Has the art of defending gone out of the English game.

niallo27

Watching the liverpool 3-2 game and them turning over to the last 30 mins of the utd Chelsea game, has the art of defending gone out of the game. Utd were always an attack first team in fairness but their defending was shocking today. Liverpool have been really poor at the back as have city this season. We rarely see a 1-0 anymore. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. It makes for better football. Is it a new transition in football where we can score more than you philosophy.

Certainly seems to be more goals this season although that might not be the case

Will I Amnt

United have conceded 3 goals in their last 8 Premier League games...
5 clean sheets.

Leiva

I think the demise of defending is a byproduct of teams going with a whole new system/style.

The league is going through a change and managers are now using different open, possession tyoe football and the traditional 4-4-2 is used less and less.

Andersonisgod

I think the rules of the game ans the attacking, flair players being given more protection has led to an increase in goals and defences perhaps struggling a bit. Of course there are other factors too such as the game is quicker now and the players are much athletes.

However I still think great defending exists. Taking today as an example, David Luiz was superb. Everything you'd want in a modern defender, constantly nicked the ball ahead of his opponents, in the right place at the right time practically all game, strode out from the back on the ball and displayed real leadership. I'm using this example as Luiz has been written off so many times but I believe that he is the perfect modern centre back and a great example of a new, different style of defenders.

niallo27

cambo2008 wrote: »

United have conceded 3 goals in their last 8 Premier League games...

They have still conceded 31 goals in 28 games. How does this compare to other seasons.

Neil3030

Could it be the case that with players' touch, passing and control improving so much*, teams are now just so good going forward that if you build from the back, you will always eventually concede?

*I mean overall, not that there weren't players with touch who could pass in yester year.

Will I Amnt

niallo27 wrote: »

They have still conceded 31 goals in 28 games. How does this compare to other seasons.

Yea, it doesn't look great but it was an odd start to the season and the defence has only really got itself together recently. I'd put it down to injuries and form rather than a change in the game.

adox

Andersonisgod wrote: »

However I still think great defending exists. Taking today as an example, David Luiz was superb. Everything you'd want in a modern defender, constantly nicked the ball ahead of his opponents, in the right place at the right time practically all game, strode out from the back on the ball

Are you for real? Luiz a good example of a defender in the English game?
To describe his performance today as superb is deluded!
He went missing on numerous occasions, was all ver the place positionally and was too easily muscled out of it for the second goal.

He's a classy guy bringing the ball out and passing it but defending is the weakest part of his game.

Andersonisgod

adox wrote: »

Are you for real? Luiz a good example of a defender in the English game?
To describe his performance today as superb is deluded!
He went missing on numerous occasions, was all ver the place positionally and was too easily muscled out of it for the second goal.

He's a classy guy bringing the ball out and passing it but defending is the weakest part of his game.

I don't mean to sound condescending but this sounds like the opinion of someone who is entirely out of touch as to what defending actually is in modern day football. I'd describe it as superb, awesome, stunning, a stirring display from one of the finest centre backs in world football.

Without Luiz we wouldn't have comeback to get a 2-2 today, without Luiz it potentially could have been a disaster for Chelsea. Blaming the second goal on Luiz is like blaming the first goal on Fernando Torres or the sun, utterly ridiculous.

Far from it. He anticipates the play well, he's aggressive, he gets on the front foot and his ability to play out from the back is vital in the modern game. I dare say he wouldn't look at all out of place at Barcelona, and he certainly doesn't look out of place at Chelsea. A top class modern day centre back.

Will I Amnt

Luiz is a liability. Great with the ball at his feet but batshìt crazy with his decision making.

Andersonisgod

cambo2008 wrote: »

Luiz is a liability. Great with the ball at his feet but batshìt crazy with his decision making.

A liability whose just wandered into a team that won the FA Cup and Champions League, who just happens to be picked at centre back (and occasionally captain) for the most successful ever football nation in Brazil and who is just lucky to be the top of Barcelona's transfer list, having already been approached to join the ranks of the greatest team in the world a couple of times. That's quite the liability.

mike65

Every year (it seems) the rules are tweaked to give greater advantage to the attacking player. So its hardly a surprise more goals are being scored. There is also a broader change in footballing philosophy in the Prem. 4-4-2 is not dead but its changed and just going 4-5-1 (and praying) is seen as positively stone age now. 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 and variations are the mode for now. Why have a lone striker when you can have 3 or even 4 players who's primary task is attacking and scoring.

adox

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I don't mean to sound condescending but this sounds like the opinion of someone who is entirely out of touch as to what defending actually is in modern day football. I'd describe it as superb, awesome, stunning, a stirring display from one of the finest centre backs in world football.

