Kilkenny GAA Discussion Thread Mod Warning Post # 5885 #4894 & #5202

Wx

What's the relevance of the 07/08 team to Walter?

BC builds teams from the hurlers available, with the emphasis on teams.

Individuals are fitted together so that the team is superior to the sum of the individual players . Walter fits the current team.

I believe we saw that on Sunday; Richie H was hampered by a muscle strain, TJ didn't score a point from play and a few others were a bit below their absolute best but others came to the fore; and all the forwards, both centre fields and a half back scored.

Fort Stranger

I enjoyed the win and the lads beat everything in front of them this year. The system though is stupid when it means we can win an all Ireland beating three teams and not meeting Tipp, Clare, Cork, Dublin or Limerick who would have made five of the top seven in my book at the start of the year. This buy in the Leinster first round is a joke and as Richie Hogan said these players want more games. Having said that I think we would have beaten any of the aforementioned teams this year?

Very Bored

MfMan wrote: »

Er... and Cunningham.

Cody doesn't endear himself to many with his constant berating of sideline officials when he sees things that don't go his way. Too many managers, Galway's included, have allowed him away with too much ranting along the touchline, so there should be no complaints if he gets a bit of it back.

In the last few days we've seen complaints ranging from Kilkenny are ruining hurling to Kilkenny's fans don't care, now we land this morning into attacks on Cody... the anti-Kilkenny bitterness merry-go-round... the gift that keeps on giving...

unrealtime

ffs we have beaten every Munster team out the gate the past few years. We lost to Galway once in the championship - in 2012. Up to this year, we were the only team to have put Tipp out of the championship. we beat everything that comes up against so don't belittle our achievements. As the best we would beat them all anyway. We have a total of one backdoor All Ireland.

When Richie made his comments, all I saw was scorn and ridicule. For years I have suggested that Munster and Leinster should remain as separate competitions and the All Ireland should be an open draw.

citykat

MfMan wrote: »

Er... and Cunningham.

Cody doesn't endear himself to many with his constant berating of sideline officials when he sees things that don't go his way. Too many managers, Galway's included, have allowed him away with too much ranting along the touchline, so there should be no complaints if he gets a bit of it back.

I thought Cody was quite measured given how Owens bottled the two red cards in the first half. Owens must have wonderd why he bothered when Cunningham then slaughtered him in the post match interview

Very Bored

The main missed red card was Jonny Coen's clothesline but what was the second one? I must have missed that.

Fort Stranger

unrealtime wrote: »

ffs we have beaten every Munster team out the gate the past few years. We lost to Galway once in the championship - in 2012. Up to this year, we were the only team to have put Tipp out of the championship. we beat everything that comes up against so don't belittle our achievements. As the best we would beat them all anyway. We have a total of one backdoor All Ireland.

When Richie made his comments, all I saw was scorn and ridicule. For years I have suggested that Munster and Leinster should remain as separate competitions and the All Ireland should be an open draw.

I agree, the open draw should come in or at least go back to having the Leinster and Munster finalists going in to a quarter final and also no buy for provincial champs, we would then have at least six matches to watch!

Browney7

Fort Stranger wrote: »

I enjoyed the win and the lads beat everything in front of them this year. The system though is stupid when it means we can win an all Ireland beating three teams and not meeting Tipp, Clare, Cork, Dublin or Limerick who would have made five of the top seven in my book at the start of the year. This buy in the Leinster first round is a joke and as Richie Hogan said these players want more games. Having said that I think we would have beaten any of the aforementioned teams this year?

Kilkenny would have had all those teams numbers which you rightly point out.

The structure isn't Kilkenny's fault but the championship structure is daft but it has so many variables to cope with - club hurling, minor, under 21, replays and vested provincial interests - that structuring a "champions league" style format would be a challenge.

You can take nothing away from KK and Cody. The desire that the players either have themselves or that Cody has drilled into them is phenomenal. A team staying at the top like they have since the nineties is some achievement and not done by many teams in any sport. United under Ferguson are the obvious comparison.

If KK fans feel people have a dislike or jealousy etc, I'll say this much: No one hates bad teams!

Justice for the individual

ozymandias10 wrote: »

just to clarify it was not a penalty but a free

Sorry the two were free's - I'm still excited after the win, my head is all over the place.

