Wheelchair user refused entry to Dublin Nightclub.

Grayson

Cienciano wrote: »

All the bouncers got a crowd around him to point and laugh cos he's in a wheelchair.


No one disagrees, but there's plenty of buildings where it's not reasonable.
Even public buildings dont have to provide access if it's not reasonable.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0014/sec0025.html#sec25

Here's exceptions for a premisis that supplies services to a public body:

Now, that's access to governemt offices. I'd say private business has even less strict regulations.

Best post so far. I always like to see facts in any kind of discussion like this.

monkeypants

Cienciano wrote: »

All the bouncers got a crowd around him to point and laugh cos he's in a wheelchair.

They performed a riverdance number as well, just to rub it in.

Ush1

Who's gonna start the campaign to get the doorman his job back??:pac:

steddyeddy

srm23 wrote: »

saw him walking down Grafton street last week not a bother on him.

Please tell me that's not true?

hatrickpatrick

suicide_circus wrote: »

There 's no justice like angry mob justice.

Dont know why the management didnt delete and turn off public comments on their FB page and then investigate properly.

Incidently, why did Wilde close?

Another Dublin nightclub did that last summer and the ensuing boycott resulted in its going into receivership within a month.
Of course, in that case the issue was exacerbated by the club writing in its own name "F*ck off you mangey knacker" in response to one of the complaints

Fratton Fred

Gyalist wrote: »

I have been there. I have businesses in the area and when we were refurbishing them I worked with my architect and engineers and it was not possible to make the basements wheelchair accessible.

But you considered it still. That is the point.

Hoop66

Grayson wrote: »

Best post so far. I always like to see facts in any kind of discussion like this.

Facts? FACTS?! You can prove anything with facts.

Fratton Fred

Grayson wrote: »

Best post so far. I always like to see facts in any kind of discussion like this.

Exactly. It is all about reasonableness. A business cant just arbitrarily decide it won't have any form of disabled access. Your points about the fire brigade were daft, because firemen climb ladders, it is part of a job description and someone in a wheelchair couldn't physically do it.

Cienciano

Grayson wrote: »

Best post so far. I always like to see facts in any kind of discussion like this.

There's a section on heritage sites. It even says this:

Access to heritage sites.
29.—(1) (a) The head of a public body shall, as far as practicable, ensure that the whole or a part of a heritage site in its ownership, management or control to which the public has access is accessible to persons with disabilities and can be visited by them with ease and dignity.

Now, I'm guessing "dignity" here means not being carried down stairs. That's ok in an emergency sitation, but not day to day access.

kunst nugget

Gyalist wrote: »

Should, for example, the fortune-tellers on South William Street be reasonably expected to fit disabled access to basement premises?

They were okay, they were able to predict that they wouldn't have any wheelchair users as customers so the council let them away with it.

frank reynolds

Fratton Fred wrote: »

But you considered it still. That is the point.

so did the nightclub in question. They wouldnt be allowed to operate/open the business to the public without having been thoroughly checked by different departments of the local authority (in this case it would be DCC).

they probably have the same situation - where it was deemed unnecessary to have a ramp in such an awkwardly shaped premises.

there are MANY nightclubs in Dublin (and i'm sure all over the country) which are in basements and i wouldnt be far off the mark to say that MOST of them do not have wheelchair access.

there are however, MANY other nightclubs and bars which DO, so i cant understand why they didnt go somewhere else.

it's not illegal what the nightclub did. just makes them look bad because of one persons dissagreement with a bouncer.

seems that it was more the "friends" of the guy in the wheelchair that they were refusing - for getting aggressive at the suggestion that THEY would have to do the heavy lifting. so shame on THEM.

Grayson

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Exactly. It is all about reasonableness. A business cant just arbitrarily decide it won't have any form of disabled access. Your points about the fire brigade were daft, because firemen climb ladders, it is part of a job description and someone in a wheelchair couldn't physically do it.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

But you considered it still. That is the point.

but in the second post you're saying they never considered it. Or are you saying you don't think they did.

do you have any reason to suspect they didn't. Or any evidence to suggest that it was possible but they didn't bother?

