Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

clairefontaine

I have come to the conclusion that the state does not want the people to be Irish speaking, if they did they would turn all schools into Irish schools and make all government documentation, including forms to fill out, done in Irish.

The policy is expensive tokenism towards some kind of nostalgia but they prefer the people to be English speaking.

marienbad

Coles wrote: »

I'm starting to think that your difficulties with the language has nothing to do with attitude after all!

So where are we. Wibbs and the gang can now accept the point I was making about English language literacy. Fine. We'll leave that there, shall we? It's actually not that important but I think it sheds a bit of light on the cognitive hurdles that people put in their own path when they disrespect another person's opinion. Me too, sure, but I'm dealing with it. And if anyone gets a chance to explain the maths thing to 'Leftist' you'll be doing us all a favour.

Is it worth diverting this thread back on topic to explore some of the actual State expense in supporting the Irish language? Maybe we could compare it to other State expenditure? Defense? Arts? Bank Bail-outs? Government advisers and PR contracts? Security costs and pensions of former Taoisigh (that's Irish for 'Prime Ministers') and other government Ministers?

I think we'll find the support is not all that significant. Also let's keep in mind the fact that people who have a good attitude towards the language typically are better educated and will therefore pay more taxes than the rest of you.

Lets compare then, and lets make it total costs. So since you raised it can you provide the figures ?

Coles

marienbad wrote: »

Lets compare then, and lets make it total costs. So since you raised it can you provide the figures ?

You guys wouldn't trust them. I'd be attacked and sneered at for 3 pages.

Maybe later.

Sierra 117

So you only have a problem with sneering when it's directed at you, but not when you were sneering throughout this thread.

marienbad

Coles wrote: »

You guys wouldn't trust them. I'd be attacked and sneered at for 3 pages.

Maybe later.

Maybe we might maybe we might not, just source them and there should'nt be a problem.

You raised the possibility so follow through on it .

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

clairefontaine wrote: »

I have come to the conclusion that the state does not want the people to be Irish speaking, if they did they would turn all schools into Irish schools and make all government documentation, including forms to fill out, done in Irish.

The policy is expensive tokenism towards some kind of nostalgia but they prefer the people to be English speaking.

The teaching of kids in English is tokenism? You mean common sense, surely! Or have I misread the post again?

The documentation is already in Irish.

clairefontaine

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

The teaching of kids in English is tokenism? You mean common sense, surely! Or have I misread the post again?

The documentation is already in Irish.

No I meant how they teach Irish is tokenistic. The project has obviously failed but they keep doing it.

But if you HAD to fill out the forms in Irish people would have to learn it.

marienbad

clairefontaine wrote: »

No I meant how they teach Irish is tokenistic. The project has obviously failed but they keep doing it.

But if you HAD to fill out the forms in Irish people would have to learn it.

But you are not advocating that as a serious policy surely ?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

clairefontaine wrote: »

No I meant how they teach Irish is tokenistic. The project has obviously failed but they keep doing it.

But if you HAD to fill out the forms in Irish people would have to learn it.

I'd agree with the first part, but I don't think it's intetnional

Why should you HAVE to fill out the forms in Irish?

Why should peopole HAVE to learn it?

The whole point of the exercise is to allow people to choose the lanaguge they deal with the State in as much as is practical, you're ideas go aaginst this. Ironically, the commisioner would be forced to step in.

clairefontaine

marienbad wrote: »

But you are not advocating that as a serious policy surely ?

No I am not.

What I am saying is that if they wanted the nation to speak Irish they would use different policies.

They obviously don't want it.

clairefontaine

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I'd agree with the first part, but I don't think it's intetnional

Why should you HAVE to fill out the forms in Irish?

Why should peopole HAVE to learn it?

The whole point of the exercise is to allow people to choose the lanaguge they deal with the State in as much as is practical, you're ideas go aaginst this. Ironically, the commisioner would be forced to step in.

I think it is intentional. Obviously the project has failed and continues to fail. People do what they want. If they wanted people speaking Irish they would have changed it.

marienbad

clairefontaine wrote: »

No I am not.

