Can rent be increased mid-way through a lease? We are part 4

uberalles · 11-03-2013 9:18am #1

Can the LL increase the rent 2.5 years into a part 4 tenancy or does be have to wait and do it by the year?

3DataModem · 11-03-2013 9:18am

He cab increase it to market value.

djimi · 11-03-2013 9:31am

Rent can be reviewed once every 12 months. If this is the first rent review (or there hasn't been one in the previous 12 months) then it's perfectly okay, and the rent cannot be reviewed again for another 12 months.

D3PO · 11-03-2013 9:36am

djimi wrote: »

Rent can be reviewed once every 12 months. If this is the first rent review (or there hasn't been one in the previous 12 months) then it's perfectly okay, and the rent cannot be reviewed again for another 12 months.

This.

uberalles · 11-03-2013 10:07am

djimi wrote: »

Rent can be reviewed once every 12 months. If this is the first rent review (or there hasn't been one in the previous 12 months) then it's perfectly okay, and the rent cannot be reviewed again for another 12 months.

"Perfectly ok" - what a country

D3PO · 11-03-2013 10:38am

uberalles wrote: »

"Perfectly ok" - what a country

why the hell wouldnt it be ok ? Once a year is once a year. Clueless landlords drive me nuts, clueless tenants are just as bad.

listermint · 11-03-2013 10:41am

D3PO wrote: »

why the hell wouldnt it be ok ? Once a year is once a year. Clueless landlords drive me nuts, clueless tenants are just as bad.

Well i suppose reviewing rent on lease renewal would be a more equitable system. Id imagine thats what the OP is implying.

Why would increasing the price of something mid contract make it fair ?

D3PO · 11-03-2013 10:46am

listermint wrote: »

Well i suppose reviewing rent on lease renewal would be a more equitable system. Id imagine thats what the OP is implying.

Why would increasing the price of something mid contract make it fair ?

mid contract. How can you be mid contract in a part 4 tenancy ?

The OP doesnt even understand the difference between a lease and part 4 going by their subject line.

Clearly the OP hasnt had a rent increase in at least 18 months otherwise they wouldnt query this "mid year" increase. I dont really know what their complaint is as a result as there is no mention that they believe the increased rent is out of kilter with the market rates.

The LL isnt running a charity, if the OP doesnt like it he/she can give their notice and find somewhere cheaper nobody is making them live there.

uberalles · 11-03-2013 10:49am

A rent negotiation can go three ways.

Up
Down
Or stay the same

Are you an upward only rent seeker?

A decision should be made once a year IMO and this doesn't necessarily mean upwards.

The problem with Ireland is rents fluctuate with supply and demand. The LL mortgage here is well paid on this old apartment. It's just greed at this stage if the rent goes up.

uberalles · 11-03-2013 10:52am

Here we go now. Pay whatever the rent increase is of F off somewhere else argument.

I dont mind paying a fair rent. I object to greed. Non stop greed

D3PO · 11-03-2013 10:57am

uberalles wrote: »

A rent negotiation can go three ways.

Up
Down
Or stay the same

Are you an upward only rent seeker?

A decision should be made once a year IMO and this doesn't necessarily mean upwards.

.

And he is doing this ONCE A YEAR. That doesnt mean January has to be when it happens it means ONCE EVERY TWELVE MONTHS so again what exactly is your problem as this is the once review that has been done in the 12 months ?

Am I an upward only rent seeker ? No but rent is driven by the market, if the LL is seeking an increase its because he believes the market can carry that increase just like you probably saw your rent decrease over the past few years.

djimi · 11-03-2013 11:33am

uberalles wrote: »

Here we go now. Pay whatever the rent increase is of F off somewhere else argument.

I dont mind paying a fair rent. I object to greed. Non stop greed

Is your query regarding how often the rent can be increased, or by how much it can be increased? Or are you just looking to vent?

If you want to query the rent increase then you can take a case against the landlord if you feel that the increase is unfair. The landlord cannot increase the rent beyond market rate (defined as "the rent which a willing tenant not already in occupation would give and a willing landlord would take for the dwelling" according to Citizens Information). While your case is being heard you can continue to pay the same rent as you are currently, however if you lose your case then you will be liable to repay the difference from the date of the original increase notice.

In a lot of cases the rent increase can be justified and you will have difficulty disputing it. Contact Threshold and they may be able to give you better advice about your specific situation.

uberalles · 11-03-2013 12:17pm

My point is this. A part 4 tenancy is sectioned by the year in a 4 year cycle. I find it strange that a rent increase/decrease can take place at any stage during that time. To me any change should be on the yearly anniversary of the sign date. That sounds right to me. That spounds fair.

I wouldn't expect a rent reduction 1.5 years into a part 4. Equally no one should look for an increase 2.8 years into a part 4. I expect any change to take place on the yearly anniversary date.

What do you think ?

Victor · 11-03-2013 12:27pm

Folks, less of the sharp comments, please.

Moderator

Rasmus · 11-03-2013 12:27pm

uberalles wrote: »

I wouldn't expect a rent reduction 1.5 years into a part 4. Equally no one should look for an increase 2.8 years into a part 4. I expect any change to take place on the yearly anniversary date.

What do you think ?

Don't think this makes sense at all. What's the 'anniversary' got to do with it? LL, by your timeline, has passed on two opportunities to raise the rent already (two twelve month markers) so he is well within his right to bump it up I'm afraid. Are you just looking for opinions that challenge the current system, or renting facts?

Scortho · 11-03-2013 12:41pm

uberalles wrote: »

Here we go now. Pay whatever the rent increase is of F off somewhere else argument.

I dont mind paying a fair rent. I object to greed. Non stop greed

On part 4 the landlord can only increase it once in every 12 months. Tell me what's wrong with that?

A fair rent is the market rate. He can't raise it to double the market rate and yes that would be unfair. But raising it in line with the market rate once every 12 months is fair and reasonable.

djimi · 11-03-2013 12:54pm

uberalles wrote: »

My point is this. A part 4 tenancy is sectioned by the year in a 4 year cycle. I find it strange that a rent increase/decrease can take place at any stage during that time. To me any change should be on the yearly anniversary of the sign date. That sounds right to me. That spounds fair.

I wouldn't expect a rent reduction 1.5 years into a part 4. Equally no one should look for an increase 2.8 years into a part 4. I expect any change to take place on the yearly anniversary date.

What do you think ?

The law says that the rent can be reviewed once in a 12 month period; thats all that matters.

If youre on a part 4 then I dont really see what difference it makes; if the landlord wants to look to increase the rent then it will have the same consequence to you whether it happens in January/March/June/August or whenever.

uberalles · 11-03-2013 12:57pm

Rasmus wrote: »

Don't think this makes sense at all. What's the 'anniversary' got to do with it? LL, by your timeline, has passed on two opportunities to raise the rent already (two twelve month markers) so he is well within his right to bump it up I'm afraid. Are you just looking for opinions that challenge the current system, or renting facts?

What I see as fair and the reality of renting in Ireland are two different things as I suspected.

A yearly "marker" as you call it (yearly anniversary of sign date as I was calling it ) is the only point of negotiation IMO.
If the LL passes on this event or the tenant doesnt chase a deduction then its the same for the next 12 months. Thats how I see it.

Renting in Ireland is leading me to despair to be honest. With no rent control its so unpredictable.

uberalles · 11-03-2013 1:00pm

djimi wrote: »

The law says that the rent can be reviewed once in a 12 month period; thats all that matters.

If youre on a part 4 then I dont really see what difference it makes; if the landlord wants to look to increase the rent then it will have the same consequence to you whether it happens in January/March/June/August or whenever.

Part 4 is a 4 year cycle agreement. 4 x 1 years. Its punctuated 4 times.
As a tenant that how I see it.

Scortho · 11-03-2013 1:01pm

uberalles wrote: »

What I see as fair and the reality of renting in Ireland are two different things as I suspected.

A yearly "marker" as you call it (yearly anniversary of sign date as I was calling it ) is the only point of negotiation IMO.
If the LL passes on this event or the tenant doesnt chase a deduction then its the same for the next 12 months. Thats how I see it.

Renting in Ireland is leading me to despair to be honest. With no rent control its so unpredictable.

But you have rent control. An increase is allowed once in every 12 months and must be to market level.
The fact that the landlord has decided to do it after 12 months has worked out even better for you as you got a rent lower than market rate for a number of months

D3PO · 11-03-2013 1:01pm

uberalles wrote: »

What I see as fair and the reality of renting in Ireland are two different things as I suspected.

A yearly "marker" as you call it (yearly anniversary of sign date as I was calling it ) is the only point of negotiation IMO.
If the LL passes on this event or the tenant doesnt chase a deduction then its the same for the next 12 months. Thats how I see it.

.

Problem is your opinion isnt worth anything. Legally hes entitled to do it. End of.

youcancallmeal · 11-03-2013 1:02pm

Can a landlord review the rent 12 months into a 2 year lease?

djimi · 11-03-2013 1:04pm

uberalles wrote: »

Part 4 is a 4 year cycle agreement. 4 x 1 years. Its punctuated 4 times.
As a tenant that how I see it.

Unfortunately it doesnt work like that; not for things like rent reviews anyway. The years come into play for things like notice periods, but for everything else a part 4 is just one 4 year cycle.

djimi · 11-03-2013 1:05pm

youcancallmeal wrote: »

Can a landlord review the rent 12 months into a 2 year lease?

Not if it is a fixed term lease, no.

youcancallmeal · 11-03-2013 1:14pm

djimi wrote: »

Not if it is a fixed term lease, no.

I see very good, I was getting confused with all the mentions of 12 months in this thread

djimi · 11-03-2013 1:33pm

OP if it bothers you that much then why dont you sign a yearly fixed term lease? At least that will give you the security of knowing when a review might happen, along with the security of knowing that you cant be asked to leave the property for any of the reasons that are laid out in the part 4 tenancy.

murphaph · 11-03-2013 5:42pm

uberalles wrote: »

Part 4 is a 4 year cycle agreement. 4 x 1 years. Its punctuated 4 times.
As a tenant that how I see it.

You're seeing it wrong though. What has 4 x 1 years got to do with anything?

The LL can alter the rent once every 12 months. If he alters it now, he can't alter it again for 12 months.

The system you propose would be unfair. Imagine a LL was admitted to hospital the day before your "alteration window" opened and released the day after. He wouldn't be able to write to you to inform you of the alteration, and would then lose out. He might just be on holiday or something.

I don't think the system is wildly different here in Germany. He is limited insofar as he can raise the rent by a maximum of 20% in any 36 month period, but he's not limited as to when those increases can be requested except that he cannot make a request for 15 months after the last one (in Ireland it's 12 months).

Where no indexation clause is included, a landlord may require the tenant to accept a rent increase to the rent level customary in an area, provided that the last increase of rent took place at least 15 months prior to the date when the increase is to take place. As a general rule, this type of rent increase is limited to 20% over three years. According to the law of Obligations 558, the landlord must state reasons for the rate increase, viz, expert opinion, three ‘sample’ rents charged for comparable properties, or show a so-called ‘qualified rent table’ (qualifizierter Mietenspiegel) or rental database – a statistical measure of rents issued by the local authorities and approved by landlord and tenant associations. The tenant has two months to accede to the demand; if he refuses, the landlord can sue.

http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/germany/Landlord-and-Tenant

....sooo, Ireland is close to being in line with the tenants' utopia of Germany.

Can rent be increased mid-way through a lease? We are part 4

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