MfMan

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Cunningham is welcome to make any kind of fool of himself he likes on the line, my point is simply that going out with the obvious intention of making some kind of point to Cody is basically taking your eye off the ball and getting into extraneous ****, and actually playing into Cody's hands. Sheedy got into a few verbals with Cody on occasion but it was clearly heat of the moment.

So where has Cunningham been doing this, apart from the sideline? What obvious intention? When Sheedy does it, it's in the heat of the moment; when Cunningham does it, it's bickering. His remark 'We'll see you in September' was said in a sporting context, and was actually complimentary in the sense that he expected KK to win the semi' and reach the final. Cunningham, like Cody, like all GAA managers in the game does what he feels is necessary on the day to maximise his team's chances of victory. Are you so sensitive that you see more in something than there really is?

thesultan

While Kilkenny are undoubtedly the best in the land , the conveyer belt isn't at productive as it was (21's the last few years). Clare need to stand up.

10 Carrolls

2nd red card incident also involved Colin Fennelly when his helmet was pulled off, Probably a hard one to catch in normal time but in the replays you could see a hand pull it off his head. On the subject of Colin Fennelly I thought he was outstanding on Sunday, especially in the 2nd half, his workrate was unbelievable and nearly took 2 galway men with him every time he got the ball.

MfMan

Very Bored wrote: »

In the last few days we've seen complaints ranging from Kilkenny are ruining hurling to Kilkenny's fans don't care, now we land this morning into attacks on Cody... the anti-Kilkenny bitterness merry-go-round... the gift that keeps on giving...

I was only responding to 'an attack' on Cunningham. Danganabu made the point earlier in this thread or the other one that instead of being delighted in victory, some KK contributors were grousing about Galway tactics, players etc. Are they really so joyless and austere that they can't celebrate?

As for the match itself, congrats to KK on another excellent win, somewhat against the odds given the injury situation. I really thought with all the unfitness in the squad, (how was Hogan's quad injury kept so quiet?), they would be vulnerable, but they made light of it. Neither Hogan or Reid got killer scores but the rest of the team took up the slack and pressed on. As I said before, Galway didn't lack for ability, but did lack for tactical cuteness and belief when the game was there for the taking. These are things that must be addressed but are not as easy to fix as trying to find a new half-back or midfielder. As Babs said of his team after the '88 final - "If they're men, they'll be back".

Justice for the individual

Very Bored wrote: »

The main missed red card was Jonny Coen's clothesline but what was the second one? I must have missed that.

The second one was when TJ took the ball off the line after the re-taken free. It was another tackle around the neck, a clothesline, but not as serious as the one on Colin Fennelly. When I re-looked at it later it is not as clear on the TV as when I witnessed it directly parallel to it up on Hill 16, just beside the Cusack - I had a very good view of it.

Because of Johnny Coen getting away without a red card, the ref. should have put his foot down, and shown that this was not to be tolerated. Instead the umpires and the ref. again bottled it, and did not even give a yellow card and a free out. Instead, the play was let go on, and then, don't ask me, the ref. re-awarded a free in instead which lead to the goal. I don't know who fouled TJ in that incident, but it was on Coen's side of the goal - did anyone else see that?

This meant the gap was reduced down to a flattering four points, but time had run out.

jacool

10 Carrolls wrote: »

2nd red card incident also involved Colin Fennelly when his helmet was pulled off, Probably a hard one to catch in normal time but in the replays you could see a hand pull it off his head. On the subject of Colin Fennelly I thought he was outstanding on Sunday, especially in the 2nd half, his workrate was unbelievable and nearly took 2 galway men with him every time he got the ball.

We can see lots on the replays.
A 65 awarded but overturned by the ref. (was a 65, happened under me)
A was it a point or not that didn't go to Hawkeye, both in the first half. No idea whether it was or not.
I felt the ref was told that he f***ed up and had to redress in the second half. When Donnellan was barged in the back and Joe picked the ball up for the free he conceded a free for picking off the ground.
The way KK played in the second half they needed no help at all.
The were playing 3 sweepers for 10 minutes and that wasn't through choice, just that the Galway front 6 disappeared.
The most amazing stat was that KK didn't score for an 18 minute period in the first half. Galway were not able to maintain that ferocity and when young Whelan got his chance Eoin Murphy could have thrown his hat on it, but instead watched it trickle wide.
Every KK player of the bench was as good as the one that went off. Galway had nothing bar the might David Collins to improve matters, and the Galway subs fired over 4 wides from ridiculous angles whereas KK were happy to knock the ball back 20 metres to a better placed player who knocked it over.

