Wheelchair user refused entry to Dublin Nightclub.

Magenta

starlings wrote: »

Stardust was a shocking case. I don't really see what it has to do with wheelchair access and egress, since some fire doors were locked on that terrible night. If anything, it led to better awareness of safety regulations in nightclubs.

It's related if you're talking about physical obstructions to people leaving a burning nightclub.

skimpydoo

darced wrote: »

Yeah I know about the stardust tragedy but the rhode Island one is caught on camera and you can see about 20 people jammed in the doorway 12 inches from safety unable to move,they all burned to death in that doorway,no one would be carrying anyone out of there.

kidneyfan

Magenta wrote: »

It's related if you're talking about physical obstructions to people leaving a burning nightclub.

So the yong man in a wheelchair is not a human being but just a potential obstuction?:(

Magenta

kidneyfan wrote: »

So the yong man in a wheelchair is not a human being but just a potential obstuction?:(

If his wheelchair is obstructing others from leaving a burning building then what else would you call it? Leave the offended-for-the-sake-of-being-offended to the Facebook mob.

P_1

In a lot of cases like this information should always be provided.

For example, a bouncer turns someone away for not having the right 'look' for a venue. Just tell the punter, it might suck for the punter but they've been told why the bouncer won't let them in.

Similarly for a venue that can't cater for people in wheelchairs, just tell them that the venue can't cater for them and that's why they can't enter.

Should cut down on a lot of the aggro caused at doors around the country

skimpydoo

P_1 wrote: »

In a lot of cases like this information should always be provided.

For example, a bouncer turns someone away for not having the right 'look' for a venue. Just tell the punter, it might suck for the punter but they've been told why the bouncer won't let them in.

Similarly for a venue that can't cater for people in wheelchairs, just tell them that the venue can't cater for them and that's why they can't enter.

Should cut down on a lot of the aggro caused at doors around the country

Sometimes people can't take no for an answer.

P_1

Ronan Leonard wrote: »

Sometimes people can't take no for an answer.

That is sadly true. I may have been overestimating a lot of people's capacity to understand logic and common sense.

AlanD5734

Ronan Leonard wrote: »

Sometimes people can't take no for an answer.

Well it's the people who are wrong. They are not required to supply a reason for refusal. .
People should know the law but unfortunately ignorance is bliss

skimpydoo

P_1 wrote: »

That is sadly true. I may have been overestimating a lot of people's capacity to understand logic and common sense.

Waiting outside Madison for 45 minutes is his way of not taking no for an answer.

starlings

Magenta wrote: »

It's related if you're talking about physical obstructions to people leaving a burning nightclub.

in a panicked "stampede" situation, knocked-over chairs, stools, and every other person in the room is an obstruction.

No furniture can be left in front of a fire exit. If an able-bodied person took a stool or chair over in front of one, they'd be politely asked to move. As would a person in a wheelchair. When it comes to an evacuation in the case of a fire, we can only hope that people move calmly to the nearest exit and that staff will guide them. If the exits aren't blocked, and if people don't panic or run back to get their belongings, a person in a wheelchair, like anyone else, can be easily moved to safety.

hatrickpatrick

Ronan Leonard wrote: »

Sometimes people can't take no for an answer.

Sometimes they shouldn't. I didn't, the jerk is gone, the club apologized and I'm still a regular there now sometimes. Haven't had a single problem since that guy's gone, and I know from other people that I wasn't the only one who used to have problems with him.

If he had just explained why he was refusing I wouldn't have cared. He told me I'd been involved in an "incident" the previous week (when I hadn't in fact been in the country) and then refused to elaborate.

Some people are just bad tempered jerks and shouldn't be working in jobs in which they deal directly with customers.

