Season 3 Episode 13 "Arrow on the doorpost" [**Spoilers**]

wonderfullife

Jofspring wrote: »

Thats the thing that gets me. I don't mind some slow scenes but when they drag something that could be done in 15 to 20 minutes out to 43 minutes it can get frustrating.

As I have said before the seasons are short enough as it is so episodes that drag out too much of one particular part of the story can be frustrating.

Last week you got away with it because there was the return of an old character and interest to what has happened him since season one. This week I feel they could have done the Rick/Gov scene easily in about 15 minutes and pushed on from there.

Is that not an understandable trade-off for the explosiveness of the season so far?

If you examine the totality of the season, we have lost Lori, T-Dog, had the birth of Judith, death of Axel, return of Merle, return (ish) of Morgan, a lot going on at Woodbury with Michonne stabbing The Gov etc

Most shows, in most seasons, would have held back some of those events for mid-season or season Finales. The fact is season 3 went big, bold and brave with some tremendous episodes before the mid-season hiatus. Since they've returned, the pace has steadied somewhat, the tension low (but building) and we've had a few character driven episodes.

I'll own up - i've loved both the recent character driven episodes, though i guess it's worth noting of the 2, the one with Andrea in it was the weaker one. Lennie James was, of course, terrific in "Clear" but the episode didn't contain too many contrivances to stomach. When Andrea returns to screen, for better or worse, the contrivances seem to mount.

This episode stirred the pot a bit more. I liked the subtle tete-a-tete with Rick and The Gov, if you go over the dialogue there wasn't too many wasted words, some cutting jabs in either direction as well. For what it may have lacked in genuine tension it made up for in other ways.

TL;DR - I quite like the uneven pace of the season, the fact they set down a marker early with some dramatic episodes, deaths and carnage, in my opinion, gives them a bit more lee-way in the character driven episodes. "Arrow at thee doorpost" was no "Clear" but still felt it was a solid contribution. And necessary.

Artful_Badger

wonderfullife wrote: »

Is that not an understandable trade-off for the explosiveness of the season so far?

If you examine the totality of the season, we have lost Lori, T-Dog, had the birth of Judith, death of Axel, return of Merle, return (ish) of Morgan, a lot going on at Woodbury with Michonne stabbing The Gov etc

Most shows, in most seasons, would have held back some of those events for mid-season or season Finales. The fact is season 3 went big, bold and brave with some tremendous episodes before the mid-season hiatus. Since they've returned, the pace has steadied somewhat, the tension low (but building) and we've had a few character driven episodes.

I'll own up - i've loved both the recent character driven episodes, though i guess it's worth noting of the 2, the one with Andrea in it was the weaker one. Lennie James was, of course, terrific in "Clear" but the episode didn't contain too many contrivances to stomach. When Andrea returns to screen, for better or worse, the contrivances seem to mount.

This episode stirred the pot a bit more. I liked the subtle tete-a-tete with Rick and The Gov, if you go over the dialogue there wasn't too many wasted words, some cutting jabs in either direction as well. For what it may have lacked in genuine tension it made up for in other ways.

TL;DR - I quite like the uneven pace of the season, the fact they set down a marker early with some dramatic episodes, deaths and carnage, in my opinion, gives them a bit more lee-way in the character driven episodes. "Arrow at thee doorpost" was no "Clear" but still felt it was a solid contribution. And necessary.

I get what your saying but I personally dont see any point in having the season so uneven. To me it smacks of poor pacing by the writers. Each episode should be entertaining. You cant just say "Well the last few were good, we're due a dud". That last one was just way too drawn out, particularly considering the one before was on a tangent to this seasons story line. The ending was good but thats 15 minutes of any other episode. They meet up, Govner makes a proposal, Rick has a decision to make. Its the end of an episode dragged into an episode itself in my eyes and if they were gonna drag out that across an entire episode they should of had something more going on elsewhere to have something actually happen in an hour long show.

