly gambled) a 2 month rent cheque.

Would the fact they stole money from the state (their rent cheque) not go against them ? They should have really gone to MABS back in December instead of stringing me along.

The lease has existed for less than 6 months, does that make any difference?

Gatling

As a tentant receiving RA I'm shamed to see other tenants cause so many problems for landlords ,in 4 years I've never been late or missed a payment is rather starve than leave the rent short ,
The CWO won't help at all considering the tent ant gambled 2 months rent ,as for the payment plan and family members getting involved its nobody else's business the tenant entered into the agreement you rent my property you pay to stay and been its seems there's gambling of rent money its going to happen again and again,

Leaving another landlord with the opinion of people on rent assistance are trouble and unreliable with rent , taring everybody else with the same brush

RATM

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Thanks, I'm not sure how much lee way the CWO would give them considering they spent (or possibly gambled) a 2 month rent cheque.

Would the fact they stole money from the state (their rent cheque) not go against them ? They should have really gone to MABS back in December instead of stringing me along.

The lease has existed for less than 6 months, does that make any difference?

Yeah for sure the CWO could tell them to take a hike. But they vary from area to area as we saw recently with the communion money fiasco- some CWO's were saying no outright to requests for money whereas others were signing cheques for €240.

No matter what option you take here all of them are unpalatable. I'm just suggessting that the least unpalatable one might be your best port of call because the other options involve eviction and it seems to me that tenants have a lot of rights where this is concerned.

I'm not sure about the ins and outs of a lease existing less than 6 months but there is likely something on the PRTB website about it.

Another option you could explore is to find a family member who is willing to rent the place from you. Then you can give notice on the lease on the basis a family member is going to be using it. I am not sure if there is a minimum period the family member is supposed to use it, there likely is so check this out. Then at the end of that period you can re-let it to the private market. Another thing to check out is the definition of 'family member' i.e. are nieces, cousins, etc regarded as family ? Or just daughters/sons?

I'm sure there are landlords out there who use this as a method to get tenants out and never actually rent it to a family member. Doing this would be a breach of the lease and could leave them open to a later case by the tenant. But at the same time the tenant themselves might have a hard time finding out if the person who replaces them is actually a family member or not.

It is an option that is open to you if you want to avoid the hassle of eviction which by the sounds of it can be a long drawn out process and if you don't follow the absolute letter of the law the end decision could go against you and then you'll be left with hostile tenants in situ, which is the worst case scenario IMO.

Sheep Shagger

Thanks, appreciate the response, agree nothing I do here is going to be nice. The arrears are in excess of a grand so not sure if a CWO would ever write a cheque for that much (surely the first question they would ask is why and what happened to the rent cheques in the first place that they are now being asked to cover).

The getting a family member to rent the place is not an option (there are catches to it though from what I have seen online when i've done a bit of research).

As the lease is less than six months old I was under the impression I don't actually have to give a reason for terminating the lease (although its pretty clear in this case why I am), the don't yet have part 4 rights.

This is causing me sleepless nights, issues at work as Im finding it hard to get any work done constantly thinking about it etc. . ahhhh!

Gatling - didn't want to to tar all people on RA with the same brush which is why I let this (then couple) in, am sad to say its left a very sour taste in my mouth.

Zamboni

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

As the lease is less than six months old I was under the impression I don't actually have to give a reason for terminating the lease (although its pretty clear in this case why I am), the don't yet have part 4 rights.

Did you sign a fixed term lease with the couple?

Sheep Shagger

Zamboni wrote: »

Did you sign a fixed term lease with the couple?

Lease is now in one name only - has a term of 9 months.

Even if part 4 does apply - non payment of rent is a breach?

Gatling

Hang one a second ,just noticed the tentats went from a couple with kid/s now she's on her own which means loan parent which also means the rent assistance she gets is also higher now so she's still in arrears while getting bigger cheques ,almost all of her rent paid for

Sheep Shagger

Gatling wrote: »

Hang one a second ,just noticed the tentats went from a couple with kid/s now she's on her own which means loan parent which also means the rent assistance she gets is also higher now so she's still in arrears while getting bigger cheques ,almost all of her rent paid for

Don't know what they were getting before they split as wasn't getting paid directly then but based on what SW paid me last month, she still needs to pay a bit towards the overall monthly rent figure.

No idea what other benefits she is entitled to as a single parent (that could be used to clear arrears).

