Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

Lord TSC

RE: The Gaelscoileannas...

Tbh, I think it's more attributed to a rise in the number of kids needing schooling than it is any desire to send kids to Irish schools over English ones.

To offer an example of my area, there was one primary school which was so full, they were literally having to turn kids away. A second opened, a Gaelscoil and it filled up very quickly, mainly down to the fact it could take most of the kids in the area who had to choose between it or a pretty hefty journey to the next school.

There's actually a severe shortage of schools at the moment, not helped by the fact more and more teachers are finding posts disappearing. At a time when the population requires extra schools, the Gaelscoils have provided that relief to the education sector, hence the growing "trend". I would imagine if figures could be found that it would be shown the trend was across ALL primary schools, not just the Irish-based ones...

ZeitgeistGlee

Lelantos wrote: »

Well describing Irish schools as a fad is clearly incorrect, the rest of your post doesn't concern me.

Prove it, using national examples (such as Coles's graph) rather than local ones. I could say the fact the Gaelscoil in my local area had less starting last September than they did the previous would perfectly indicates my point that interest in them is declining.

If Irish schools weren't a fad then how do you explain the stagnation in the numbers of schools opening in the last six years versus the twelve beforehand?

Lightbulb Sun wrote: »

Niche? Did you not read the points reiterated several times just recently in the thread about the demand for places in Irish schools?

200 out of 4200 (overall numbers of schools, English and Irish speaking) amounts to less than 5%, that's niche by definition.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Coles wrote: »

Cleaning them or selling lottery tickets?

Does it matter? According to you, all that's needed is the proximity.

If you were expected to fly the plane they would try to train you to do it. Like when you're educated in a school?

They may have expected it of me. I have no idea. Like primary school, they end not to communicate with me unless I do something wrong and I tend not to listen unless I need to.

Coles

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

Prove it, using national examples (such as Coles's graph) rather than local ones. I could say the fact the Gaelscoil in my local area had less starting last September than they did the previous would perfectly indicates my point that interest in them is declining.

If Irish schools weren't a fad then how do you explain the stagnation in the numbers of schools opening in the last six years versus the twelve beforehand?

200 out of 4200 (overall numbers of schools, English and Irish speaking) amounts to less than 5%, that's niche by definition.

Very interesting link.

It's all Department of Education data too.

Lightbulb Sun

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

Prove it, using national examples (such as Coles's graph) rather than local ones. I could say the fact the Gaelscoil in my local area had less starting last September than they did the previous would perfectly indicates my point that interest in them is declining.

If Irish schools weren't a fad then how do you explain the stagnation in the numbers of schools opening in the last six years versus the twelve beforehand?



200 out of 4200 (overall numbers of schools, English and Irish speaking) amounts to less than 5%, that's niche by definition.

It's relative to its spoken popularity as a language. My point was that it's not niche by demand.

You could say it's a fad, but after the Celtic Tiger years gaelscoileanna are still being built and are in demand.

The country being in a recession does not mean building schools in the Tiger era was a "fad". There isn't as much money there across the board regardless of the language spoken in the school.

ZeitgeistGlee

Coles wrote: »

It's all Department of Education data too.

And I'm sure you'll be perfectly happy to provide a link to that data that I can indepedently assess. :rolleyes:

opti0nal

Coles wrote: »

Very interesting link.

It's all Department of Education data too.

you've linked to a photo of a distressed schoolchild, forced to speak Irish....?
I

marienbad

Maybe I am just not great at reading graphs , but to me it seems that the number of schools seem to be a constant % over the decades,

Do we have actual numbers instead of graphics ?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

marienbad wrote: »

Maybe I am just not great at reading graphs , but to me it seems that the number of schools seem to be a constant % over the decades,

Do we have actual numbers instead of graphics ?

It also says "the reaction of boards.ie" over a number of years in about 60% of which boards.ie didn't exist. Even when he's trying to take the piss, he can't get it right!

Lelantos

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

RE: The Gaelscoileannas...

Tbh, I think it's more attributed to a rise in the number of kids needing schooling than it is any desire to send kids to Irish schools over English ones.

To offer an example of my area, there was one primary school which was so full, they were literally having to turn kids away. A second opened, a Gaelscoil and it filled up very quickly, mainly down to the fact it could take most of the kids in the area who had to choose between it or a pretty hefty journey to the next school.

There's actually a severe shortage of schools at the moment, not helped by the fact more and more teachers are finding posts disappearing. At a time when the population requires extra schools, the Gaelscoils have provided that relief to the education sector, hence the growing "trend". I would imagine if figures could be found that it would be shown the trend was across ALL primary schools, not just the Irish-based ones...

All I can say is that in my area, its the opposite. The secondary school is inundated with applicants every year, coming from non gaelscoileanna. It isn't because of overcrowding in other schools as the technical college nearly closed because of lack of numbers. The reality is, and I'm not getting involved in any stupid arguments, that the language is very popular here. Yes, Kerry has a Gaeltacht, it is a huge influence on people's thinking here re the language but a sizeable percentage of students attending the secondary come from ordinary schools. The secondary is increasing its first year intake by approx 12-15 students each year, which is remarkable since the school I attended over 20 years ago, which has a good academic history has actually dipped in numbers over the last 8-10 years. I suppose it does come down somewhat to geography, if you're based in crumlin, perhaps Irish & gaelscoileanna aren't high on your priority list, but if you're educated in more rural parts, yes it is. I'm not a fan of these threads as it gets very "west brit hates Ireland v stuck in the past, dead language advocate" A compromise has to be found, there is recently a sharp change in practice re learning Irish in primary schools. Children being familiarised with the spoken word, nothing written,nothing to be learned off by heart. Just familiarizing themselves with the sounds of the language, if this works, perhaps it could lead to a different outlook upon the language for the next generation.

Coles

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

It also says "the reaction of boards.ie" over a number of years in about 60% of which boards.ie didn't exist. Even when he's trying to take the piss, he can't get it right!

Does it? Where does it say that. If actually says 'Reaction on Boards.ie'.

Ouch.

But Hey! Let's discuss the graph.

Coles

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

And I'm sure you'll be perfectly happy to provide a link to that data that I can indepedently assess. :rolleyes:

Why the rolling eyes? I genuinely thought you and the gang would appreciate all the work I'm doing.

Anyhoo. The data is available from the Department of Education. If you need more help just shout.

Coles

Lelantos wrote: »

There is recently a sharp change in practice re learning Irish in primary schools. Children being familiarised with the spoken word, nothing written,nothing to be learned off by heart. Just familiarizing themselves with the sounds of the language, if this works, perhaps it could lead to a different outlook upon the language for the next generation.

+1. This is exactly it. I still think there is going to be a lot of resistance by a generation of parents who have a very poisonous attitude towards the language. Very difficult to overcome that, but they are becoming increasingly irrelevant.

Lord TSC

Lelantos wrote: »

there is recently a sharp change in practice re learning Irish in primary schools. Children being familiarised with the spoken word, nothing written,nothing to be learned off by heart. Just familiarizing themselves with the sounds of the language, if this works, perhaps it could lead to a different outlook upon the language for the next generation.

I think you'll find that many on "my side" of the argument have been advocating changes in the way it's taught, and you seem to be saying that those changes are already being implemented somewhat in your area, and working.

I hope this is true. You'll notice quite a few of us calling for changes to the way it's taught in schools (and being told all we have to change is our attitude, not the way it's taught). I personally agree that there needs to be more focus on the spoken word so am glad to hear that at least somewhere, someone has had the insight to start working towards a change...

Lelantos

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I think you'll find that many on "my side" of the argument have been advocating changes in the way it's taught, and you seem to be saying that those changes are already being implemented somewhat in your area, and working.

I hope this is true. You'll notice quite a few of us calling for changes to the way it's taught in schools (and being told all we have to change is our attitude, not the way it's taught). I personally agree that there needs to be more focus on the spoken word so am glad to hear that at least somewhere, someone has had the insight to start working towards a change...

I steer clear of the my side & your side issues, it does no good for my blood pressure
But, I think things like all gardai needing to be fluent in Irish as being silly, but, if you serve in a Gaeltacht area, yes, you have to be able to speak to the locals in their language. I come from an unusual enough background where I had no preconceptions passed onto me by my parents re Irish (positive or negative) I wasn't born here, but took to the language & loved learning it. Yes, I had some rubbish teachers, but I did so in other subjects too. It isn't the easiest language to learn admittedly, but I found it rewarding to do so. In my line of work I converse with native speakers, not because I have to, but because I want to. I even do so at home with my children, if I give them a drink, I'll say deoch as I hand it to them, it gives them an enjoyment of the language, they pick it up quickly enough, sponges soaking info & all that. Personally I hope the curriculum is changed to reflect where Irish should be going, as to where its been. The likes of Peig etc aren't going to capture anyones imagination anymore (if it ever did) There needs to be newer material, newer teaching methods ( like the Newell programme ) on English, make it interesting for kids, Christ, the last thing I want is for people to view Irish the same way I viewed Latin, an unbearable chore.

opti0nal

Lelantos wrote: »

Personally I hope the curriculum is changed to reflect where Irish should be going, as to where its been. The likes of Peig etc aren't going to capture anyones imagination anymore (if it ever did) There needs to be newer material, newer teaching methods...

As long as Irish is compulsory there is no incentive for the system to attract children to speaking or learning Irish. The classes are guaranteed to be full, no matter how awful the curriculum. Additionally, pupils who do wish to learn Irish will be held back by those who don't and who resent being forced to speak Irish.

An Coilean

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

You've posted that two or three times now and the general response has always been that the numbers shot up with the Celtic Tiger and then levelled off with the recession implying that Irish schools were just another fad during the good times rather than the grand Irish revival movement in full swing.

Actually, that is a myth.

The rate of new Gaelscoils opening was as high if not higher before the boom than during it, also the reason it leveled off around 2008 was that at that time the government flat out refused to open any more new Gaelscoils despite demand in several areas, their excuse was that they wanted to review the criteria for establishing a Gaelscoil, despite this one group went ahead and established a Gaelscoil without state support. The Government has since relented and allowed new Gaelscoileanna to be opened, despite stricter conditions being in place, new Gaelscoils opened this year and more will be opening next September, about a quarter of all new schools planned to open over the next few years will be Irish medium.

awec

An Coilean wrote: »

The guy really touched a nerve with you guys didn't he, the amount of petty abuse and name calling for simply choosing to speak Irish is shocking.

If people are turned of a language because of someone politely but firmly choosing to speak it, I very much doubt they had much interest in the first place.

I would have thought that speaking English with an English speaking Garda would just have been the decent thing to do (unless the guy couldn't actually speak English, which I doubt).

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Coles wrote: »

Does it? Where does it say that. If actually says 'Reaction on Boards.ie'.

Ouch.

But Hey! Let's discuss the graph.

You created it, we've every right to ridicule it!

opti0nal

An Coilean wrote: »

... new Gaelscoils opened this year and more will be opening next September, about a quarter of all new schools planned to open over the next few years will be Irish medium.

In the light of this development which provides for people who do wish their children to speak Irish, will it now be allowed that other children will no longer be forced into Irish language lessons?

An Coilean

opti0nal wrote: »

In the light of this development which provides for people who do wish their children to speak Irish, will it now be allowed that other children will no longer be forced into Irish language lessons?

I don't believe so no.

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

I don't believe so no.

Well that's a bit of a double standard. Forcing a language on children is bad don't cha think? Some would say cultural imperialism. :O

An Coilean

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well that's a bit of a double standard forcing a language on children is bad don't cha think? Some would say cultural imperialism. :O

If I was arguing that Irish speaking children should not be forced to learn English while at the same time arguing that English speaking children should be forced to learn Irish, then you might have a point, but I'm not and you don't.

BTW, I don't believe there is a rational argument that children learning a second or third language is ever a bad thing.

Coles

An Coilean wrote: »

BTW, I don't believe there is a rational argument that children learning a second or third language is ever a bad thing.

Indeed. And the younger they are exposed to different languages the better.

feargale

opti0nal wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with requiring an English-speaker to speak Englsh.

Is that intended to include a native Irish-speaker who has knowledge of English?

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

If I was arguing that Irish speaking children should not be forced to learn English while at the same time arguing that English speaking children should be forced to learn Irish, then you might have a point, but I'm not and you don't.

If monoglot Irish speakers existed you might have a point about me not having a point. As things stand English speaking children must learn Irish and neither the child or the child's parents have any say in the matter.

An Coilean wrote: »

BTW, I don't believe there is a rational argument that children learning a second or third language is ever a bad thing.

There is when they don't want to but you force it into them any way because of your own narrow cultural views. Speak Irish to your gealic heart's content but don't force it on other people.

Iwasfrozen

feargale wrote: »

Is that intended to include a native Irish-speaker who has knowledge of English?

Gone the way of the Argentavis my friend.

LordSutch

Lelantos wrote: »

. . . the last thing I want is for people to view Irish the same way I viewed Latin, an unbearable chore.

I think you've missed the boat on that one Lelantos, Irish has been a an unbearable chore to many tens of thousands of Irish people for
over eight decades now, hence threads like this one! add in the many negative responses from so many Irish people on this thread alone.

Solution; Make Irish a non mandatory subject "A La" Enda Kenny's little suggestion (pre the last election) > this will then attract the kids/parents who do wish to immerse their kids in the Irish language, whilst also keeping out those parents/kids who have little or no intererst in learning Irish.

Just like B&Q, Irish needs to be trimmed, downsized, and concentrated to insure its survival, and ultimately to make it stronger. Currently Irish is spread far too thinly across all pupils and in all schools, with the result that its as patchy as ever, and its still a 'cupla foca' situation for most out there, just as it has been since Irish was introduced in the 1930s, without any real concentration on learning/speaking of the language . . . .

PS, excuse the B&Q analogy )

An Coilean

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If monoglot Irish speakers existed you might have a point about me not having a point. As things stand English speaking children must learn Irish and neither the child or the child's parents have any say in the matter.

Well for one thing, monolingual Irish speakers do exist, some parents raise their kids through Irish only and let them learn English later in school.
Secondly their existence has no relevance to your claim that I had a double standard.

There is when they don't want to but you force it into them any way because of your own narrow cultural views. Speak Irish to your gealic heart's content but don't force it on other people.

Who have I ever forced to speak Irish?
The only narrow cultural view in this thread is the one where Ireland is supposed to be an English only speaking country where refusing to speak English is an arrestable offence.

Gone the way of the Argentavis my friend.

Are you serious????
There are thousands of Native Irish speakers in this country.

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

Well for one thing, monolingual Irish speakers do exist, some parents raise their kids through Irish only and let them learn English later in school.
Secondly their existence has no relevance to your claim that I had a double standard.

Oh please, there's no way a child could spend five years growing up in Ireland and not speak English. And yeah it pretty much does, if no monoglot irish children exist then no culture is being imposed on them. As we have it now the language and associated identity and culture is being imposed on impressionable monoglot English speaking children. But not the other way around hence double standard.

Let me tell you a story, way back when I was in primary school my teacher would always address me and my fellow border county class mates by the Irish language version of our name. Back at the time I never said anything because I was only a child but God help anyone who would do such a thing these days. Language goes way beyond being purely functional once you start to mess with people's identity and vision of themselves. It's only a small case but I think it points to something much more sinister among the gaelgeoiri. An attempt at cultural revision and to stamp out what they perceive as English influence in Ireland.

An Coilean wrote: »

Who have I ever forced to speak Irish?
The only narrow cultural view in this thread is the one where Ireland is supposed to be an English only speaking country where refusing to speak English is an arrestable offence.

He was not arrested for speaking Irish as has been pointed out to you many times, he was arrested because the guards could not identify him.

An Coilean wrote: »

Are you serious????
There are thousands of Native Irish speakers in this country.

Nah I was messing.

An Coilean

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Oh please, there's no way a child could spend five years growing up in Ireland and not speak English.

I know some of them, is it really so shocking? Ireland is not quite so English only as some of you would like to believe.

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

I know some of them, is it really so shocking? Ireland is not quite so English only as some of you would like to believe.

Don't believe it, sorry not calling you a liar but I don't see how any child could grow up in Ireland and not speak English. There's no liking either way, I'd learn whatever language I though would get me ahead. If France had invaded the UK during the seven years war we'd be speaking French now, so would Canada incidentally.

On another note, what ever happened to that campaign to get Irish on the self service checkouts in Tesco?

feargale

Coles wrote: »

What was particularly embarrassing was when earlier in the thread a Swedish boardsie didn't receive a word of thanks or encouragement for making the effort to learn the language, but was instead attacked and sneered at.

If 'twere thanks or encouragement or compliments I wanted, 'tisn't to this thread I'd be coming.

An Coilean

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Don't believe it, sorry not calling you a liar but I don't see how any child could grow up in Ireland and not speak English.

I don't really care what you can or cant see, its fact.
The vast majority of language contact young children get is with their parents. If both of them speak Irish to the child the they will get little exposure to English before going to school.
You really need to understand that Irish is not just a hobby to these people.

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

I don't really care what you can or cant see, its fact.
The vast majority of language contact young children get is with their parents. If both of them speak Irish to the child the they will get little exposure to English before going to school.
You really need to understand that Irish is not just a hobby to these people.

What about tv? And the outside world? Do these children not play with other children? Do they not go to playgroup?

feargale

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Gone the way of the Argentavis my friend.

You seem to have misread or misunderstood my question. I referred to native Irish-speakers with knowledge of English, NOT native speakers WITHOUT knowledge of English.

Iwasfrozen

feargale wrote: »

You seem to have misread or misunderstood my question. I referred to native Irish-speakers with knowledge of English, NOT native speakers WITHOUT knowledge of English.

I did, my mistake.

fasttalkerchat

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

'In one instance an Irish speaker who had been stopped for a minor road traffic matter in Dublin was arrested and detained until a garda was found to deal with him through Irish.'

FFS that's just being a dick.

He probably was just on the wind up. But, what if it was Connemara? In an Irish speaking region it would have been rude for the Garda to speak only English.
In Dublin, while English is the first language its still Ireland. Is it really that mental that someone opts only to use their national language?

feargale

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I did, my mistake.

So?

Iwasfrozen

feargale wrote: »

So?

so?

StewartGriffin

feargale wrote: »

So?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

so?

..and so it came to pass that the entirety of boards.ie realised its insignificance and ground to a terrible stalemate...

Iwasfrozen

StewartGriffin wrote: »

..and so it came to pass that the entirety of boards.ie realised its insignificance and ground to a terrible stalemate...

So?

feargale

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

so?

Can you respond to my question, now that you no longer misunderstand it. And it might be a good idea to include, if you can, the post of yours that prompted my question.

awec

An Coilean wrote: »

If I was arguing that Irish speaking children should not be forced to learn English while at the same time arguing that English speaking children should be forced to learn Irish, then you might have a point, but I'm not and you don't.

BTW, I don't believe there is a rational argument that children learning a second or third language is ever a bad thing.

Are you worried that without Irish being forced on children that it would die out completely as a spoken language everywhere on this island except the most ardent Gaeltacht areas?

feargale

StewartGriffin wrote: »

..and so it came to pass that the entirety of boards.ie realised its insignificance and ground to a terrible stalemate...

I suppose that's a perfectly understandable contribution from one most of whose posts are in a thread titled " The oldest celebrity you would bonk." Pe sceal e, ce hi an bhean? Coles cuir Gaeilge ar "bonk" mas e do thoil. Sorry, I have no accent/sine fada on my computer,

StewartGriffin

feargale wrote: »

I suppose that's a perfectly understandable contribution from one most of whose posts are in a thread titled " The oldest celebrity you would bonk." Pe sceal e, ce hi an bhean? Coles cuir Gaeilge ar "bonk" mas e do thoil. Sorry, I have no accent/sine fada on my computer,

My friend, since we are dealing with personal details, why is that you fear the gale so much? Remember the other pigs. Build a shelter from strong stone, not straw or twigs. Then you will be safe from the winds.

Iwasfrozen

feargale wrote: »

Can you respond to my question, now that you no longer misunderstand it. And it might be a good idea to include, if you can, the post of yours that prompted my question.

Now you're the one who got mixed up, me with Optional.

Iwasfrozen

feargale wrote: »

Sorry, I have no accent/sine fada on my computer,

It's ctrl + alt + the verb. ÁÉÍÓÚ.

opti0nal

An Coilean wrote: »

BTW, I don't believe there is a rational argument that children learning a second or third language is ever a bad thing.

But then, it would be reasonable that you would not deny giving the English-speaking child and its parents the choice to decide which other languages to learn and for Irish not to be one of them?

Mr Whirly

I always find it amusing that advocates of the Irish language tend to try and get their message across in the most abrasive fashion and then wonder why people have a hostile reaction.

I worked in a shop in Monkstown years ago and there was a Cumann na Something located around the corner. The attendees used to insist on speaking in Irish to the staff even though they hadn't a clue what they were saying. It got to the point where the staff would have to ignore them to serve other customers in the queue because they'd have to spend ages trying to figure out what they wanted.

They eventually got one of the teachers to come down to complain to me about the behaviour of the staff. She complained in english too. One of the most ridiculous conversations I've ever had with anyone.