Gatling

Don't agree with sacking the bouncer he done absolutely nothing wrong ,as previously stated the club reacted to the lynch mob ,there was no wheel chair access to the club he wasn't in my opinion discriminated against by the club or door man ,yes the club apologized and had the door man moved on or sacked according to some ,door staff aren't trained to lift people down stairs or upstairs to use toilets or what ever, I doubt insurance premiums would cover the door staff if they tripped and fell carrying disabled persons down or up stairs and if one or both parties got injured ,then what who's to blame when the employee or patron are suing

hatrickpatrick

AlanD5734 wrote: »

Well it's the people who are wrong. They are not required to supply a reason for refusal. .
People should know the law but unfortunately ignorance is bliss

Just because it's not the law doesn't mean it's not something you should do. If you don't want to then fine, but be prepared to deal with a potential social media storm.
A little politeness goes a long way, and if "mob justice" can cause these people to get some feckin' manners then I for one am all for it.

Magenta

starlings wrote: »

If the exits aren't blocked, and if people don't panic or run back to get their belongings, a person in a wheelchair, like anyone else, can be easily moved to safety.

But people DO panic. Especially drunk people in a dark nightclub that's up in flames.
You're talking about a pie-in-the-sky ideal situation which is unlikely to happen.

WoollyRedHat

kidneyfan wrote: »

So the yong man in a wheelchair is not a human being but just a potential obstuction?:(

Haha, how are you still posting on this thread? King of Wind-ups

You're a Declan Kidney fan too!

The Road Runner

Ronan Leonard wrote: »

Fcuk. That's one of the worst things i've ever seen. My hands are shaking here :(:(:(

Retrovertigo

Ronan Leonard wrote: »

Waiting outside Madison for 45 minutes is his way of not taking no for an answer.

I'd love to see the CCTV footage of what happened and and why it was necessary to wait 45 minutes outside after being refused.

starlings

Magenta wrote: »

But people DO panic. Especially drunk people in a dark nightclub that's up in flames.
You're talking about a pie-in-the-sky ideal situation which is unlikely to happen.

and when they do panic, there are staff in charge of guiding them, and in the ensuing panic, a wheelchair is not going to cause any more trouble than a barstool.

(I'm assuming here that our hypothetical person in the wheelchair has been taken out and helped to safety by a friend or stranger. Or am I being too idealistic?)

The issue here, imho, isn't what would happen to Graham Bolger if Madison had caught fire, but how he was going to get down and back up the stairs safely to do non-fire-related nightclub stuff.

skimpydoo

Retrovertigo wrote: »

I'd love to see the CCTV footage of what happened and and why it was necessary to wait 45 minutes outside after being refused.

Who said he waited maybe he did not want to leave and it would be harder to make a wheelchair user leave as it would look bad to passersby.

martingriff

I have not read the full thread yet but I would like to tell of my own experience. I am in a wheelchair and live in Limerick. There is a particular nightclub that has 2 a ground level and upstairs. Sometimes when I am out I might decide to go to the nightclub. Sometimes however only 1 floor maybe open which is normally the top floor and the bouncers will say not to night. Not because they are discriminating but because of health and safety not just of them but also of the person on the chair.

Imagine if they are half way up and slip the chair. I have fallen of a wheelchair going up 2 steps never mind a whole flight and that is bad enough. We have to get away from this notion that if somebody stops a wheelchair or anybody disabled of going somewhere it may because of safety. They may not say it as they might think the person might know. So ask if they don't.

Also they may stop a person due to a large crowd and they are afraid the person in the wheelchair might be crushed or knocked out of the chair.

I hope the person in the OP was stopped entry because of one of these and not been discriminating. I am now going to read the thread

CB19Kevo

What was the reason given for refusal.
It's possible that
> The venue was full.
> The venue cannot safely ensure the safety of wheelchair user due to large crowds.
> The venue does not have wheelchair access.
> The doorman believed he was drunk
> The doorman was being a d*ck.

All venue's should do there best to accomodate wheelchair user's and most do from what i have seen at least but they have to ensure health and safety of customers also.

darced

This post has been deleted.

