Kilkenny GAA Discussion Thread Mod Warning Post # 5885 #4894 & #5202

pmy.murphy

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Am I right that there's no senior fixtures this weekend? It's the Boro's year lads, I'm telling ye!

No Senior fixtures just the Emeralds V Gowran Intermediate game which is to be replayed and the Junior Championship. Like the kings of hurling and football returned to the top I think it will be the same in the club scene this year. Ballyhale to win it for me

dirkmeister

Junior quarter finals and the Emeralds v Gowran replay are on this weekend

savannahkat

pmy.murphy wrote: »

No Senior fixtures just the Emeralds V Gowran Intermediate game which is to be replayed and the Junior Championship. Like the kings of hurling and football returned to the top I think it will be the same in the club scene this year. Ballyhale to win it for me

I prefer Realt Dearg's prediction

citykat

Can't see past ballyhale either. Normally as this time of year rolls around, one or other of their big guns are out injured. Not this year. TJ and Colin May be weary from the years exertions but they should have enough left in the tank. After all his trouble earlier I the season, Mick seems to be getting back to full fitness. Henry must be chomping at the bit to prove to all there's still life in the old dog. Ditto Holden should be out to prove a point. Unless the draw is particularly unkind, can't see them being beaten.

EIRE1922

dirtyden wrote: »

And what did the unprecedented questioning of B Kelly's integrity give the impression of? There is such a thing as bad winners too.

Are you saying Kilkenny are bad winners? :rolleyes: You are grasping at straws there! The truth is Barry Kelly was a brutal in the drawn game. Now if you cannot see that from the wood from the trees, go watch the video again!

Tipperary are bitter losers. Ha..ha.

pmy.murphy

citykat wrote: »

Can't see past ballyhale either. Normally as this time of year rolls around, one or other of their big guns are out injured. Not this year. TJ and Colin May be weary from the years exertions but they should have enough left in the tank. After all his trouble earlier I the season, Mick seems to be getting back to full fitness. Henry must be chomping at the bit to prove to all there's still life in the old dog. Ditto Holden should be out to prove a point. Unless the draw is particularly unkind, can't see them being beaten.

Agree completely, one of Clara, O Loughlins and Ballyhale to win it for me with Ballyhale my pick. If ballyhale can keep it tight at the back which I think they will compared to how erratic they were last year then I cant see anyone else taking them out.

Ballyhale still have Eamonn Walsh out too but I hear hes gone for good anyway due to persistant injuries

Charlie69

citykat wrote: »

Can't see past ballyhale either. Normally as this time of year rolls around, one or other of their big guns are out injured. Not this year. TJ and Colin May be weary from the years exertions but they should have enough left in the tank. After all his trouble earlier I the season, Mick seems to be getting back to full fitness. Henry must be chomping at the bit to prove to all there's still life in the old dog. Ditto Holden should be out to prove a point. Unless the draw is particularly unkind, can't see them being beaten.

How's Mick Fennelly's ankle? heard he injured it again towards the end of the final, although he seemed to be moving alright during the celebrations

DoctaDee

DoctaDee wrote: »

MOD - OK that's enough, the thread has derailed and is going around in circles with regards the referee in the drawn game. Why the subject of the referee is being brought up in the KK County thread rather than the match thread is beyond me - for other than the fact of getting the greatest reaction here. Discussing the performance of the ref in the county thread is now an instant ban. There's been enough warnings.

EIRE1922 wrote: »

Are you saying Kilkenny are bad winners? :rolleyes: You are grasping at straws there! The truth is Barry Kelly was a brutal in the drawn game. Now if you cannot see that from the wood from the trees, go watch the video again!

Tipperary are bitter losers. Ha..ha.

Banned

dastardly00

Charlie69 wrote: »

How's Mick Fennelly's ankle? heard he injured it again towards the end of the final, although he seemed to be moving alright during the celebrations

That would be some disaster if he was injured again.

As an aside, I reckon he was only able to produce about 80% of his potential during the replay. He was a bit sluggish and he got blocked/hooked a couple of times. He still had a great game, but I'd love it if he could get back to being 100% fit and match sharp. The man is the ultimate player imo.

citykat

Charlie69 wrote: »

How's Mick Fennelly's ankle? heard he injured it again towards the end of the final, although he seemed to be moving alright during the celebrations

Sorry Charlie no idea on the ankle. Hadn't heard of any injury.

pmy.murphy

You would wonder if Cha Fitzpatrick will be involved in the Shamrocks Championship campaign after he was missing from the panel earlier in the season for them for a couple games after rumours of a row between himself and management

Hitchens

Henry Shefflin is the real deal, a true legend following Saturday's hurling final replay in which he gained a record 10th All-Ireland winner's medal.

Whether 'King Henry the Tenth' has fully come to terms with this stunning achievement in the immediate aftermath of his county's 35th Liam MacCarthy Cup success is a question only he can answer.

It may only be in the fullness of time after his retirement that the maestro will fully absorb the magnificence and the relevance of his achievements in the black and amber jersey over the last 16 seasons.

Winning, of course, is inseparable from bestowing greatness on any sporting hero. A 'one-in-a-row' man is just not going to cut it in the debating chamber when judgement calls about the greatest in history are delivered.

The question must be posed however: are we solely to adjudicate on a player's worth by the number of All-Ireland medals in his possession? Is that too simplistic a proposition?

Hurling is a team sport. Shefflin - no less than Tommy Walsh who has nine senior medals as does JJ Delaney and Noel Hickey - could not have succeeded on his own.

