visonic powermax complete or powermaster 10/30

KoolKid

Yes, the big difference in the price of the sensors is a major factor.
To clarify on the self monitoring.
The Powermaster 10 is the one that just plays a siren. The same as the Express.
The Powermaster 30 is the same as the Powermax with voice announced zone description.

Thunderbird2

haha ..... Plenty of experience with them ..
Just because you install them and follow the same routine when installing them doesn't mean you've had a proper look at them and understand in depth how exactly they work ...
No need to be sour about it
Funny though how I seem to be teaching you The installer a few things RE jamming one way sensors & the UPC phone line fault detection ...... At least I know the limits of the gear I recommend ....

Go for 2 a way system ...ie the quantum .
Pulse detection is a very important feature
Needed for if the glass is cut which creates smaller vibrations (pulses) the visonic system won't detect these small vibrations therefore relying on a pir as a back up .

KoolKid

TB you suffer from tunnel vision and you are unwilling to change and learn. As usual you ignore the questions and go on about how great you are and how much you think you know. How many Visonic Powermaster sensors have you installed and used?
Bringing up arguments from other threads really is a little childish, that probably comes from your lack of experience in general. But seeing as you feel it's important to mention I will again acknowledge I agreed with your point re a UPC modem not registering a line fault if the unit is powered on . That was once we got away from bringing IP into it.
You claim to know what you recommend?
How many quantum's have you installed?
I have 20 years + experience in this industry.
A little more than one poking around a panel at home or on a bench...
Oh, and 1more question. What exactly do you think I'm sour about? That's a few times you mentioned it..

bazbrady

just to point out visonic was established in 1973 and was formed as a private israel security company with over 90 registered patents and 40 additional patents being examined.they have huge history in the security field with alot of other companies using their technology after patents run out.im not going to get drawn into arguements comparing to hkc but im from an instrument engineering background working in pharma with alot of friends working abroad in technical areas where visonic is highly regarded and respected,hkc is a good company but there are also many other quality alarm systems in the irish market and from what i have seen first hand are alot of electrician friends of mine who got into security buy hkc as its sold in most electrical wholesalers and is irish and they stick with what they know.again there are many good makes of alarms from what i can see with pros and cons..!!!!!rant over

KoolKid

I would agree 100 per cent. Generally I find HKC users either very stuck in their ways or else they will admit that they know it's not the best but they want the easy solution, like the electricians.
Most who are critical of Visonic aren't experienced enough or know the industry well enough to understand Visonics profile.

altor

The Visonic sensors are a cheaper alternative. No pulse on a detector it a let down as it is something that is needed. Again it is a cheaper option and I guess you get what you pay for. When given the alternatives a customer will always spend the extra money on a better system if they have it.
That is if they have being given this option.

Now Koolkid, to say that installers only install what they know is a bit of a farce.
I have installed many different wire free systems be that from the Eircom to Visonic range. Like most installers I install what I find the most reliable, The HKC may cost more but you get what you pay for.

John Kelly of

Agree totally, I installed Visonic for a while so I could give more competitive quotes or give the same quotes and make more money, but now I advise customers to go for Quantum because it is better system when it comes to shock sensors among other things.

altor

It is a money saver and a lot of company's are using the cheaper systems to get jobs plus to make more money.

Right or wrong that is that company's opinion.

I would advise the Quantum over the Complete system too.

Thunderbird2

KoolKid wrote: »

TB you suffer from tunnel vision and you are unwilling to change and learn. As usual you ignore the questions and go on about how great you are and how much you think you know. How many Visonic Powermaster sensors have you installed and used?
Bringing up arguments from other threads really is a little childish, that probably comes from your lack of experience in general. But seeing as you feel it's important to mention I will again acknowledge I agreed with your point re a UPC modem not registering a line fault if the unit is powered on . That was once we got away from bringing IP into it.
You claim to know what you recommend?
How many quantum's have you installed?
I have 20 years + experience in this industry.
A little more than one poking around a panel at home or on a bench...
Oh, and 1more question. What exactly do you think I'm sour about? That's a few times you mentioned it..

20 + years in the industry that's impressive.

Surely you are not installing these systems without shock sensors ?( they aren't available I thought? )
I know what I recommend . I keep in touch with HKC and the work they do .( incredible company )
Strange how you have 20+ years in the industry but yet the chap who pokes around at panels on a bench discovered the problem with the UPC line and diallers and how easily one way systems can be jammed with a common household appliance. Amazing the secrets that poking reveals . Irrelevant to how many I've operated I still know in dept how they work and there limits So Of course I'm willing to learn .
So again what do you think of visonics systems and also the lack of Pulse detection ?