See, all the evidence points to a premises that has access down a massive, steep flight of stairs. and the same up to the bathrooms. Lifts aren't possible since they would go up into another business that's closed at that point. ramps aren't possible since the steps are steep and it would probably take up half the stairway.

If you can give any information to suggest this, then you have a point. But all the evidence supports the club (regarding making it accessible).

Kloecor

monkeypants wrote: »

Punished? Not gaining access to a nightclub is punishment now?

Well if I was in a wheelchair and that happened to me in front of friends I'd be quite embarrassed and I'm sure I'd go home feeling pretty crappy about the whole thing. And it was only because he was in a wheelchair. Not for being overly drunk, or being aggressive etc. I'm just putting myself in his shoes

Gatling

OK lets say the chap in person kicked up such a fuss the door men carried him down the stairs and he feel out of the chair or one one the or a bouncer tripped and feel would he be taking legal action too,

If you know somewhere isn't accessible to you why force the issue and take to Facebook or twitter making it out somebody was actually wronged ,trial by social network is plain wrong where the facts are rarely put across

Vojera

Kloecor wrote: »

And it was only because he was in a wheelchair. Not for being overly drunk, or being aggressive etc.

According to him and his friends. How do we know that's true? We're only getting one side.

Stercus Accidit

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Exactly. It is all about reasonableness. A business cant just arbitrarily decide it won't have any form of disabled access. Your points about the fire brigade were daft, because firemen climb ladders, it is part of a job description and someone in a wheelchair couldn't physically do it.

You haven't a clue what you are talking about, your estimate of a '€50 million' budget is absolutely hilarious.

In a change of use of a premises which is what happened at this venue, reasonable provisions have to be made to accommodate wheelchair users etc. You don't get to arbitrarily decide what planning remits you follow, all architectural and engineering drawings are submitted to the local council for appraisal at the planning stage. Special consideration is given to accessibility and fire compliance.
Dublin City Council also decided that there was not a need for a lift in this premises, it probably fell under one of a few exceptions, likely due to being infeasible.
I know this because when we were drafting the planning drawings for a city centre change of use for a premises into a nightclub we had to have fire corridors and a lift. If the Madison did not have a lift installed they must have had a very good logistical reason not to do so, it was probably unreasonable to install one and DCC agreed.

WoollyRedHat

ScumLord wrote: »

I wonder would you accept responsibility? With mounting medical bills depending on the injury and the fact you can sue the establishment and more than likely win you'd really pay the thousands the injury might end up costing you?

Experiments have shown that most people will do all kinds of unspeakable acts if their ordered to do so.

I don't know about this particular guy but the only reason there are wheelchair accessible buses is because wheelchair users kicked up a fuss about it in the past. It is only right wheelchair users do make accessibility issues a public concern. If they don't the issues just get ignored for the trending public outcry.

I'm aware of that, and it's interesting, but that person was trying to equate the bouncers to that of the Nazis, madness.

anncoates

Moron mob 1

Common sense 0

Gyalist

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

You haven't a clue what you are talking about, your estimate of a '€50 million' budget is absolutely hilarious.

In a change of use of a premises which is what happened at this venue, reasonable provisions have to be made to accommodate wheelchair users etc. You don't get to arbitrarily decide what planning remits you follow, all architectural and engineering drawings are submitted to the local council for appraisal at the planning stage. Special consideration is given to accessibility and fire compliance.
Dublin City Council also decided that there was not a need for a lift in this premises, it probably fell under one of a few exceptions, likely due to being infeasible.
I know this because when we were drafting the planning drawings for a city centre change of use for a premises into a nightclub we had to have fire corridors and a lift. If the Madison did not have a lift installed they must have had a very good logistical reason not to do so, it was probably unreasonable to install one and DCC agreed.

On Echequer Street/Wicklow Street I can only think of Fallon & Byrne, Brown Thomas and possibly Tower Records who have lifts installed.

RainyDay

deconduo wrote: »

When I did a fire safety training course, we were told to leave people in wheelchairs in a safe place as far away from the fire as possible. Then to inform the fire brigade that there were people in wheelchairs still inside when they arrived.

Would you be happy to wait inside with them?