Justice for the individual

MfMan wrote: »

I was only responding to 'an attack' on Cunningham. Danganabu made the point earlier in this thread or the other one that instead of being delighted in victory, some KK contributors were grousing about Galway tactics, players etc. Are they really so joyless and austere that they can't celebrate?

As for the match itself, congrats to KK on another excellent win, somewhat against the odds given the injury situation. I really thought with all the unfitness in the squad, (how was Hogan's quad injury kept so quiet?), they would be vulnerable, but they made light of it. Neither Hogan or Reid got killer scores but the rest of the team took up the slack and pressed on. As I said before, Galway didn't lack for ability, but did lack for tactical cuteness and belief when the game was there for the taking. These are things that must be addressed but are not as easy to fix as trying to find a new half-back or midfielder. As Babs said of his team after the '88 final - "If they're men, they'll be back".

Cody only responds when he sees very bad decisions, not the mild borderline ones. He has every right to stand up for his players if they are tackled in reckless career threatening incidents. Some of the other managers when playing Kilkenny indulge in their own antics, and they too are expected to stand up for their own players and that is their duty, like Cody. We have to be realistic about this, a manager worth his salt backs his own team and it is up to the referee and linesmen to police it when anyone steps over the line.

Did you see one of the Galway team mentors in front of the ref. after the Coen incident, 'advising the referee', and the ref. just smiling at him? Also, as some one else on here reminded me, the pulling of the helmet from (again) Colin Fennelly (a red card offence) and nothing done.

Hogan (despite his quad and back injury) and Reid put in trojan work, and it is not just about scoring, but also about creating the openings for scoring for your team-mates too, and they did that well. TJ did get a crucial score from play - his goal, which was created by Walter.

Very Bored

Ah yeah, I saw it right enough. Though I thought it was accidental even if the rules say any messing with helmets is a red. I'm glad we won 15 v 15 though but I guess I would have been furious had we lost under the same circumstances.

I haven't got a blind clue what Cunningham had to be moaning about though.

Justice for the individual

Very Bored wrote: »

Ah yeah, I saw it right enough. Though I thought it was accidental even if the rules say any messing with helmets is a red. I'm glad we won 15 v 15 though but I guess I would have been furious had we lost under the same circumstances.

I haven't got a blind clue what Cunningham had to be moaning about though.

Cunningham's remark to Cody after the Leinster Final "I'll see you in the final" was throwing down a challenge to Cody, and Cody gave him his answer all right.
Not a very clever thing for Cunningham to be saying, the cute one's say nothing and wait in the long grass.

MfMan

Justice for the individual wrote: »

Cody only responds when he sees very bad decisions, not the mild borderline ones. He has every right to stand up for his players if they are tackled in reckless career threatening incidents. Some of the other managers when playing Kilkenny indulge in their own antics, and they too are expected to stand up for their own players and that is their duty, like Cody. We have to be realistic about this, a manager worth his salt backs his own team and it is up to the referee and linesmen to police it when anyone steps over the line.

Did you see one of the Galway team mentors in front of the ref. after the Coen incident, 'advising the referee', and the ref. just smiling at him? Also, as some one else on here reminded me, the pulling of the helmet from (again) Colin Fennelly (a red card offence) and nothing done.

Hogan (despite his quad and back injury) and Reid put in trojan work, and it is not just about scoring, but also about creating the openings for scoring for your team-mates too, and they did that well. TJ did get a crucial score from play - his goal, which was created by Walter.

Exactly, Cunningham doing it no more than Cody or any other. Why gripe at him for doing so?

What happened Canning coming up to HT? Was he taken out of it by M Fennelly? Some suggestions that he was.

MfMan

Justice for the individual wrote: »

Cunningham's remark to Cody after the Leinster Final "I'll see you in the final" was throwing down a challenge to Cody, and Cody gave him his answer all right.
Not a very clever thing for Cunningham to be saying, the cute one's say nothing and wait in the long grass.

It was absolutely nothing of the sort - it was a throwaway remark said when shaking hands at the final whistle, as you may say to an opponent 'See you later in the year again'. It was much more a challenge to his own side than to KK. Jeez, will you get a degree of perspective.