Nature and nurture within his Kilkenny birthplace ensured that the game would become part of Henry Shefflin's DNA, but the qualities within the man were brought to fruition by a combination of circumstances, not least of which was the arrival on the scene of Brian Cody as manager.

Shefflin would be the first to admit that he flourished in the cause of the greater good of Kilkenny hurling, but equally nobody can argue about his awesome contribution to the success of the Noresiders since 1999.

And while the haul of medals offers tangible reward for Henry's years of dedication to the game, hurling is the ultimate winner, for Shefflin epitomises the essence of Muhammad Ali's insight into great champions.

He could not have achieved what he did without the dream, the desire, and the vision that sustained him, particularly during his more recent injury-afflicted seasons.

These are the qualities which elevated not only Henry Shefflin, but also fellow giants, men who stand apart in the pantheon of true greats of the game.

The magic number '10' may be the tie-breaker in any argument as to who is the Greatest Hurler of All time, but let's reflect on the stars whose enduring reputation puts them right up there in the company of heroes alongside Henry Shefflin.

Longevity, consistent performance at the highest level, awesome skill, great inner drive, refusal to wilt under hits and intimidation, and leadership are the qualities associated with such luminaries as Jack Lynch of Cork, Jimmy Doyle (Tipperary), Eddie Keher (Kilkenny), Christy Ring (Cork), John Doyle (Tipperary), Mick Mackey (Limerick), Brian Whelahan of Offaly and, yes, Shefflin's team-mates JJ Delaney and Tommy Walsh.

Walsh and Delaney, who may yet join Henry as holders of ten All-Ireland winner's medals, were too young to have made the GAA Hurling Team of the Millennium in 2000, but the other seven players mentioned above were chosen on the mythical team.

Interesting to note, too, that when not restricted to selecting a 'top 15 team', most supporters and observers opt for the forwards in any discussion of all-time greats.

Defenders and midfielders get their due, but when it comes to the crunch, the heroes who ply their trade in the frontline trenches and who surmount all odds, mental, physical, and emotional, to produce the scores that win All-Irelands and big games claim the limelight - and rightly so.

This was evident when, in 2009, the 'Irish Independent' produced a comprehensive ranking list of the top 125 greatest stars of the GAA to mark the Association's 125th year of existence.

Heroes

A huge degree of research, debate, and trawling through statistics was undertaken before the ranking list was decided and published.

Significantly, Shefflin was the number one in hurling, and by that time, DJ Carey's eminence was also recognised as he took fourth place.

The top ten of that '125 Greatest Hurlers' list was: 1 Henry Shefflin (Kilkenny); 2 Christy Ring (Cork); 3 Jimmy Doyle (Tipperary); 4 DJ Carey (Kilkenny); 5 Eddie Keher (Kilkenny), 6 Nicky Rackard (Wexford); 7 Brian Whelahan (Offaly); 8 Mick Mackey (Limerick); 9 Lory Meagher (Kilkenny); 10 Tommy Walsh (Kilkenny).

It's stunning to think that five years ago when he had 'only' seven Liam MacCarthy Cup mementoes to his credit - he was two behind Noel Skehan (9), and one off John Doyle (8) and Christy Ring (8) - Shefflin was already deemed to be the best of the best in 125 years of hurling history.

Greater than Ring? Greater than Jimmy Doyle, and DJ Carey and Eddie Keher and the rest of them?

The answer was 'yes' then, and given his feat of winning all his ten medals on the field of play - Noel Skehan, for example, won three of his as a non-playing substitute - those who may put forward the proposition that Shefflin should be pushed somewhere down the list are unlikely to gain traction with that argument.

There are other magnificent hurlers who have won a single or a couple of All-Irelands, and some who never got to lift the prized trophy on the first Sunday in September.

They suffered from a combination of factors outside their control.

Some were born in counties that only occasionally reached the top table, others played during periods when traditional giants such as Cork, Tipperary, and Kilkenny were consistently dominant.

Intrepid sons of Limerick such as Eamonn Cregan, Pat Hartigan and Joe McKenna, and Galway's John Connolly, only won one All-Ireland, but are recognised as great hurlers.

And what of counties that tried and failed to break the All-Ireland barrier?

Didn't men such as Ken McGrath and John Mullane and Tony Browne and Dan 'The Man' Shanahan deserve to bring the fabled trophy home in triumph to Waterford for the first time since 1959?

Sadly, sentiment has no place in sport, and did not ultimately reward the Deise men despite some epic championship battles in the last 15 years.

For now, we salute King Henry as the greatest hurler in GAA history, and wonder: who can oust him?

Will there be a new number one on the 'Top 140' or 'Top 150' when the 'Irish Independent' publishes the 2024 and 2034 all-time rankings?

The man who can do that will have to be a mighty player - and will probably hail from Kilkenny!

Irish Independent

- See more at: http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/few-real-rivals-to-king-henrys-throne-30631309.html#sthash.PY6XCYdz.dpuf

Kkboy

pmy.murphy wrote: »

Agree completely, one of Clara, O Loughlins and Ballyhale to win it for me with Ballyhale my pick. If ballyhale can keep it tight at the back which I think they will compared to how erratic they were last year then I cant see anyone else taking them out.

Ballyhale still have Eamonn Walsh out too but I hear hes gone for good anyway due to persistant injuries

Any chance of the Rower causing a surprise, plenty of good hurlers but seem a bit uneven through the team.

pmy.murphy

Kkboy wrote: »

Any chance of the Rower causing a surprise, plenty of good hurlers but seem a bit uneven through the team.