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There are safe havens in each stairwell where peopor who cant make it down the stairs can wait for assistance.

There are refuge areas in SOME firewells. They are intended as 'temporary waiting areas'. It is not the responsibility of the fire service to evacuate anyone from a building. Those in charge of a building must be able to evacuate the building themselves.

leggo

Having worked as a bouncer (and on the other side, in marketing, PR and running nights in clubs) previously, I'm willing to put money on it that this is what happened:

"Not tonight mate."
"What?! Why?!?"
"You're just not coming in..."
(Any decent bouncer won't give an excuse for this exact reason)
The girls start going mad at him saying it's because he's in a wheelchair. Your man sheds some crocodile tears.
Eventually they scream at them so much that, probably fed up, the bouncer sarcastically says, "Yeah, it's because he's in a wheelchair love. That's exactly it."

The 45 minutes of hell = caused by the girls he was with getting on their high horse and making a massive fuss about it, when he could've taken no for an answer and just left. I've met a lot of thick bouncers in my life, but never any stupid enough to blatantly say that someone isn't getting in because they're in a wheelchair (see also: because they're black, gay, TS, any other area that's off-limits to comment on in the 21st century).

Whether you're in a wheelchair or not, people just don't like getting told no. Even I'm the same: I've gotten thick with bouncers who've refused me entry to places beforehand myself, and I've DONE their job!

From the nightclub's standpoint:

The way they handled it is horrible, but not to be unexpected. They basically hung the bouncer out to dry (as people have pointed out, he probably wasn't sacked but re-located by his agency, security companies tend to be sympathetic towards these issues because they know the **** we've to put up with each night).

This is horrible PR as it now sets a precedent for them and makes any bouncer's job there 1000% more difficult. Any time someone is rightfully refused from now on, they'll try to be a martyr. So Madison will either have to start caving and letting all sorts into their club, the security company will think "**** this..." and start doing the same themselves, or they'll have a ton of further bad publicity coming down their way down the line.

What they SHOULD have done is left a generic apologetic statement on FB to quieten the complaints down, saying that there'll be a full investigation into this and, IF the story is as told, then Madison apologises and will make sure nothing like that ever happens again. Then state how Madison is an all-inclusive venue that would never discriminate against people of any disability etc.

But nope, they've apologised publicly because the mob mentality caused them to **** themselves. That means they've accepted liability (even in situations in my day-job, you're told to apologise to someone that has had an unfortunate incident that you're sorry something like this has happened to them, rather than apologising for being at fault before a full investigation takes place. That's a big deal) now and left themselves open to discriminatory lawsuits if this guy feels like it.

On the small chance the security guard WAS sacked, he can also probably claim for wrongful dismissal (from his agency) and libel (for Madison publicly blaming him) on the basis that he has the right to refuse entry to anyone on a private premesis and the fact that the whole 'because he's in a wheelchair' argument is one person's word versus his.

It could also lead into questions being asked over the wheelchair accessibility of the venue. I'm not 100%, but I think the fact the venue changed ownership recently could work against them, if renovations were done during the changeover and they didn't bring them into line with current accessibility guidelines. That's probably why they shat themselves when the complaints started rolling in...not understanding their own industry enough to realise that they could've made things much, MUCH worse for themselves in the process. Now they have to just sit and pray that what COULD happen, doesn't happen.

Either way, don't worry too much. It's a storm in a teacup and will have blown over for everyone except the people involved by next weekend: sensible public opinion can read between the lines that this guy acted rashly (highlighting the indignance and self-righteousness of some people - able-bodied or not - who don't like being told no), idiots will still be idiots and have a short-term memory anyway, the bouncer will either still have a job or be in line for a massive claim and Madison will ultimately pay the price for that, along with the price for apologising publicly if the lad in the wheelchair follows up on the matter. They may go out of business in the long run. But hey, if that's the way they conduct business, is that such a bad thing really?

Aidric

Lol @ the people now unthanking the OP.

Fratton Fred

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

You haven't a clue what you are talking about, your estimate of a '€50 million' budget is absolutely hilarious.

