Ming and the quashed penalty points

SB2013

bmaxi wrote: »

I do have a problem with it. Only the courts should have the power to mitigate an offence and then only when all the facts have come to light. It doesn't matter whether or not the' do gooders" as you term them, would do the same, nobody should be above the law.
If the Gardai were mistaken in issuing the charge because of some obscure law then that's a different matter, as technically, no offence was committed, but Gardai, at whatever level, should not have the power to just strike out an offence.

They don't. They have discretion on wether to prosecute for minor offences or give a warning. Only a judge can strike out a prosecution. A fixed charge penalty is not a prosecution. If it is not paid it can progress to a prosecution. But the issuing of a fixed charge penalty does not change the fact a Garda can choose not to follow through with a prosecution. Of course the execution of this power of discretion is one that should be done in a fair and equitable manner with all circumstances considered and not just as a favour.

Think of it like this. You are stopped for speeding. You explain that you were in a medical emergency. The Garda can choose issue you a fine or give you a chance. This is his power of discretion. But in this case there is no record of it being used other than in the Gardas notebook. Now lets say you go through a speed trap and get a fine. You write to the Superintendent to explain that it was a medical emergency and provide proof of this. The Superintendent can accept or reject this. If he accepts it he must send a report to the fixed charge penalty office to have the fine cancelled. In this case the same power of discretion is being used but there is a written record of it and the decision is made at a higher level. But for some reason the latter method is considered to be evidence of corruption.

recedite

There is no evidence that Ming was in the middle of a medical emergency.
The issue is that it looks like there is a culture among politicians and perhaps certain other people "in the know" whereby they get their prosecutions cancelled out before the prosecution gets officially registered by the Superintendent, and its simply because of who they are, not because of any mitigating circumstances.
Presumably the young Garda who first issued the ticket learns from his "mistake" and is more careful in future who he gives a ticket to, if he wants to do well in the force.

On the other hand, if this is a genuine misunderstanding of the law by a particular Superintendent, then fair enough. Lets have a circular sent around to all the Garda stations explaining the situation, so that it doesn't continue to happen on an ongoing basis.

Jamie Starr

Ming's a fantastic representative of the people. Because if all anyone had to do to get their points quashed was write a letter, they'd do it in a second.

bmaxi

SB2013 wrote: »

They don't. They have discretion on wether to prosecute for minor offences or give a warning. Only a judge can strike out a prosecution. A fixed charge penalty is not a prosecution. If it is not paid it can progress to a prosecution. But the issuing of a fixed charge penalty does not change the fact a Garda can choose not to follow through with a prosecution. Of course the execution of this power of discretion is one that should be done in a fair and equitable manner with all circumstances considered and not just as a favour.

Think of it like this. You are stopped for speeding. You explain that you were in a medical emergency. The Garda can choose issue you a fine or give you a chance. This is his power of discretion. But in this case there is no record of it being used other than in the Gardas notebook. Now lets say you go through a speed trap and get a fine. You write to the Superintendent to explain that it was a medical emergency and provide proof of this. The Superintendent can accept or reject this. If he accepts it he must send a report to the fixed charge penalty office to have the fine cancelled. In this case the same power of discretion is being used but there is a written record of it and the decision is made at a higher level. But for some reason the latter method is considered to be evidence of corruption.

OK, point taken, but what steps are taken to verify what is written to the Superintendent? I can see this as being an area open to abuse. In a hypothetical situation, what's to stop every recipient of a fixed penalty for speeding writing to the local Superintendent citing medical emergency? It would be very difficult and time consuming to verify each and every case, so the Superintendent would have to exercise his judgment. It's in the exercising of this judgment and in whose favour it is exercised, that corruption is likely to take place. People in positions of influence are more likely to be favoured, it is nonsense to think otherwise.

hallelujajordan

bmaxi wrote: »

I do have a problem with it. Only the courts should have the power to mitigate an offence and then only when all the facts have come to light. It doesn't matter whether or not the' do gooders" as you term them, would do the same, nobody should be above the law.
If the Gardai were mistaken in issuing the charge because of some obscure law then that's a different matter, as technically, no offence was committed, but Gardai, at whatever level, should not have the power to just strike out an offence.

Fair enough .. hard to argue with any of that. . but the bigger issue for me here is around what this means for Dail Eireann . . In the last election people like Ming Flanagan put themselves forward as an 'alternative' to the "corrupt political system" ... They painted themselves as being something new and different and in many cases the electorate bought into it... As time goes on we are seeing that not only is their behaviour no different but their reaction when caught out is no different . . in fact they are even worse and their efforts at painting themselves as some sort of victim is pathetic (we saw the same with Mick Wallace) . .

If Ming Flanagan had the integrity that he claims to he would resign his seat and then re-contest it in a by election .. that way he could apologise to his constituents, refresh his mandate and put this behind him . . instead he will do what all Irish politicians do and keep his head down in the hope that we will forget about this little hiccup . . .

G Power

hallelujajordan wrote: »

little hiccup . . .

in the grand scheme of things here in Ireland right now the quote above would describe Mings penalty points "issue" quite well I reckon

http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/ireland

SB2013

G Power wrote: »

in the grand scheme of things here in Ireland right now the quote above would describe Mings penalty points "issue" quite well I reckon

http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/ireland

But when Ming was talking about other people doing it it was an indication of indemic corruption

jmayo

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Don't have a huge issue with Ming getting his points quashed TBH . .

Why am I not surprised someone in ff wouldn't have a problem with such behaviour.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I think many of the moral high-grounders would be willing to do the same if they knew a friendly sergeant and thought they would get away with it . .

