Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

opti0nal

Mr Whirly wrote: »

I worked in a shop in Monkstown years ago and there was a Cumann na Something located around the corner. The attendees used to insist on speaking in Irish to the staff

The Irish language revival movement is obsessed with two rights: The right to speak Irish and the right to force others to do so.

gobnaitolunacy

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

He probably was just on the wind up. But, what if it was Connemara? In an Irish speaking region it would have been rude for the Garda to speak only English.
In Dublin, while English is the first language its still Ireland. Is it really that mental that someone opts only to use their national language?

(a) it didn't happen in the arse end of the Connemara Gaeltacht.
(b) its not as if he was totally incapable of communicating in any other way.
(c) if he was asking for assistance in a shop/directions/what time the next bus is, I wonder would he insist on the medium of Irish every time? I bloody doubt it very much, in Dublin a smack he'd be gettin'.

nesf

awec wrote: »

Are you worried that without Irish being forced on children that it would die out completely as a spoken language everywhere on this island except the most ardent Gaeltacht areas?

Irish being forced on people in schools doesn't help the language from dying out. I mean, seriously, sweet feck all people can string more than a basic sentence together for all their schooling.

nesf

An Coilean wrote: »

Well for one thing, monolingual Irish speakers do exist, some parents raise their kids through Irish only and let them learn English later in school.

They're not really monoglots in the sense that we normally use the word (i.e. adult speakers of only one language). There are some Welsh monoglots still around, Irish ones no.

nesf

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Oh please, there's no way a child could spend five years growing up in Ireland and not speak English.

Eh, no. As someone with two Irish speaking kids let me tell you it would be rather trivial if you lived in a Gaeltacht. You'd just have to be committed to doing it. Now I personally don't see the point in not bringing up the kids bilingually because they'll be learning English at some point anyway but each to their own I suppose.

An Coilean

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What about tv? And the outside world? Do these children not play with other children? Do they not go to playgroup?

TG4 do a fairly good range of childrens programs, but that said children don't really pick up a language from TV, at a young age its just background noise. Its from contact with actual people that they learn a language.


At a very young age, 0 - 18 months, children hardly ever play with other children unless they have brothers and sisters. At this stage, their contact with other people is with their parents for the vast majority of the time. By the time they do start having contact with other children in playgroups, their first language is already established. Even when they get to playing with other children, its not like there are no Irish language playgroups in the country.

nesf

An Coilean wrote: »

At a very young age, 0 - 18 months, no children hardly ever play with other children unless they have brothers and sisters. At this stage, their contact with other people is with their parents for the vast majority of the time. By the time they do start having contact with other children in playgroups, their first language is already established. Even when they get to playing with other children, its not like there are no Irish language playgroups in the country.

Both my kids are native Irish speakers, when they play together it's normally through English, when my daughter plays with her dolls, she talks to them through English. Outside of talking to my wife and her family they don't use Irish. The "primary" language gets overridden very quickly once their interactions in a certain area (here play) are primarily through English. This is normal for bilingual children.

Also with my son, he's older at six, if someone comes up to him (and he doesn't know/recognise them) and speaks Irish to him he'll respond in English for a good 10 minutes before switching over to Irish. He's so used to random people only speaking English that he defaults to that.

An Coilean

nesf wrote: »

Both my kids are native Irish speakers, when they play together it's normally through English, when my daughter plays with her dolls, she talks to them through English. Outside of talking to my wife and her family they don't use Irish. The "primary" language gets overridden very quickly once their interactions in a certain area (here play) are primarily through English. This is normal for bilingual children.

Also with my son, he's older at six, if someone comes up to him (and he doesn't know/recognise them) and speaks Irish to him he'll respond in English for a good 10 minutes before switching over to Irish. He's so used to random people only speaking English that he defaults to that.

You raised your children with Irish and English, fair play. While the children are fluent in both languages, one or the other will become the default language, though not always the same one for different areas. That is normal for bilingual families and is what you described above.

However that does not take away from the fact that there are families where the children do not have much English.

marienbad

An Coilean wrote: »

You raised your children with Irish and English, fair play. While the children are fluent in both languages, one or the other will become the default language, though not always the same one for different areas. That is normal for bilingual families and is what you described above.