Doom

All new buildings require wheelchair accessibility as part of the design, older buildings are not necessarily required to be wheelchair friendly..unless the building owner/ tenants wants to upgrade the building I think they have to consider it, protected buildings can be exempt if its impractical
Buildings built before 1 June 1992 do not have to comply

martingriff

Daveysil15 wrote: »

What was he planning on doing if he did get in?

I do hope this was meant as a joke. If not ya just ya. Not even going to respond past this

Kenny Logins

martingriff wrote: »

I do hope this was meant as a joke. If not ya just ya. Not even going to respond past this

This is After Hours, you will see some posts taking the piss. Just read on past them.

martingriff

Artful_Badger wrote: »

But nobody gives a fcuk when you and me are told to get lost or discriminated against. So we'd have to just take the usual complaints route and see what comes of it. This guy is in a wheelchair so he can avoid all that by posting a pic of himself looking dejected in a wheelchair on social media and whipping up an angry mob to force the nightclub into taking immediate action.

Easy there now it was not the guy in the wheelchair doing this but his mate. Do we know if the guy wanted him to go down the boards route or fb route.

martingriff

seanmacc wrote: »

If they carried him down the stairs there would be no problem if they invested in an evacuation chair. All wheelchair accessible buildings have to have them due to lifts not working in the case of fire. They are not expensive and require little training for staff to operate.

and how do they get him up. Evac chairs work great going down not up.

Was the ground really because he's in a wheelchair?

Wasn't there a law passed that any public service building (Would this include nightclub?) must have adequate access for wheelchairs?

People also need to stop with the 'just because he's in a wheelchair doesn't mean he should get special treatment' rubbish. It's the exact opposite, he's clearly being treated specially because he's in a wheelchair and would rather be treated like everybody else.

Also if you don't like the fact that he's gone public then just ignore it, no need for the hateful comments.

PogMoThoin

Deleted User wrote: »

Was the ground really because he's in a wheelchair?

Wasn't there a law passed that any public service building (Would this include nightclub?) must have adequate access for wheelchairs?

People also need to stop with the 'just because he's in a wheelchair doesn't mean he should get special treatment' rubbish. It's the exact opposite, he's clearly being treated specially because he's in a wheelchair and would rather be treated like everybody else.

Also if you don't like the fact that he's gone public then just ignore it, no need for the hateful comments.

It must be planned for where feasible. There are plenty of situations where it's not feasible to adapt a building for wheelchairs, like an inner city Georgian basement

Clandestine

I think the thing that annoys me most about this is that it seems that the gent in this story did not contact the nightclub the day after his ordeal to sort out his issues and instead went straight to facebook and co to vent. As a result, the typical mob mentality has took over and now no doubt this club as a whole will face consequences over what seems to be the fault of one individual.

Artful_Badger

martingriff wrote: »

Easy there now it was not the guy in the wheelchair doing this but his mate. Do we know if the guy wanted him to go down the boards route or fb route.

This all started with him posting the pic along with his version of events and accusations of being discriminated against on facebook as far I'm aware.

srm23

will be funny in future watching bouncers shiting themselves
when they see a wheelchairLAD rolling up to the door

martingriff

Artful_Badger wrote: »

This all started with him posting the pic along with his version of events and accusations of being discriminated against on facebook as far I'm aware.

I thought that was the same person who wrote the OP my bad

I Luv Crysis

Mayoman911 wrote: »

I think the thing that annoys me most about this is that it seems that the gent in this story did not contact the nightclub the day after his ordeal to sort out his issues and instead went straight to facebook and co to vent. As a result, the typical mob mentality has took over and now no doubt this club as a whole will face consequences over what seems to be the fault of one individual.