Last time I checked defending involved em defending, which Luiz is poor at IMO.

Condescend away if you think it validates your point, but you are beyond delusional if you think he is one of the finest centre backs in the world.

Andersonisgod

adox wrote: »

Last time I checked defending involved em defending, which Luiz is poor at IMO.

Condescend away if you think it validates your point, but you are beyond delusional if you think he is one of the finest centre backs in the world.

Then I guess Chelsea, Brazil and Barcelona (oh and Benfica) are all delusional to rate such a "poor" defender so highly.

markie29

Andersonisgod wrote: »

A liability whose just wandered into a team that won the FA Cup and Champions League, who just happens to be picked at centre back (and occasionally captain) for the most successful ever football nation in Brazil and who is just lucky to be the top of Barcelona's transfer list, having already been approached to join the ranks of the greatest team in the world a couple of times. That's quite the liability.

Luiz would suit Barcas style of play...he is good with the ball at his feet.
Djimi Traore won the fa cup and champions league it doesnt make him good defender.

but at the topic at hand...i just think the attacking players in the league are better than the defenders currently playing.
There are no outstanding centre backs in the league.

PhlegmyMoses

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Then I guess Chelsea, Brazil and Barcelona (oh and Benfica) are all delusional to rate such a "poor" defender so highly.

David Luiz is not one of the finest centre backs in the game today. He is a liability and has been since he joined Chelsea. The appeal to authority argument doesn't validate your opinion. Mikael Silvestre played for Inter Milan, Manchester United and Arsenal but was not cut out for the highest level.

Luiz had a decent second half today but didn't really have much to defend against after the first 30 mins. Ferdinand was better than him today.

Andersonisgod

markie29 wrote: »

Luiz would suit Barcas style of play...he is good with the ball at his feet.
Djimi Traore won the fa cup and champions league it doesnt make him good defender.

but at the topic at hand...i just think the attacking players in the league are better than the defenders currently playing.
There are no outstanding centre backs in the league.

It's more than that. Pique, Mascherano and Puyol are all excellent with the ball at their feet. Busquets has played at centre back and is also excellent with the ball at his feet. Luiz however is more. He can play in a high line, he has the pace to recover his position, he's aggressive and always looking to win the ball in front of his opponent, a lot of the time, with how Barcelona play, their centre backs get isolated one vs one and there are very few one vs one defenders better than David Luiz. Yes he is excellent with the ball at his feet but he is so much more than that, add in being a great leader and you have a player worthy of Barcelona.

However this discussion is derailing the topic so I'll stop.

eagle eye

The game has evolved, its clear that coaches have become much smarter at setting up their attacking systems. There is clearly a lot of basketball type pressing when a team gets into the final third. There is so much more movement and more players involved in the attacks. I think its just a case of the defensive side not having caught up yet.

Will I Amnt

Andersonisgod wrote: »

A liability whose just wandered into a team that won the FA Cup and Champions League, who just happens to be picked at centre back (and occasionally captain) for the most successful ever football nation in Brazil and who is just lucky to be the top of Barcelona's transfer list, having already been approached to join the ranks of the greatest team in the world a couple of times. That's quite the liability.

The standard of defending in Spain is inferior to England. Barca could probably get away with playing midfielders across the back 4.
This is the worst Brazil team in memory.
And Djimi Traore has already been mentioned.

mike65

niallo27 wrote: »

Watching the liverpool 3-2 game and them turning over to the last 30 mins of the utd Chelsea game, has the art of defending gone out of the game. Utd were always an attack first team in fairness but their defending was shocking today. Liverpool have been really poor at the back as have city this season. We rarely see a 1-0 anymore. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. It makes for better football. Is it a new transition in football where we can score more than you philosophy.

Man City games clean sheets 46.43% 1st
Liverpool games clean sheets 37.93% 2nd
Chelsea Games Clean Sheets 35.71 3rd

The second highlighted point is truer, still 10% of all games.

2008/09 Goals per match 2.48 Goals: 942 (full season)
2012/13 Goals per match 2.85 Goals: 815 (75.3% completed)

Andersonisgod

cambo2008 wrote: »

The standard of defending in Spain is inferior to England. Barca could probably get away with playing midfielders across the back 4.
This is the worst Brazil team in memory.
And Djimi Traore has already been mentioned.

