New apartment attic space.

ZENER

Hi all !

Planning on buying an apartment in the near future and was wondering is it normal that the attic space above it belongs to the owner ? Planning on converting it to a new room so just wondered what the norm is.

Thanks

Paulw

Usually, you would have exclusive use of the attic space.

However, converting it would be a problem. The management company may not be able to allow you to convert it, due to planning regulations.

Even if you wanted to just floor the attic space for storage, you would require permission from the management company.

D3PO

doubtful you would own it. I would assume it would be owned by the Management Company.

Even if it were yours Id think you would have a very hard time getting Planning Permission.

athtrasna

Lots of potential problems as mentioned by the previous posters. The management company own the roof structures, beams and tiles so putting in ventilation/a skylight would not be possible without the permission of the MC. Also from a fire safety perspective there is unlikely to be enough space to put in a staircase to give proper evacuation safety.

Remember you don't buy an apartment, you have a long term lease. This limits the freedom you have to do with your own home what you want.

salmocab

unlikely you would be able to as there is structural work to be done which would definitely cause trouble with your management committee, however its all up to the committee not the management company as some people have suggested, the management company are only hired by the committee to run the day to day affairs and are only really the hired help. I know of one development that someone on the top floor added skylights to his apartment thru the attic space but he was the chair of the committee so probably had the extra sway. I certainly wouldn't buy based on the presumption that I could build that extra room, I would suspect that you will have a long and fruitless battle on your hands

jd

salmocab wrote: »

unlikely you would be able to as there is structural work to be done which would definitely cause trouble with your management committee, however its all up to the committee not the management company as some people have suggested, the management company are only hired by the committee to run the day to day affairs and are only really the hired help.

No it's the management company, not "the committee". The Owner's Management Company may hire a Management Agency to look after the day to day running of the development.

salmocab

sorry jd your right however it is the committee that needs to be got onside for this

RATM

I'd agree with others that it is a bad idea for you to buy the apartment with the thinking that you can covert the attic space because you'll likely be blocked by the committee.

However as someone mentioned getting yourself on the committee might be the way to go about it further down the road. You won't be the only owner occupier with attic space above them and you'll likely not be the only owner who has thought about it. Depending on the circumstances of the individual development and depending how well you can network amongst your neighbours who also have a vested interest in converting attic space (i.e. to increase the value of their property and the extra utility they'd get by having extra space) then one way to go about it is to bunch those owners together and go for a takeover of the committee. Like I said this really depending on the development, in my own place there are 200 units, i.e. 200 shareholders in the management company. At the last AGM only 7 people showed up, this is despite numerous complaints about management fees, the way it is run, etc. As is typical of Irish people we all love to complain but very few people are actually pro-active and will get up off their arse and do something about it. By being smart and assembling a small group of owners a takeover of the committee may not be all that difficult, at least in my own development it would be pretty easy.

Obviously this is not something that can happen overnight and it largely depends how interested/disinterested people in the development are in the running of the place. But if you have a situation like I do where only 7 people of 200 show up to the AGM then it is very much a possibility, albeit not a 100% guaranteed one. In advance of doing this you'd want to have a good look of the meminards & articles of association of the management company structure to figure out the way voting onto the committee is structured. But if people don't show up to AGM's and don't send a proxy in their place then a takeover is often just a matter of having more numbers there on the night than anyone else.

Lantus

ZENER wrote: »

Hi all !

Planning on buying an apartment in the near future and was wondering is it normal that the attic space above it belongs to the owner ? Planning on converting it to a new room so just wondered what the norm is.

Thanks

The short answer is almost certainly no. You may have a right of access assuming there is a loft hatch even within your property to store personal possessions but as others have said it is owned by the company and only they can affect changes. Even if you were to offer to pay for it all it is highly unlikley they would entertain such a proposal as the time impact and affect on block insurance and long term maintenenace would be a technical nightmare at best for even the most confident company director team.

There is ultimaley no good reason for the company to say yes. It doesn't benefit them and just adds work and money to peoples bills.

An apartment is essentially a fixed item and generally can never be altered in such a manner. If you want that level of expandability you need to buy a house with land or a convertable loft.

athtrasna

salmocab wrote: »

unlikely you would be able to as there is structural work to be done which would definitely cause trouble with your management committee, however its all up to the committee not the management company as some people have suggested, the management company are only hired by the committee to run the day to day affairs and are only really the hired help. I know of one development that someone on the top floor added skylights to his apartment thru the attic space but he was the chair of the committee so probably had the extra sway. I certainly wouldn't buy based on the presumption that I could build that extra room, I would suspect that you will have a long and fruitless battle on your hands

salmocab wrote: »

sorry jd your right however it is the committee that needs to be got onside for this

RATM wrote: »

I'd agree with others that it is a bad idea for you to buy the apartment with the thinking that you can covert the attic space because you'll likely be blocked by the committee.

However as someone mentioned getting yourself on the committee might be the way to go about it further down the road. You won't be the only owner occupier with attic space above them and you'll likely not be the only owner who has thought about it. Depending on the circumstances of the individual development and depending how well you can network amongst your neighbours who also have a vested interest in converting attic space (i.e. to increase the value of their property and the extra utility they'd get by having extra space) then one way to go about it is to bunch those owners together and go for a takeover of the committee. Like I said this really depending on the development, in my own place there are 200 units, i.e. 200 shareholders in the management company. At the last AGM only 7 people showed up, this is despite numerous complaints about management fees, the way it is run, etc. As is typical of Irish people we all love to complain but very few people are actually pro-active and will get up off their arse and do something about it. By being smart and assembling a small group of owners a takeover of the committee may not be all that difficult, at least in my own development it would be pretty easy.

Obviously this is not something that can happen overnight and it largely depends how interested/disinterested people in the development are in the running of the place. But if you have a situation like I do where only 7 people of 200 show up to the AGM then it is very much a possibility, albeit not a 100% guaranteed one. In advance of doing this you'd want to have a good look of the meminards & articles of association of the management company structure to figure out the way voting onto the committee is structured. But if people don't show up to AGM's and don't send a proxy in their place then a takeover is often just a matter of having more numbers there on the night than anyone else.

Lads it's not a committee. It's the board of directors of the management company, bound by the constraints of company law AND the multi unit development act to act within the best interests of the company ie all owners at all times. You can be legally charged if you seek to abuse your position in any way.

All members of the company are entitled to become directors of the company but it is a responsible position.

The planning permission obtained for the development in the first place may prohibit skylights as may the company insurance policy.

If you want to have the right to alter the physical structure of your home, buy a house

ZENER

I'll take that as a NO then ! I wasn't planning on buying just so I could convert the attic but thought it would make a useful extra room or study if it were possible. I've had a good look about the complex and I don't see any sky-lights or Velux windows so I guess it's unlikely I could sway the committee anyway.

Thanks for the replies lads, very informative as always !

Ken

seamus

I asked pretty much the exact same question recently and got some good leads to go look at it further.

Basically the attic space will not comprise part of your leasehold agreement, so at the most basic level the access right you have to the attic space is the same right you have to access the bin sheds outside.

This means that you can access it and you can put stuff in there, but you're not authorised to make any modifications to it. Storing your stuff there is a grey area, but as you have exclusive access to the attic, firstly who's going to know, but secondly there's no legal basis on which to stop you from storing stuff there.

Though you would obviously have to be careful not to store any potentially dangerous items - if you stored something which caused a fire, you could be sued by the insurance company and/or management company.

You can put flooring down, provided that you do not make any modifications. The big hardware stores provide tongue-in-groove chipboard flooring panels which you can lay down across the rafters and do not need to be screwed in or otherwise fixed in place. This is what I've done.
Likewise you can put in lighting provided that you don't screw anything in. Hang a light from an upper rafter using some cable ties to keep it all in place, and use an extension lead to provide power when you go into the attic.

In terms of convincing the management company to let you modify it and pay for it, you have to remember that the attic does not comprise part of your lease. The management company would have to transfer that part of the building into your lease, along with whatever legal and financial headaches that may involve. If they do it for free, they have to do it for everyone in top-floor apartments. Otherwise you have to pay for it and this may require changes to be registered with revenue or the planning department or whatever. It could work out quite expensive all in.

I don't think the block policy is that much of an issue in that regard so long as the work is carried out by accredited professionals and approved by the insurance company.