Coppice on Bogland?

makeorbrake

Looking at a parcel of forestry/bogland just now. The forestry is 20 years old. I am assuming that they didn't bother to plant the rest as it either..

a. wouldnt be suitable
or
b. wouldn't be eligable for grants (am i right to assume that no grants will be given to land planted that is covered in heather?)

...or both.

Could most bogland be utilised for willow coppice (for firewood)? Would it lend itself to that if it doesnt lend itself to regular planting with the likes of sitka, etc?


Lastly, is there likely to be any restriction on using bogland in this way? eg. sites of scientific interest, etc?

reilig

makeorbrake wrote: »

Looking at a parcel of forestry/bogland just now. The forestry is 20 years old. I am assuming that they didn't bother to plant the rest as it either..

a. wouldnt be suitable
or
b. wouldn't be eligable for grants (am i right to assume that no grants will be given to land planted that is covered in heather?)

...or both.

Could most bogland be utilised for willow coppice (for firewood)? Would it lend itself to that if it doesnt lend itself to regular planting with the likes of sitka, etc?


Lastly, is there likely to be any restriction on using bogland in this way? eg. sites of scientific interest, etc?

I can only answer your suitability question. Willow for coppicing will grow very well on bogland - so long as it has sufficient moisture. It will not grow very well on raised bog as this type tends to dry out very well close to the surface where the roots tend to grow.

Native willow grows best. Around here its called "Bog Sally". (technical term is grey willow). I have some growing at the moment which I will be coppacing in a few years. I'm currently burning some willow which has been coppiced from hedgerows. Its good burning wood which is easy to handle and to dry!

ford2600

Known as fcuking sallys around here. Once its wet they grow likes weeds.
Makes great firewood

reilig wrote: »

I can only answer your suitability question. Willow for coppicing will grow very well on bogland - so long as it has sufficient moisture. It will not grow very well on raised bog as this type tends to dry out very well close to the surface where the roots tend to grow.

Native willow grows best. Around here its called "Bog Sally". (technical term is grey willow). I have some growing at the moment which I will be coppacing in a few years. I'm currently burning some willow which has been coppiced from hedgerows. Its good burning wood which is easy to handle and to dry!

periodictable

makeorbrake wrote: »

Looking at a parcel of forestry/bogland just now. The forestry is 20 years old. I am assuming that they didn't bother to plant the rest as it either..

a. wouldnt be suitable
or
b. wouldn't be eligable for grants (am i right to assume that no grants will be given to land planted that is covered in heather?)

...or both.

Could most bogland be utilised for willow coppice (for firewood)? Would it lend itself to that if it doesnt lend itself to regular planting with the likes of sitka, etc?
Lastly, is there likely to be any restriction on using bogland in this way? eg. sites of scientific interest, etc?

Often times tree growth on bog/peat fails miserably. Portions of the plantation can grow well, and the rest of the site can be an unmitigated disaster due to either extremely poor peat or a heather problem or both.
Some Forest Service inspectors are refusing outright to grant aid land that has any heather growing on it- sometimes based on a correct assessment that the site is not going to be productive, and it appears others use it as a cover to refuse planting because they are anti-forestry-hard to believe??
Re .willow growing on bog- the common willow or sally -Salix caprea- grows almost anywhere, but other willows are very site demanding and as most peat is nutrient poor, will not grow.
If you can mound the peat, get adequate drainage, and mix mineral soil with the peat, and add phosphate and N, you may get somewhere. What may grow is downy birch- Betula pubescens- which should grow well on drained peats
Without seeing the site it's hard to say what to do, but if the forest is producing well, I'd focus on thinning that and getting firewood from the thinnings.
Bear in mind that most peats, unless they have an influx of nutrients via springs, are inherently nutrient poor- it's part of Irish forestry history that many peatland areas were afforested because mineral soils were seen as agriculturally productive.

makeorbrake

periodictable wrote: »

Often times tree growth on bog/peat fails miserably. Portions of the plantation can grow well, and the rest of the site can be an unmitigated disaster due to either extremely poor peat or a heather problem or both.

I only had an initial scout around there this morning (was in the general area - but still unsure of exact landholding just yet - have yet to meet with vendor). However, what was planted was established in 1998. I'm not sure if any insight can be gauged in terms of growth based on the pics (see below)? It's a mixture of lodge pole pine, norway spruce, larch, alder & sitka.

periodictable wrote: »

Some Forest Service inspectors are refusing outright to grant aid land that has any heather growing on it- sometimes based on a correct assessment that the site is not going to be productive, and it appears others use it as a cover to refuse planting because they are anti-forestry-hard to believe??

I don't have the knowledge to work out whether the bogland can be planted (in the same way as the rest was in '98). However, I'm currently working on the assumption that either it's not feasible or there was no grant forthcoming for planting that area.
There might be another reason also. I've since heard from the vendor that the 30 acres of bogland is subject to turbary rights. He's going to get back to me - re. my query (i.e. can that area - OR some of that area be planted notwithstanding the turbary rights that are in place).
Does anyone have any knowledge in relation to the above?

If regular planting wasn't possible (for whichever of the reasons eluded to above), I was then thinking in terms of coppicing - and in that way, making best use of the 30 odd acres of bogland.

periodictable wrote: »

Re .willow growing on bog- the common willow or sally -Salix caprea- grows almost anywhere, but other willows are very site demanding and as most peat is nutrient poor, will not grow.
If you can mound the peat, get adequate drainage, and mix mineral soil with the peat, and add phosphate and N, you may get somewhere. What may grow is downy birch- Betula pubescens- which should grow well on drained peats
Without seeing the site it's hard to say what to do

I'm not sure if you can gauge anything from this but the following pics from the site;
Bogland1
Bogland2
Bogland3
Bogland4
Bogland5

periodictable wrote:

I'd focus on thinning that and getting firewood from the thinnings.

I suppose I'm trying to see if any value can be wrung from that 30 acres of bogland. If it can, I will more than likely put an offer in for this.

periodictable wrote:

Bear in mind that most peats, unless they have an influx of nutrients via springs, are inherently nutrient poor- it's part of Irish forestry history that many peatland areas were afforested because mineral soils were seen as agriculturally productive.

Be interesting to hear if what you see in the pics gives more or less hope that the area could be successfully coppiced...

periodictable

First ask the vendor for an aerial shot of the site- these are standard. Given the land I'd like to see what's on the inside of the plantation- often the external boundaries grow well and the interior of the plantation can be patchy. Look for brown areas!
Frankly the land type you show me does not look promising for willow coppice-planted 15 years ago, note that the only common willow or sally is restricted to the raises banks or next to the fireline. I doubt you will get grant aid for planting that land were you to apply. Also it is possible that some of the site was left unplanted as a biodiversity area but grant aided. You really need to see the Forest Service file to see exactly what area was grant aided.
Re turbary-you need to define area where the turbary rights exist and leave that unplanted plus access. It looks like nobody has harvested for some time in the areas you show. There is another complication to planting though which is the recent restriction on planting even without grant aid-apparently you still have to apply to plant it unless it is an area <.25ha
I have some land land like that in the photos and intuitively I cannot see willow coppice working on it unless it's a full scale mounding operation with burning of the site to stunt the heather, and big fertilizer inputs.
The only other suggestion is to fireline the unplanted area and try to burn every few years to keep it clean and maintain some sort of bog flora which in itself in environmentally sound, but then you may also run the risk of your turf cutters deciding to move back in....
What county is it in?
You have 5 years of premium payments left so that may be worth considering.

crackcrack30

Bord na mona with thousands of acres of bogland of different type and degree of use still decided to outsource to farmed agri land when looking for alternative fuel sources...

makeorbrake

periodictable wrote: »

First ask the vendor for an aerial shot of the site- these are standard. Given the land I'd like to see what's on the inside of the plantation- often the external boundaries grow well and the interior of the plantation can be patchy. Look for brown areas!

I'll go back when I have a bit more time - and walk through the forestry plot - and check it at first hand.

periodictable wrote: »

Frankly the land type you show me does not look promising for willow coppice-planted 15 years ago, note that the only common willow or sally is restricted to the raises banks or next to the fireline. I doubt you will get grant aid for planting that land were you to apply.

Is there grant aid for coppicing? Aside from willow, is there anything else that may be more suitable to plant this up with? You mentioned betula previously? ...OR...is it a case that the bogland in question is simply too nutrient deficient to support anything?

periodictable wrote: »

You really need to see the Forest Service file to see exactly what area was grant aided.

How can I go about getting my hands on this? Is this only possible through the vendor?

periodictable wrote: »

There is another complication to planting though which is the recent restriction on planting even without grant aid-apparently you still have to apply to plant it unless it is an area <.25ha

So they could stop me from planting? What would be the likely rationale here?

periodictable wrote: »

I have some land land like that in the photos and intuitively I cannot see willow coppice working on it unless it's a full scale mounding operation with burning of the site to stunt the heather, and big fertilizer inputs.

Presumably, the cost of that work is going to make the project uneconomical?

periodictable wrote:

The only other suggestion is to fireline the unplanted area and try to burn every few years to keep it clean and maintain some sort of bog flora which in itself in environmentally sound, but then you may also run the risk of your turf cutters deciding to move back in....

Ok, but this would just be a method to manage it - there's no benefit in terms of $ with that - is that correct?

crackcrack30 wrote:

Bord na mona with thousands of acres of bogland of different type and degree of use still decided to outsource to farmed agri land when looking for alternative fuel sources...

So essentially what you're saying is that BnM decided that their cutaway/bogland simply couldn't support coppicing?

cannotdisplay

that land is completely ineligible for grant aid, and rightly so. it wouldnt make financial sense.

you wont get a grant for willow there either or any coppice.

you need everyone with turbary rights to sign them away or else you cannot plant anything. this will cost money, possibly a large amount.

as mentioned, the inputs required to attempt getting something to grow will never be recouped financially.

if you are not a farmer yourself then you dont have 5 years grants left to draw because non-farmers only draw for 15 years.

there are obvious nutritional deficiencies in the forestry in the pictures, the yellowing nature of the spruce is very worrying and a strong sign that some of the worse areas will not grow into a commercial crop unless there is heavy applications of phosphate and nitrogen spread, 10 - 15 years time i think this will be required again and possibly again in 20 years. its hard to tell in those photos what the pine is like, however it is very safe to assume judging from the general site that the pine will probably require at least nitrogen.

even correcting the nutritional problems, the yield class will be very low and you may not harvest the whole of the forest for another 30 to 40 years. also there is a clear risk to be taken on whether the site can be definately stopped from going into full check.

regardless of what the auctioneer says, i think the forestry is worth no more than 2000 per acre due to fertiliser requirments. the unplanted land with turbary is essentially worthless, wouldnt give 500 per acre for it. any bog without turbary is basically as bad but may demand a 500-800 per acre price.

even going at that price i would advise not buying it for what you hope to do with it

moy83

If there are turbary rights on the the land , would they be passed onto you in the sale or how does that work ?
If you were allowed to cut turf on the thirty acres it could give you instant fuel more or less , and you could rent out a few plots every year to bring in a few bob .
Is that land in Galway by any chance ?

makeorbrake

moy83 wrote: »

If there are turbary rights on the the land , would they be passed onto you in the sale or how does that work ?

My understanding (and totally open to correction on this) is that the land would remain subject to the very same turbary rights.

moy83 wrote: »

If you were allowed to cut turf on the thirty acres it could give you instant fuel more or less , and you could rent out a few plots every year to bring in a few bob.

Yes, would be nice if it played out that way. However, given what others have posted above, it looks like it simply isn't a feasible proposition regardless of which way one tries to 'wring' value out of it.

moy83 wrote: »

Is that land in Galway by any chance ?

No - not in Galway.