Really, that point hasn't been made already on this thread already

PogMoThoin

I Luv Crysis wrote: »

Really, that point hasn't been made already on this thread already

I think we're on lap 20

Clandestine

I Luv Crysis wrote: »

Really, that point hasn't been made already on this thread already

Thought I'd give my 2 cents after getting a general idea of the issue... I didn't feel like trawling through 40-50 odd pages to see if my views had already been made.

The Road Runner

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Right. Looking at the wiki after and the floor plan I was thinking, next time i'm in a venue i'll do this and i'll that and I know that will always stay with me when i'm out in future. Tbh i'm floored here. Trying to read threads and i'm not even registering the words. Really shook me bad. Enough of the net for one day. All the best to you

I Luv Crysis

Mayoman911 wrote: »

Thought I'd give my 2 cents after getting a general idea of the issue... I didn't feel like trawling through 40-50 odd pages to see if my views had already been made.

No problem, carry on. :pac:

Big Nasty

Retrovertigo wrote: »

I'd love to see the CCTV footage of what happened and and why it was necessary to wait 45 minutes outside after being refused.

It's a long time since I've been blanked from a club / pub but whenever it happened to me before I just walked away.The only time I remember hanging around after being refused was when I was about 16 with all my friends inside while I hung around hoping the door staff would take pity on me and eventually let me in as I was missing (in my own mind) the biggest night of the year. The lad in question is either seriously immature or out to prove a point, that point being that someone that is physically unable to enter / exit a premises under their own steam should be let in, which IMO they shouldn't for the reasons already mentioned, i.e. how they would get out in the event of fire, etc.

This guy has put a business in jeopardy and is already the cause of one unemployed person this evening and all for what? Because he didn't have enough cop on to know that he can't roll up / down a flight of stairs?

W@anker! :mad:

kidneyfan

srm23 wrote: »

will be funny in future watching bouncers shiting themselves
when they see a wheelchairLAD rolling up to the door

There is absolutely no need for doormen to be alarmed or for people in wheelchairs to be offended.

Let's just think it through
If you're in a wheelchair (because you need it for mobility) should you be allowed into nightclubs and bars?
I say yes
Should stairs be a reason for saying NO?
I say No.
Can door staff be trained in how to move wheelchair bound people up and down stairs?
I say yes
It is not appropriate to suggest that some attractive girls in high heels with nice round bottoms carry a man downstairs

What if the venue is just so small that a wheelchair is not practical
Get real that never happens and if so it would be highly dangerous for the non wheeled

What if the stairs are not suitable
The owner should find another venue, no shortage and might be a cool way to rehabilitate the large areas of Dublin with abandoned building projects

What if there is a fire
There's the problem really
Todays professionalised door staff might be willing to go into a burning nightclub to help people get out (think about it - the personality type)
They should not do this
Responsibility for getting out of a nightclub is the Fire Brigade and the wheelchair user and his companions

Legal clarity is needed on the last point
If the law says that wheelchair bound people have to be accomodated the risks must be made clear and the waivers that an earlier poster pointed out are not worth the paper they are written on have to be made so they can stand up


EARLIER I POSTED THAT I CAN SEE NO REASON FOR GRAHAM BOLGER TO LIE ABOUT THE EVENTS OR TO SEEK PUBLICITY

If there is some reason please PM me as I cannot figure it out from boards and I am not on facebook

orestes

Duck's hoop wrote: »

And Orestes, the one time wheelchair user, which now apparently is a licence to say you were there man, you weren't. It was always going to be temporary.

Actually, it wasn't. I had a cyst growing inside my left femur which eventually weakened the bone to the point that it disintigrated about 3 inches of my femur. It didn't break, it was simply gone, leaving a three inch gap in the bone. I had to have bone spliced out of my tibia and transplanted into my femur to form a bridge in the hope that enough it would regenerate enough to reform the bone to the point that it would be strong enough to eventually hold my weight (and even if it was, there was no guarantee it would even grow straight enough to be functional) while leaving enough of my tibia intact to regenerate. Even if the transplant took there was no way of knowing it would grow straight, so I could have ended up not only crippled but deformed to boot.