I think thats why so many speak of the tension, they spent the entire episode thinking something was gonna happen because something has to happen without anything actually happening. Thats not good tv, thats just disappointing. An hour of tv to learn that something might happen next time isnt utilising tension and building suspense, its just nothing happening.

wonderfullife

Artful_Badger wrote: »

I get what your saying but I personally dont see any point in having the season so uneven. To me it smacks of poor pacing by the writers. Each episode should be entertaining. You cant just say "Well the last few were good, we're due a dud". That last one was just way too drawn out, particularly considering the one before was on a tangent to this seasons story line. The ending was good but thats 15 minutes of any other episode. They meet up, Govner makes a proposal, Rick has a decision to make. Its the end of an episode dragged into an episode itself in my eyes and if they were gonna drag out that across an entire episode they should of had something more going on elsewhere to have something actually happen in an hour long show.

I think thats why so many speak of the tension, they spent the entire episode thinking something was gonna happen because something has to happen without anything actually happening. Thats not good tv, thats just disappointing. An hour of tv to learn that something might happen next time isnt utilising tension and building suspense, its just nothing happening.

Would you prefer the traditional pace of shows? Usually that goes something like, strong Premiere episode ---> character driven eps ----> build to mid-season dramatic finale, rinse and repeat for second half of season.

This show is very unlike certain shows of previous years. Lost, i suppose, is the starting point for comparison. The fundamental difference between the 2 shows is that TWD has a far smaller main cast and supporting cast.

TWD - Season 3: Rick, Carl, Lori, Daryll, Beth, Carol, T-Dog, Glenn, Maggie, Michonne, The Gov, Andrea, Milton, Tyrese

Lost had one of the largest main casts but the supporting casts were quite large. You had the Dharma Initiative people, Charles Widmores people, etc etc you had various strands, storylines and subplots within that.

So say for example

when charlie died

they built that up with many character-driven episodes, of which contained subplots.

TWD doesn't have as many tangents they can go off on. It's a fairly contained show, both geographically and numerically, it's a show contained in a small area and focusing on a small group of people.

My point, in a long-winded fashion, is that character-driven episodes where "nothing happens" are most definitely going to form part of each and every season. And personally i prefer the pacing this season where we didn't get predictable pacing of character-driven eps followed by dramatic finales. We got spectacular drama early on and reminded the viewer nobody is safe and to expect anything to happen at any point (not just when they expect it in Finales).

Lollipops23

I enjoyed the episode but felt like it was stretched out thinner than it could have been.

The tension when Rick and The Governor sat down together was palpable; really didn't know how it would turn out.

Interested to see what direction the show takes in the next few episodes!

Grimebox

wonderfullife wrote: »

Would you prefer the traditional pace of shows? Usually that goes something like, strong Premiere episode ---> character driven eps ----> build to mid-season dramatic finale, rinse and repeat for second half of season.

This show is very unlike certain shows of previous years. Lost, i suppose, is the starting point for comparison. The fundamental difference between the 2 shows is that TWD has a far smaller main cast and supporting cast.

TWD - Season 3: Rick, Carl, Lori, Daryll, Beth, Carol, T-Dog, Glenn, Maggie, Michonne, The Gov, Andrea, Milton, Tyrese

Lost had one of the largest main casts but the supporting casts were quite large. You had the Dharma Initiative people, Charles Widmores people, etc etc you had various strands, storylines and subplots within that.

So say for example

when charlie died

they built that up with many character-driven episodes, of which contained subplots.

TWD doesn't have as many tangents they can go off on. It's a fairly contained show, both geographically and numerically, it's a show contained in a small area and focusing on a small group of people.

My point, in a long-winded fashion, is that character-driven episodes where "nothing happens" are most definitely going to form part of each and every season. And personally i prefer the pacing this season where we didn't get predictable pacing of character-driven eps followed by dramatic finales. We got spectacular drama early on and reminded the viewer nobody is safe and to expect anything to happen at any point (not just when they expect it in Finales).

That's all great, I'd just prefer if the walking dead was better than it is. I want to enjoy it and not groan from time to time.

If you want to do comparisons, Breaking Bad has had around 10 main characters over 5 seasons.

username123

I agree that the pacing is off.