Justice for the individual

MfMan wrote: »

Exactly, Cunningham doing it no more than Cody or any other. Why gripe at him for doing so?

What happened Canning coming up to HT? Was he taken out of it by M Fennelly? Some suggestions that he was.

I tried to see if I could pick up that on the re-play - no luck, probably not picked up by the cameras. Some of the incident with Andy Smith and Mick Fennelly was off camera also - maybe instructions to pan away from these.

donnem33

Justice for the individual wrote: »

The second one was when TJ took the ball off the line after the re-taken free. It was another tackle around the neck, a clothesline, but not as serious as the one on Colin Fennelly. When I re-looked at it later it is not as clear on the TV as when I witnessed it directly parallel to it up on Hill 16, just beside the Cusack - I had a very good view of it.

Because of Johnny Coen getting away without a red card, the ref. should have put his foot down, and shown that this was not to be tolerated. Instead the umpires and the ref. again bottled it, and did not even give a yellow card and a free out. Instead, the play was let go on, and then, don't ask me, the ref. re-awarded a free in instead which lead to the goal. I don't know who fouled TJ in that incident, but it was on Coen's side of the goal - did anyone else see that?

This meant the gap was reduced down to a flattering four points, but time had run out.

dont agree but if youre going to be pedantic about that incident- what about Prendergast pulling down Whelan with the hurl across the neck in the 1st half. Or Ger Alyward pulling down Davy Burke with the hurl across the neck in the 2nd half.

droppingball

jacool wrote: »

We can see lots on the replays.
A 65 awarded but overturned by the ref. (was a 65, happened under me)
A was it a point or not that didn't go to Hawkeye, both in the first half. No idea whether it was or not.
I felt the ref was told that he f***ed up and had to redress in the second half. When Donnellan was barged in the back and Joe picked the ball up for the free he conceded a free for picking off the ground.
The way KK played in the second half they needed no help at all.
The were playing 3 sweepers for 10 minutes and that wasn't through choice, just that the Galway front 6 disappeared.
The most amazing stat was that KK didn't score for an 18 minute period in the first half. Galway were not able to maintain that ferocity and when young Whelan got his chance Eoin Murphy could have thrown his hat on it, but instead watched it trickle wide.
Every KK player of the bench was as good as the one that went off. Galway had nothing bar the might David Collins to improve matters, and the Galway subs fired over 4 wides from ridiculous angles whereas KK were happy to knock the ball back 20 metres to a better placed player who knocked it over.

Ref was 100% right to overturn the 65 it clearly hit of Mannions hurl
Also Donnelan tripped himself if you watch it back, ref was correct in that instance
I thought ref lost the run of himself with the cards in the second half

donnem33

droppingball wrote: »

Ref was 100% right to overturn the 65 it clearly hit of Mannions hurl
Also Donnelan tripped himself if you watch it back, ref was correct in that instance
I thought ref lost the run of himself with the cards in the second half

He did trip himself, but as Duignan in commentary noted, P Walsh chopped his hurl and should have been a free in.

You are right about the cards in the 2nd half

What annoyed me about the ref was the amount of times he incorrectly called for overcarrying. He pulled Eoin Larking in the first half, cyril donnellan in the first half and Cathal Mannion in the second half - all three had played the ball on the stick but the ref didnt spot it on all 3 occasions!

jacool

droppingball wrote: »

Ref was 100% right to overturn the 65 it clearly hit of Mannions hurl
Also Donnelan tripped himself if you watch it back, ref was correct in that instance
I thought ref lost the run of himself with the cards in the second half

I haven't re-watched it (you can guess why) so I'll take your word for it.

As we say, every year - there's always next year, and we have loads of minors coming through, and we've club championships coming out our ears! We need to close down all the festivals and the racing and the pedestrianized mile near Shop Street. Too many distractions for them young lads. We'll see where Evan Niland and Sean Loftus and the rest end up, but the KK conveyor belt seems more reliable.

citykat

jacool wrote: »

I felt the ref was told that he f***ed up and had to redress in the second half.

The most amazing stat was

Who'd give an instruction like that? Some faceless deep throat in a darkened corner of the underground car park? The fact is that Galway were awarded 14 frees to Kilkenny's 8. If the ref was soft on Kilkenny, I'd hate to see the free count from an unbiased one.

danganabu

unrealtime wrote: »

Kilkenny fans are great - just like Millwall fans. They all hate us but we don't care.