Indeed they certainly have it in them to cause a shock but their definately not good enough to go on and win it. They topped a weak enough group, The Village arent anything special either so it will be interesting to see how they go when they come up against the bigger teams from the other group. They are fairly uneven in parts as you said a 2 or 3 very average hurlers in the team

Kkboy

Big win for Bennettsbridge yesterday, 3 players on the Kilkenny minors and 4 players on the under 21 team this year, amasing how things swing at underage in Kilkenny.

tbiggertycome

I put together a KIlkenny team based on those in each position with the most All Ireland medals. This is not to say this is a team of our best ever players but a team of our most rewarded with All Ireland medals.

1- Noel Skehan- 9 medals- won between 1963-1983

2- Michael Kavanagh- 8 medals- won between 2000-2011
3- Noel Hickey- 9 medals- won between 2000-2012
4- Jackie Tyrrell- 8 medals- won between 2003-present

5- Tommy Walsh- 9 medals- won between 2002-present
6- Dick "Drug" Walsh- 7 medals- won between 1904-1913
7- JJ Delaney- 9 medals- won between 2002-present

8- Frank Cummins- 8 medals- won between 1967-1983
9- Michael Fennelly- 7 medals- won between 2006-2014

10- Dick Doyle- 7 medals- won between 1904-1913
11- Henry Shefflin- 10 medals- won between 2000-present
12- Eoin Larkin- 7 medals- won between 2006-2014

13- Eddie Brennan- 8 medals- won between 2000-2011
14- Sim Walton- 7 medals- won between 1904-1913
15- Aidan "Taggy" Fogarty- 8 medals- won between 2003-present

16- PJ Ryan- 7 medals- won between 2002-2011
17- Jack Rochford- 7 medals- won between 1904-1913
18- Brian Hogan- 7 medals- won between 2006-2014
19- Paddy "Icy" Lanigan- 7 medals- won between 1904-1913
20- Dan Kennedy- 6 medals- won between 1905-1913
21- Jack Keoghan- 6 medals- won between 1905-1913
22- Jim Treacy- 6 medals- won between 1963-1975
23- Matt Gargan- 6 medals- won between 1905-1913
24- Derek Lyng- 6 medals- won between 2002-2009
25- Richie Power- 7 medals- won between 2006-present
26- Eddie Keher- 6 medals- won between 1963-1975
27- Jim "Wren" Kelly 6 medals- won between 1905-1913
28- Eddie Doyle- 6 medals- won between 1904-1912
29- Martin "Gorta" Comerford- 6 medals- won between 2002-2009
30- Richie Hogan- 6 medals- won between 2007-present



Kilkenny have won 851 SHC medals won by 362 players.
1 player x 10 medals- all other counties- 0 players
4 players x 9 medals- all other counties- 0 players
5 players x 8 medals- all other counties- 2 players-John Doyle, Christy Ring
10 players x 7medals- all other counties- 0 players
14 players x 6 medals- all other counties- 1 player-Jimmy Doyle
14 players x 5 medals- all other counties- 23 players
21 players x 4 medals- all other counties- 25 players
45 players x 3 medals- all other counties- 79 players
74 players x 2 medals- all other counties- 194 players
174 players x 1 medals- count them yourselves

dastardly00

^^^
Nice work there tbiggertycome. Interesting stuff.

randd1

tbiggertycome wrote: »

I put together a KIlkenny team based on those in each position with the most All Ireland medals. This is not to say this is a team of our best ever players but a team of our most rewarded with All Ireland medals.

1- Noel Skehan- 9 medals- won between 1963-1983

2- Michael Kavanagh- 8 medals- won between 2000-2011
3- Noel Hickey- 9 medals- won between 2000-2012
4- Jackie Tyrrell- 8 medals- won between 2003-present

5- Tommy Walsh- 9 medals- won between 2002-present
6- Dick "Drug" Walsh- 7 medals- won between 1904-1913
7- JJ Delaney- 9 medals- won between 2002-present

8- Frank Cummins- 8 medals- won between 1967-1983
9- Michael Fennelly- 7 medals- won between 2006-2014

10- Dick Doyle- 7 medals- won between 1904-1913
11- Henry Shefflin- 10 medals- won between 2000-present
12- Eoin Larkin- 7 medals- won between 2006-2014

13- Eddie Brennan- 8 medals- won between 2000-2011
14- Sim Walton- 7 medals- won between 1904-1913
15- Aidan "Taggy" Fogarty- 8 medals- won between 2003-present

16- PJ Ryan- 7 medals- won between 2002-2011
17- Jack Rochford- 7 medals- won between 1904-1913
18- Brian Hogan- 7 medals- won between 2006-2014
19- Paddy "Icy" Lanigan- 7 medals- won between 1904-1913
20- Dan Kennedy- 6 medals- won between 1905-1913
21- Jack Keoghan- 6 medals- won between 1905-1913
22- Jim Treacy- 6 medals- won between 1963-1975
23- Matt Gargan- 6 medals- won between 1905-1913
24- Derek Lyng- 6 medals- won between 2002-2009
25- Richie Power- 7 medals- won between 2006-present
26- Eddie Keher- 6 medals- won between 1963-1975
27- Jim "Wren" Kelly 6 medals- won between 1905-1913
28- Eddie Doyle- 6 medals- won between 1904-1912
29- Martin "Gorta" Comerford- 6 medals- won between 2002-2009
30- Richie Hogan- 6 medals- won between 2007-present



Kilkenny have won 851 SHC medals won by 362 players.
1 player x 10 medals- all other counties- 0 players
4 players x 9 medals- all other counties- 0 players
5 players x 8 medals- all other counties- 2 players-John Doyle, Christy Ring
10 players x 7medals- all other counties- 0 players
14 players x 6 medals- all other counties- 1 player-Jimmy Doyle
14 players x 5 medals- all other counties- 23 players
21 players x 4 medals- all other counties- 25 players
45 players x 3 medals- all other counties- 79 players
74 players x 2 medals- all other counties- 194 players
174 players x 1 medals- count them yourselves

Incredible stats. Absolutely incredible.