There was no guarantee I would ever walk again, it was quite the opposite, I was told I'd never walk again until somebody proposed a very drastic idea, and even then there was no guarantee it would work. The surgery was completely experimental with surgeons being flown in from the states to do it. There wasn't even a guarantee I'd survive the surgery, it was a one shot job and there was no way to know if I would come out of the anaesthetic due to the amount of time I would need to be put under for, so the surgeons were racing the clock to get the job done, if they got the timing wrong I wasn't coming back and if they pulled me out too early the only shot we had at trying the procedure was wasted. The only reason it even went ahead is that paperwork was signed to absolve the surgeons and hospital of any liability. The procedure is now in medical textbooks.

So no, it was never temporary. It was permenant, aside from a once off highly experimental surgery that could have killed me.

I said I was in a wheelchair for over two years. That doesn't include the months I spent lying in a bed with my leg bolted into place unable to move in case the transplant shattered or was caused to grow out of line, or the eventual years of rehab spent learning to walk again and not being able to do anything physical so that the transplant wasn't put under pressure that could cause it to break.

So, yes I was in a wheelchair for a couple if years, but there was no guarantee it was temporary, and after I was eventually able to walk again there was no guarantee that running for a bus couldn't put me right back in one for the rest of my life. I just got very lucky that myself and a group of surgeons took a massive gamble that paid off.

I know what people in wheelchairs go through, and I sympathise with them more than most people can imagine, to be honest when I see people in wheelchairs I often feel guilty that I'm not in one myself just because I got lucky. But being in a wheelchair doesn't give somebody the right to launch a campaign to get somebody fired because their feelings were hurt. One of the reasons that this incident has annoyed me so much is that I'm disgusted that somebody in a wheelchair would use it as a card to play in order to further such a selfish and bitter cause.

TL:DR - You're wrong, I'm just lucky.

Duck's hoop wrote: »

Orestes compared his not gaining access to this club to him not being able to play soccer. I find that petty and insulting.

I find it petty and insulting that you instantly dismiss the experiences of somebody who used to be in a wheelchair as irrelevant while discussing matters related to experiences of people confined to wheelchairs.

And I didn't compare not getting into this club to not being able to play soccer, I said that there are some places that people in wheelchairs can't go and some things that they can't do, and they include going up and down flights of stairs and playing soccer. This club just happens to fall under the list of places a person in a wheelchair can't go, along with many, many others.

srm23

kidneyfan wrote: »

There is absolutely no need for doormen to be alarmed or for people in wheelchairs to be offended.

Let's just think it through
If you're in a wheelchair (because you need it for mobility) should you be allowed into nightclubs and bars?
I say yes
Should stairs be a reason for saying NO?
I say No.
Can door staff be trained in how to move wheelchair bound people up and down stairs?
I say yes
It is not appropriate to suggest that some attractive girls in high heels with nice round bottoms carry a man downstairs

What if the venue is just so small that a wheelchair is not practical
Get real that never happens and if so it would be highly dangerous for the non wheeled

What if the stairs are not suitable
The owner should find another venue, no shortage and might be a cool way to rehabilitate the large areas of Dublin with abandoned building projects

What if there is a fire
There's the problem really
Todays professionalised door staff might be willing to go into a burning nightclub to help people get out (think about it - the personality type)
They should not do this
Responsibility for getting out of a nightclub is the Fire Brigade and the wheelchair user and his companions

Legal clarity is needed on the last point
If the law says that wheelchair bound people have to be accomodated the risks must be made clear and the waivers that an earlier poster pointed out are not worth the paper they are written on have to be made so they can stand up


EARLIER I POSTED THAT I CAN SEE NO REASON FOR GRAHAM BOLGER TO LIE ABOUT THE EVENTS OR TO SEEK PUBLICITY

If there is some reason please PM me as I cannot figure it out from boards and I am not on facebook

cheers Graham, see you at Madison this weekend.