Thunderbird2

In fairness that's true ... They are cheap and cheerful .....

KoolKid

Scallykelly. By any chance are you a rep for someone else.
Get a better attitude or don't post here.

scallykav

KoolKid wrote: »

Scallykelly. By any chance are you a rep for someone else.
Get a better attitude or don't post here.

no not all...work as an elec/alarm installer...just annoyed at sum peoples blinkered view on certain things...

KoolKid

scallykav wrote: »

no not all...work as an elec/alarm installer...just annoyed at sum peoples blinkered view on certain things...

I know how you feel. HKC users are the often worst offenders for that.
A company charging less does not automatically mean you can accuse them of using cheap equipment.
Siemens PiRs & contacts are cheaper than HKC. Does that mean they are using cheap & inferior components. have you ever considered that maybe HKC are just dearer? Like the way the cost of an S22 quadrupled overnight.:rolleyes:

Thunderbird2

KoolKid wrote: »

I know how you feel. HKC users are the often worst offenders for that.
A company charging less does not automatically mean you can accuse them of using cheap equipment.
Siemens PiRs & contacts are cheaper than HKC. Does that mean they are using cheap & inferior components. have you ever considered that maybe HKC are just dearer? Like the way the cost of an S22 quadrupled overnight.:rolleyes:

The chip in the S22 is what made the price difference.
It is an obsolete chip that cant be got.

I am very very interested to hear your views about the pulse on the Visonic detectors and again what you think of the system overall?

KoolKid

Thunderbird2 wrote: »

The chip in the S22 is what made the price difference.
It is an obsolete chip that cant be got.

A small chip like that goes up by €25 + Twice the price of the entire unit.
If you going to believe that you should do some more research.
The Chinese are making DVRs for that price...

Thunderbird2 wrote: »

I am very very interested to hear your views about the pulse on the Visonic detectors and again what you think of the system overall?

I think the system overall is good.They now have 2 way which puts the old argument to bed here anyway. The programming features are good & the magnetic tamper feature is good. In relation to pulse here is Visonics line on it.
The detector’s advanced digital processing uses a piezo shock sensor to precisely detect and analyze gross attacks or a series of low-level shocks while ignoring background vibrations,
While not having a separate pulse setting, as such,from testing I am happy with the protection it provides. I would ask others to test them before jumping on the band wagon.
Anyone who does some research on Vison will see there are a very reputable & respected company within the wireless security industry.

Thunderbird2

€13 - €25

I was really referring to there other systems since the shocks aren't available for the power master so they don't have two way wireless shocks..... Is it not a low end system ? Last resort?

KoolKid

Thunderbird2 wrote: »

€13 - €25

I was really referring to there other systems since the shocks aren't available for the power master so they don't have two way wireless shocks..... Is it not a low end system ? Last resort?

I find the Powermax a good reliable system. I've had no major issues with it.
Is Visonic a low end last resort system . I have 100s of these installed and I have to say no. How many have you installed that you are basing your opinion on?
Low end ,last resort systems would be the likes of This or This
Again , I would ask that you do your research on the Visonic /Tyco brand.

Thunderbird2

Unfortunately one of those systems you mentioned is actually as reliable as the power max ... The response systems are 868mhz... Built in diallers .... Just not made to en50131 but they are made to a British standard. Option to control lights ect . But cannot use shock sensors .
Please remember that just because something is made to meet a certain standard doesn't mean it's top of the range.
There are actually hundreds of these used in the UK and companies do install them (both systems) .



Third one is quite interesting too

Thunderbird2

Sorry this one
Glad you agree

KoolKid

I base my opinions on my experience not whether they conform to standards. How many installations are your opinions based on?
Again I ask you to research the brands you are talking about. Comparing Yale or Response to Visonic really shows how little you know about this industry.
Maybe that's why you keep avoiding the questions about how may Visonic systems you have installed and worked on to validate your opinions.

scallykav

KoolKid wrote: »

I know how you feel. HKC users are the often worst offenders for that.
A company charging less does not automatically mean you can accuse them of using cheap equipment.
Siemens PiRs & contacts are cheaper than HKC. Does that mean they are using cheap & inferior components. have you ever considered that maybe HKC are just dearer? Like the way the cost of an S22 quadrupled overnight.:rolleyes:

but i find hkc components superior visonic...sorry i thought that this thread was a discussion regarding quality alarms..