However that does not take away from the fact that there are families where the children do not have much English.

How many such families are there now in the Ireland of today though ?

Lord TSC

I could well imagine there are people out there with no English, but I'd imagine they are very, very few in number, and decreasing with the passing years. Dara O'Briain (the comedian) talks about how his father only speaks Irish and he has to converse with him in it. I'd imagine that for children to only speak Irish nowadays, parents would have to make an effort to prevent their children from learning English, and I don't see why many would do that to be honest. But I do think it's conceivable.

Now, that said, I still think such people would be solely in the minority of the already minority group who can speak fluent Irish, and I don't think any agenda should be based on such a small, small group of people.

nesf

An Coilean wrote: »

However that does not take away from the fact that there are families where the children do not have much English.

In a Gaeltacht area I think that is quite appropriate, outside of a Gaeltacht I don't think it is. When those children go to school (or preschool through Irish) they won't be with other native speakers if you're outside the Gaeltacht. My son was the only native speaker in his class, he needed English to play and talk to the other students, the early years in a Gaelscoil are not solely through Irish after all.

That and there's no advantage to bringing the kids up solely through Irish anyway, just as there's no advantage to bringing them up solely through English. I recognise that it's a natural choice for two Irish native speakers to do this but I worry that they're doing their child a disservice by neglecting English when the child will very much need it early on in life if they live outside of a Gaeltacht.

nesf

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Now, that said, I still think such people would be solely in the minority of the already minority group who can speak fluent Irish, and I don't think any agenda should be based on such a small, small group of people.

What agenda?

gobnaitolunacy

nesf wrote: »

That and there's no advantage to bringing the kids up solely through Irish anyway, just as there's no advantage to bringing them up solely through English. I recognise that it's a natural choice for two Irish native speakers to do this but I worry that they're doing their child a disservice by neglecting English when the child will very much need it early on in life if they live outside of a Gaeltacht.

Wouldn't they need Irish to get all the 'grants' and to get them a nice job translating the myriad goverment docs that everyones going to read?

nesf

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Wouldn't they need Irish to get all the 'grants' and to get them a nice job translating the myriad goverment docs that everyones going to read?

Eh, I was saying they should be brought up bilingually.

An Coilean

nesf wrote: »

In a Gaeltacht area I think that is quite appropriate, outside of a Gaeltacht I don't think it is. When those children go to school (or preschool through Irish) they won't be with other native speakers if you're outside the Gaeltacht. My son was the only native speaker in his class, he needed English to play and talk to the other students, the early years in a Gaelscoil are not solely through Irish after all.

I don't think its inappropriate to raise your child through Irish anywhere in Ireland. You are right about sending your child to a Gaelscoil if you live outside the Gaeltacht though. Some parents actually say that their childs Irish got worse when they went to a Gaelscoil because of picking up broken Irish from other children.

Personally I would raise my child through Irish and then send them to an English medium school, at least at primary level, second language immersion with English being the second language.

nesf

An Coilean wrote: »

I don't think its inappropriate to raise your child through Irish anywhere in Ireland. You are right about sending your child to a Gaelscoil if you live outside the Gaeltacht though. Some parents actually say that their childs Irish got worse when they went to a Gaelscoil because of picking up broken Irish from other children.

Personally I would raise my child through Irish and then send them to an English medium school, at least at primary level, second language immersion with English being the second language.

My son apparently speaks three languages, English to me, Irish to Mommy and something like Irish at school.

VinLieger

The main crux of the argument that An Coileann and other irish language proponents (except for Coles who is seems to be just trolling at this stage) seem to be missing here is the other side of the argument arent asking for it to be scraped banned or whatever just for the entire way of thinking and teaching it to be overhauled as the current system is simply not working no matter how you look at it economically or educationally.
The census figures of 1.7 million are garbage and your deluding yourselves if you think otherwise which is sad as you obviously care a great deal about this issue.

What i think needs to happen is the language to be removed as a compulsory language and like the foreign languages it should be sold on its merits instead of forced on people who see no reason to learn it. The pro irish group has gotten lazy in the sense they havent ever had to sell it thanks to it always being compulsory and this may be one of the reasons theres such a sense of apathy towards it by a large part of the population.
My suggestion is to massively change the way its taught, remove it from being compulsory BUT give it incentives in the leaving cert like has been suggested with mathematics to improve its higher level uptake.

I dont want it banned or to die but i just think the attitude to it currently is completely wrong and i severely resent the pro groups arrogant and dissmissive attitude on here towards those of us arguing for change specifically Coles who claims because i dont want to speak a language and have no interest in learning it im not "really Irish"? Seriously where do you get the right or even the gall to suggest such a disgusting and reductive thing. I love Ireland, ive chosen to work for alot less by staying compared to going abroad because i dont want to leave this country so dont you dare try and suggest your "more Irish" than me simply because you can speak a language that was actively forced down my throat for 14 years while i constantly questioned why i needed it and was never given an answer

Coles

VinLieger wrote: »

...except for Coles who is seems to be just trolling at this stage...

I am the only person who has presented ANY facts on this entire thread.

...specifically Coles who claims because i dont want to speak a language and have no interest in learning it im not "really Irish"? Seriously where do you get the right or even the gall to suggest such a disgusting and reductive thing.

Perhaps you could provide a link to where I said that. I have stated that I think it's important for other Irish people to be tolerant and not to disrespect other strands of Irish culture, specifically Gaelic culture. That really doesn't seem to be that offensive to me? I can't imagine the English, French, Spanish or Germans would be as tolerant.

If I recall correctly the only person who claimed to be 'more Irish' than anyone else was Wibbs who claimed that his/her ancestors were living here during the Ice Age. Very unlikely, and quite silly too.

An Coilean

VinLieger wrote: »

The main crux of the argument that An Coileann and other irish language proponents seem to be missing here is the other side of the argument arent asking for it to be scraped banned or whatever just for the entire way of thinking and teaching it to be overhauled as the current system is simply not working no matter how you look at it economically or educationally.

What i think needs to happen is the language to be removed as a compulsory language and like the foreign languages it should be sold on its merits instead of forced on people who see no reason to learn it.

The other side want Irish to be made optional, regardless of the effect that will have on the language or the education system. It seems to me to be based on a dogmatic ideology rather than any evidence to show that it will improve the education system.
They also want the Official languages act and language commissioner to be scrapped, suggesting that they want Irish speakers to be treated as second class citizens in this country.

Personally I have criticized how Irish is taught for years and where possible have contributed my opinions on how to improve it, however there is no evidence that making it optional will do anything to improve it. Experience in other countries has clearly shown that making it optional will result in nothing more than people who would otherwise have learnt it not being given the opportunity to do so.

VinLieger

Coles wrote: »

Perhaps you could provide a link to where I said that.

Coles wrote: »

Another interesting question. I have a very open definition, but it's based on the person making a conscious choice. If they have chosen to identify themselves as Irish then that's good enough for me. I suppose it also requires an allegiance to the land and a respect for the native tradition, heritage and culture. I find most people who lack this really don't want to be considered 'Irish' and usually choose another identity. Like you guys.

I think thats pretty plain

VinLieger

An Coilean wrote: »

The other side want Irish to be made optional, regardless of the effect that will have on the language or the education system. It seems to me to be based on a dogmatic ideology rather than any evidence to show that it will improve the education system.
They also want the Official languages act and language commissioner to be scrapped, suggesting that they want Irish speakers to be treated as second class citizens in this country.

Personally I have criticized how Irish is taught for years and where possible have contributed my opinions on how to improve it, however there is no evidence that making it optional will do anything to improve it. Experience in other countries has clearly shown that making it optional will result in nothing more than people who would otherwise have learnt it not being given the opportunity to do so.

Well we have no evidence that the current system will improve the education system either in fact we have a few decades proving exactly the opposite. Maybe removing it from being compulsory wouldnt work but at this stage something needs to be done other than keeping our heads in the sand and sticking our fingers in our ears which yes you havent done but others like coles are actively participating in

1ZRed

Pilotdude5 wrote: »

Irish sounds like a cat choking on a hairball.

I will achieve my dream of "One species, one language" someday....

It only sounds that retarded because you haven't a hope of pronouncing anything even mildly close to how it should sound.

If anything is to go it's the ridiculous book Irish that's taught. Sounds absolutely terrible. That and Donegal Irish, pure gibberish.

marienbad

An Coilean wrote: »

The other side want Irish to be made optional, regardless of the effect that will have on the language or the education system. It seems to me to be based on a dogmatic ideology rather than any evidence to show that it will improve the education system.
They also want the Official languages act and language commissioner to be scrapped, suggesting that they want Irish speakers to be treated as second class citizens in this country.

Personally I have criticized how Irish is taught for years and where possible have contributed my opinions on how to improve it, however there is no evidence that making it optional will do anything to improve it. Experience in other countries has clearly shown that making it optional will result in nothing more than people who would otherwise have learnt it not being given the opportunity to do so.

This is the kind of blinkered thinking that has us where we are ?

Have you any evidence that makeing it optional would do as you you say ?

The only dogmatic ideology at play here is the blind adherace to compulsion.

The problem is ''that people that would otherwise have learnt it'' HAVE NOT learnt it !

why would scrapping the language commissioner make Irish Speakers second class citizens ?

Lord TSC

nesf wrote: »

What agenda?

Pushing Irish as a compulsory subject, insisting every document gets translated into Irish, insisting the Gardai should spend time and money learning Irish to please those awkward enough to insist on dealing with them through Irish, etc...

Basically, refusing to let everyone make the decision themselves as to the importance of the language, and forcing it on everyone regardless of their desires, despite the resentment this causes on multiple levels.

An Coilean wrote: »

Experience in other countries has clearly shown that making it optional will result in nothing more than people who would otherwise have learnt it not being given the opportunity to do so.

Could you provide a specific example of this happening please? Because I could easily also argue that those who wish to keep it compulsory are basing their argument "on a dogmatic ideology rather than any evidence to show that it will improve the education system."

Coles

VinLieger wrote: »

I think thats pretty plain

Eh? Is that offensive? You will note that I see it as a choice that people make.

I'm reminded of the guy who said that he's a Dublin man and therefore Irish is not his language. Selective identity. Dublin first, then Ireland. Other people reject their Irish identity in other ways. But they may as well be rejecting their blood type.

An Coilean

VinLieger wrote: »

Well we have no evidence that the current system will improve the education system either in fact we have a few decades proving exactly the opposite. Maybe removing it from being compulsory wouldnt work but at this stage something needs to be done other than keeping our heads in the sand and sticking our fingers in our ears which yes you havent done but others like coles are actively participating in

You are right, the current system is not working, that is something that has long been accepted, if anything the only people with their heads in the sand are the Dept. of Education.

There is supposed to be an in-depth review of the Irish curriculum at primary level ongoing that should address some concerns at that level, we will have to wait and see what changes will be implemented.

Mainstream Irish Language Organisations have been arguing for change in how Irish is taught for years. Just because the only thing reported on is opposition to making Irish optional doesn't mean that there have been no constructive suggestions on reform of the curriculum from our side.

marienbad

An Coilean wrote: »

You are right, the current system is not working, that is something that has long been accepted, if anything the only people with their heads in the sand are the Dept. of Education.

There is supposed to be an in-depth review of the Irish curriculum at primary level ongoing that should address some concerns at that level, we will have to wait and see what changes will be implemented.

Mainstream Irish Language Organisations have been arguing for change in how Irish is taught for years. Just because the only thing reported on is opposition to making Irish optional doesn't mean that there have been no constructive suggestions on reform of the curriculum from our side.

But why the obsession with compulsion ? That is a central plank of what has been a dismal failure ?

nesf

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Pushing Irish as a compulsory subject, insisting every document gets translated into Irish, insisting the Gardai should spend time and money learning Irish to please those awkward enough to insist on dealing with them through Irish, etc...

Basically, refusing to let everyone make the decision themselves as to the importance of the language, and forcing it on everyone regardless of their desires, despite the resentment this causes on multiple levels.

Documents have to be translated into Irish because people have a legal right to do business with the Government or the Law in Irish. I don't see this changing any time soon but equally I don't see any Irish speakers insisting on it, they don't have to, it's a legal thing.

Gardaí are unfortunately required by law to be able to deal with the public in Irish in all situations. Now the native speakers I know outside when outside of a Gaeltacht would always speak in English to the Gardaí rather than put one in a very uncomfortable spot. Inside the Gaeltacht where the Garda is known as an Irish speaker it'd be different. This isn't a general thing where Irish speakers are demanding the Gardaí speak to them only in Irish just the odd nutter in Dublin being a prick over something. It's a legal right but it isn't generally viewed as a realistic right as far as I can tell by most Irish speakers.

It's the education system not Irish speakers that force Irish on kids and with the large number of Irish teachers employed I don't see that changing any time soon for good or bad.

An Coilean

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Could you provide a specific example of this happening please? Because I could easily also argue that those who wish to keep it compulsory are basing their argument "on a dogmatic ideology rather than any evidence to show that it will improve the education system."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/aug/24/who-still-wants-learn-languages

Second language learning was made optional in England in 2004, it was a disaster.

Making languages optional was, O'Neill says, partly about improving access to education for the less able. Unfortunately, this was founded on "an illusion that a good education for children of fewer advantages is to introduce more choice

One of the many unintended results is that "the experience of other cultures is now confined to an elite

The reality is that those that demand that Irish be made optional have provided nothing more than opinion, there is no evidence that it will improve the education system or the teaching of Irish.

An Coilean

nesf wrote: »

Gardaí are unfortunately required by law to be able to deal with the public in Irish in all situations. Now the native speakers I know outside when outside of a Gaeltacht would always speak in English to the Gardaí rather than put one in a very uncomfortable spot.

This is the problem, by speaking Irish, you should not be putting anyone in a very uncomfortable spot, that is where the failure lies. There should be a procedure in place whereby Irish speakers can be dealt with effectively and fairly without anyone being made uncomfortable.

That is the role of An Coimisinéir Teanga, his job is to ensure that such procedures are put in place.

marienbad

An Coilean wrote: »

This is the problem, by speaking Irish, you should not be putting anyone in a very uncomfortable spot, that is where the failure lies. There should be a procedure in place whereby Irish speakers can be dealt with effectively and fairly without anyone being made uncomfortable.

That is the role of An Coimisinéir Teanga, his job is to ensure that such procedures are put in place.

You should not be putting anyone in an uncomfortable spot , but the reality is you are . That is the truth of the matter . And by insisting on your right you are just alienating more people in such recessionary times.

Who do you thing has come out of this incident looking the best.

Can I have an anser on the compulsion question please, thanks.

nesf

An Coilean wrote: »

This is the problem, by speaking Irish, you should not be putting anyone in a very uncomfortable spot, that is where the failure lies. There should be a procedure in place whereby Irish speakers can be dealt with effectively and fairly without anyone being made uncomfortable.

That is the role of An Coimisinéir Teanga, his job is to ensure that such procedures are put in place.

Ish, I think it's a bit unrealistic to expect two Gardaí at a random checkpoint to have one of them with good enough Irish to talk to someone well bearing in mind that the Irish speaker if they want to be a prick about it can start using complicated sentences or dialectical features to make life very difficult for that Garda to understand them if they don't have good Irish.

I mean, speaking a language to a good level, which is what is required for Gardaí to deal with the public as Gaeilge is not a "do a 6 week course" thing. You're talking about constant effort over years to get to a good level and for what, 2-3 interactions a year?

LordSutch

VinLieger wrote: »

What i think needs to happen is the language to be removed as a compulsory language and like the foreign languages it should be sold on its merits instead of forced on people who see no reason to learn it. The pro irish group has gotten lazy in the sense they havent ever had to sell it thanks to it always being compulsory and this may be one of the reasons theres such a sense of apathy towards it by a large part of the population.
My suggestion is to massively change the way its taught, remove it from being compulsory BUT give it incentives in the leaving cert like has been suggested with mathematics to improve its higher level uptake.

I dont want it banned or to die but i just think the attitude to it currently is completely wrong and i severely resent the pro groups arrogant and dissmissive attitude on here towards those of us arguing for change specifically Coles who claims because i dont want to speak a language and have no interest in learning it im not "really Irish"? Seriously where do you get the right or even the gall to suggest such a disgusting and reductive thing. I love Ireland, ive chosen to work for alot less by staying compared to going abroad because i dont want to leave this country so dont you dare try and suggest your "more Irish" than me simply because you can speak a language that was actively forced down my throat for 14 years while i constantly questioned why i needed it and was never given an answer

Well said, I think we are on a similar wavelength, and this is what I said way back in post#879.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83817123&postcount=879

gobnaitolunacy

An Coilean wrote: »

This is the problem, by speaking Irish, you should not be putting anyone in a very uncomfortable spot, that is where the failure lies. There should be a procedure in place whereby Irish speakers can be dealt with effectively and fairly without anyone being made uncomfortable.

That is the role of An Coimisinéir Teanga, his job is to ensure that such procedures are put in place.

Let's just throw more money at getting all Gardai up to Leaving Cert standard Irish instead of doing police work :rolleyes:

An Coilean

nesf wrote: »

Ish, I think it's a bit unrealistic to expect two Gardaí at a random checkpoint to have one of them with good enough Irish to talk to someone well bearing in mind that the Irish speaker if they want to be a prick about it can start using complicated sentences or dialectical features to make life very difficult for that Garda to understand them if they don't have good Irish.

I mean, speaking a language to a good level, which is what is required for Gardaí to deal with the public as Gaeilge is not a "do a 6 week course" thing. You're talking about constant effort over years to get to a good level and for what, 2-3 interactions a year?

No one is suggesting that every gagda be able to speak Irish to the necessary standard. There are 14,200 gardaí in the country, we can be fairly confident that some of them have fluent Irish. A reasonable procedure would be to have designated Gardaí who can be contacted to help the Garda at the scene over the phone in the case that the person wants to speak Irish and the Garda at the scene does not have the necessary level of Irish.

Providing a reasonable service in two languages is not beyond the Gardaí, police services all over the world manage it.

Lord TSC

nesf wrote: »

Documents have to be translated into Irish because people have a legal right to do business with the Government or the Law in Irish. I don't see this changing any time soon but equally I don't see any Irish speakers insisting on it, they don't have to, it's a legal thing.

Laws change, especially when they become mooted by reality. And the reality is that there's only going to be a minuscule handful of people who are unable to read legal documentation because they cannot speak English, but can only speak Irish. As such, it's a law which only exists to cater to the demands of the awkward, not the necessity of the people.

Gardaí are unfortunately required by law to be able to deal with the public in Irish in all situations. Now the native speakers I know outside when outside of a Gaeltacht would always speak in English to the Gardaí rather than put one in a very uncomfortable spot. Inside the Gaeltacht where the Garda is known as an Irish speaker it'd be different. This isn't a general thing where Irish speakers are demanding the Gardaí speak to them only in Irish just the odd nutter in Dublin being a prick over something. It's a legal right but it isn't generally viewed as a realistic right as far as I can tell by most Irish speakers.

True, but then why should the very small minority of vocal gaelgori be able to force the entire Gardai force to attend Irish classes? Once again, the law is for the "odd nutter", not for the public as a whole. While I agree officers in the Gaeltacht should be expected to speak Irish, it's completly unrealistic to expect every officer to facilitate the "odd nutter".

It's the education system not Irish speakers that force Irish on kids and with the large number of Irish teachers employed I don't see that changing any time soon for good or bad.

I disagree with this bit on a few levels. For one, I don't think it was the Irish teachers who were objecting to Kenny's proposals to make Irish optional, to the extent that they were on the streets marching. Even if it was, should the entire country be dictated by a group of teachers like that (and this is coming from a teacher). At a time when the government is looking for ways to cut teacher wages and such, the priorities do not seem to be keeping teacher employment opportunities high.

Furthermore, even if Irish was made optional, chances are it would still be mandatory in all schools up to Junior Cert (where, realistically, most subjects are mandatory anyway). As such, it's not as if every Irish teacher out there would find themselves sacked. Retaining forced language classes like that just to appease a few employees is not how the world works.

nesf wrote: »

I mean, speaking a language to a good level, which is what is required for Gardaí to deal with the public as Gaeilge is not a "do a 6 week course" thing. You're talking about constant effort over years to get to a good level and for what, 2-3 interactions a year?

It's also glossing over the fact that all these Gardai will have already done 14 years of Irish classes anyway. If someone has spent 14 years learning a language and still cannot conduct a basic "What is your name" conversation, then another 6 weeks of a course is not going to help much.

An Coilean wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/aug/24/who-still-wants-learn-languages
Second language learning was made optional in England in 2004, it was a disaster.

See, here's the thing. That article simply argues that schools and students should be studying a second language, but it does nothing to convince me that Irish should be that language. In fact, it's stressing how important French and German is on an economic and global level, arguments which I'd have been making for years.

In which case, why not make Irish optional in such a way that parents and students are told that a second language is compulsory, but they get to choose between Irish, French, German etc. If the arguement is just that a second language is important, why should that second language be nessecarily Irish? Why not allow people to choose what the compulsory subject is?

nesf

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

As such, it's a law which only exists to cater to the demands of the awkward, not the necessity of the people.

It's really a lot more than that, it's saying that Irish is considered equal to English in the eyes of the State. Now whether you agree with this stance or not is another thing.

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

True, but then why should the very small minority of vocal gaelgori be able to force the entire Gardai force to attend Irish classes? Once again, the law is for the "odd nutter", not for the public as a whole. While I agree officers in the Gaeltacht should be expected to speak Irish, it's completly unrealistic to expect every officer to facilitate the "odd nutter".

Because part of the above thing about legal documents extends to the Gardaí. It's an awkward situation, on one hand we want to say Irish is important, on the other we want to be realistic.

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I disagree with this bit on a few levels. For one, I don't think it was the Irish teachers who were objecting to Kenny's proposals to make Irish optional, to the extent that they were on the streets marching. Even if it was, should the entire country be dictated by a group of teachers like that (and this is coming from a teacher). At a time when the government is looking for ways to cut teacher wages and such, the priorities do not seem to be keeping teacher employment opportunities high.

Furthermore, even if Irish was made optional, chances are it would still be mandatory in all schools up to Junior Cert (where, realistically, most subjects are mandatory anyway). As such, it's not as if every Irish teacher out there would find themselves sacked. Retaining forced language classes like that just to appease a few employees is not how the world works.

Kenny was only making it optional for the LC cycle, since it's still required by the NUI colleges there'd be an appetite for it. Now make it optional from going into Second Level and I think you'd see serious resistance. As a teacher you know it is not trivial for a teacher to retrain to a new subject and be eligible to teach it to LC level.

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

It's also glossing over the fact that all these Gardai will have already done 14 years of Irish classes anyway. If someone has spent 14 years learning a language and still cannot conduct a basic "What is your name" conversation, then another 6 weeks of a course is not going to help much.

See here's the thing. That's 14 years of usually quite badly handled education. I came out of school more confident in German than Irish despite having a much smaller vocabulary in German because I was never taught grammar properly and I did Honours up until my Leaving. There's this idea out there that you can sit in class for 14 years and come out of it expecting to be able to speak it. It just doesn't work that way, languages don't work that way. Yes you get exceptional students who come out of Second Level with good Irish but these are unusual even amongst people signing on to do Irish at Third Level! The rest of us normal people who don't have a gift for languages would have to do a substantial amount of work on the language outside of class to develop a good standard. Learning a language is a lot of very hard, often boring, work. Most people suck when it comes to doing a lot of very hard, often boring, work even when they're paid to do it, never mind when it's for a language that most perceive as not being of use to them.

Dionysius2

nesf wrote: »

Irish being forced on people in schools doesn't help the language from dying out. I mean, seriously, sweet feck all people can string more than a basic sentence together for all their schooling.

Isn't it odd that even tho' the Irish languagage was thrust upon all right from the start of our national schooling that there was such blanket resistance (generally speaking) to it's acceptance ? What caused that mindset to exist ?
My belief is that the curriculum the authorities put in place was too very heavily overladen by the socalled 'scholars' who engineered the whole thing as if everyone was destined to feast on the salmon of knowledge and live life thereafter on some kind of aesthetic plane above and beyond the humdrum life of their forbears.

