Aggressive Dog !!!!!!!!

GenuineFan

We are in a very sad house at the moment. My son (age 23) has a dog aged 10 months. The dogs mother is a cross between a retriever and a labrador and the the dogs father is a collie. She is a lovely dog but doesn't like anybody only the people living in the house. My son has taken her to obedience classes and to behaviour classes. She is great when she is good and she will obey you and do whatever you ask, but more often than not she does her own thing. She growls and barks and makes lunging movements to everyone except immediate family. My son took her to a grooming parlour last week and they had to ring him to come back and collect her, because she had terrified everyone and he said when he collected her she was growling at him. We have received complaints from the neighbours over the past few weeks, especially those walking by the house. We are afraid that she will harm someone. Please advise but we cant let this continue.

Whispered

In a case of aggression I wouldn't take advice from someone who hasn't seen the problem in action. - This includes advice you might get to have the dog PTS or give it away. If you speak to a qualified professional, they will be better placed to advise you. Can you have a behaviourist call to your house?

mav79

The dog is still very young, persevere with the classes and socialization if possible and a lot of exercise.

BillyMitchel

mav79 wrote: »

The dog is still very young, persevere with the classes and socialization if possible and a lot of exercise.

It's getting that and it's still lunging at people and growling at the owner. There's obviously problems it needs more than just that. Growling at its owner a big problem. As the another poster said its hard to say without first hand knowledge so get intouch with a professional ASAP and without sounding like an a.hole please dont just give the dog to someone and pass the problem on.

Best you and your family can do now is be 100% responsible for the people around the dog so an accident doesn't happen. Is the dog crate trained? Goes without saying really that exercise only on a lead too, muzzle mightn't be a bad idea either.

Aggression like that is beyond a dominance issue so get help ASAP.

Whispered

OP, please PLEASE get help from a professional. Suggestions to shock your dog are just as likely to cause further aggression. Have a look on the APDT website, they will point you in the right direction to find a behaviourist who uses only kind and scientifically sound methods.

I would also like to say that shock collars do not help with "behaviour training" they simply scare your dog into doing what you want. No actual training involved.

They are a lazy, selfish and cruel way to keep your dog under control.

I would also not recommend the residential training place and I'm not surprised that it has been mentioned in the same post as jokingly suggesting kicking your dog and seriously suggesting shocking him.

As for this

the minute he starts to even growl towards another dog I tell him to sit and stop, if he doesn't do this I use the vibrate. If he still doesn't listen to me I'll use the shock.

God help any dog who comes into contact with him should he escape or otherwise if you're not there with your little tool. You've taught him that not only are other dogs an indicator of correction and pain, but that he cannot display any signals to let them know to back off. He'll go from zero to full out attack and the other dog and owner would have had no warning what so ever.

kylith

Unfortunately I've also heard the opposite about those collars; they can make them associate other dogs with pain and cause them to attack even more ferociously. They are not something I would ever recommend without expert supervision.

Kloecor

Whispered wrote: »

OP, please PLEASE get help from a professional. Suggestions to shock your dog are just as likely to cause further aggression. Have a look on the APDT website, they will point you in the right direction to find a behaviourist who uses only kind and scientifically sound methods.

I would also like to say that shock collars do not help with "behaviour training" they simply scare your dog into doing what you want. No actual training involved.

They are a lazy, selfish and cruel way to keep your dog under control.

I would also not recommend the residential training place and I'm not surprised that it has been mentioned in the same post as jokingly suggesting kicking your dog and seriously suggesting shocking him.

As for this



God help any dog who comes into contact with him should he escape or otherwise if you're not there with your little tool. You've taught him that not only are other dogs an indicator of correction and pain, but that he cannot display any signals to let them know to back off. He'll go from zero to full out attack and the other dog and owner would have had no warning what so ever.

I totally understand where you're coming from. As I said, I have only ever used the actual "shock" once.... which was when he was actually pinning down another dog. He jumped straight off!

I only used the vibrate which caused him NO pain or harm. I would NEVER do that to any of my animals as I see them like my own children.

Now-a-days I don't have to use the collar at all anymore and he barely looks at other dogs as he knows it's not allowed anymore. We are both a lot happier on walks now!

The only reason I would suggest this sort of thing is these person are obviously out of options. I mean they've even brought the dog to professional trainers and it has not helped! It is better to use a collar than for this dog to end up being put down due to it's aggressive behaviour. All it takes is one bite and the dog could be put down.

Before I had my dog I was totally against these kind of training methods, but I aswell was desperate as I couldn't even bring my dog for a walk as he was too strong to hold back and it also made me very very nervous.

BillyMitchel

Do not under any circumstances use a shock collar when the dog has seen red and is trying to get in contact with another dog. The dog has already growled its owner, the dog will be back up the other end of the lead before you can say boo.

Kloecor

GenuineFan wrote: »

We are afraid that she will harm someone. Please advise but we cant let this continue.

Exactly!

Whispered

Kloecor wrote: »

I totally understand where you're coming from. As I said, I have only ever used the actual "shock" once.... which was when he was actually pinning down another dog. He jumped straight off!

I only used the vibrate which caused him NO pain or harm. I would NEVER do that to any of my animals as I see them like my own children.

No you obviously don't understand where I'm coming from at all. If you did understand you wouldn't continue to justify shocking a dog to get the behaviour you want.

By its very nature the only reason the collar works is because the dog knows it can cause pain. You compared your dog to a child, so tell me, would you be comfortable with your children living in fear of you hurting them if they didn't behave? Because that is what you are (probably unknowingly) doing to your dog.

I'm very glad that when your dog was pinning another dog down and you used the shock on his neck it worked for you, did you stop to think what might have happened if your dog thought it was the other dog hurting him? The response was *jump off* or *stop this dog from hurting me*, you're very lucky you got the response you wanted. It could have very easily escalated the situation.

Kloecor wrote: »

The only reason I would suggest this sort of thing is these person are obviously out of options. I mean they've even brought the dog to professional trainers and it has not helped! It is better to use a collar than for this dog to end up being put down due to it's aggressive behaviour. All it takes is one bite and the dog could be put down.

The OP is absolutely not out of options, not even close. General obedience training has very little to do with helping aggressive dogs. Yes it might teach you to get your dogs attention etc but would not get to the root of the problem.

Kloecor wrote: »

Before I had my dog I was totally against these kind of training methods, but I aswell was desperate as I couldn't even bring my dog for a walk as he was too strong to hold back and it also made me very very nervous.

A behaviourist could teach you how to handle your dog without resorting to harming him.

Jelly2

I agree that you shouldn't give up on the dog OP, and that it is quite possible to train her out of the habits. I am not an expert, but this dog sounds a lot like my friend's dog - when her dog was approximately the same age. Part of it is lack of confidence, I think, so I am not surprised that the dog was aggressive at the grooming parlour - she was out of her comfort zone. A good trainer should definitely be able to help you. Socialisation classes helped my friend's dog, and while she still can be a little nervous around strangers she is much better, and a lovely dog generally.

ShaShaBear

Good God, imagine the OP took this advice and gave the dog a shock every time it growled or lunged at a person!!! :rolleyes:
We'd have a badly mauled human within the week.

fatmammycat

Kloecor, with the best will in the world I don't think sending a frightened or aggressive dog away to be trained by strangers is the best advice. Training builds up a bond of trust and stability between a dog and an owner. It's vital and important work and you train a dog for life, not just for a few days.

Taltos

OP 2 bits of advice (well 3)

1. Get the dog to a vet to rule out anything medical - who knows the dog might be in pain or sore (may need x-rays to determine) and this can have a huge impact on their behaviour with others.
2. Get to a qualified professional behaviouralist asap - many are covered under pet insurance as it can be costly.
3. Get a muzzle - until you get to the root of this and deal with it don't let your dog outside without a muzzle on - sounds harsh but it might keep some people back and can sometimes have an effect on the dogs behaviour too.

Don't give up - might take hard work but you can turn this around. Going through something similar with one of mine - not socialised as a young pup, in pain and hyper-protective of the home (and me - but not my wife)...

anniehoo

Mod note: Ok Folks, the information posted about the use of a shock collar has been removed. Try and keep the thread OT thanks.

DBB

Kloecor wrote: »

There's a place you can send (and leave) your dog to professionals. They do behaviour training. It may be pricey but it's up to ye. Here's the website, [/url]

No. No, they don't do behaviour training. But yes, they are pricey.
To say they do behaviour training is disingenuous to those who are actually qualified to carry out behavioural training. Self-titled behaviourists are not behaviourists at all.

Highly dubious techniques which only inhibit your dog's aggressive behaviour are not used by qualified behaviourists. Techniques which only inhibit/suppress the problem behaviour can appear to work at first, but then the dog gets home, relaxes into his old routine, and starts showing the same aggressive behaviour again, except this time, probably worse because of the damage caused by the highly questionable methods used.

Inhibiting aggression is a highly dangerous ploy: it can look very impressive when you're being shown how wonderful your dog now is at the end of the overpriced training, because the dog is too shut down to attempt the behaviour in that setting. But he won't necessarily inhibit the behaviour in his home setting. And the BIG problem with inhibiting any behaviour is this: you're NOT inhibiting the underlying emotion.. it's still there, boiling up, and these emotions WILL explode to the surface given the right circumstances. This is extremely dangerous, but does not become obvious until your money has been handed over and some time has passed.

Au contraire, behavioural training, by someone who is actually qualified to carry out behavioural therapy, addresses the underlying emotional problem which is the cause of the aggressive behaviour... it gets right to the source of the problem. To do this requires just as comprehensive training and education for the practitioner as a psychiatrist requires to treat human emotional-behavioural problems, even down to recommending the prescription of appropriate behavioural drugs where appropriate, if necessary.
Very few people in Ireland have a recognised, 3rd level qualification in dog behaviour, and it is only those that have whose consults are covered by some insurance companies. But, because the field is not regulated, any old quack can call themselves a behaviourist... but a self-titled behaviourist is not a behaviourist. That's the bottom line.

These self-titled "behaviourists" always use the defence that "I've been doing this for years, I don't need a university to tell me how to do it". Well guess what? You do! Just like a human practitioner does: the fact that they refuse to step up to the mark and get a proper qualification just belies their own ignorance about how much they don't know.
And, contrary to the nonsense spouted by them, it is actually possible, *gasp*, for a qualified behaviourist to have just as much experience, maybe more, than they do! *GASP*!:eek:

As with pretty much all of these "Help, my dog is aggressive/just bit someone" threads, none of us know what's actually going on. Until we do (and we can't, unless we go and visit the OP at home), none of us can diagnose the problem, and NONE of us should be advising on how to treat it.
Which is why these threads always boil down to the same thing: OP, if you let us know where you're located, hopefully someone here can recommend a properly qualified behaviourist, as opposed to a quack, to address this problem with you and your dog, in your own home.

Kloecor

Sorry if I cause any offence to anyone. I would like to say that I did only ever use a VIBRATE collar and never cause my pets pain.

fatmammycat wrote: »

Kloecor, with the best will in the world I don't think sending a frightened or aggressive dog away to be trained by strangers is the best advice. Training builds up a bond of trust and stability between a dog and an owner. It's vital and important work and you train a dog for life, not just for a few days.

I actually didn't think of that. I train all my own dogs and it is all about trust and creating a strong bond and it's also very enjoyable for me and my dogs :-) I would now only recommend dog training when you and your pet are together with a professional. Thanks

Kloecor

Thanks DBB you've actually thought me a lot there as I've never been to a place like this nor do I know anyone who has so I.... really don't know anything about it. Only read the website and thought it sounded wonderful! I wouldn't actually send my own dogs here to be honest. Thanks!

boomerang

This sounds very like the situation I have been in with Boo all these years. A very nervous personality combined with poor socialisation. She acts out the very way you describe. It has been a long road with her but after an early mistake with a completely unqualified "trainer" I got fantastic guidance from Maureen Byrne of Dogs Behaving Badly and Tara Choules of Dog Training Ireland. Boo's behaviour is much better but it takes diligence and time to work on it.

Please, what ever you do, don't go to a "trainer" without first seeking a recommendation from APDT Ireland. I cannot tell you the damage done to Boo at those first training classes. It devastated her and made her behaviour so much worse.

DBB

Kloecor wrote: »

Thanks DBB you've actually thought me a lot there as I've never been to a place like this nor do I know anyone who has so I.... really don't know anything about it. Only read the website and thought it sounded wonderful! I wouldn't actually send my own dogs here to be honest. Thanks!

In truth, these types of websites were not always as.... carefully worded.
A lot of these establishments have learned to amend their website content to make it look all shiny, positive, ethical and nice.
As for qualifications, if someone says they're qualified, why would they not tell us exactly what this qualification is on their site? Surely that's important? I'd be wondering why we're not being told what the qualification is, what it means, who awarded it, who the external accreditation organisation is etc. If that sort of stuff isn't there, it raises a lot of questions, to my mind at any rate.
If they were up front about their practices, I'm not so sure they'd get many customers.
It's a minefield, it really is! But at the very least, I'd want a behaviourist, or a trainer for that matter, to be a member of a professional organisation that has reasonably stringent terms and conditions to gain membership. For trainers, the Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT) is an example, for behaviourists, without doubt the most respected in these lands is the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors (APBC).
Such organisations have Codes of Practice which the public can read, to satisfy themselves that the person they're employing to do stuff with their dog meets an acceptable level of knowledge, experience, accountability, and ethical practice. Not only that, but if that trainer/behaviourist falls short in reality, there is some sort of recourse via the professional organisation.

anniehoo

Kloecor wrote: »

Thanks DBB you've actually thought me a lot there as I've never been to a place like this nor do I know anyone who has so I.... really don't know anything about it. Only read the website and thought it sounded wonderful! I wouldn't actually send my own dogs here to be honest. Thanks!

And thank you Kloecor for being so humble and not dismissing a Mods intervention and responding the way some posters do with automatic hostility.So fair play for coming back and responding the way you have, hopefully having learned something from DBBs wisdom.

I snipped some of your post earlier because while "shock collars" are an outdated method of training, I was hoping that rather than being completely dismissive and argumentative with you, you'd read on and take on board more "positive" training methods.

Everday is a schoolday and all that....;)

JustRoss23

Hope you get sorted with your aggressive dog before it does harm so good advice here:)