KoolKid

It is.
So what are you basing HKCs superior quality on?
Obviously not the issue's with batteries going after less than a year.
I take it that it's not on price either side Siemens are cheaper than HKC also. Come to think of it. Most are cheaper than HKC. Does that mean they are all inferior?

bazbrady

also a major amount of alarms in other conutries dont use shock sensors ,seems to be a big thing in ireland,again lots of friends of mine working in security industry abroad dont use shocks for lots of reasons,so are all these countries security companies wrong in how they approach security on buildings and all yous right !!!!,i have several friends who have visonic alarms installed and two of them had their windows glass cut to gain entry which i would consider a low pulse and the shocks went off...imagine that a low end alarm detecting small vibrations on a window!!!!pros and cons to every alarm model, wish some of the installers on this forum would work abroad and see that alot of security installations dont use shocks for different reason ..hung up on hkc ...its getting tiring listening to people on this forum constantly go on about how poor visonic alarms are.its simple not correct or accurate information.the shock contacts are out for the powermaster models just havent arrived here yet have a look at visonics website...they clearly show them as a new addition to accesories...

bazbrady

and also i know alot about siemens automation from the industry im in and the wealth of knowledge they have,they acquired milltronics a few years back and are second to none but im sure all you hkc guys knew that!!!fact is siemens have a huge reputation in the technical field and like visonic were involved in alot of patent equipment ,they have decades of experience in ultrasonic and radar and infared equipment to name a few so im sure all these are passed on to the security sector of their portfolia.kinda stacks up in their favour !!!

KoolKid

Like I said baz. Tunnel vision from some with little experience or knowledge of the industry as a whole. We have some here who don't install Visonic and yet are critical of such a large established company. We have others who won't state how many Visonic systems they have installed but yet feel qualified enough to slate a company they whose equipment they have little or no experience with.
Again I'll ask Thunderbird2 how many Visonic systems have you installed that you are basing your opinions on?
Strange how he won't answer this question?

John Kelly of

bazbrady wrote: »

also a major amount of alarms in other conutries dont use shock sensors ,seems to be a big thing in ireland,again lots of friends of mine working in security industry abroad dont use shocks for lots of reasons,so are all these countries security companies wrong in how they approach security on buildings and all yous right !!!!,i have several friends who have visonic alarms installed and two of them had their windows glass cut to gain entry which i would consider a low pulse and the shocks went off...imagine that a low end alarm detecting small vibrations on a window!!!!pros and cons to every alarm model, wish some of the installers on this forum would work abroad and see that alot of security installations dont use shocks for different reason ..hung up on hkc ...its getting tiring listening to people on this forum constantly go on about how poor visonic alarms are.its simple not correct or accurate information.the shock contacts are out for the powermaster models just havent arrived here yet have a look at visonics website...they clearly show them as a new addition to accesories...

Thats the same argument the visonic rep uses, he comes out with "who cares about shocks anyway you Irish are the only ones who use them, if you acted like the rest of the world and used curtain pirs etc. then it wouldn't be an issue" I have thought about using curtain pirs which are easier to install and cheaper than alarming windows and are used by a competitor of mine where I operate who can undercut me it and I am still not willing to use them.
Now think about it. Would you prefer the burglar to be already in your house before the alarm goes off or would you prefer the alarm to go off when the burglar starts to tamper with you window? If you are relying on pirs they have to be inside your house remember?
If your answer is yes then the rest of the world is wrong and the Irish are right.

John Kelly of

I'd say that there might be someone posting here who work for Visonic.
A big Israeli company like Visonic is bound to have employees who are paid to patrol the web setting up fake personalities building up a load of posts on rubbish topics to cloak themselves etc. and then pretending to be neutral observers in tech forums;)
An Irish company like hkc would be wise to have the same sort of employees on the payroll in order to counter such tactics and mabye they do.

KoolKid

If you feel somone here is shilling feel free to report it and we will look into it. Shilling is something that is taken very seriously here.
There is a user from HKC with an account, there is also a user from Visonic. We all know who they are and they are in no way involved in what you are suggesting.

John Kelly of

Nah I'm just speculating. If someone was to do something like that they would be very good at it, very subtle and hard to spot but you can bet a big corporation would have people doing exactly that.

Thunderbird2

Sorry koolkid I do have a busy life off of boards and I am not always available to answer your questions ..
1 ) you yourself have said visonic systems are a low and system ..
2) can you tell me the EXACT number of visonic panels you have installed and repaired ? Hell what about Siemens and HKC systems .
3) the main problems I've had with visonic systems are
4)Batteries not lasting .
5)Interference from other devices .
6)Limited voice vocab.
7)No warning in some cases of low batteries .
8)The voice dialler does not give an exact alarm event compared to HKC .
9)condensation in the micro sensors .
10) sensors dropping signals .
All this while working with reputable companies ......
I'd say 28 - 30 systems ......

Have you used a Yale or response system ? What experience of these systems are you basing your opinions on ? After all visonic systems are considered DIY ..

Egar to hear your reply .