What I am saying is that if they wanted the nation to speak Irish they would use different policies.

They obviously don't want it.

I don't think it is as simple as that. I would say 99% of people want the language saved but are not interested in having it as the spoken language on a day to day basis. The advantages of speaking English are at this stage are insurmountable.

But to accept this position certain unpalatable home truths have to be acknowledged by the language enthusiasts , and as yet there is no sign of that happening. So we muddle on .

clairefontaine

marienbad wrote: »

I don't think it is as simple as that. I would say 99% of people want the language saved but are not interested in having it as the spoken language on a day to day basis. The advantages of speaking English are at this stage are insurmountable.

But to accept this position certain unpalatable home truths have to be acknowledged by the language enthusiasts , and as yet there is no sign of that happening. So we muddle on .

That would be called having your cake and eating it.

The only way to save a language is to speak it. No way around that.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

clairefontaine wrote: »

I think it is intentional. Obviously the project has failed and continues to fail. People do what they want. If they wanted people speaking Irish they would have changed it.

As is the choice of the people, right?

As someoen said, are you seriously suggesting they go ahead with this? Because if not, it's all a moot point.

clairefontaine

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

As is the choice of the people, right?

As someoen said, are you seriously suggesting they go ahead with this? Because if not, it's all a moot point.

No. I'm not saying what they should or should not do.

It's not my language, I have no connection with it, so I wouldn't decide for others on that.

But they need to eventually decide what they want, and scrap it altogether or do it right.

Because as it stands now, it's an expensive vanity project.

marienbad

clairefontaine wrote: »

That would be called having your cake and eating it.

The only way to save a language is to speak it. No way around that.

Right there is the fundamental mindset that has bedevilled the language movement .

In order to save it it is not necessary for everyone to speak it.

In fact you can have your cake and eat it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

clairefontaine wrote: »

No. I'm not saying what they should or should not do.

It's not my language, I have no connection with it, so I wouldn't decide for others on that.

But they need to eventually decide what they want, and scrap it altogether or do it right.

Because as it stands now, it's an expensive vanity project.

Ah okay, then. But the will of the people is a bilungial nation with neither langauge being forced upon anyone.

I don;t think we need to go down the route of immersion on a national level, but I do think we need to sort out once and for all what do we really want and what is achieveble. Also, what are the main things operating as obstacles to these goals?

johnolocher

I think the language should be protected, in the Gaeltacht, and rights upheld but I don't think this should extend to places where Irish isn't the community language. The guy who got 'arrested' in Dublin was an @sshole, the guard didnt speak Irish, but yet he refused to speak English. Why should every Guard be able to speak Irish, in an English speaking area? The point has been ignored in the media that the guy could have had a ticket and been on his way if he hadn't been a pedantic tw@t insisting on Irish. He probably did this too just because he thought the Guard wouldn't want the hassle & let him go. No, the Guard didnt have Irish and he couldn't have been expected too so it was only right, If the driver was insisting on Irish that he be taken to the station where they could arrange an Irish speaking Guard. It was the drivers right to seek Irish (although highly impractical in reality), but he can't expect the same level of service as English when the reality is the vast majority are not comfortable in Irish. The laws or constitution should be changed to reflect the reality not some cultural ideal.

Wibbs

Coles wrote: »

So where are we. Wibbs and the gang can now accept the point I was making about English language literacy. Fine.

Hardly. One report from one school area in Dubin hardly negates the point. The highest percentage of functional illiterates are found among the 55 year old and older age group. Few enough non nationals there. Country wide among the teenaged in 2010(when the OECD did the study), a quarter of sixteen year old boys were functionally illiterate. While there would be more non nationals in that group, given the percentage of non nationals countrywide, especially older kids you are still looking at the vast majority of those boys who would be Irish born and bred.

Is it worth diverting this thread back on topic to explore some of the actual State expense in supporting the Irish language? Maybe we could compare it to other State expenditure? Defense? Arts? Bank Bail-outs? Government advisers and PR contracts? Security costs and pensions of former Taoisigh (that's Irish for 'Prime Ministers') and other government Ministers?

I think we'll find the support is not all that significant.

In education of the language alone the cost is close to one billion per annum.
Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht 222 million for current expenditure for 2013, and €38 million for capital expenditure.
The TG4 budget(direct and indirect) came to 45 million in 2009

That's just for starters and doesn't include translation services, signage, Foras Teanga and state grants to Irish schools in Gaeltacht areas. But hey, lets exclude all that lot and say 1300 million. 1.3 Billion. The defence budget BTW is under 900 million. The arts? The arts council gets 60 million. Over a billion a year would be a nice chunk of change to not have to add into balancing our country's books.

Also let's keep in mind the fact that people who have a good attitude towards the language typically are better educated and will therefore pay more taxes than the rest of you.

Not this passive aggressive nonsense again surely?

clairefontaine wrote: »

The policy is expensive tokenism towards some kind of nostalgia but they prefer the people to be English speaking.

Yep cultural window dressing and bloody expensive window dressing with it.

PopePalpatine

Irish should be able to stand on its own legs when it comes to its own survival. Compulsory Irish up to the Leaving Cert is just keeping it on life support IMO.

Oh, and before Coles and the Gaeliban tell me that I'm a dumbass - Irish was the only Ordinary Level subject that I did in the Leaving Cert. I can speak German to a competent degree, so I'm not the stereotypical monolingual moron that Coles seemed to like to portray earlier in this thread.

Coles

Wibbs wrote: »

Hardly. One report from one school area in Dubin hardly negates the point.

Simple maths. Please refer back to post #634. It's just simple maths.

In education of the language alone the cost is close to one billion per annum.

A wikipedia link? Oh dear God. Could you please supply a link to the data so we can see what it includes and doesn't include.

Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht 222 million for current expenditure for 2013, and €38 million for capital expenditure.

You are aware that the DofAHG budget isn't spent on the Irish Language, right?

Let's see if we can find what does get spent supporting the Irish Language. It's actually on the same page that you linked to, but some how you missed it.

The Irish Language Support Schemes, which are part-financed with receipts from the National Lottery, have been cut by 25% for 2013, from €200,000 to €150,000. The objective of this programme of funding is to provide financial assistance to a range of organisations and activities that support the promotion of the Irish language outside the Gaeltacht.

The TG4 budget(direct and indirect) came to 45 million in 2009.

And their budget is composed of advertising revenue, program sales, a portion of TV licence money and a modest grant from the general budget. With that budget it creates skilled jobs, commissions programs, and supports the Arts and music sectors. TG4 is a television station that provides a service to the wider community, and while it the medium is through the Irish language it does not exclusively serve the Irish language community.

Over a billion a year would be a nice chunk of change to not have to add into balancing our country's books.

Sure. But where would you get the Billion from? Your figures have no substance.


So lets have a proper look at the numbers for the expenditure in promoting the Irish Language.

Foras na Gaeilge: €19.76m per annum
Foras had a budget of €19.76m in 2012, receiving 75 per cent of its funding from the State and 25 per cent from Northern Irish taxpayers.

Southern taxpayers pay €15 million.

It funds 19 organisations, including
Comhluadar, which provides support to parents or guardians who speak Irish to their children, was allocated €214,310 last year.
Cumann na bhFiann, which organises Irish language youth clubs. 2012 allocation: €450,954.
Gael Linn promotes Irish language and heritage. It was granted €588,139 through Foras na Gaeilge in 2012.
Conradh na Gaeilge promotes the language; it was granted €509,000 in 2012.
Comhar na Múinteoirí Gaeilge supports Irish teachers; it was granted €186,221 in 2012.
An tAoisanaid provides books and resources to Irish-medium schools in Northern Ireland; it was granted €351,766 in 2012.
abair.ie €439,194 was spent developing this Irish-language speech synthesiser.
Freagra, €15,000 per year is spent on a helpline for queries on the Irish language. TEG €420,813 to support NUI Maynooth ’s exam
system for adult learners of Irish.

Údarás na Gaeltachta: €40m per annum

This actually has nothing to do with promoting the Irish language and is rather a regional development organisation. The work done with this budget would otherwise need to be done under some other part of the government budget.

The regional authority responsible for the social, economic and cultural development of the Gaeltacht managed a budget of €40m in
2012. Its education and training section paid out over €24m between 2007 and 2011. Most of this money goes towards employment
training initiatives that provide Gaeltacht applicants with qualifications, skills and work experience; and also towards funding community
development programmes.
COGG: €1.55m per annum
COGG was established in 1998 to cater for the educational needs of Gaeltacht schools and Gaelscoileanna. The Government’s decision to
subsume COGG within the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment has generated considerable ill feeling in the Irish- language
sector. The annual figure includes €250,000 for a Foras na Gaeilge/Department of Education project.
Link

So that 's a total of €15 million.

Obviously there are costs in providing education, but even if the language was not 'compulsory' on the curriculum those costs would remain the same. Books still need to be commissioned and published. Classes would still need to be provided in every school so the savings to the exchequor would not be significant. The teachers would remain employed.

And guess how much the State spends on Irish translation costs? €1.8 million per annum. Link

opti0nal

Coles wrote: »

Obviously there are costs in providing education, but even if the language was not 'compulsory' on the curriculum those costs would remain the same.

But children would no longer be forced to speak Irish and the time saved could be applied to more educationally productive subjects. So, we'd eliminate language abuse of children and get better value for the money.

Coles wrote: »

And guess how much the State spends on Irish translation costs? €1.8 million per annum. Link

Translation is only part of the story. How much is spent maintaining a capability to prove Irish language services on demand of Irish language enthuiasts and how much will this cost increase to when the OLA is fully implemented?

Wibbs

Coles wrote: »

A wikipedia link? Oh dear God. Could you please supply a link to the data so we can see what it includes and doesn't include.

Well if you don't believe one of the founders of Limerick university, a man who knew more than either of us, then fair enough go right ahead.

You are aware that the DofAHG budget isn't spent on the Irish Language, right?

Let's see if we can find what does get spent supporting the Irish Language. It's actually on the same page that you linked to, but some how you missed it.

"The objective of this programme of funding is to provide financial assistance to a range of organisations and activities that support the promotion of the Irish language outside the Gaeltacht". You missed more.

And their budget is composed of advertising revenue, program sales, a portion of TV licence money and a modest grant from the general budget.

No you are incorrect. TG4 gets 30 million in direct funding from the government purse and the equivalent of 10 million in programming from RTE. . That was in 2007 BTW, their funding budget has gone up. The rest of their monies come from advertising revenue and programme sales. Unless you think 30 million is "modest".

Iwasfrozen

Coles wrote: »

And guess how much the State spends on Irish translation costs? €1.8 million per annum. Link

I don't know why you're highlighting the relatively small figure anyway. Any figure > 0 proves our point.

Coles

Wibbs wrote: »

Well if you don't believe one of the founders of Limerick university, a man who knew more than either of us, then fair enough go right ahead.

I want to know what he was referring to. I want to know how he arrived at his figures. That's a fair ask, no?

"The objective of this programme of funding is to provide financial assistance to a range of organisations and activities that support the promotion of the Irish language outside the Gaeltacht". You missed more.

Eh? What are you talking about? It's all in my last contribution.

No you are incorrect. TG4 gets 30 million in direct funding from the government purse and the equivalent of 10 million in programming from RTE. . That was in 2007 BTW, their funding budget has gone up. The rest of their monies come from advertising revenue and programme sales. Unless you think 30 million is "modest".

It is modest. They produce a huge amount of programmes that are shown right around the world. They are a massively respected TV channel both in Ireland and abroad, and they create a heap of very valuable employment. It's not as if the money is taken out to the backyard and burnt, is it? And as I said, while the medium is the Irish language, the quality of their programming is such that it attracts a far wider audience. The money is not spent on the Irish Language. It is spent providing a television service!

Coles

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't know why you're highlighting the relatively small figure anyway. Any figure > 0 proves our point.

I'd suggest you find something more serious to get stressed out about.

Lord TSC

Coles wrote: »

They are a massively respected TV channel both in Ireland and abroad.

Genuinely interested here (since I believe Ireland as a whole needs to develop more TV and take advantage of writers et al), but what shows have transfered overseas? How do you figure it's respected overseas? I wouldn't have imagined there's much of a market for Irish language programming overseas...

Iwasfrozen

Coles wrote: »

I'd suggest you find something more serious to get stressed out about.

A small waste of money is still a waste of money. And any waste of money is bad.

Coles

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Genuinely interested here (since I believe Ireland as a whole needs to develop more TV and take advantage of writers et al), but what shows have transfered overseas? How do you figure it's respected overseas? I wouldn't have imagined there's much of a market for Irish language programming overseas...

One from a few weeks ago...
IFTN 6th March 2013

Their documentaries are excellent and they travel extremely well. It seems odd to have to tell an Irish person about how good TG4 is.

clairefontaine

Coles wrote: »

I want to know what he was referring to. I want to know how he arrived at his figures. That's a fair ask, no?


Eh? What are you talking about? It's all in my last contribution.

It is modest. They produce a huge amount of programmes that are shown right around the world. They are a massively respected TV channel both in Ireland and abroad, and they create a heap of very valuable employment. It's not as if the money is taken out to the backyard and burnt, is it? And as I said, while the medium is the Irish language, the quality of their programming is such that it attracts a far wider audience. The money is not spent on the Irish Language. It is spent providing a television service!

Can you back that up, because all I can see from RTE is bought in American shows and a soap opera plus the news. And some sports. They export nothing.

What does TG4 export? Probably nothing either.

Coles

clairefontaine wrote: »

Can you back that up, because all I can see from RTE is bought in American shows and a soap opera plus the news. And some sports. They export nothing.

What does TG4 export? Probably nothing either.

TG4 commissions stuff specifically so that it might be exportable.

Here's a link to one.

And you're right about RTE. Complete sh!te.

Coles

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

A small waste of money is still a waste of money. And any waste of money is bad.

Here's one for you in today's paper. Dept of Justice paying 2 Million Euros rent for a building that can't be used. And it's a 25 year lease too!

Renting one empty building.:rolleyes:

Lord TSC

Coles wrote: »

One from a few weeks ago...
IFTN 6th March 2013

Their documentaries are excellent and they travel extremely well. It seems odd to have to tell an Irish person about how good TG4 is.

I love that even when I'm giving you a chance to promote Irish programming, you still have to resort to passive aggressive attacks on my "Irishness". :rolleyes:

Iwasfrozen

Coles wrote: »

Here's one for you in today's paper. Dept of Justice paying 2 Million Euros rent for a building that can't be used. And it's a 25 year lease too!

Renting one empty building.:rolleyes:

"It's ok if I kill one person because that other person killed five people and got away with it."
"It's ok If I waste 1.8 million because this other group is wasting 2 million."

For one who talks about education as if it defines someone's intelligence you don't seem to have a great grasp on the skills of logic.

opti0nal

Coles wrote:

they create a heap of very valuable employment. It's not as if the money is taken out to the backyard and burnt, is it? The money is not spent on the Irish Language.

Does it make a profit or is it yet another 'make work' welfare scheme for the Gaeltacht?

We already have two national TV channels plus one commercial one.

Why not sell off TG4 for nothing, but with a license requiring it to have 100% Irish language content? Let the Irish language community take ownership and control it? Given the huge support that is claimed, it should have no problem finding funding. It could then become a real force in promoting the Irish language?

I really don't understand why if Irish is so popular and 'the people want it', that we have to dump loads of money on it, force children to learn it and pass laws threatening prison on those who don't comply with the demands of Irish language enthusiasts.

VinLieger

Coles wrote: »

One from a few weeks ago...
IFTN 6th March 2013

Their documentaries are excellent and they travel extremely well. It seems odd to have to tell an Irish person about how good TG4 is.

Well mainly they just piss me off whenever im forced to watch rugby in irish, when will they get the message this isnt gonna make people want to learn irish to watch rugby it just gets them to mute the tv and turn on the radio

Coles

opti0nal wrote: »

Does it make a profit or is it yet another 'make work' welfare scheme for the Gaeltacht?

We already have two national TV channels plus one commercial one.

Does RTE make a profit? Should it be sold off so that it can be as sh!t as TV3. Tallafornia? Is that's where you're at?

Coles

VinLieger wrote: »

Well mainly they just piss me off whenever im forced to watch rugby in irish, when will they get the message this isnt gonna make people want to learn irish to watch rugby it just gets them to mute the tv and turn on the radio

That's really interesting. You should start a thread on it.

Coles

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

"It's ok if I kill one person because that other person killed five people and got away with it."
"It's ok If I waste 1.8 million because this other group is wasting 2 million."

Who said that? Could you provide a link please.

marienbad

Coles wrote: »

That's really interesting. You should start a thread on it.

For your info Coles I believe this is what most rugby fans do . And those that don't just turn it down to a kind of background hum.

Coles

marienbad wrote: »

For your info Coles I believe this is what most rugby fans do . And those that don't just turn it down to a kind of background hum.

I can't even imagine how you know that, but yet you are presenting it as fact. Oh look! A unicorn!

gobnaitolunacy

Coles wrote: »

I can't even imagine how you know that, but yet you are presenting it as fact. Oh look! A unicorn!

You're pretty good at hard facts yourself...:P


' I think we'll find the support is not all that significant. Also let's keep in mind the fact that people who have a good attitude towards the language typically are better educated and will therefore pay more taxes than the rest of you.'

Coles

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

You're pretty good at hard facts yourself...:P


' I think we'll find the support is not all that significant. Also let's keep in mind the fact that people who have a good attitude towards the language typically are better educated and will therefore pay more taxes than the rest of you.'

I've posted that NUI Maynooth report twice already...

gobnaitolunacy

Coles wrote: »

I've posted that NUI Maynooth report twice already...

Good for you, buddy.

Coles

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Good for you, buddy.

Thanks bud.

marienbad

Coles wrote: »

I can't even imagine how you know that, but yet you are presenting it as fact. Oh look! A unicorn!

Because it is a common topic of discussion amongst us rugby fans and I did say 'I believe'. Oh Look ! Another needlessly ignorant poster .

Coles

marienbad wrote: »

Because it is a common topic of discussion amongst us rugby fans and I did say 'I believe'. Oh Look ! Another needlessly ignorant poster .

Eh? I'm a rugby fan too! And so are all my friends and family adn it has never been a topic for discussion.
I bet you talk about it!

"Uggh! Listen to that yukky yukky filthy language! Oh dear Jesus! Turn it off! Uhhh. Yuk! Yukky language! Quick, drown it out!!"

marienbad

Coles wrote: »

Eh? I'm a rugby fan too! And so are all my friends and family adn it has never been a topic for discussion.
I bet you talk about it!

"Uggh! Listen to that yukky yukky filthy language! Oh dear Jesus! Turn it off! Uhhh. Yuk! Yukky language! Quick, drown it out!!"

Now you have had bit of help and advice to give your non Irish speaking friends and you don't even need to thank me.

kowloon

Coles wrote: »

TG4 commissions stuff specifically so that it might be exportable.

Here's a link to one.

And you're right about RTE. Complete sh!te.

The format was sold, not the original Irish show. It looks like TG4 are just being cut into a deal that was made between NBC and an independent documentary company, Tile Films. So to say TG4 are making TV with export in mind is stretching it a tad.

Someone made a comment about school books earlier. My thoughts on that: School books are a BS mini-industry. There was a decision made by some third level committee a while back that any book that was revised too often would be taken off reading lists. Barring an overhaul of the syllabus I think this would be a pretty good idea for schools. It won't happen though because it's a great money spinner. Not picking on Irish alone there, in fact the Maths stuff was the worst from what I've seen. [/off topic rant]

Iwasfrozen

Coles wrote: »

Who said that? Could you provide a link please.

I said it, to demonstrate your logical fallacy.