Victor

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Lease is now in one name only - has a term of 9 months.

Hang on, did you sign a new lease with the mother only?

If she has been there less than 6 months total, Part 4 does not apply.

If you didn't, both are responsible for paying.

Even if part 4 does apply - non payment of rent is a breach?

Yes, it is a breach.

Sheep Shagger

Yep got a fresh lease signed (in her name only) less than 6 months ago.

Seeking legal advice tomorrow

the groutch

sounds like she's giving you the run around til it gets to 6 months, make it harder for you to evict her.
if the 28 days notice is still in effect, then enforce it.

StillWaters

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Yep got a fresh lease signed (in her name only) less than 6 months ago.

Seeking legal advice tomorrow

It's good that you are getting legal advice. Unfortunately you will need it, and it will be money well spent. She is ticking all the boxes in terms of going to MABS, Threshold, TD etc, and I'm sure she has a well practiced story. I wouldn't fight this one on my own.

Zulu

I've nothing to add OP except my good will. I really hope this gets resolved for you quickly. I feel for you.

yankinlk

the groutch wrote: »

sounds like she's giving you the run around til it gets to 6 months, make it harder for you to evict her.
if the 28 days notice is still in effect, then enforce it.

Agreed. You have been caught by a clever tenant. Write off the debt as yer own fault for not being strict, and giving away chances at the start, and show her the door. Easiest evictions are ones whereby the tenant thinks they have gotten one over on you. Let her off and replace her with a decent tenant.

I have never had a sleep less night and served many an eviction notice. I use it early on so that the tenant knows i give zero chances, and it 100% of the time has focused the tenants mind so that they somehow remember where that missing sw money went missing. I have never actually had to evict a tenant...

One more rule. Never ever ever believe a word out of your tenants mouth. Sorry but its true. You think that since you dont lie, they are the same as you. More fool you. ALL tenants lie, its just what they do. I have heard some serious doozies in my time. Do not listen, do not get emotional, its not your job to be a counsellor or an ear to listen to their stories.... Just serve the monthly bill, and when its short, serve the eviction notice. Then rest easy in yer bed.

djimi

If she has a fixed term lease for more than 6 months then the notion of being able to terminate the lease for any reason in the first 6 months under a part 4 does not apply. You will need to persue the non payment of rent if you wish to terminate the lease.

Sheep Shagger

Wise words all - thanks

Will keep the 28 day notice in force, and see what comes of the legal advice I'm getting.

Will let you know how I get on, really do appreciate the advice in this 'scary' time.

Zamboni

yankinlk wrote: »

Agreed. You have been caught by a clever tenant. Write off the debt as yer own fault for not being strict, and giving away chances at the start, and show her the door. Easiest evictions are ones whereby the tenant thinks they have gotten one over on you. Let her off and replace her with a decent tenant.

I have never had a sleep less night and served many an eviction notice. I use it early on so that the tenant knows i give zero chances, and it 100% of the time has focused the tenants mind so that they somehow remember where that missing sw money went missing. I have never actually had to evict a tenant...

One more rule. Never ever ever believe a word out of your tenants mouth. Sorry but its true. You think that since you dont lie, they are the same as you. More fool you. ALL tenants lie, its just what they do. I have heard some serious doozies in my time. Do not listen, do not get emotional, its not your job to be a counsellor or an ear to listen to their stories.... Just serve the monthly bill, and when its short, serve the eviction notice. Then rest easy in yer bed.

No need for this generic tarring.
I'd say the same if you replaced the word tenants with landlords.

yankinlk

Zamboni wrote: »

No need for this generic tarring.
I'd say the same if you replaced the word tenants with landlords.

You could say it, sure, but it wouldnt be true. A landlord does not have the opportunity to lie in the way a tenant does. I have to be truthful to my tenant , the tenant is so heavily protected with zero comeback. The smart tenant knows how much power they have and that simply having the neck to not pay and walking away .... They will never suffer any consequence.

In my experience i have never witnessed a tenant that told me the truth every month for all time, some are more truthful but none are 100% truthful.

Btw, once you know this fact, its really easy to handle tenants. Remove the emotion, there is only one truth, the money is in the mortgage account, or its not.

djimi

Bitter landlord much...? :rolleyes:

For every bad tenant out there there is an equally bad landlord. Cowboys who will promise the earth moon and stars to get you in the door and collect your money and then not give a toss about you once youre locked into a lease. We have all come across them. Its a fact of life; some people are just bad, it doesnt matter whether they are tenants, landlords or whatever.