Oh no, it's a ridiculous generalization. I wonder, in the last 5 years has any team in the Champions League got a better goals conceded to games ratio than Barcelona? But please do offer some conclusive proof that defending in Spain isn't as good as it is in England.
It certainly isn't the worst Brazilian team in memory and I'd argue that getting in at centre back for Brazil is one of the contested positions in international football.

Will I Amnt

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Oh no, it's a ridiculous generalization. I wonder, in the last 5 years has any team in the Champions League got a better goals conceded to games ratio than Barcelona? But please do offer some conclusive proof that defending in Spain isn't as good as it is in England.
It certainly isn't the worst Brazilian team in memory and I'd argue that getting in at centre back for Brazil is one of the contested positions in international football.

Barca don't give you the ball. That's the reason they don't concede much.
You have an obvious hard on for Barca and the way they play and I've no doubt that Luiz would fit in well there and look a very good player but at the moment he's with Chelsea and does not look a good defender.
A lot of Chelsea fans on here, from what I've read, seem to prefer him in midfield. That says a lot to me.

Andersonisgod

cambo2008 wrote: »

Barca don't give you the ball. That's the reason they don't concede much.
You have an obvious hard on for Barca and the way they play and I've no doubt that Luiz would fit in well there and look a very good player but at the moment he's with Chelsea and does not look a good defender.
A lot of Chelsea fans on here, from what I've read, seem to prefer him in midfield. That says a lot to me.

Which is a form of defending. One of the key ideals of the tiki taka style from the beginning was that it is a form of defence while also being a form of attack. You could argue that while Barcelona use it more to gain an advantage offensively, Spain have been accused of using tiki taka negatively , their purpose being only to keep the ball to stop the opposition scoring.

Yes I do have great admiration for the way Barcelona play, imo the right way.

I disagree, I think he's been excellent this season, I thought he was excellent last season. Yes he occasionally makes a mistake, his performances more than make up for it. I also believe that his mistakes are always highlighted to a far greater degree than most others, for example I'd say Gary Cahill has made more costly errors this season than Luiz but he is English and plays as an English centre back should so the level of criticism he receives will never come anywhere close to that of Luiz.

It does say a lot, it says we have a serious midfield issue that needs to be rectified in the Summer.

Will I Amnt

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Which is a form of defending. One of the key ideals of the tiki taka style from the beginning was that it is a form of defence while also being a form of attack. You could argue that while Barcelona use it more to gain an advantage offensively, Spain have been accused of using tiki taka negatively , their purpose being only to keep the ball to stop the opposition scoring.

Yes I do have great admiration for the way Barcelona play, imo the right way.

I disagree, I think he's been excellent this season, I thought he was excellent last season. Yes he occasionally makes a mistake, his performances more than make up for it. I also believe that his mistakes are always highlighted to a far greater degree than most others, for example I'd say Gary Cahill has made more costly errors this season than Luiz but he is English and plays as an English centre back should so the level of criticism he receives will never come anywhere close to that of Luiz.

It does say a lot, it says we have a serious midfield issue that needs to be rectified in the Summer.

We'll agree to disagree, no point in dragging this out but I doubt very much you will get many agreeing with you on his ability to defend.

Andersonisgod

cambo2008 wrote: »

We'll agree to disagree, no point in dragging this out but I doubt very much you will get many agreeing with you on his ability to defend.

That's fine. They've been drip fed by the English media. Watching practically every Chelsea game this season I feel safe knowing just how excellent Luiz is and have no doubt that he would be a hit at Barcelona.

But yes, I will also stop commenting for the sake of the thread.

adox

Andersonisgod wrote: »

That's fine. They've been drip fed by the English media. Watching practically every Chelsea game this season I feel safe knowing just how excellent Luiz is and have no doubt that he would be a hit at Barcelona.

But yes, I will also stop commenting for the sake of the thread.

Or they just hold a different opinion on the player from watching him like you?
Also re the Barcelona reference to back up your point, you actually couldn't pick a worse team to show off your defending skills.

PhlegmyMoses

Andersonisgod wrote: »

That's fine. They've been drip fed by the English media.

You're right mate. We're all zomboids who believe the agendas of the lizard people of the media. We also don't "get" defending the way you do. Or maybe, you know, Luiz just isn't as good as you think.

eagle eye

This is a thread about the art of defending, not one player. FFS this place is ridiculous these days. No matter what somebody wants to talk about it just turns into a childish argument over a player.:rolleyes: