Scrap the Irish Language Commissioner

Lightbulb Sun

nesf wrote: »

Odd nutter was my usage and yes, I'd consider someone decidedly odd if they tried to force a Garda outside of the Gaeltacht to speak in Irish to them. It's very unreasonable.

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

"odd nutter" was not my turn of phrase. It was the term used by the person I was replying too...

Of course everyone has a right to speak whatever language they want to, much in the same way everyone has a right not to have languages forced on them they don't want to.

Apologies for the mix up there.

I just don't see how someone could be a "nutter" for speaking Irish in Ireland. If the garda can't speak Irish it's not the citizens problem.

nesf

An Coilean wrote: »

Ya and Rosa Parks could have just sat at the back of the bus, but she had to be unreasonable.

Stupid people standing up for their supposed rights, nutters the lot of them.

See, going on like this is exactly why you have legions of people lining up to take shots at ye in this thread. I want to see the Irish language grow and flourish, my kids, wife and in-laws all speak it as a primary language, I'm very much invested in it. What I don't think is that forcing Gardaí to speak it when they stop you in Dublin is going to help that happen. If anything it's going to make things even harder because it paints Irish speakers as unreasonable people trying to force what is a tiny minority language on the brink of extinction be treated like it was a common language in this country.

Iwasfrozen

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Rosa Parks? You're actually seriously making that comparison?

If Rosa Parks was a criminal it might be a better............ no sorry I can't finish that sentence.

Iwasfrozen

Lightbulb Sun wrote: »

I just don't see how someone could be a "nutter" for speaking Irish in Ireland. If the garda can't speak Irish it's not the citizens problem.

It is when he's arrested.

An Coilean

VinLieger wrote: »

LOL? Seriously? Comparing one man refusing to talk in English to a Gardai with Rosa Parks refusing to change seats? Your arguments just lost all merit

Is the comparrision really all that laughable? They are both relativly minor issues in their own right.

Are you really going to tell me that there werent plenty of people around at the time who would have called her a gob****e for what she did?
I'm sure there were plenty of Black people at the time who would have considered her an odd ball too.
Only through the prisim of the ensuing Civil Rights movement did attitudes change.

Its easy to dismiss civil rights you dont agree with and belittle those who stand up for them.

An Coilean

nesf wrote: »

See, going on like this is exactly why you have legions of people lining up to take shots at ye in this thread.

Maybe so, but there were legions of people lined up to take shots at Rosa Parks for her stand too, that does not mean she was wrong to make it.

You may not think that standing up for your language rights will help to improve the situation for the language in this country, but the Welsh language society has shown clearly that it is a very effective method.
Had they not made their stand, Welsh would not be where it is today.

nesf

An Coilean wrote: »

Maybe so, but there were legions of people lined up to take shots at Rosa Parks for her stand too, that does not mean she was wrong to make it.

Ye'll take the language down with ye, I hope ye know that.

An Coilean

nesf wrote: »

Ye'll take the language down with ye, I hope ye know that.

Plenty of people said that in Wales 50 years ago, it did'nt happen there, it won't happen here.
I suggest you have a look at what Saunders Lewis had to say about Welsh, then see how following his advice worked for Welsh and see what we might learn from that and apply it to Irish today.

nesf

An Coilean wrote: »

Plenty of people said that in Wales 50 years ago, it did'nt happen there, it won't happen here.
I suggest you have a look at what Saunders Lewis had to say about Welsh, then see how following his advice worked for Welsh and see what we might learn from that and apply it to Irish today.

Welsh was never in the danger that Irish is.


Look at what they do in Wales, they grab them at 3, they start teaching them Welsh at that point almost totally by native speakers teaching correct Welsh. This is the kind of thing you do if you want bilingualism. You don't start at 5 or later when it's potentially too late. We have Naoinraí but they are few and far between.

This is the kind of thing you should be getting worked up about, not whether the Gardaí speak Irish to you or not. Give the next generation a decent chance to speak the language and you'll do an awful lot more than making a fuss over procedure amongst the Gardaí ever will.

An Coilean

nesf wrote: »

Welsh was never in the danger that Irish is.


Look at what they do in Wales, they grab them at 3, they start teaching them Welsh at that point almost totally by native speakers teaching correct Welsh. This is the kind of thing you do if you want bilingualism. You don't start at 5 or later when it's potentially too late. We have Naoinraí but they are few and far between.

This is the kind of thing you should be getting worked up about, not whether the Gardaí speak Irish to you or not. Give the next generation a decent chance to speak the language and you'll do an awful lot more than making a fuss over procedure amongst the Gardaí ever will.

I'll make it easy for you, Saunders Lewis speaking in 1962 said of Welsh:

There have been enormous social changes in Wales in the last quarter of a century. Welsh in Wales is now a language in retreat, the language of a minority, and that a decreasing minority.

If Wales seriously demanded to have Welsh as an official language on a par with English, the opposition would not come from the Government or from the Civil Service. Naturally there would be a few muttered curses from clerks looking for a dictionary and from girl typists who were learning to spell, but their Civil Service has long since learnt to accept revolutionary changes in the British Empire as part of the daily routine. The opposition - harsh, vindictive and violent - would come from Wales.

Is the position hopeless? It is, of course, if we are content to give up hope. There is nothing in the world more comfortable than to give up hope. For then one can go on to enjoy life.

Let us set about it in seriousness and without hesitation to make it impossible for the business of local and central government to continue without using Welsh. Let it be insisted upon that the rate demand should be in Welsh or in Welsh and English. Let the Postmaster-General be warned that annual licences will not be paid unless they are obtainable in Welsh. Let it be insisted upon that every summons to a court should be in Welsh. This is not a chance policy for individuals here and there. It would demand organizing and moving step by step, giving due warning and allowing time for changes. It is a policy for a movement, and that a movement in the areas where Welsh is the spoken language in daily use. Let it be demanded that every election communication and every oflicial form relating to local or parliamentary elections should be in Welsh. Let Welsh be raised as the chief administrative issue in district and county.

Perhaps you will say that this could never be done, that not enough Welshmen could be found to agree and to organize it as a campaign of importance and strength. Perhaps you are right. All I maintain is that this is the only political matter which it is worth a Welshman's while to trouble himself about today. I know the difficulties. There would be storms from every direction. It would be argued that such a campaign was killing our chances of attracting English factories to the Welsh-speaking rural areas, and that would doubtless be the case. It is easy to predict that the scorn and sneers of the English gutter journalist would be a daily burden. The anger of local authority officials and those of many county councils would be like the blustering of those in the Llanelli Rural District. Fines in courts would be heavy, and a refusal to pay them would bring expensive consequences, though no more expensive than fighting purposeless parliamentary elections. I do not deny that there would be a period of hatred, persecution and controversy in place of the brotherly love which is so manifest in Welsh political life today. It will be nothing less than a revolution to restore the Welsh language in Wales. Success is only possible through revolutionary methods.

The Welsh Language society was founded soon after that speach was broadcast and they have been fighting for Welsh, and being sent to Jail at times for their trouble for the last 50 years. Welsh is not in the situation that Irish is in today because of their stand.

nesf

An Coilean wrote: »

I'll make it easy for you, Saunders Lewis speaking in 1962 said of Welsh:

He was speaking when primary speakers of Welsh were around 26% and some individual counties averaged 75% between them, with far lower rates in other counties. That ship has long sailed for us, we have to adopt a very different strategy to what he did resistance wise. The estimates of people who use Irish in this country as a community and home language are around the 3% mark. True native speakers are estimated to number between 40 and 80 thousand depending on how you count due to activity with the language. These are tiny, tiny numbers to be building off of. Self reported levels of fluency are meant to about 7.8% but really I don't trust this number, far too many people are prone to overselling their abilities in these kinds of surveys and if you don't live in an Irish speaking community it's very hard for you to judge what your level of fluency as a speaker is anyway.

Let us set about it in seriousness and without hesitation to make it impossible for the business of local and central government to continue without using Welsh. Let it be insisted upon that the rate demand should be in Welsh or in Welsh and English. Let the Postmaster-General be warned that annual licences will not be paid unless they are obtainable in Welsh. Let it be insisted upon that every summons to a court should be in Welsh. This is not a chance policy for individuals here and there. It would demand organizing and moving step by step, giving due warning and allowing time for changes. It is a policy for a movement, and that a movement in the areas where Welsh is the spoken language in daily use. Let it be demanded that every election communication and every oflicial form relating to local or parliamentary elections should be in Welsh. Let Welsh be raised as the chief administrative issue in district and county.

We've had the above since nearly the foundation of the State. In case you hadn't noticed, we've had dropping speaker numbers since so the above isn't exactly a magic bullet.

Coles

nesf wrote: »

This is the kind of thing you should be getting worked up about, not whether the Gardaí speak Irish to you or not. Give the next generation a decent chance to speak the language and you'll do an awful lot more than making a fuss over procedure amongst the Gardaí ever will.

We all know the value of immersion, but that is not the thread topic. This discussion is actually about the Language Commissioner and his role in ensuring that the law is upheld in respect to the Irish language.

I'm not sure how it benefits the Irish language to allow it to again become the language of second class citizens? Perhaps you can explain?

Coles

nesf wrote: »

Self reported levels of fluency are meant to about 7.8% but really I don't trust this number, far too many people are prone to overselling their abilities in these kinds of surveys and if you don't live in an Irish speaking community it's very hard for you to judge what your level of fluency as a speaker is anyway.

Eh? Do you live in an Irish speaking community? If you don't, I assume that doesn't impact on your wife's ability to determine if she is fluent in the language or not?

An Coilean

nesf wrote: »

He was speaking when primary speakers of Welsh were around 26% and some individual counties averaged 75% between them, with far lower rates in other counties. That ship has long sailed for us, we have to adopt a very different strategy to what he did resistance wise. The estimates of people who use Irish in this country as a community and home language are around the 3% mark. True native speakers are estimated to number between 40 and 80 thousand depending on how you count due to activity with the language. These are tiny, tiny numbers to be building off of. Self reported levels of fluency are meant to about 7.8% but really I don't trust this number, far too many people are prone to overselling their abilities in these kinds of surveys and if you don't live in an Irish speaking community it's very hard for you to judge what your level of fluency as a speaker is anyway.

That is true, which means that makeing a stand is all the more urgent.
Saunders Lewis predicted the death of Welsh by the end of the centuary if action was not taken. They had 40 years, as we know we only have 20 years left before Irish is dead. Talking about Irish is not enough anymore, unless people get organised and start standing up for their language, it will be gone.

We've had the above since nearly the foundation of the State. In case you hadn't noticed, we've had dropping speaker numbers since so the above isn't exactly a magic bullet.

We have had nothing more than official tokenism since the foundation of the state. The first Irish Language act did not come about until 2003, 36 years after the first Welsh language act.

marienbad

An Coilean wrote: »

I'll make it easy for you, Saunders Lewis speaking in 1962 said of Welsh:








The Welsh Language society was founded soon after that speach was broadcast and they have been fighting for Welsh, and being sent to Jail at times for their trouble for the last 50 years. Welsh is not in the situation that Irish is in today because of their stand.

Well that bus has definitely gone , and to compare this incident to Rosa Parks is just so laughable.

Language had control of the agenda for the history of the state and they blew it - get used to . It is not coming back.

Attached a few pics to remind you of what real deprivation of civil rights is about.

If you think our incident is in the same league you are so wrong.

nesf

Coles wrote: »

We all know the value of immersion, but that is not the thread topic. This discussion is actually about the Language Commissioner and his role in ensuring that the law is upheld in respect to the Irish language.

I'm not sure how it benefits the Irish language to allow it to again become the language of second class citizens? Perhaps you can explain?

Well rhetoric like second class citizens is all well and good but it's a minority language and has only become moreso over time so I'm not sure what you're talking about. The ability to speak to a Garda in Irish on the spot does not make or break a language, the numbers of speakers does.

Coles

marienbad wrote: »

...get used to . It is not coming back.

Why do you say that?

nesf

Coles wrote: »

Eh? Do you live in an Irish speaking community? If you don't, I assume that doesn't impact on your wife's ability to determine if she is fluent in the language or not?

We've a nice little nest of Irish speakers here actually, family and extended family. Regular trips to the Gaeltacht. Plus a job that requires Irish at a very high level.

Coles

nesf wrote: »

Well rhetoric like second class citizens is all well and good but it's a minority language and has only become moreso over time so I'm not sure what you're talking about. The ability to speak to a Garda in Irish on the spot does not make or break a language, the numbers of speakers does.

That's absurd. Nobody has said it will make or break the language. the Language Commissioner has a far wider remit than ensuring that Gardai use the language they were taught.

Coles

nesf wrote: »

We've a nice little nest of Irish speakers here actually, family and extended family. Regular trips to the Gaeltacht. Plus a job that requires Irish at a very high level.

You have avoided my question.

nesf

An Coilean wrote: »

That is true, which means that makeing a stand is all the more urgent.
Saunders Lewis predicted the death of Welsh by the end of the centuary if action was not taken. They had 40 years, as we know we only have 20 years left before Irish is dead. Talking about Irish is not enough anymore, unless people get organised and start standing up for their language, it will be gone.

20 years? No, Irish will probably limp along at near its current speaker level for longer than that. Is it in terminal decline? Maybe in the sense that dialectical Irish will be slowly replaced by a school Irish/dialectical hybrid. It's hard seeing a population of 80k speakers making much of a comeback and preserving the dialects as we have now, I mean even down in the Munster dialects some "sub-dialects" have disappeared in the past fifty years according to some academics I know.

An Coilean wrote: »

We have had nothing more than official tokenism since the foundation of the state. The first Irish Language act did not come about until 2003, 36 years after the first Welsh language act.

Benign neglect is a term I've heard applied to the States Irish Language Policy. Well meaning most of the time but very ineffective.

nesf

Coles wrote: »

You have avoided my question.

Nope. I answered it quite thoroughly I believe. I'll answer it again a different way for you, a native speaker in constant contact with other native speakers who visits a Gaeltacht several times a year to meet and socialise and who works in an area that requires a high level of Irish is not really someone who isn't in an Irish speaking community.

Someone who learned Irish to a high level in school but who now has only English speaking friends and family is in a much trickier position when determining their current fluency.

marienbad

Coles wrote: »

Why do you say that?

The graph is just irrelevant and has nothing to do with reality, If we can speak honestly for a minute and just forget the census figures for Irish speakers, which we both know is just not true.

Can you give me an estimate for the following.

(a) How many fluent Irish language speakers have we ?
(b) How many people speak Irish only ?

If you answer those questions honestly you will see why we will never become a bilingual country with Irish as 2nd language .

An Coilean

nesf wrote: »

20 years? No, Irish will probably limp along at near its current speaker level for longer than that. Is it in terminal decline? Maybe in the sense that dialectical Irish will be slowly replaced by a school Irish/dialectical hybrid. It's hard seeing a population of 80k speakers making much of a comeback and preserving the dialects as we have now, I mean even down in the Munster dialects some "sub-dialects" have disappeared in the past fifty years according to some academics I know.


Benign neglect is a term I've heard applied to the States Irish Language Policy. Well meaning most of the time but very ineffective.

Perhaps I should clarify, I consider the death of the language as a community language as being the last nail in its coffin.
Without serious action, Irish has only 20 years or so.

An Coilean

marienbad wrote: »

The graph is just irrelevant and has nothing to do with reality, If we can speak honestly for a minute and just forget the census figures for Irish speakers, which we both know is just not true.

Can you give me an estimate for the following.

(a) How many fluent Irish language speakers have we ?
(b) How many people speak Irish only ?

If you answer those questions honestly you will see why we will never become a bilingual country with Irish as 2nd language .

The pic posted by coles is not based on census figures, it is the number of students recieving their education through Irish at any given time over the last 40 years or so. Those figures by their nature are compleatly accurate.

As for your questions,
a) Somewhere between 100,000 and 150,000 with a good level of fluency with a further 100,000 with lower conversational ability.
b) Hard to tell, I would say somewhere between 200 and 500 at any given time, though these are mostly Young children who later go on to learn English.

marienbad

An Coilean wrote: »

The pic posted by coles is not based on census figures, it is the number of students educated through Irish over the last 40 years or so.

The pic is irrelevant , I just used it as a kicking off point, None of these things are very relevant - the number of students the number of schools etc.

The only relevant stat is the number of Irish speakers that need/use Irish to live their daily lives.And that does not include jobs etc created by the language industry.

What is that number ? 40k ? 80k ? and how many of them don't speak English ?

When is the last time a film was dubbed into Irish ? Is Lord Of the Rings available in Irish ? Is 50 Shades of Grey ? How many jobs require Irish ? And I mean require Irish as some jobs require french or maths as an essential part of the job and not a necessity through regulation ?

nesf

An Coilean wrote: »

Perhaps I should clarify, I consider the death of the language as a community language as being the last nail in its coffin.
Without serious action, Irish has only 20 years or so.

Ah yeah, that is possible. Things like the Irish Language Commissioner are immaterial to this though to be honest. Official documents in Irish are good for already Irish speakers, it's not good money spent for the promotion of the language amongst the next generation. Though I imagine the Commissioner isn't heavily staffed and costing a lot (in Government money not money as we'd think about it) so it's not a huge deal.

I'm just saddened by a lack of a focused policy of expanding Irish level pre-school coverage and uptake. Better childcare grants if the preschool operates through Irish or whatever. Done well, kids come out of a Naoinra with good Irish for their age and honestly if the child doesn't have a decent grasp of the spoken language coming out of Primary level we're pretty screwed. Teenagers have a far more difficult time picking up languages than pre-schoolers and primary school age kids.

An Coilean

nesf wrote: »

Ah yeah, that is possible. Things like the Irish Language Commissioner are immaterial to this though to be honest. Official documents in Irish are good for already Irish speakers, it's not good money spent for the promotion of the language amongst the next generation. Though I imagine the Commissioner isn't heavily staffed and costing a lot (in Government money not money as we'd think about it) so it's not a huge deal.

The language can never be developed if existing speakers are ignored. You work from the centre out, a strong core is the basis of any revival.
Its like this, its worth fighting for a proper procedure to be put in place by the Gardaí for dealing with Irish speakers now so that the next generation will be able to access that service through Irish as part of their normal lives without having to fight for it.

I'm just saddened by a lack of a focused policy of expanding Irish level pre-school coverage and uptake.

There have been dozens of Irish Language Pre-scools opening per year for the last few years.
23 opened this year.

nesf

An Coilean wrote: »

The language can never be developed if existing speakers are ignored. You work from the centre out, a strong core is the basis of any revival.
Its like this, its worth fighting for a proper procedure to be put in place by the Gardaí for dealing with Irish speakers now so that the next generation will be able to access that service through Irish as part of their normal lives without having to fight for it.

Yes, but I'd argue that interacting with Gardaí in Irish is of far lower priority than being able to have court cases in Irish which from I hear works fairly smoothly.

An Coilean wrote: »

There have been dozens of Irish Language Pre-scools opening per year for the last few years.
23 opened this year.

I think we need incentives to encourage this further and to encourage more parents to send them there. Of course ideally we have to have them as feeder "schools" to Gaelscoileanna which requires a decent amount of planning and organisation that I worry isn't there right now. Plopping a Naoinra in the middle of an English speaking school only district isn't going to have as much of an impact.


Edit: I'm going to bow out for a good long while, I need some sleep. Thanks for the interesting debate.

An Coilean

nesf wrote: »

Yes, but I'd argue that interacting with Gardaí in Irish is of far lower priority than being able to have court cases in Irish which from I hear works fairly smoothly.

It does because some nutjob decided to go all the way to the Supreme Court back in 2001 to vindicate his right to be tried through Irish and have materials relevant to his case provided in Irish. The verdict in that case provided the incentive for the Official Languages Act 2003 and is the basis for why you now have the unrestricted right to be tried through Irish.

Also, being able to deal with the Gardaí through Irish is fairly important if the case goes to court and you want to be tried through Irish.

Plopping a Naoinra in the middle of an English speaking school only district isn't going to have as much of an impact.

Actually it can often form the basis for a new Gaelscoil being established.

nesf

An Coilean wrote: »

It does because some nutjob decided to go all the way to the Supreme Court back in 2001 to vindicate his right to be tried through Irish and have materials relevant to his case provided in Irish. The verdict in that case provided the incentive for the Official Languages Act 2003 and is the basis for why you now have the unrestricted right to be tried through Irish.

Last post by me for while!

He wasn't a nutjob, he took a case he believed in to the highest court. He didn't act disrespectfully and walk into that Supreme Court and demand everyone there spoke in Irish to him and only Irish to him. He instead fought for the right to be able to do that.

Demanding a Garda, who you know probably doesn't speak Irish, to communicate solely in Irish is on the other hand unreasonable.

An Coilean wrote: »

Also, being able to deal with the Gardaí through Irish is fairly important if the case goes to court and you want to be tried through Irish.

Not really, they can just translate the notes the Garda took. I mean statements from other witnesses are going to be in English anyway usually, so they'll be translating things for the court regardless.

An Coilean wrote: »

Actually it can often form the basis for a new Gaelscoil being established.

Such things need to be planned. Naoinra goes in 2015, the Gaelscoil opens in 2017 and similar.

An Coilean

nesf wrote: »

He wasn't a nutjob, he took a case he believed in to the highest court. He didn't act disrespectfully and walk into that Supreme Court and demand everyone there spoke in Irish to him and only Irish to him. He instead fought for the right to be able to do that.

Demanding a Garda, who you know probably doesn't speak Irish, to communicate solely in Irish is on the other hand unreasonable.

It all depends on how you portray it.
The guy in the other case was not a nutjob. He insisted on his right to use Irish when dealing with the Gardaí, something which he believed in. He did so politly and was in no way disrespectful to the Garda at the scene. There is no evidence that he demanded that the Garda at the scene speak Irish despite their not being able to. That the Garda was unable to provide this service and that the Gardaí had no procedure in place for dealing with Irish citizens through Irish when requested is not the person in question's fault.
He was not being unresaonable in requesting such a service, nor was he unreasonable in making a principled stand when that service was denied to him.

Mr Whirly

An Coilean wrote: »

It all depends on how you portray it.
The guy in the other case was not a nutjob. He insisted on his right to use Irish when dealing with the Gardaí, something which he believed in. He did so politly and was in no way disrespectful to the Garda at the scene. There is no evidence that he demanded that the Garda at the scene speak Irish despite their not being able to. That the Garda was unable to provide this service and that the Gardaí had no procedure in place for dealing with Irish citizens through Irish when requested is not the person in question's fault.
He was not being unresaonable in requesting such a service, nor was he unreasonable in making a principled stand when that service was denied to him.

You have to admit that he was being a pain in the hole though.

At least when our Brendan did it in the 50's he had a sense of humour about it.

http://comeheretome.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/screen-shot-2012-05-04-at-11-10-39.png

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

An Coilean wrote: »

It all depends on how you portray it.
The guy in the other case was not a nutjob. He insisted on his right to use Irish when dealing with the Gardaí, something which he believed in. He did so politly and was in no way disrespectful to the Garda at the scene. There is no evidence that he demanded that the Garda at the scene speak Irish despite their not being able to. That the Garda was unable to provide this service and that the Gardaí had no procedure in place for dealing with Irish citizens through Irish when requested is not the person in question's fault.
He was not being unresaonable in requesting such a service, nor was he unreasonable in making a principled stand when that service was denied to him.

Again, how do you know this, unless you were there? Not saying you're wrong, but - well, were you?

If he didn't make the demand (again, how sure are we of this?) then why didn't he respond in English when he realsied the guards didn't speak Irish? And if he STILL refused to speak English, he not only DID make the demand, he obstructe the guard in the course of his or her duty. THAT is an arrestable offence, as I've pointed out to you numerous times. HE has an onus to assist the Gardai. By law.

Making a principled stand to the gardai and refusing to help in English is, in what way, not disrespectful? Beign respectful would have been sorting the issus out as quick as possible and then making the stand later. Time and a place. And before you go into your next post, no he was not arrested for speakign Irish, no he was not arrested for refusing to speak English (as a consequence of, yes, possibly, but for doing it) and no I am not saying he should not have made a stance.

Coles

marienbad wrote: »

The graph is just irrelevant and has nothing to do with reality, If we can speak honestly for a minute and just forget the census figures for Irish speakers, which we both know is just not true.

Can you give me an estimate for the following.

(a) How many fluent Irish language speakers have we ?
(b) How many people speak Irish only ?

If you answer those questions honestly you will see why we will never become a bilingual country with Irish as 2nd language .

Wtf. :mad:

If YOU refuse to accept the official figures then YOU need to provide the alternative figures and the relevant method and data to support them.

opti0nal

An Coilean wrote: »

The language can never be developed if existing speakers are ignored.

Like the Irish lobby ignore the rights of English speaking children?

Free the hostage children, them we can talk.

Coles

nesf wrote: »

...a Garda, who you know probably doesn't speak Irish...

Eh? Why wouldn't a Garda be able to speak Irish. The vast majority of Gardaí have been through 14 years of Irish classes, have used it as one of their two qualifying languages to join the force, and have then under gone 2 more years of Irish language classes.

Iwasfrozen

Coles wrote: »

Eh? Why wouldn't a Garda be able to speak Irish. The vast majority of Gardaí have been through 14 years of Irish classes, have used it as one of their two qualifying languages to join the force, and have then under gone 2 more years of Irish language classes.

They must have a bad attitude Coles. That or they're British chavs.

Coles

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

They must have a bad attitude Coles. That or they're British chavs.

'They'? Is there any evidence that this wasn't just an isolated problem within the force? All the Gardaí I know are very proud Irish men who value the language.

An Coilean

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Again, how do you know this, unless you were there? Not saying you're wrong, but - well, were you?

I was not there, as such I am basing my opinion of his behaviour on the only available information that says ''The witnesses and the Gardaí all agreed that the driver was polite to the extent of being passive''

If you want to argue that he was impolite or disrespectful then I would have to ask on what that claim is based?

If he didn't make the demand (again, how sure are we of this?) then why didn't he respond in English when he realsied the guards didn't speak Irish? And if he STILL refused to speak English, he not only DID make the demand, he obstructe the guard in the course of his or her duty. THAT is an arrestable offence, as I've pointed out to you numerous times. HE has an onus to assist the Gardai. By law.

Refusing to speak in English is not an arrestable offence, nor can it be made an arestable offence by claiming that it is obstructing a Garda in the course of their duty. The obstruction was caused by the failure of the Gardaí to have an appropriate precedure in place to accomodate the use of Irish by members of the public as they are obliged by law to do.

Making a principled stand to the gardai and refusing to help in English is, in what way, not disrespectful? Beign respectful would have been sorting the issus out as quick as possible and then making the stand later. Time and a place. And before you go into your next post, no he was not arrested for speakign Irish, no he was not arrested for refusing to speak English (as a consequence of, yes, possibly, but for doing it) and no I am not saying he should not have made a stance.

In what way is standing up for your rights disrespectful? Again the only information we have on the drivers behaviour was that he was polite to the extent of being passive. Personally I consider trying to deny someone their rights as far more disrespectful than making a principled and polite stand in the face of that imposition.

An Coilean

opti0nal wrote: »

Like the Irish lobby ignore the rights of English speaking children?

Free the hostage children, them we can talk.

I'm not really interested in talking to you, optional, I'v found its like banging your head against a wall for no reason.

opti0nal

Coles wrote: »

Eh? Why wouldn't a Garda be able to speak Irish. The vast majority of Gardaí have been through 14 years of Irish classes,

Most of the population have been forced through those same Irish lessons and don't speak or understand spoken Irish. No doubt, if the Garda had struggled to use 'cupla focal', it would still not have been good enough for a determined Irish speaker.

Are we to expect that Irish speakers will deliberately engage in law-breaking behaviour so that they can test the Irish of the Garda?

An Coilean suggests that we might need more Irish speaking Garda to cope with the output of Irish language schools.

awec

Again, if the person was in any way a decent individual then he'd have spoken in English to a Garda who wasn't comfortable speaking in Irish.

The guy tried to be a smart arse and got arrested for his troubles. No complaints here.

Mr Whirly

In fairness the poll results show that the overriding majority are in agreement on this. If a small minority want to pursue this they should have to fund it out of their own pockets. I bet their commitment would diminish greatly.

Talk is cheap unless it's As Gaeilge. Let them fund it themselves.

Iwasfrozen

Coles wrote: »

'They'? Is there any evidence that this wasn't just an isolated problem within the force? All the Gardaí I know are very proud Irish men who value the language.