Duck's hoop

orestes wrote: »

So, yes I was in a wheelchair for a couple if years, but there was no guarantee it was temporary, and after I was eventually able to walk again there was no guarantee that running for a bus couldn't put me right back in one for the rest of my life. I just got very lucky that myself and a group of surgeons took a massive gamble that paid off.

TL:DR - You're wrong, I'm just lucky.



I find it petty and insulting that you instantly dismiss the experiences of somebody who used to be in a wheelchair as irrelevant while discussing matters related to experiences of people confined to wheelchairs.

And I didn't compare not getting into this club to not being able to play soccer, I said that there are some places that people in wheelchairs can't go and some things that they can't do, and they include going up and down flights of stairs and playing soccer. This club just happens to fall under the list of places a person in a wheelchair can't go, along with many, many others.

Spent months in hospital, months in bed and months in rehab, have lots of metalwork in my back, and using a chair for 13 years. There is pretty much not any place I and many other chair users can't get to if we want to, despite your insistence to the contrary.

Flights of stairs aren't like a insurmountable barrier to chair users. If I needed everything flat, cambered or ramped I'd basically just stay at home. It's known as adapting to your situation and surroundings. But first you've to be allowed in.

Madam_X

Wouldn't the first step be to facilitate the wheelchair user? Until then, is it even possible to grant them admission?

starlings

Duck's hoop wrote: »

Spent months in hospital, months in bed and months in rehab, have lots of metalwork in my back, and using a chair for 13 years. There is pretty much not any place I and many other chair users can't get to if we want to, despite your insistence to the contrary.

Flights of stairs aren't like a insurmountable barrier to chair users. If I needed everything flat, cambered or ramped I'd basically just stay at home. It's known as adapting to your situation and surroundings. But first you've to be allowed in.

what if being allowed in demands that others adapt the surroundings for you?

orestes

Duck's hoop wrote: »

Spent months in hospital, months in bed and months in rehab, have lots of metalwork in my back, and using a chair for 13 years. There is pretty much not any place I and many other chair users can't get to if we want to, despite your insistence to the contrary.

Flights of stairs aren't like a insurmountable barrier to chair users. If I needed everything flat, cambered or ramped I'd basically just stay at home. It's known as adapting to your situation and surroundings. But first you've to be allowed in.

I didn't say you can't get to them, I said you can't go to them. It's not a matter of ability, it's a matter of pragmatism, as I said earlier in this thread.

Dublinstiofán

I cant believe the facebook ****e ive seen over this and another 50 pages here.

It usually goes like this:

Guy standing at the front of the queue- Hi
Bouncer - Not tonight in those runners you gob****e

Guy sitting at the front of the queue in a wheelchair - Hi
Bouncer - Not tonight in those runners you gob****e

The end, unless your the gob****e in runners.

Dublinstiofán

I cant believe the facebook ****e ive seen over this and another 50 pages here.

It usually goes like this:

Guy standing at the front of the queue- Hi
Bouncer - Not tonight in those runners you gob****e

Guy sitting at the front of the queue in a wheelchair - Hi
Bouncer - Not tonight in those runners you gob****e

The end, unless your the gob****e in runners.

Duck's hoop

starlings wrote: »

what if being allowed in demands that others adapt the surroundings for you?

Not sure I understand? I'm taking the OP at face value and assuming he was turned away based solely on the fact he was in a chair. Not that there were stairs.

I've been all over North Africa and Eastern Europe and there's not too many places where things are 'wheelchair accessible'. But you still have to get out.

Mongfinder General

Madam_X wrote: »

Wouldn't the first step be to facilitate the wheelchair user? Until then, is it even possible to grant them admission?

Are you having a laugh with the above statement?:rolleyes: