pushy father

The Corinthian

The whole tangent on legal rights is a bit of a red herring, as it's been accepted for a while in this thread that he has none. My objection is that the speculation had reached such silliness that people were paining him as an asylum seeking Hannibal Lecter that you should cut contact with forever - or if not an asylum seeking Hannibal Lecter, that cutting of contact between a father and child for anything less is somehow a wise decision.

However, going back to your situation, he does appear to be playing some sort of game. Given this, this is not unusual in a situation where prospective father and mother can begin to see each other as adversaries, begin behaving and such and ironically make it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Bottom line is you do need to be clear, fair and steadfast with him. Agree to meet him but bring someone and let him know you'll be bringing someone along to make sure he does not try anything. When bringing that other party, try to bring someone with authority (that you ex will recognise, not necessarily literally) and who is good at listening and reading in-between the lines objectively. Their role is to do the following:

• To give you honest feedback (even if it goes against you) of what is going on between you and your ex - that it is honest is very important; you don't need someone there who'll just take your side, you want to know what the story is.
• As a chaperone, to tell your ex to back down if he starts to cause problems or overtly manipulate you.
• A witness, which hopefully you won't need in the future, but may, in court.
• Not to be an active participant in the discussion. This is between you and your ex, otherwise you're escalating things if you bring in reinforcements. They should only get involved if your ex 'misbehaves'.

You should meet in a public place and the discussion should be solely on your child. The only talk about the two of you is to underline that there is no two of you. The same goes if he brings up that he's going to have to leave the country or other problems - that's his problem not yours. Neither of you have a responsibility to look out for the other, only for your child.

Do however let him know that you want him in your child's life and are willing to work collaborative with him and are willing to compromise if he will on the specifics. However, a relationship is not open to discussion and neither will you tolerate any further harassment on this without you taking steps to stop it.

pwurple

The Corinthian wrote: »

There's not much a man can do to protect their 'interests'.

I was thinking only of not getting people deliberately pregnant unless you are married to them and thus legally protected. Or maybe not solely depending on the woman for contraception, that sort of thing. Protecting yourself that way. And when accidents do happen... As they will, maybe consider getting a solicitor and talking, thinking with the pregnant partner about long term, and what you both want to happen, instead of sticking the head in the sand and hoping it all works out. There is usually a bit of notice before a birth, it can be mostly sorted before then.

OP, i wish you luck, and the suggestion of bringing someone with you for this chat with him is a good one. Have you a family member or friend who is in a position that this man would see as authoratitive? A guard, priest, teacher, that kind of thing?

misspumpqueen

pwurple wrote: »

I was thinking only of not getting people deliberately pregnant unless you are married to them and thus legally protected. Or maybe not solely depending on the woman for contraception, that sort of thing. Protecting yourself that way. And when accidents do happen... As they will, maybe consider getting a solicitor and talking, thinking with the pregnant partner about long term, and what you both want to happen, instead of sticking the head in the sand and hoping it all works out. There is usually a bit of notice before a birth, it can be mostly sorted before then.

OP, i wish you luck, and the suggestion of bringing someone with you for this chat with him is a good one. Have you a family member or friend who is in a position that this man would see as authoratitive? A guard, priest, teacher, that kind of thing?

Hey, no unfortunately i don't have any relative in a postition like that, and to be honest, i wouldn't really want to get anyone else from my family involved. What I might do is go to the social worker, and then maybe make an appointment for us both to go, depending on what happens in the first meeting.

The Corinthian

misspumpqueen wrote: »

Hey, no unfortunately i don't have any relative in a postition like that, and to be honest, i wouldn't really want to get anyone else from my family involved. What I might do is go to the social worker, and then maybe make an appointment for us both to go, depending on what happens in the first meeting.

A male friend? I say male as I am speculating that coming from a non-EU country, your ex may be more patriarchal than normal. Be careful about bringing a professional, like a social worker, as you don't want to look as you're drawing up battle lines.

Big Bag of Chips

Until the baby is born you have no need to meet him. There is nothing that needs to be said face to face that can't be said in a text.

For now the only discussions you need to be having is what the baby will need, or what he might provide for when the baby is born.

When are you due, do you mind me asking?

The Corinthian

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

Until the baby is born you have no need to meet him. There is nothing that needs to be said face to face that can't be said in a text.

For now the only discussions you need to be having is what the baby will need, or what he might provide for when the baby is born.

Given that the OP wants him in their child's life, that's probably a bad way of going about it.

misspumpqueen

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

Until the baby is born you have no need to meet him. There is nothing that needs to be said face to face that can't be said in a text.

For now the only discussions you need to be having is what the baby will need, or what he might provide for when the baby is born.

When are you due, do you mind me asking?

The Corinthian wrote: »

Given that the OP wants him in their child's life, that's probably a bad way of going about it.

This is what I'm trying to decide what to do. He obviously can't take no for an answer, the most recent example being me telling him i will see him in a couple of weeks, then he just continues to ask can we meet today. It's getting beyond ridiculous. I feel now that he feels if he can't control me in a relationship, he's trying other ways. I'll repeat, he can not just take no for an answer.

@Corinthian, i thank you for everything you are saying here, but the bottom line still stands that if he doesn't stop this, he won't have any involvement in her life. Unless he can learn to respect my wishes, then there's no way i am keeping him in my life because he just causes me too much stress. If i am stressed about him, it is going to limit how much i can care for my baby, and that is the most important thing here.

@BBoC, I'm due in July, plenty of time to still talk about things, but he disagrees with me. I feel like there's no need to talk yet before i go to the social worker. I need to get an outside opinion that is not fuelled by emotions and fears. Then I will see what I am going to do.

Big Bag of Chips

The Corinthian wrote: »

Given that the OP wants him in their child's life, that's probably a bad way of going about it.

Why?

Meeting up with him is becoming very uncomfortable. He is not respecting her or her boundaries. He obviously wants to be part of the baby's life. She wants him to be part of the baby's life.. but the baby isn't here yet. So at the moment there is no need for constantly meeting.

I reread the OP, and see that you got pregnant in October. Which means the baby isn't due until July? I cannot see why you need regular meetings with someone you are not interested in a relationship with between now & July.

It is possible to be parents without being in constant contact. It is definitely possible to get through a pregnancy without being in constant contact. It just looks like he is using the pregnancy as a reason to stay in constant contact with you.

You will have a baby together. You are linked forever more to him. I don't see any harm in physically removing yourself from him until the baby arrives. You can be in contact through phone or email in the meantime.

Edit: cross posted with you, OP.

biko

I know some people in similar situations OP, let me know if you're in Galway and want to get in touch with them.

The Corinthian

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

Why?

Meeting up with him is becoming very uncomfortable. He is not respecting her or her boundaries. He obviously wants to be part of the baby's life. She wants him to be part of the baby's life.. but the baby isn't here yet. So at the moment there is no need for constantly meeting.

At the moment he is essentially cut out of the picture. He has no legal rights, no influence, no say whatsoever. Not an easy situation for anyone to be in.

Here, on the other hand, we're only speculating on his motivations - even the OP has admitted to this. It could be that he's just trying to scam his way to remaining in Ireland. It could also be that he is trying to regain some semblance of control over the situation and over his child - wanting to be with 'her' may only be his way of securing some paternity rights.

If the former is true, then I suspect that he'll have vanished long before the baby is born, regardless of what she does as ultimately she will not countenance a relationship with him, without which I doubt his visa situation would improve.

If the truth is closer to the latter, then cutting him out of the pregnancy and only speaking with him as far as he is a resource to draw on is going to increase this anxiety; essentially it'll increase the gulf between them and either make him more aggressive or drive him to just walk away and have nothing more with either mother or child.

Involving him and countering some of these anxieties would likely cause him to back off the 'relationship' approach, as he would no longer need this to have some influence - assuming, of course, this is why he's doing this in the first place. Truth is, as I said, we're all just speculating.

So if her aim to to try to keep him involved, then further alienating him will end up doing the opposite. This doesn't mean that they should be seeing each other on a daily or even weekly basis or unsupervised, but telling him to piss off until the baby's born at which point she's only interested in talking to see what she can get out of him, is definitely not going to encourage involvement.

@misspumpqueen: Getting an an outside opinion that is not fuelled by emotions and fears it absolutely what you need to do. But do try to get an informed one; an opinion from someone who's not met or spoken to him is not much use.

misspumpqueen

The Corinthian wrote: »

@misspumpqueen: Getting an an outside opinion that is not fuelled by emotions and fears it absolutely what you need to do. But do try to get an informed one; an opinion from someone who's not met or spoken to him is not much use.

Why not? As i've mentioned in my other posts, when he meets other people he is polite and quiet, far apart from the guy he is when he texts me or meets up with me. I think getting an outside opinion, from someone who has no emotional attachments to me or him, will help most as they will have a clearer idea of what is going on and be able to not get influenced by what he or myself says. The social worker may have experience of this already and ultimately will take the safety and well being of the child into account, not the parents emotions or feelings.

Big Bag of Chips

I'm not suggesting she tells him to piss off. Nor am I suggesting she only use him for what she can get out of him.

The hard truth is, for now, during the pregnancy she does not need him. She does not need to be in constant contact with him. If he is pushing contact because he is desperately afraid of losing access/rights whatever to his baby, then that is HIS problem.

She has told him, from what I can gather that she wants him in the child's life.. just that they will not be a couple. It is not her job to continue to reassure him and pacify him. He continues to push for a relationship that she doesn't want to happen. He needs to understand that it is his own actions that will force her to stay away from him.

This argument is going around in circles now. Any rights he wants will come into play once the baby is born. For now, he needs to get it into his head that there is not going to be a relationship. And if PHYSICALLY removing herself from him (while staying in limited contact through other means) is the only way she can get that through to him, then FOR NOW, that is what she needs to do.

misspumpqueen

The Corinthian wrote: »

So if her aim to to try to keep him involved, then further alienating him will end up doing the opposite. This doesn't mean that they should be seeing each other on a daily or even weekly basis or unsupervised, but telling him to piss off until the baby's born at which point she's only interested in talking to see what she can get out of him, is definitely not going to encourage involvement.

if you mean by getting money out of him, you're way off the case. i don't expect anything from this man in regards of payment. i understand that he may have to pay for maintenance but i don't expect it off him. i can't really tell him that he won't be involved and expect him to pay me. that's just outrageous. i am trying to get him to understand that he cannot force me, or anyone, to do what he wants. if he is told no, then that is it. i want him to back off, leave me alone in regards to us being together, and because he hasn't, then i am AFRAID of even trying to be friends with him. but i am going to try because i want my baby to have a father.

i am going to say this again. i want him to be in the baby's life, but that doesn't and shouldn't have to involve meeting up all the time, texting all the time, or inviting him to everything. It also shouldn't have to involve constantly telling him we can't be in a relationship. i am not meeting him soon because i want to get my head straight as to what is going to happen after she is born. not for any other reason.

i know you may think that what i'm doing is unfair, that is situation is awful, that he has no rights, but that's the way it is. i didn't ask for this. i would be glad to give him all the rights he deserves but only if he EARNS it. and at the moment he isn't.

i am not cutting him out of my life because i am a cold hearted b*tch. i have tried EVERYTHING to get through to him that i want him there for the baby, but not as a boyfriend. but he STILL hasn't got it. it's very hard for me having to CONSTANTLY let someone down, to have to constantly tell them you don't love them, and i do feel like a HORRIBLE person sometimes, but can you really put yourself in my position? i am 5 months pregnant, trying to keep myself healthy, happy and fit, but this man is dragging me down because he just cannot accept we are over. it's exhausting. i am trying to be fair, i understand he has rights to see her and everything else, but he has to earn that right. if he is hassling me constantly about getting back together, or living together or whatever, it's going to make me very reluctant to hand my baby over to him. if he was irish, i would feel the exact same way. it has nothing to do with race.

once again, i am trying my best here. it's really getting on top of me now because i'm being pulled two ways all the time. i wonder if i'm being too harsh on him, or if i'm doing the right thing. i won't know. and no one will know until the baby gets here. i probably went off on a bit of a tangent here, but i just am sick of having to explain my situation. i am NOT a bad person.

The Corinthian

misspumpqueen wrote: »

Why not?

Because otherwise they'll have as speculative opinion of the situation as we have here and that doesn't engender objective advice.

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

I'm not suggesting she tells him to piss off. Nor am I suggesting she only use him for what she can get out of him.

Well, it's what you wrote.

The hard truth is, for now, during the pregnancy she does not need him. She does not need to be in constant contact with him. If he is pushing contact because he is desperately afraid of losing access/rights whatever to his baby, then that is HIS problem.

Until being alienated so convinces him that he's better off vanishing, then it'll be hers, and the child's.

Don't get me wrong; I've consistently said that she should set boundaries and let him understand there are consistences to not respecting those boundaries, and that if she meets him at all, it should be supervised and focused on only the child. Or that it need not be all that frequent.

But let's not through the baby out with the bathwater, if you'll excuse the expression.

The Corinthian

misspumpqueen wrote: »

if you mean by getting money out of him, you're way off the case.

I never said this was your approach! I was just responding to something Big Bag of Chips suggested you say to him and how this would sound to any man in his situation - that he's only there as a resource, otherwise superfluous.

Honestly, I never accused you of anything and am fully aware that you're doing your best.

Big Bag of Chips

I would like you to reread what I actually wrote, and to not put your own spin on it.

I said FOR now, during the pregnancy she does not need to see him. This is in the context of every time she does see him he tries to force the relationship back on her.

Someone else posted that the only contact they need have is to discuss the baby.

I said they can be in contact, through text etc about what the baby needs (and I don't just mean financially... I mean access to her dad etc...) and what he might provide for when she is born. By this I DO mean what he can buy when the time comes.

Do most parents not talk about what they need to get for the baby? Prams, cots etc? Why should it be different for them because they are not together? The baby will still need the stuff.

Nowhere did I suggest that she tells him to piss off and just use him for what she can get, like you accused me of. So I would appreciate if you not twist my advice further.

Edit:

The Corinthian wrote: »

I was just responding to something Big Bag of Chips suggested you say to him

Where did I suggest she say anything to him? I suggested any contact they had should only be discuss the baby.. Meaning if HE contacts HER it should be to discuss the baby and what she needs/what he might provide. Not that she rings him up demanding things.

You're reading me all wrong, The Corinthian!

January

I suggest the both of you, The Corinthian and Big Bag of Chips, stop your sniping at each other and take it to PM if you want to carry on the current argument.

LegacyUser

Sorry to barge in here.

OP, you might keep in mind that he is from a different country, with a different language probably, maybe a different religion too, and very likely a different set of assumptions and expectations. All these differences are floating around, informing, and undercutting every conversational exchange you have. Always keep this in the back of your mind.

Feelings change. He will not be in love with you forever, but he will be your child's father forever. It may also transpire that once his feelings for you fade, his interest in the child will too. It's not an inevitability but it is a possibility and it does happen.

While this period is topsy turvy, be prepared for it to take a year or two to iron things out. It can take that long even between people who share the same background. Don't throw in the towel too soon. He no doubt will have a stronger interest in staying in the country if he has a child here. This of course can change too. If you want your child to know him, it is in your interest that he is able to stay in the country, so it kind of is your problem, unless you want to travel with your child to his home country, which will be expensive and troublesome. And that will be even more your problem.

What you want now is a peaceful pregnancy, you may or may not get it, not everyone does , though everyone should. Keep to your space, let him have his so he can move forward, and that also means not calling him for help, even when you are 8 months pregnant and carry the groceries or the car seat home from the shop because that would send a mixed message. It may also make him feel needed, which can be a good or bad thing, depending n how you look at it. Ask him if he has any ideas for names for the child, send your proposals to him too, and after the child is born and you have recovered from childbirth and gotten more stable and less tired, sort out a parenting plan with him.

If you do choose to involve a third party, choose someone you can both trust and relate to, otherwise you will make a big mess, particularly pick someone who understands both your cultures and languages. A third party can help, but also seriously backfire, so be wise with that.

Be good to yourself. You cannot get this time back or the time with your new baby, it goes and it's irretrievable, work together to make it the best you can. And good luck with your new blessing.

Queen-Mise

misspumpqueen wrote: »

once again, i am trying my best here. i am NOT a bad person.

Missus - you are most definitely NOT a bad person. You are trying to muddle though a messy situation and do the right thing by someone else, yourself and your unborn child.

That someone else has their agenda and is trying to do what they think is the right thing:eek:

Make sure to go over to the pregnancy forum and chat to some of the women there and use the support & also as a place to vent.
I hated being pregnant with a vengeance - the hormones, mood swings drove me nuts (and the people around me also.) You are dealing with this alone essentially - you may have support from your family, etc; but you are on your own doing it. Do not underestimate how hard that is.



I am going to ask some hard questions below - but I am a believer in facing the worst of our fears and saying them outright whatever they are. Very rarely, do they ever happen.

I think the father's nationality is very important in their situation. If they are in the EU - then it is no real problem then travelling back and forth to this country. Or even yours to theirs in a few years. The US, OZ, NZ, etc -although further and more expensive, travelling shouldn't be a problem.
This situation changes entirely for other nations.

Do you think that the father wants to be in a man/wife relationship rearing a child?

Does he want to be a Dad to a child and is terrified of you cutting of all contact?

Do you think OP that the father is looking for his name to be put on the birth certificate so he can begin to claim Irish residency (or some such thing)?

Is the father from a country - that if he kidnapped the child, it would be really hard to recover the child from?



Apologies for the last question - but that is the one that would plague my head. And there has been some horrific stories in the paper.

His behaviour hasn't been particularly reassuring either. There is not a lot you can do until you talk to the social worker. I would also be inclined to talk to a solicitor specialized in family law. You can always start the process of setting up some visitation rights.

Telling him this would achieve a few different things for the two of you
1) it would allay any fears of his that you were cutting him out of his child's life
2) it would make it forceful that the two of you are not a couple
3) You would find out your rights/ and follow your solicitors advice completely & implicitly

It is an interesting question the one you posed in your opening post OP. Did he in someway get your deliberately pregnant? It is a moot point now anyway, as you are pregnant.

How would you feel if your child was used by someone to gain residency in this country?
Would you be happy if he did gain residency, as then he would be here to play a part in his child's life and she would have a father?

Personally, I would be very uncomfortable being used like that, if it was the case.

Mind yourself OP - and remember you are pregnant. Reason and pregnancy are not usually in the same sentence.

Keep yourself mentally well. You will need all the strength you have over the coming six months. New born's are hard work.

misspumpqueen

Queen-Mise wrote: »

Missus - you are most definitely NOT a bad person. You are trying to muddle though a messy situation and do the right thing by someone else, yourself and your unborn child.

That someone else has their agenda and is trying to do what they think is the right thing:eek:

Make sure to go over to the pregnancy forum and chat to some of the women there and use the support & also as a place to vent.
I hated being pregnant with a vengeance - the hormones, mood swings drove me nuts (and the people around me also.) You are dealing with this alone essentially - you may have support from your family, etc; but you are on your own doing it. Do not underestimate how hard that is.



I am going to ask some hard questions below - but I am a believer in facing the worst of our fears and saying them outright whatever they are. Very rarely, do they ever happen.

I think the father's nationality is very important in their situation. If they are in the EU - then it is no real problem then travelling back and forth to this country. Or even yours to theirs in a few years. The US, OZ, NZ, etc -although further and more expensive, travelling shouldn't be a problem.
This situation changes entirely for other nations.

Do you think that the father wants to be in a man/wife relationship rearing a child?

Does he want to be a Dad to a child and is terrified of you cutting of all contact?

Do you think OP that the father is looking for his name to be put on the birth certificate so he can begin to claim Irish residency (or some such thing)?

Is the father from a country - that if he kidnapped the child, it would be really hard to recover the child from?



Apologies for the last question - but that is the one that would plague my head. And there has been some horrific stories in the paper.

His behaviour hasn't been particularly reassuring either. There is not a lot you can do until you talk to the social worker. I would also be inclined to talk to a solicitor specialized in family law. You can always start the process of setting up some visitation rights.

Telling him this would achieve a few different things for the two of you
1) it would allay any fears of his that you were cutting him out of his child's life
2) it would make it forceful that the two of you are not a couple
3) You would find out your rights/ and follow your solicitors advice completely & implicitly

It is an interesting question the one you posed in your opening post OP. Did he in someway get your deliberately pregnant? It is a moot point now anyway, as you are pregnant.

How would you feel if your child was used by someone to gain residency in this country?
Would you be happy if he did gain residency, as then he would be here to play a part in his child's life and she would have a father?

Personally, I would be very uncomfortable being used like that, if it was the case.

Mind yourself OP - and remember you are pregnant. Reason and pregnancy are not usually in the same sentence.

Keep yourself mentally well. You will need all the strength you have over the coming six months. New born's are hard work.

Thanks for your reply. A lot of the questions you have posted here are ones I've been asking myself. My parents ask them too.

I think he does want to be in a man/wife relationship, he said before he wanted to marry me, after only a few months. I said no automatically and that there was no way we were going to get married. Then he said about living together. Again, i said no. He obviously still thinks there is a chance and that must be why he isn't letting it go. My mum suggested that maybe someone is telling him i'm only acting like this because of the hormones, that when the baby is born it will be different, and perhaps he is being told this, and if that's the case, then i need to drill it in to him that nothing is EVER going to happen.
He's not from the EU, OZ, or USA. He is African. I won't say which country. And mods, i am not slamming him for being African. I am not against any race what so ever. I do worry about him kidnapping the child, I would worry no matter what nationality he was, it's just the way his attitude is, nothing to do with his race.
Tbh, I'm not sure if he is terrified of me cutting all contact. I don't know any of these answers, about getting legal citizenship or anything, because if i asked him, he would obviously deny it. I mentioned to him before that he doesn't get automatic citizenship here after having a baby, and he didn't like hearing that.
I am trying to look after myself. I know i should be staying calm for the baby but it all gets too much sometimes. One of the reasons I broke up with him was because i was suffering from mental health issues and couldnt deal being in a relationship. He hasn't taken any of this on board. This time next week I will have had the social worker meeting and hopefully will know a lot more. Thanks again.