Ultimately, the episodes are not consistently as good as each other. Thats fine when they all meet a minimum standard, but unfortunately TWD veers between totally amazing to really not that good at all.

The characters are inconsistently written as well.

The male characters have a lot of complexity, good sides and bad sides, and are generally reasonably interesting.

The female characters are kind of whiny and/or flat by comparison. Michonne is the most interesting looking female character to date and she says nothing and just looks angry.

A generally good indicator of how well they are doing with character development is if you know peoples names, and I didnt even know Carols name until season 3.

I have to admit, Im kinda bored with the Governor stuff now. Id like to see it tied up and move on, because its starting to drag.

martomcg

Grimebox wrote: »

That's all great, I'd just prefer if the walking dead was better than it is. I want to enjoy it and not groan from time to time.

If you want to do comparisons, Breaking Bad has had around 10 main characters over 5 seasons.

I think they need to create tangents in order to keep people interested. Thy're currently restricted by the area and storylines they're locked into.

I'd like to see a divide after the Rick-Gov situation comes to a head.

Possibly Merle, Daryl heading off on their own for an extended period of time. Heading to the coast maybe. And document their struggles/encounters. While at the same time staying with the main group and developing whatever the next story is for them.

Its going to have to reach a point where TWD tv show and TWD comic book dont follow the same storyline.

Honestly I dont see why they should.

expectationlost

part of the problem is the amc promotion and promo giving you the idea that the battle is on next week, even though you know there are x episodes left, they shouldn't over do that just pisses off the audience

Nervous Wreck

wonderfullife wrote: »

Is that not an understandable trade-off for the explosiveness of the season so far?

If the writing was better, there wouldn't have to be a trade-off at all, nor should there be.

wonderfullife wrote: »

Would you prefer the traditional pace of shows? Usually that goes something like, strong Premiere episode ---> character driven eps ----> build to mid-season dramatic finale, rinse and repeat for second half of season.

Of course! The reason it's the 'traditional pace' is that it's tried and tested. It works. Start off strong, build upon the characters, explosive finale. Of course that's what people want; it's the best way to tell a story!

martomcg wrote: »

I think they need to create tangents in order to keep people interested. Thy're currently restricted by the area and storylines they're locked into.

They're only locked into these storylines because they chose to be. I've said it before but the Gov/Woodbury shouldn't have been introduced until the second half of the season. Woulda been much more interesting.

martomcg wrote: »

Its going to have to reach a point where TWD tv show and TWD comic book dont follow the same storyline.

Honestly I dont see why they should.

They already don't. The show follows some general scenarios etc but it's mostly carving out it's own path that stops off at those scenarios along the way.

For example, in the comics by this point in the Woodbury storyline, we should see Major Comic

Tyreese as Rick's right hand man, an ironic title as Rick's right hand will now be in a bin in the Governor's gaff; Michonne would have been raped; Carol would have killed herself by hugging a zombie because Tyreese had gotten a blower off Michonne etc etc etc

. I like the diversion; it's great. But it is a little disappointing to see the amazing stories from the comics being adapted and kinda worsened in quality by the show...

Jason Todd

Look, I love the comics, but they're depressing as shít. I like how different the show has become. There are different rules to how people and stories are presented on TV shows and they seem to be sticking to TV rules rather than anything else. I'm way too attached to the likes of Comic Book

Carol and Glenn for example

, nothing wrong with a shocking death here and there like Lori and Dale, but really they were expendable characters that can also further the plot in their death without having people switch off. That's how TV works, and its fine by me!

Padraig Mor

Going to echo the 'meh' responses of others to this episode. In fact, we've had three episodes in a row now where, effectively, the story has not progressed much. By the looks of the preview, next week seems to be more of the same, so i guess the budget is being kept for the 'big battle' in the last two episodes. This episode in particular had many of the hallmarks of a 'bottle episode' (much of it being just two characters in a room, etc); looks like AMC blew the budget in the first half of the season and are now just stringing things out to the season finale.