Fergus_Nash

tbiggertycome wrote: »

Kilkenny have won 851 SHC medals won by 362 players.
1 player x 10 medals- all other counties- 0 players
4 players x 9 medals- all other counties- 0 players
5 players x 8 medals- all other counties- 2 players-John Doyle, Christy Ring
10 players x 7medals- all other counties- 0 players
14 players x 6 medals- all other counties- 1 player-Jimmy Doyle
14 players x 5 medals- all other counties- 23 players
21 players x 4 medals- all other counties- 25 players
45 players x 3 medals- all other counties- 79 players
74 players x 2 medals- all other counties- 194 players
174 players x 1 medals- count them yourselves

The stat about players winning more than 5 medals, 34 against 3, that's crazy. Surprised there aren't more people who won >5 medals though, surely there were Cork and Tipperary players who had careers matching Ring and the Doyles.

zetecescort

Jack Lynch won 6 medals in a row, 4 in a row hurling, a football and another hurling

Hitchens

zetecescort wrote: »

Jack Lynch won 6 medals in a row, 4 in a row hurling, a football and another hurling

is that what he claimed? .........he had a very bad memory y'know :pac:

tbiggertycome

zetecescort wrote: »

Jack Lynch won 6 medals in a row, 4 in a row hurling, a football and another hurling

I know Lynch had the football but I'm only counting hurling medals. I'm not a 100% on the other counties I'm obviously not going to spend as long on them as I am on Kilkenny lads. Jack Lynch was incredible in winning AI's 1941, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46 but 45 was football as you rightly pointed out but that still only leaves him with 5 hurling medals.

Hitchens

Very interesting article by Eamon Sweeney in today's Sunday Independent.

Don't you just love the attempt this past week to turn Brian Cody's comments about referee Barry Kelly into some kind of major moral indictment of the Kilkenny manager?

In other words, after perhaps the finest achievement of the finest managerial career in the history of the GAA, the focus has not been on how Cody managed to steer an aging team to its tenth All-Ireland in 15 years against one of the finest sides they've ever played, but on his comments about the referee of the drawn final.

What were these comments? As someone who saw the reaction before I saw what Cody had said, I presumed he'd engaged in a lengthy and ferocious diatribe about the referee's record. What he actually said was: "At the end of the day they were handed an opportunity with the last puck of the game the last day in the wrong to win the game.
They were handed an opportunity to win by a complete wrong decision. We didn't speak about it the last day but it was criminal what was done the last day. And people can say that I am whinging and moaning all they like but I am telling the truth here."

It's customary in cases of over-reaction to seize on a word or phrase and flog the living daylights out of it. In this particular instance 'criminal' is the one being zeroed in upon by the takers of fabricated umbrage. Seán Sheridan, chairman of the county board in Kelly's native Westmeath, said the county would be "taking it further down the line," before darkly musing, "I just wonder what he means by the word 'criminal' because it means a lot of things to me."

Despite popular prejudice to the contrary, it's actually quite rare for a complete simpleton to become a county board chairman so we'll presume Seán doesn't actually think Brian Cody was suggesting Barry Kelly had broken the law and should be arrested. But, given that Westmeath have just endured a year where their county senior teams won a remarkable two competitive games out of 18, you'd imagine they might have something better to do than trying to cause trouble for the manager of another county.

In fairness, the man wasn't alone. Pundits clambered up on the high ground to assail Cody for insulting the spirit of sportsmanship and the game of hurling, while some of the coverage verged on what our friends in the North used to call 'felon setting'. The Central Competitions Control Committee of the GAA are apparently going to look at the matter. And there are quite a few people out there who'd like to see them punish Brian Cody, perhaps by imposing a touchline ban. They've had trouble hiding their glee. It's been a lovely week.

Let's not be hypocritical or disingenuous about things. The relationship between Barry Kelly and the Kilkenny hurling team is unique in the GAA. In fact I'm not sure if there's ever been a relationship like it between team and ref. And that's because in two of the last three years Kelly has given controversial last-second decisions which could have cost Kilkenny the All-Ireland. And in the other year he gave a controversial decision which probably resulted in their being knocked out of the championship. Brian Cody may have been thinking of more than one decision when he made his comments.

Two years ago Kilkenny were leading Galway by a point in injury-time in the final when Kelly awarded the Tribesmen a free which Joe Canning scored to draw the match. Even people who thought Kelly had given a fine display found the free hard to fathom - most people didn't think it was a free. Kilkenny won the replay but you can imagine Cody was somewhat irritated with a decision which had prevented them from closing things out first time.

Last year Kelly sent off Henry Shefflin in Kilkenny's quarter-final against Cork. Again the decision was controversial, and the first yellow awarded to Shefflin was subsequently overturned on appeal. Which meant, in other words, he shouldn't have suffered the red card which turned the game Cork's way.

And in this year's final came the call which officially provoked Cody's ire. Opinion is split on this one but it seemed a mighty big call to make in the last seconds of a tied game. John O'Dwyer was only inches away from making it the free which gave Tipperary victory. Kelly had also, by the way, given a dubious penalty to Tipp earlier in the game.

Referees get things wrong. And Kilkenny have benefited from this as well. In the 2009 final I thought Diarmuid Kirwan gave the big decisions their way and may have cost Tipperary victory, while in the 2012 replay Galway probably had grounds to be aggrieved with James McGrath.

But Barry Kelly's string of big decisions, their timing and the importance they might have had, are unusual. I'm not implying anything sinister by this in the least. GAA refs give decisions the way they honestly see them. But it's ridiculous to portray this as Cody launching a random attack on a referee over one decision. Like it or not, there's history there.

There are some people who think that certain referees let Kilkenny away with murder. And they felt that Kelly distinguished himself in the 2012 final by clamping down on the Cats and should actually have been given the replay as a reward, last-gasp mistake notwithstanding. I don't agree with this or with the notion that Kilkenny's success owes something to lax officiating. It seems to me nothing more than old-fashioned begrudgery.
And the eagerness to take up the cudgels on Kelly's behalf strikes me as another manifestation of this begrudgery.

Davy Fitzgerald's summer included plenty of criticism of referees, a tunnel row with a journalist and a bizarre impersonation of Achilles sulking in his tent at half-time. I don't remember a flood of articles calling for him to be punished and taking him to task for his attitude. Or indeed any punishment from the CCCC. Dublin manager Jim Gavin criticised the referee of last year's football final in forthright terms too. Where was the condemnation then? Where was the punishment?

I'm not saying Fitzgerald or Gavin should have been punished. In fact I think managers should be entitled to criticise a referee if they feel he gave a bad display. Forbidding them to do so makes them look shifty and dishonest as they try to sneak in the criticism in some way which won't see them punished. Cody told the truth about how he felt. And if the GAA are in the business of punishing people for telling the truth, it's a poor reflection on the Association.

I admire Brian Cody and Kilkenny. But not uncritically. I criticised them last year for their treatment of Lar Corbett in a league match and this year I was telling the truth when I said I hoped Limerick would beat them in the semi-final. But the persistent denigration of what is, after all, the finest team in the history of the GAA really gets on my wick.

Those persistent innuendos about the physicality of their play are just one example. And the blatant attempts to land Brian Cody in the shít last week are another. There was a distinct 'running to the teacher with tales' feel about a lot of the coverage.

The worst thing is that I suspect it's the best aspects of Brian Cody's character which are held against him. In an age where managers who win even one All-Ireland are bestowed with a guru's mantle which they often don with relish, he is refreshingly modest. He cuts an old-fashioned figure in his refusal to blow his own trumpet. His team are similarly low-key. They prefer to walk the walk than talk the talk. Yet they've been criticised for their suspicion of hype when this is probably the very thing which enables them to keep winning All-Irelands year after year.

We all know how this game works. The detractors want to force Brian Cody to say he's sorry and make one of those insincere apologies which are such a marvellous part of Irish life. And then they'll leave him alone for a while. Because they'll think they got one up on Cody, that in some way this is a victory for those detractors who'll never forgive Kilkenny for not just being successful but for doing it their own way.

It's pathetic stuff on their part but what can you do? As they say in the projects of Tullaroan and Carrickshock, haters gonna hate. Personally I think that if the rest of us conducted our lives the way Brian Cody has conducted his, we'd be doing well. But maybe that's just me.

- Eamon Sweeney
05/10/2014

citykat

Hitchens wrote: »

Very interesting article by Eamon Sweeney in today's Sunday Independent.

Don't you just love the attempt this past week to turn Brian Cody's comments about referee Barry Kelly into some kind of major moral indictment of the Kilkenny manager?

In other words, after perhaps the finest achievement of the finest managerial career in the history of the GAA, the focus has not been on how Cody managed to steer an aging team to its tenth All-Ireland in 15 years against one of the finest sides they've ever played, but on his comments about the referee of the drawn final.

What were these comments? As someone who saw the reaction before I saw what Cody had said, I presumed he'd engaged in a lengthy and ferocious diatribe about the referee's record. What he actually said was: "At the end of the day they were handed an opportunity with the last puck of the game the last day in the wrong to win the game.
They were handed an opportunity to win by a complete wrong decision. We didn't speak about it the last day but it was criminal what was done the last day. And people can say that I am whinging and moaning all they like but I am telling the truth here."

It's customary in cases of over-reaction to seize on a word or phrase and flog the living daylights out of it. In this particular instance 'criminal' is the one being zeroed in upon by the takers of fabricated umbrage. Seán Sheridan, chairman of the county board in Kelly's native Westmeath, said the county would be "taking it further down the line," before darkly musing, "I just wonder what he means by the word 'criminal' because it means a lot of things to me."

Despite popular prejudice to the contrary, it's actually quite rare for a complete simpleton to become a county board chairman so we'll presume Seán doesn't actually think Brian Cody was suggesting Barry Kelly had broken the law and should be arrested. But, given that Westmeath have just endured a year where their county senior teams won a remarkable two competitive games out of 18, you'd imagine they might have something better to do than trying to cause trouble for the manager of another county.

In fairness, the man wasn't alone. Pundits clambered up on the high ground to assail Cody for insulting the spirit of sportsmanship and the game of hurling, while some of the coverage verged on what our friends in the North used to call 'felon setting'. The Central Competitions Control Committee of the GAA are apparently going to look at the matter. And there are quite a few people out there who'd like to see them punish Brian Cody, perhaps by imposing a touchline ban. They've had trouble hiding their glee. It's been a lovely week.

Let's not be hypocritical or disingenuous about things. The relationship between Barry Kelly and the Kilkenny hurling team is unique in the GAA. In fact I'm not sure if there's ever been a relationship like it between team and ref. And that's because in two of the last three years Kelly has given controversial last-second decisions which could have cost Kilkenny the All-Ireland. And in the other year he gave a controversial decision which probably resulted in their being knocked out of the championship. Brian Cody may have been thinking of more than one decision when he made his comments.

Two years ago Kilkenny were leading Galway by a point in injury-time in the final when Kelly awarded the Tribesmen a free which Joe Canning scored to draw the match. Even people who thought Kelly had given a fine display found the free hard to fathom - most people didn't think it was a free. Kilkenny won the replay but you can imagine Cody was somewhat irritated with a decision which had prevented them from closing things out first time.

Last year Kelly sent off Henry Shefflin in Kilkenny's quarter-final against Cork. Again the decision was controversial, and the first yellow awarded to Shefflin was subsequently overturned on appeal. Which meant, in other words, he shouldn't have suffered the red card which turned the game Cork's way.

And in this year's final came the call which officially provoked Cody's ire. Opinion is split on this one but it seemed a mighty big call to make in the last seconds of a tied game. John O'Dwyer was only inches away from making it the free which gave Tipperary victory. Kelly had also, by the way, given a dubious penalty to Tipp earlier in the game.

Referees get things wrong. And Kilkenny have benefited from this as well. In the 2009 final I thought Diarmuid Kirwan gave the big decisions their way and may have cost Tipperary victory, while in the 2012 replay Galway probably had grounds to be aggrieved with James McGrath.

But Barry Kelly's string of big decisions, their timing and the importance they might have had, are unusual. I'm not implying anything sinister by this in the least. GAA refs give decisions the way they honestly see them. But it's ridiculous to portray this as Cody launching a random attack on a referee over one decision. Like it or not, there's history there.

There are some people who think that certain referees let Kilkenny away with murder. And they felt that Kelly distinguished himself in the 2012 final by clamping down on the Cats and should actually have been given the replay as a reward, last-gasp mistake notwithstanding. I don't agree with this or with the notion that Kilkenny's success owes something to lax officiating. It seems to me nothing more than old-fashioned begrudgery.
And the eagerness to take up the cudgels on Kelly's behalf strikes me as another manifestation of this begrudgery.

Davy Fitzgerald's summer included plenty of criticism of referees, a tunnel row with a journalist and a bizarre impersonation of Achilles sulking in his tent at half-time. I don't remember a flood of articles calling for him to be punished and taking him to task for his attitude. Or indeed any punishment from the CCCC. Dublin manager Jim Gavin criticised the referee of last year's football final in forthright terms too. Where was the condemnation then? Where was the punishment?

I'm not saying Fitzgerald or Gavin should have been punished. In fact I think managers should be entitled to criticise a referee if they feel he gave a bad display. Forbidding them to do so makes them look shifty and dishonest as they try to sneak in the criticism in some way which won't see them punished. Cody told the truth about how he felt. And if the GAA are in the business of punishing people for telling the truth, it's a poor reflection on the Association.

I admire Brian Cody and Kilkenny. But not uncritically. I criticised them last year for their treatment of Lar Corbett in a league match and this year I was telling the truth when I said I hoped Limerick would beat them in the semi-final. But the persistent denigration of what is, after all, the finest team in the history of the GAA really gets on my wick.

Those persistent innuendos about the physicality of their play are just one example. And the blatant attempts to land Brian Cody in the shít last week are another. There was a distinct 'running to the teacher with tales' feel about a lot of the coverage.

The worst thing is that I suspect it's the best aspects of Brian Cody's character which are held against him. In an age where managers who win even one All-Ireland are bestowed with a guru's mantle which they often don with relish, he is refreshingly modest. He cuts an old-fashioned figure in his refusal to blow his own trumpet. His team are similarly low-key. They prefer to walk the walk than talk the talk. Yet they've been criticised for their suspicion of hype when this is probably the very thing which enables them to keep winning All-Irelands year after year.

We all know how this game works. The detractors want to force Brian Cody to say he's sorry and make one of those insincere apologies which are such a marvellous part of Irish life. And then they'll leave him alone for a while. Because they'll think they got one up on Cody, that in some way this is a victory for those detractors who'll never forgive Kilkenny for not just being successful but for doing it their own way.

It's pathetic stuff on their part but what can you do? As they say in the projects of Tullaroan and Carrickshock, haters gonna hate. Personally I think that if the rest of us conducted our lives the way Brian Cody has conducted his, we'd be doing well. But maybe that's just me.

- Eamon Sweeney
05/10/2014

Sweeney won't be getting too many Xmas cards from his fellow hacks after that piece. The greatest irony for me in this is all the journos lining up to criticise Cody for speaking his mind. I presume these same people would cry foul if free speech were to be curtailed.

Mountainlad

citykat wrote: »

Sweeney won't be getting too many Xmas cards from his fellow hacks after that piece. The greatest irony for me in this is all the journos lining up to criticise Cody for speaking his mind. I presume these same people would cry foul if free speech were to be curtailed.

Did any of ye get the Sunday times yesterday by any chance?

Was told second hand that Denis Walsh said that not all of Cody's response was printed as there was a potentially libellous remark made. Dying sick so didn't get out for the paper. Anyone able to post up the relevant bit if the article?

Fwank wizzo

Mountainlad wrote: »

Did any of ye get the Sunday times yesterday by any chance?

Was told second hand that Denis Walsh said that not all of Cody's response was printed as there was a potentially libellous remark made. Dying sick so didn't get out for the paper. Anyone able to post up the relevant bit if the article?

Why would anyone from KK put up an article like that by Denis Walsh on a Kilkenny thread? Seems to me you can't get enough of this controversy because here again you're trying to stir it up.

I think Eamon Sweeney hit the nail on the head about lads going out of their way to put the boot into Cody for calling a spade a spade.

Mountainlad

Fwank wizzo wrote: »

Why would anyone from KK put up an article like that by Denis Walsh on a Kilkenny thread? Seems to me you can't get enough of this controversy because here again you're trying to stir it up.

I think Eamon Sweeney hit the nail on the head about lads going out of their way to put the boot into Cody for calling a spade a spade.

I'm not trying to stir it, but was wondering if anyone read it. I would doubt for example if I asked on the Donegal Thread that they would be able to post it up.

There's no slant in the previous message, it was just a question. Obviously you don't have a copy of the Sunday Times from yesterday.

tbiggertycome

I'm not trying to bring up the whole ref thing again this is just about the semantics and meaning of what Cody said and in particular the word criminal. I knew exactly what Cody meant by this when I read it. I'll give you an example: I was talking to a friend about who might retire and in particular the hope that Tommy wouldn't retire my words we're "It would be criminal if he retired". Now I wasn't trying to say he would break the law if he did, what I meant was it would be a really bad idea if he retired. I don't know about the rest of the country but that is often how the word is used here. So what Cody was saying was it a really bad call.

GerB40

tbiggertycome wrote: »

I'm not trying to bring up the whole ref thing again this is just about the semantics and meaning of what Cody said and in particular the word criminal. I k ew exactly what Cody meant by this when I read it. I'll give you an example: I was talking to a friend about who might retire and in particular the hope that Tommy wouldn't retire my words we're "It would be criminal if he retired". Now I wasn't trying to say he would break the law if he did, what I meant was it would be a really bad idea if he retired. I don't know about the rest of the country but that is often how the word is used here. So what Cody was saying was it a really bad call.

Everyone knew what Cody meant but the media love stirring shít to create a controversy where there is none.. Cody doesn't seem the malicious type, people just purposely misconstrued what he said. Complete non issue.

EIRE1922

Referees get things wrong. And Kilkenny have benefited from this as well. In the 2009 final I thought Diarmuid Kirwan gave the big decisions their way and may have cost Tipperary victory...

Utter rubbish. Benny Dunne got sent off rightly for a dirty pull on Tommy Walsh! Tipperary were down to 14 men!

Richie Power was foulded twice. The first was just outside the 21 yard line. The other foul was inside the sqaure. Kirwan gave the penalty. Shefflin had to go for goal as Kilkenny were behind. Even if the ref had given a 21 yard free instead, Shefflin would have still gone for it. He had scored many before for Ballyhale and for Kilkenny from that distance. He scored it! Kilkenny used their better bench on the day. Willie O'Dwyer and Michael Fennelly came on for Kilkenny and scored a point each. They in turn set up the pass for Martin Comerford who got the second goal. Game over and Kilkenny won!

So please tell me how Tipperary deserved, should have, could have, would have won that match? I suppose Tipperary should have, could have, would have been going for three-in-row too if they had won too in 2009 and 2011! :rolleyes:

In the Galway replay game in 2012 the ref could have let Galway's other goal stand. The drawn match Joe Canning had two wide balls on the far left in the second half that were given a points. The final free to Galway was never a free. Jackie Tyrell was foulded at the other end as was Tommy Walsh just after it. Galway were lucky to get a draw that day even though they did not deserve to loose it either.

Walter Walsh the second day was difference for Kilkenny!

What about the slap on T.J. Reid by Mr. Tannion in 2012 or the slap on Michael Rice in the semi-final against Tipperary in 2012 by Mr. Maher that went unpunished?

The last day against Tipperary John Power, Padráig Walsh and Kieren Joyce helped win it for Kilkenny! Along with outstanding performances by Richie Power, Conor Fogarty, Paul Murphy, Cillian Buckley and J.J. Delaney!

Mountainlad

EIRE1922 wrote: »

Richie Power was foulded twice. The first was just outside the 21 yard line. The other foul was inside the sqaure. Kirwan gave the 21 yard free and not a penalty. Shefflin had to go for goal as Kilkenny were behind. He scored it! Kilkenny used their better bench on the day. Willie O'Dwyer and Michael Fennelly came on for Kilkenny and scored a point each. They in turn set up the pass for Martin Comerford who got the second goal. Game over and Kilkenny won!

So please tell me how Tipperary deserved, should have, could have, would have won that match? I suppose Tipperary should have, could have, would have been going for three-in-row too if they had won too in 2009 and 2011! :rolleyes:

He gave a penalty, which was why there was uproar over it.

EIRE1922

Mountainlad wrote: »

He gave a penalty, which was why there was uproar over it.

Tipperary got three penos in total that were never penos against Kilkenny. Two in the drawn game and one in the replay. At the end of the day Tipperary scored 1 point from 9 - in three penalties against Kilkenny! A poor return!

EIRE1922

Mountainlad wrote: »

He gave a penalty, which was why there was uproar over it.

Yes, it was a 21 yard free or a penalty! It was still a foul on Richie Power! He gave the peno!

Mountainlad

EIRE1922 wrote: »

Tipperary got three penos in total that were never penos against Kilkenny. Two in the drawn game and one in the replay. At the end of the day Tipperary scored 1 point from 9 - three penalties against Kilkenny!

What exactly is your point there? You appreciate the effect to which the rule was changed and how statistically 2/10 penalties have been converted?

The point made was fair enough. There's no guarantee Tipp would have won but it was a big decision that went against them. Even in article extremely favorable (extremely) to Kilkenny, somebody has an issue with it.

EIRE1922

The three penalties were there to be scored regardless of the new rule change! 1 point from 9! A bad return. End of story!

pmy.murphy

Joe Brolly was also critical of Brian Cody in the Mail on Sunday, the final line of the article specifically said "with Brian Cody, respect would appear to be a one way street".

Realt Dearg Sec

pmy.murphy wrote: »

Joe Brolly was also critical of Brian Cody in the Mail on Sunday, the final line of the article specifically said "with Brian Cody, respect would appear to be a one way street".

Touching coming from a guy who said a footballer from Tyrone was no longer a man in his eyes for fouling to prevent a goal. Brolly couldn't spell respect if Aretha Franklin was roaring in his ear.

Fwank wizzo

Anyone want to take a go at predicting the winners of the senior,inter and junior championships?

I'd guess Ballyhale and the Bridge.Wouldnt have a clue for the inter,tbh.

GerB40

pmy.murphy wrote: »

Joe Brolly was also critical of Brian Cody in the Mail on Sunday, the final line of the article specifically said "with Brian Cody, respect would appear to be a one way street".

Joe Brolly is a clown, simple as that..

pmy.murphy

Fwank wizzo wrote: »

Anyone want to take a go at predicting the winners of the senior,inter and junior championships?

I'd guess Ballyhale and the Bridge.Wouldnt have a clue for the inter,tbh.

For me it will be Ballyhale, Mullinavat and the Bridge.

babyjesus14

Mountainlad wrote: »

Did any of ye get the Sunday times yesterday by any chance?

Was told second hand that Denis Walsh said that not all of Cody's response was printed as there was a potentially libellous remark made. Dying sick so didn't get out for the paper. Anyone able to post up the relevant bit if the article?

Yes, i read the Denis Walsh's article in fact i predicted what he would write about 5 days in advance. Denis Walsh is as predictable as he is tiresome at this stage when it comes to Kilkenny All-Ireland sucesses. He also referenced a comment Cody made which he couldn't publish for fear of libel, didn't read any reference to this anywhere else.
He also referred back to a Kilkenny official approaching Barry Kelly at half time in the '08 final and made the assumption that it was to abuse him. In other words Walsh is imagining/making up conversations to suit his arguement!

citykat

babyjesus14 wrote: »

Yes, i read the Denis Walsh's article in fact i predicted what he would write about 5 days in advance. Denis Walsh is as predictable as he is tiresome at this stage when it comes to Kilkenny All-Ireland sucesses. He also referenced a comment Cody made which he couldn't publish for fear of libel, didn't read any reference to this anywhere else.
He also referred back to a Kilkenny official approaching Barry Kelly at half time in the '08 final and made the assumption that it was to abuse him. In other words Walsh is imagining/making up conversations to suit his arguement!

I was wondering is it libellous to accuse, in print, somebody of saying something potentially libellous?

babyjesus14

citykat wrote: »

I was wondering is it libellous to accuse, in print, somebody of saying something potentially libellous?

Was wondering about that myself, if you are just reporting something someone else said are you or your employers libel? I tend to take what Denis Walsh says with a pinch of salt, he's completely incapable of being objective when it comes to Kilkenny.

Fwank wizzo

I wonder will the KK GAA community be available to certain journalists in the future?
Somehow I doubt it

shamco

Fwank wizzo wrote: »

I wonder will the KK GAA community be available to certain journalists in the future?
Somehow I doubt it

Surely you mean KK hurling community since ye have abandoned inter county football

Fwank wizzo

shamco wrote: »

Surely you mean KK hurling community since ye have abandoned inter county football

Not quite,
Handball is a very popular game in Kilkenny.Our fair county is and has been very successful at it on an national and indeed international level for a long time.
It always amazes me that people forget that.

clashash

Oh the weather is changing from lovely balmy days to harsh Fall, raw days. I pesume this statement will not be banned?

Hitchens

clashash wrote: »

Oh the weather is changing from lovely balmy days to harsh Fall, raw days. I pesume this statement will not be banned?

never pesume anything

Realt Dearg Sec

clashash wrote: »

Oh the weather is changing from lovely balmy days to harsh Fall, raw days. I pesume this statement will not be banned?

It should be deleted for being off topic...

Fort Stranger

You know the nice thing about this victory is that finally, no matter what happens over the next fifty years, it can never be questioned as to how great this team(s) have been. After 2010, the theory was put out there they weren't as great as had been made out and they were on the wane.
Then even after 2011 and 2012, they were still being talked down, but now they have put all teams that have gone before them (in both codes) in the shade.
The funny thing was that a cork fellow came up to me in 2005 and said we were finished, boy did he try to avoid me in the club last Saturday evening?
They can say what they like about how we hurl, blah blah but the history has been made and if we never win another there will be no taking it away from these players.