Equally for every bad tenant and every bad landlord there are 100 that are perfectly fine and on the level. There is no need to try and tar all of each with the same brush.

the_syco

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

then received a call from a family member saying I was being unreasonable expecting the tenant to pay that kind of debt off (I didn’t come up with the figure to be paid off weekly but did agree to it), I was also accused of taking food out the child’s mouth and the tenant couldn’t afford to heat the place on her own. Not sure if its true but was also told that the double rent cheque was gambled.

Unless said family member is going to pay the rent, they can take a running jump. You're running a business, and if all they can come up with is emothional blackmail, IMO it's time to play hardball.

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Don't forget that if you evict them you will not get another penny from them from now onwards and will be paying mortgage on an empty property for an indeterminate amount of time.

It seems the OP is not getting much now for a property he can't let to someone who will pay, so they're in a worse off situation now.

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Have had a series of calls as tenant tries to resolve the situation (Money advisory people, local TDs office etc), the payment plan on the table now will see it take 12 months to have the arrears cleared (and that’s providing the tenant keeps their end of the bargain and nothing ‘unexpected’ comes up).

Ensure you make a record or what they've paid per week compared to what they owe you. Regarding the payment plan, IMO based on how little they've paid versus how much they owe, I don't think that they will stick to the plan.

yankinlk

djimi wrote: »

Bitter landlord much...? :rolleyes:

Far far far from it. Im a happy, well adjusted landlord, who is the most fair any tenant i have come across has met. When they rent from me, they stay 5 plus years. After they move, for whatever reason they are ringing me to come back, lol. I dont need a thumbs up from anyone to know im right, and i aint speaking to anyone, but the frustrated, worried and scared landlords, that have made all the worng mistakes, right from the beginning, and let tenants walk all over them.

djimi wrote: »

Cowboys who will promise the earth moon and stars to get you in the door and collect your money and then not give a toss about you once youre locked into a lease.

If you think any tenant is locked into a lease, then you sir have zero experience with the landlords viewpoint. Show me one lanlord that has won a case against a tenant that refuses to pay. And ill show you the multitudes that either cant afford to pursue, or simply know they will lose.

djimi wrote: »

Equally for every bad tenant and every bad landlord there are 100 that are perfectly fine and on the level. There is no need to try and tar all of each with the same brush.

If a landlord is reading this thread, then that landlord has indeed met a tenant that i speak of. 100%. Read every single landlord vs tenant thread on the internet and they all start with a broken promise by a tenant... That spirals into hassle and financial loss, and finally sleepless nights and worry for the ladlord. Only a landlord has sympathy for another, the rest of society thinks they are all exploiting the weak.

djimi

Good lord that is some bitter nonsense...

Like I said, for every bad tenant there are 100 good ones. Just like for every bad landlord there are 100 who are just fine. On the Internet you only ever hear from people when they have a problem. For all the horror stories you read online there are countless landlord/tenant relationships that are just perfect that you will never hear about.

To try and suggest that all tenants are liers is as wrong as it is to say that all landlords are cheating tax evading cowboys.

Sheep Shagger

Hi all,

There's clearly a difference of opinion in tenants v landlords, can we just park that for the moment please?

Received legal advice, press ahead with the 28 day notice period (which I'm doing). As predicted was told not to change the locks should she not leave!

Plan to call over to the apartment over the weekend for a look around (giving her 48 hours notice inviting her to be there at the time or if she prefers I'll let myself in). Will go with a family member to be on the safe side.

yankinlk

Sheep Shagger wrote: »

Received legal advice, press ahead with the 28 day notice period (which I'm doing). As predicted was told not to change the locks should she not leave!

I dont agree with calling over, as it will only add to your worry and potentially will have you listening (again) to her stories, and getting soft again.

I also dont agree to having someone with you. That will appear confrontational, and could make the situation worse, are you afraid of her for some reason?

Once you give the eviction notice, make the get out without fear of court case option very obvious for the tenant... Dont trap them in the apartment, make them an offer they cant refuse, even if that means you have to give back a deposit that you feel you are entitled to. Do you want to keep their deposit and have them worrying you for the next 6 months? Or do u want to replace her with a better paying tenant?