This approach wrecked the spontaneity of the young. The official insistence on teaching the grammar first before hardly anything else was grasped was the killer component. Kids of 5 or 6 know bugger all about grammar in the formal sense but it is clear to us all surely that they can use tenses correctly without much difficulty and therein lies the unrecognised fault which resulted in the rejection of the Irish langauge.

Iwasfrozen

nesf wrote: »

Kenny was only making it optional for the LC cycle, since it's still required by the NUI colleges there'd be an appetite for it. Now make it optional from going into Second Level and I think you'd see serious resistance. As a teacher you know it is not trivial for a teacher to retrain to a new subject and be eligible to teach it to LC level.

That's what you get when you set your livelihood around satisfying an artificial demand.

nesf

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's what you get when you set your livelihood around satisfying an artificial demand.

It's more problematic than that, it's Government led demand and only in the Government's power to take away. Complicating the matter hugely. Artificial demand from something like an asset bubble behaves very differently.

Iwasfrozen

nesf wrote: »

It's more problematic than that, it's Government led demand and only in the Government's power to take away. Complicating the matter hugely. Artificial demand from something like an asset bubble behaves very differently.

No one mentioned a bubble, the government artificially created these jobs when they forced students to suffer Irish. And Irish teachers capitalised on that. If the language is rightfully made optional and these teachers have to be retrained or dropped in droves I have no pity for them.

Lightbulb Sun

TeamShadowClan, "Odd Nutter?" What if a person wants to speak Irish? Since when did someone have to be a gaeltacht citizen in order to make it their primary language?

It doesn't matter whether someone is from Connemara or Tallaght, it's a national language and they are perfectly entitled to use it.

Iwasfrozen

Lightbulb Sun wrote: »

TeamShadowClan, "Odd Nutter?" What if a person wants to speak Irish? Since when did someone have to be a gaeltacht citizen in order to make it their primary language?

It doesn't matter whether someone is from Connemara or Tallaght, it's a national language and they are perfectly entitled to use it.

And what of the guards right to use English?

An Coilean

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And what of the guards right to use English?

They are a public servant, Ie they serve the public, not the other way around, in their own private life they have every right to speak English if they want to.

nesf

Lightbulb Sun wrote: »

TeamShadowClan, "Odd Nutter?" What if a person wants to speak Irish? Since when did someone have to be a gaeltacht citizen in order to make it their primary language?

It doesn't matter whether someone is from Connemara or Tallaght, it's a national language and they are perfectly entitled to use it.

Odd nutter was my usage and yes, I'd consider someone decidedly odd if they tried to force a Garda outside of the Gaeltacht to speak in Irish to them. It's very unreasonable.

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

They are a public servant, Ie they serve the public, not the other way around, in their own private life they have every right to speak English if they want to.

If language rights exist (and I'm not saying they do) since when did ones profession suspend their rights?

Lord TSC

Lightbulb Sun wrote: »

TeamShadowClan, "Odd Nutter?" What if a person wants to speak Irish? Since when did someone have to be a gaeltacht citizen in order to make it their primary language?

It doesn't matter whether someone is from Connemara or Tallaght, it's a national language and they are perfectly entitled to use it.

"odd nutter" was not my turn of phrase. It was the term used by the person I was replying too...

Of course everyone has a right to speak whatever language they want to, much in the same way everyone has a right not to have languages forced on them they don't want to.

An Coilean

nesf wrote: »

Odd nutter was my usage and yes, I'd consider someone decidedly odd if they tried to force a Garda outside of the Gaeltacht to speak in Irish to them. It's very unreasonable.

Ya and Rosa Parks could have just sat at the back of the bus, but she had to be unreasonable.

Stupid people standing up for their supposed rights, nutters the lot of them.

Chips Lovell

Rosa Parks? You're actually seriously making that comparison?

VinLieger

An Coilean wrote: »

Ya and Rosa Parks could have just sat at the back of the bus, but she had to be unreasonable.

Stupid people standing up for their supposed rights, nutters the lot of them.

LOL? Seriously? Comparing one man refusing to talk in English to a Gardai with Rosa Parks refusing to change seats? Your arguments just lost all merit