In a change of use of a premises which is what happened at this venue, reasonable provisions have to be made to accommodate wheelchair users etc. You don't get to arbitrarily decide what planning remits you follow, all architectural and engineering drawings are submitted to the local council for appraisal at the planning stage. Special consideration is given to accessibility and fire compliance.
Dublin City Council also decided that there was not a need for a lift in this premises, it probably fell under one of a few exceptions, likely due to being infeasible.
I know this because when we were drafting the planning drawings for a city centre change of use for a premises into a nightclub we had to have fire corridors and a lift. If the Madison did not have a lift installed they must have had a very good logistical reason not to do so, it was probably unreasonable to install one and DCC agreed.

No DCC would have decided it wasn't practicable to have disabled access. Which is why I also said it shouldn't be down to the bouncer to decide who can and cant come in.

They should be able to state that their public liability license doesn't allow for people in wheel chairs. End of story.

Gorilla Rising

Aidric wrote: »

Lol @ the people now unthanking the OP.

How many down?

127 to go!

starlings

marcsignal wrote: »

A friend of mine of many years 'Graham Bolger' was refused entry to the Madison Nightclub on Wicklow Street, Dublin, last night, because he is a wheelchair user :mad:

I'm still trying to work out why the man's name is in inverted commas, because it made the whole fuss look fake from the start.

Stercus Accidit

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No DCC would have decided it wasn't practicable to have disabled access. Which is why I also said it shouldn't be down to the bouncer to decide who can and cant come in.

Which is what I said, no "no" about it.

They should be able to state that their public liability license doesn't allow for people in wheel chairs. End of story.

The only record of what was said by the bouncers to Graham is very close to that, that they weren't insured to carry him.

monkeypants

Kloecor wrote: »

Well if I was in a wheelchair and that happened to me in front of friends I'd be quite embarrassed and I'm sure I'd go home...

Hmm, well he didn't do that. He decided to hang around outside and pose for photos.

As for it being punishment, perhaps there's a crazy district judge out there (and we know there are) who'd sentence someone to sitting in a wheelchair outside a nightclub for 45 minutes instead of a custodial sentence. No further need for all those expensive prisons.

Mental Mickey

OP, I think you made a big mistake putting this in AH???

Dravokivich

Mental Mickey wrote: »

OP, I think you made a big mistake putting this in AH???

No Mickey, they wanted shock and awe and they got it.

Brendan Flowers

DjTaz wrote: »

I spoke to the guy on the night after he was stopped and he was completely sober and had only got out of the taxi. It was 11.20 when we spoke. He was very polite and well spoken and had no aggression in any way and was in no way drunk.

Next time you take a photo of someone claiming to be completely sober make sure to hide his bottle of beer first.

Lord Trollington

Has there been no further comment from Madison or wheelchair man on the whole incident?

I believe its up to 50,000 likes and facebook and couple of thousand comments?

Redsquigy

I see the club has given a response

To Madison’s credit they responded immediately to Mr.Bolger’s complaint and didn’t remove his photo & post which has attracted the usual mix of support and abuse. The nightclub said they would investigate and have posted this response:

Madison Nightclub unreservedly apologise for the disgraceful treatment of Graham Bolger last night at the club. The person, who was with us from an outside agency for the last 4 weeks, has been dismissed with immediate effect and he will not be employed by the sub-contractor again. Our company policy is that the club is open to all. We have welcomed people of all abilities and will continue to do so. We are ashamed and embarrassed that this has happened. We have delayed posting here as we have been trying to contact Graham directly to apologise to him in advance of apologising publicly. We deeply regret what has happened and will ensure that it never happens again. We hope to speak to Graham directly as soon as possible.

Magenta

I have to say.... Disabled people can be very obnoxious. I lived across the pond for a while, where there were many obese people in electric wheelchairs. They would literally mow you down if you didn't jump out of THEIR way. This being in a busy shopping area!

I also witnessed, while working in a supermarket in Ireland, one woman in a wheelchair beng pushed by her husband. They got to the checkout and before the cashier had even had a chance to say hello, the husband pinted at his wife and said, loudly and rudely "It's HER you're dealing with. Dont ignore her because she's in a wheelchair". You would think the girl had done something wrong.
I have also seen people in wheelchairs jumping queues and if the staff say anything they get "I'm in a WHEELCHAIR!!! I'm DISABLED!!! I have RIGHTS!!!"- they expected us to discriminate against able-bodied people so they could jump the queue.