Perish the thought some people might take the moral high ground.
Then again the people you complain would do the same thing aren't elected public representatives.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Much bigger issue with the way he has behaved since this has come to light . . Throwing the Garda / Council official under the bus to save his own neck - now that just stinks. . sometimes Ming, you need to just hold your hands up and accept that you are wrong...

I do recall a ff councillor in Galway (stroke fahy) doing much worse which was implicating a public offical in his theft of public property.
ming is just another Irish politican who thinks he can get away with unethical behaviour.
And he is just another typcial Irish politican, who when caught, starts complaining and blaming others around him.

BTW I always find it interesting when fianna failers give us their thoughts on political ethics. :rolleyes:

nice_guy80

I'll just be interested to see the way this whole thing pans out

I think the media have been waiting for him to slip up.
the Independent group have been ready to perform a lynching

and the main parties in the Dáil have given him a hard time everytime he brought up an issue they didn't like such as expenses, pay, closing of A&Es, small school cutbacks, wearing a suit in the Dail

jimmycrackcorm

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I'll just be interested to see the way this whole thing pans out

I think the media have been g for him to slip up.
the Independent group have been ready to perform a lynching

and the main parties in the Dáil have given him a hard time everytime he brought up an issue they didn't like such as expenses, pay, closing of A&Es, small school cutbacks, wearing a suit in the Dail

Nobody has been waiting for him to slip up. He's suffering the result of his own foolishness and naivety. To continually state that the the corruption is that a garda insisted he quite to letter to get his points canceled whilst he is actually the beneficiary as a result is simply laughable.

G Power

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Nobody has been waiting for him to slip up.

would ya get up outta that!! the man got a slating everytime he's brought up about something good bad or indifferent and the proof against your argument is in this very thread, people ready to lynch him as if he's the root of all evil!!

Park Royal

G Power wrote: »

would ya get up outta that!! the man got a slating everytime he's brought up about something good bad or indifferent and the proof against your argument is in this very thread, people ready to lynch him as if he's the root of all evil!!

Ming is giving half his Dail pay to "charity" for me this earns him "browney

points.."

I'm sure if one looked at Fahey he may have good points too.....??:eek:

Even Bertie displayed good points , despite residing over the worst

catastrophe to befall his wee country in many years.....resulting in

some/many citizens ending their lives......

But I do have to say in the case of Ming , I always thought anybody into

pot and in a high profile job, was just/ probably.... a car crash waiting to

happen.....I hear he is not into pot now !. So thats an improvement imho.

G Power

Park Royal wrote: »

Ming is giving half his Dail pay to "charity" for me this earns him "browney

points.."

I'm sure if one looked at Fahey he may have good points too.....??:eek:

Even Bertie displayed good points , despite residing over the worst

catastrophe to befall his wee country in many years.....resulting in

some/many citizens ending their lives......

But I do have to say in the case of Ming , I always thought anybody into

pot and in a high profile job, was just/ probably.... a car crash waiting to

happen.....I hear he is not into pot now !. So thats an improvement imho.

the irish lobsters are alive and well :pac::pac::pac::pac:

Hitchens

Journalist and broadcaster Vincent Browne was fined €300 in his absence today when he forgot to turn up to court to face prosecution for driving a car while holding a mobile phone.


Jaysus, what will we hear next?

recedite

I'm glad Vincent Browne is paying his fine, unlike the 100,000 cases over the past five years (according to Mick Wallace) who had theirs cancelled with a nod and a wink to the superintendent.

Meanwhile, the Gardai who brought this issue to the attention of Joe Public are being persecuted within the force.

But the Gardai who cancel fines and penalty points without justifiable reason carry on doing so, without any reprimands.

SB2013

recedite wrote: »

I'm glad Vincent Browne is paying his fine, unlike the 100,000 cases over the past five years (according to Mick Wallace) who had theirs cancelled with a nod and a wink to the superintendent.

Meanwhile, the Gardai who brought this issue to the attention of Joe Public are being persecuted within the force.

But the Gardai who cancel fines and penalty points without justifiable reason carry on doing so, without any reprimands.

The Gardaí who linked the information released personal information of thousands of people in the the public domain. It was a massive intrusion of privacy, a breach of data protection rules, a breach of discipline and a misuse of the Garda pulse system. And while you may think it was for the greater good, there are very many people who have had fixed charge penalties cancelled for genuine reasons and have had their information released without reason.

And if you could link a source to your final statement that'd be great.

recedite

Can you link to any case of a Garda being punished for cancelling penalty points without just cause?

SB2013

recedite wrote: »

Can you link to any case of a Garda being punished for cancelling penalty points without just cause?

No. Garda disciplinary proceedings aren't published. So do i take your deflection to mean you cannot in fact support your statement?

recedite

OK I retract it. But if all these cases are in the public domain, but not one single disciplinary case is, then the public are going to assume that the Gardai are happy enough to continue as they were.
At the very least, you would expect the Garda press office to release a statement to say that x number of cases were reviewed, and y number were found to be fully justified, and in the remainder of cases the (unnamed) Gardai involved were reprimanded.

SB2013

recedite wrote: »

OK I retract it. But if all these cases are in the public domain, but not one single disciplinary case is, then the public are going to assume that the Gardai are happy enough to continue as they were.
At the very least, you would expect the Garda press office to release a statement to say that x number of cases were reviewed, and y number were found to be fully justified, and in the remainder of cases the (unnamed) Gardai involved were reprimanded.

Last time information like that was released it was dismissed as a cover up. People will believe what they want no matter what information is released.