Cantona's Collars

Regarding the prison,there are about 20 zombies in the outer area from when the governor rammed the gates.How hard would it be for the group to just go & clear it out again then secure the outer gates?
Seems like the sensible thing to do imo.At the end of the pow-wow between Rick & the Governor they drove past all of the zombies and into the prison yard,why not just drive through the first gates,stop & close them,then dispose of the walkers inside?

Artful_Badger

zerks wrote: »

Regarding the prison,there are about 20 zombies in the outer area from when the governor rammed the gates.How hard would it be for the group to just go & clear it out again then secure the outer gates?
Seems like the sensible thing to do imo.At the end of the pow-wow between Rick & the Governor they drove past all of the zombies and into the prison yard,why not just drive through the first gates,stop & close them,then dispose of the walkers inside?

How come zombies are milling around there anyway ? Yeah it wouldnt take much to clear it. Hell they could be driving through them every time they come and go and they would soon thin out. Otherwise sort out the gates and send Michone out lob a few heads off.

Penn

After The Governor's attack, it's not safe to be out in the open for too long anyway. The walkers in the outer area of the prison aren't a problem for now. They mostly have to stay indoors or behind cover in case there's another shootout. Plus, the van that was filled with walkers tore down the gate, so it might take a while to fix.

Artful_Badger

Penn wrote: »

After The Governor's attack, it's not safe to be out in the open for too long anyway. The walkers in the outer area of the prison aren't a problem for now. They mostly have to stay indoors or behind cover in case there's another shootout. Plus, the van that was filled with walkers tore down the gate, so it might take a while to fix.

If it was me I'd have Daryl and Merle in the woods armed to the teeth (that means machine gun Daryl !! Fcukin crossbow at the meet up :rolleyes:) watching the road. You'd surely hear a car from miles away and no way they will come through the forest without having a get away plan. I'd also be setting fire to their nice tire wall. Maybe blowing up some stuff near the town to attract some more unwanted guests. Blockading the road with cars and setting booby traps and such.

God I wish I was a writer for this thing, I'd write it real good ! Even better if I was in it, I'd be in it real good too !

listermint

zerks wrote: »

Regarding the prison,there are about 20 zombies in the outer area from when the governor rammed the gates.How hard would it be for the group to just go & clear it out again then secure the outer gates?
Seems like the sensible thing to do imo.At the end of the pow-wow between Rick & the Governor they drove past all of the zombies and into the prison yard,why not just drive through the first gates,stop & close them,then dispose of the walkers inside?

Id keep them there, they act as a barrier for attacks.

The Fencing isnt any real protection, the protection is the cell block itself.

sparkthatbled

Artful_Badger wrote: »

Fcukin crossbow at the meet up

It did occur to me that the crossbow was a stupid choice to bring to a potential shootout with human enemies.


Hopefully they took a few of Morgan's many grenades, they would make attacking woodbury much easier, or just use them to set traps outside the prison. Judging by the remaining episode names and what has happened so far i'd guess that (pure guess but i'll spoiler tag it in case anyone doesn't like speculation)

the final battle will be at the prison and the governor, after interrogating Tyreese, will decide to go in the same way he did.

Either way, it should be an epic finale...

TheUsual

That Prison is a tomb for them at the moment.

Lock all the doors and wait armed to the teeth inside - they don't have the people to protect the outside.
They are open to fire-bombs and sniping. Maybe if they herd those zombies into part of the prison they can use them to ambush the Governor's men. Biological weapons.

Grimebox

I thought Glenn making that hole in the chain link fence to fit a gun out was a bit stupid. It wouldn't be a great place to fight anything but walkers from

Artful_Badger

TheUsual wrote: »

That Prison is a tomb for them at the moment.

Lock all the doors and wait armed to the teeth inside - they don't have the people to protect the outside.
They are open to fire-bombs and sniping. Maybe if they herd those zombies into part of the prison they can use them to ambush the Governor's men. Biological weapons.