So my gut says, the bouncer refused him for wearing runners, or being too drunk, or his friends being too drunk, and he's playing the Disabled card.
(I've seen pregnant women do similar things in supermarkets, but that's another story).

dx22

Dravokivich wrote: »

No Mickey, they wanted shock and awe and they got it.

True..but the moral indignation of the first few pages is slowly being turned back towards the OP and his friend, they may regret this course of action yet and should have, like many people have stated, taken the proper/legal course of action if he felt discriminated against rather than posting on FB

smash

leggo wrote: »

"Not tonight mate."
"What?! Why?!?"
"You're just not coming in..."
(Any decent bouncer won't give an excuse for this exact reason)

Does such a thing exist?

Magenta

Lord Trollington wrote: »

Has there been no further comment from Madison or wheelchair man on the whole incident?

I believe its up to 50,000 likes and facebook and couple of thousand comments?

Read the thread. Better yet, spend 5 seconds Googling their FB page.

fullstop

Redsquigy wrote: »

I see the club has given a response

To Madison’s credit they responded immediately to Mr.Bolger’s complaint and didn’t remove his photo & post which has attracted the usual mix of support and abuse. The nightclub said they would investigate and have posted this response:

Madison Nightclub unreservedly apologise for the disgraceful treatment of Graham Bolger last night at the club. The person, who was with us from an outside agency for the last 4 weeks, has been dismissed with immediate effect and he will not be employed by the sub-contractor again. Our company policy is that the club is open to all. We have welcomed people of all abilities and will continue to do so. We are ashamed and embarrassed that this has happened. We have delayed posting here as we have been trying to contact Graham directly to apologise to him in advance of apologising publicly. We deeply regret what has happened and will ensure that it never happens again. We hope to speak to Graham directly as soon as possible.

That's been posted about 10 times already.

Mental Mickey

Dravokivich wrote: »

No Mickey, they wanted shock and awe and they got it.

They're getting slagged off too. This is a serious issue. Not allowing someone into a premises on the grounds that they are in a wheelchair is ridiculous in this day and age.

podgemonster

smash wrote: »

Does such a thing exist?

Yes.

Gorilla Rising

Mental Mickey wrote: »

They're getting slagged off too. This is a serious issue. Not allowing someone into a premises on the grounds that they are in a wheelchair is ridiculous in this day and age.

Have you even read the thread? :rolleyes:

fullstop

Brendan Flowers wrote: »

Next time you take a photo of someone claiming to be completely sober make sure to hide his bottle of beer first.

Although that looks like a beer bottle, it's a wheel!

osarusan

It's all a publicity stunt building up for this moment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiwKb-x7wXQ

Brendan Flowers

fullstop wrote: »

Although that looks like a beer bottle, it's a wheel!

Oops, my mistake!

monkeypants

Magenta wrote: »

obese people in electric wheelchairs.

Are they counted as disabled now?

sfwcork

should we start a bookface page to get the bouncer re-instated and turn it all back on the uy? His acted like a d i c k so ive no sympathy???

KERSPLAT!

Seems like the tide is changing and people are turning against Graham now, not just on here but on FB as well

Hoop66

Good. He seems like a deceitful attention-whore.

VinLieger

Magenta wrote: »

I have to say.... Disabled people can be very obnoxious. I lived across the pond for a while, where there were many obese people in electric wheelchairs. They would literally mow you down if you didn't jump out of THEIR way. This being in a busy shopping area!

Fat people arent disabled they are just fat

Mental Mickey

osarusan wrote: »

It's all a publicity stunt building up for this moment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiwKb-x7wXQ

It may well be a stupid publicity stunt, but it still doesn't hide the fact that a lot of public places are still not wheelchair accessible.

Kenny Logins

Princess Petulia Pissy Pants wrote: »

Seems like the tide is changing and people are turning against Graham now, not just on here but on FB as well

Well I just hope he doesn't experience the same level of mindless abuse as the club has had to deal with over the last couple of days. Nobody deserves that.