One of those characteristics can exist without the other. Look at me, I'm Irish and I couldn't give a damn about the Irish language. There are many like me and you may not like it but you don't have a say in the matter.

How many natives speakers of you language are there Coles and what is the percentage in the population as a whole? Here's an article you may enjoy.

In fact this figure may in itself be too optimistic. If one considers the numbers of persons in the Gaeltacht who use Irish on a daily basis outside of education – 17,687 – and compares it to the population of the entire state – 3,990,863 – then one reaches a percentage figure of 0.44%. Given that the number of active native speakers can scarcely be higher than that of those in the Gaeltacht who use Irish on a daily basis outside education, the percentage of native speakers in present-day Ireland would be between 0.4% and 0.5%, i.e. not more than 20,000 at the most. Given this alarmingly low figure, it is understandable that the statistics office and the government in general does not wish to be more accurate in this matter.

Source

Taking their figure of 0.44% and applying it to the number of guards in the country, circa 13.5k source, we get (13.5k/100)*0.44 = 59.4 garda who can speak irish assuming the fluency rates are the same as the general populace.

Now take a random county, say Offaly (why not) the population of Offaly is 100(76,687/4,588,252)=1.67% the population of the country.

Taking 1.67% of 59.4 we get (59.4/100)*1.67 = 0.99 guard in Offally who speaks Irish, approximately one. solitary. guard. and you expect him to stop every car in the county? I hope he's getting a pay increase.

An Coilean

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

One of those characteristics can exist without the other. Look at me, I'm Irish and I couldn't give a damn about the Irish language. There are many like me and you may not like it but you don't have a say in the matter.

How many natives speakers of you language are there Coles and what is the percentage in the population as a whole? Here's an article you may enjoy.


Source

Taking their figure of 0.44% and applying it to the number of guards in the country, circa 13.5k source, we get (13.5k/100)*0.44 = 59.4 garda who can speak irish assuming the fluency rates are the same as the general populace.

Now take a random county, say Offaly (why not) the population of Offaly is 100(76,687/4,588,252)=1.67% the population of the country.

Taking 1.67% of 59.4 we get (59.4/100)*1.67 = 0.99 guard in Offally who speaks Irish, approximately one. solitary. guard. and you expect him to stop every car in the county? I hope he's getting a pay increase.

I hope you dident spend too much time on that post because it is almost entirly bullshít.

I mean for one thing, you are confusing Native speaker with functional fluency, and both of those things with someone who uses Irish every day in the Gaeltacht.
Your source is also quite suspect, I had a quick look at it and to be honnest it is quite poorly put together, out of date and biased. Even at a glance i found information that was simply wrong.

You are also saying that only fluent Irish speaking Gardaí would be allowed interact with the public. That as has been pointed out before is bull, pure and simple.

What you have is a badly put together strawman.

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

I hope you dident spend too much time on that post because it is almost entirly bullshít.

Nah was a five minute job.

An Coilean wrote: »

I mean for one thing, you are confusing Native speaker with functional fluency, and both of those things with someone who uses Irish every day in the Gaeltacht.

The reality is that the majority of Irish speakers do not live in the Gaeltacht.

What's your figure for the % of fluent Irish speakers, I'll be happy to adjust my maths (and please don't say 1.7 million or I may have convulsions)

An Coilean wrote: »

You are also saying that only fluent Irish speaking Gardaí would be allowed interact with the public. That as has been pointed out before is bull, pure and simple.

What if he wants to interact with the public? You really like telling other people what to do.

An Coilean

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Nah was a five minute job.

What's your figure for the % of fluent Irish speakers, I'll be happy to adjust my maths (and please don't say 1.7 million or I may have convulsions)

The number of functionally fluent Irish speakers is around 150,000 which workes out at about 3.3%

The problem however is that your premis is flawed.

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

The number of functionally fluent Irish speakers is around 150,000 which workes out at about 3.3%

The problem however is that your premis is flawed.

Think you're being a bit optimistic there, I wouldn't put it above 100k.

opti0nal

An Coilean wrote: »

I'm not really interested in talking to you, optional,

Indeed, just like the Irish language movement: not interested in talking to anyone unless it's in Irish.

But, do help me with a bit of English/Irish translation: Is 'Coles' the English translation of 'Coilean'?