Cant allow themselves to be pinned in like that, doubt they have the supplies to last long. Nor can they sit in the prison and wait. First thing they should be doing is blocking the roads to stop them just driving up to the gate. Which would make it easier to defend the perimeter with all those walkers outside they couldnt stick around too long on foot letting off shots, walkers be all over them.

Conmaicne Mara

TheUsual wrote: »

sniping

:pac:

You're new to this show aren't you

They could hardly hit the neighbourhood with a howitzer never mind rifles. I've seen better shooting in full gallop cowboy movies

Wanderer2010

Not a great episode in my opinion, it seems the show has completely gone away from the main threat of walkers to some sort of turf war. Dont get me wrong, its not that I dont like that direction but there are far too many filler episodes in this series, and unlike Clear, which served the purpose of adding humanity to Michonne and hinting that Morgan may join them in the end of season war, this ep was just a protracted face off between Rick and the Gov, with lots of cliches designed to fill the hour (exposing Rick's weakness by mentioning wife, whiskey etc).

The only purpose this episode serves was to outline that yes, the turf war you expected to happen all season will happen, nothing more. So they basically have 3 more eps to actually up the pace a bit and keep the characters interesting at the same time. I know not every ep can be all out action but keep the direction and pace up at least, this ep was static. And I also hope Andrea dies this season, her character has gone as far as it can go- shes a joke to the Gov and not respected by her former friends. Adios, Andrea!

Nervous Wreck

The best thing they coulda possibly done right now was make the next episode a flashback episode showing Michonne's origin.

Syferus

The Walkers are not and will not be the main threat. It amazes me that there's still people who don't recognise the focus of this show is the effects of the apocalypse on people, not some sort of weekly horror show about killing what amount to stupid and slow moving animals.

Grimebox

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

The best thing they coulda possibly done right now was make the next episode a flashback episode showing Michonne's origin.

There was comic that did just that...

PhiloCypher

Grimebox wrote: »

There was comic that did just that...

What! was there a spin off one shot? First I've heard of this. Got a link?

Grimebox

PhiloCypher wrote: »

What! was there a spin off one shot? First I've heard of this. Got a link?

Ha it was part of a Playboy special edition for some reason. A quick google came up with this

COMIC BOOK SPOILERS:

http://www.walkingdeadforums.com/forum/f144/michonne-origin-pages-playboy-magazine-2208.html

Wanderer2010

Syferus wrote: »

The Walkers are not and will not be the main threat. It amazes me that there's still people who don't recognise the focus of this show is the effects of the apocalypse on people, not some sort of weekly horror show about killing what amount to stupid and slow moving animals.

Yeah but would you still watch the show if there were no walkers anywhere and it was just the human beings, Prison vs Woodbury, no other threat? I certainly wouldnt, every major tv show needs a central mystery to run alongside the character development. This show without walkers, and the threat of more walkers, is akin to watching Lost where the island was just an island, no monsters, voices or mysteries associated with it- it would be just boring after a while and viewers would tune out.

Yes, becoming cold and setting up groups to fight against each other in this new lawless land is a very entertaining and important part of the show, but you still need the main mystery to rear its head every now and then and prove why these walkers are so dangerous- what causes the virus, how much of the world is left, is there a cure etc etc. These mysteries are just as important as the 2 main alpha leaders sneering at each other over a table and some whiskey..

pookiesboo

Is it just me or does David Morrisseys acting have a touch of the David Brent about it?

storker

pookiesboo wrote: »

Is it just me or does David Morrisseys acting have a touch of the David Brent about it?

Not sure how you see that, but it's certainly interesting to imagine Brent, Finchy and Gareth dropped into the Walking Dead universe...

Nervous Wreck

Grimebox wrote: »

Ha it was part of a Playboy special edition for some reason. A quick google came up with this

COMIC BOOK SPOILERS:

http://www.walkingdeadforums.com/forum/f144/michonne-origin-pages-playboy-magazine-2208.html

Wow, didn't know that! I am genius!

pookiesboo

storker wrote: »

Not sure how you see that, but it's certainly interesting to imagine Brent, Finchy and Gareth dropped into the Walking Dead universe...

Its just me then...il get my coat