As for those 31-counties whingers about the ref, facts are that Galway got almost twice the frees KK did and half of Galway's scores came from frees while less than a quarter of KKs did. Without the refs help, Galway could have stayed at home.

I would imagine most genuine KK fans, of which there are plenty on here are more embarrassed by your ramblings than any complaints from other fans, you seem to enjoy playing the victim card?? I'd hate to see what you would have come out with if KK were beaten.

unrealtime wrote: »

video warning - the Cork number nine who was near the goal line when the ball hits the net seems to have been edited out of the picture. It's irrelevant to the matter at issue but he was way ahead of Tommy on the run in.

See now you just went from the bitter, chip on the shoulder guy to the looney bin wraped in tinfoil and rocky away in the corner:D

dastardly00

danganabu wrote: »

I would imagine most genuine KK fans, of which there are plenty on here are more embarrassed by your ramblings than any complaints from other fans, you seem to enjoy playing the victim card?? I'd hate to see what you would have come out with if KK were beaten.

See now you just went from the bitter, chip on the shoulder guy to the looney bin wraped in tinfoil and rocky away in the corner:D

+1,000,000

dirkmeister

Just to clarify canning and mick fennelly running into each other was purely accidental, I was looking straight at the "incident".

Just because joe fell with his arms flying as if he'd been shot doesn't make it sinister.

blackcard

danganabu wrote: »

I would imagine most genuine KK fans, of which there are plenty on here are more embarrassed by your ramblings than any complaints from other fans, you seem to enjoy playing the victim card?? I'd hate to see what you would have come out with if KK were beaten.



See now you just went from the bitter, chip on the shoulder guy to the looney bin wraped in tinfoil and rocky away in the corner:D

As a KK fan, I would advise you to ignore his diatribes, I am as biased as any supporter but he just spouts rubbish

Fort Stranger

blackcard wrote: »

As a KK fan, I would advise you to ignore his diatribes, I am as biased as any supporter but he just spouts rubbish

So what happened bigjoe

Morris Moss

Some lads on here would want to cop on, actually talking about the ref as if we lost the match, it sickening to listen to especially when we f**king won!!!! It's no wonder our fans are getting a bad reputation as whingers and moaners.

unrealtime

another thing on Sunday worthy of note was that we got seven players selected on the team of the year, and for two of these - Joey and Ger - it was effectively their first year playing championship hurling. Ger of course had a few bites earlier but too limited to be of note.

This augurs well for the future. It's an absolute joy to be alive at this time to experience and revel in the tremendous success of the greatest bunch of players ever to play the game. Long may it continue.

donnem33

do ye think the likes of jackie tyrell, michael fennelly, eoin larkin and richie power will stick around to attempt the 3 in a row?

Realt Dearg Sec

donnem33 wrote: »

do ye think the likes of jackie tyrell, michael fennelly, eoin larkin and richie power will stick around to attempt the 3 in a row?

Jackie sounds like he's having his doubts. Which is in sharp contrast to his attitude last year, when he was raring to go. Hard to know with Richie and his injuries. If I was to guess, I'd say Tyrell and Power will go and Larkin will stick around. Be nice if they all stayed of course...

Royal Legend

donnem33 wrote: »

He did trip himself, but as Duignan in commentary noted, P Walsh chopped his hurl and should have been a free in.

You are right about the cards in the 2nd half

What annoyed me about the ref was the amount of times he incorrectly called for overcarrying. He pulled Eoin Larking in the first half, cyril donnellan in the first half and Cathal Mannion in the second half - all three had played the ball on the stick but the ref didnt spot it on all 3 occasions!

He also pulled two Kilkenny players for the same, even though their opponent was holding the hand or arm they had the sliotar in, so they could not release, something Brian Gavin is very good at spotting, obviously Owens is not.
Thought also he did not help the game with the amount of stoppages, although maybe the brandishing of cards kept the game under control as it was extremely physical.

citykat

Richie on second captains live now

unrealtime

the referee had quite a good game and has certainly put himself in the frame for further finals. While he made some mistakes, he showed no bias towards either of the teams and generally gave fair play - the prime requirement for a referee.

The unwarranted criticism of him by the losers in the immediate aftermath just smacked of sour grapes.

brookville

I get the impression jackie is going to go,rice will probably go, I'd be hopeful mick fennely and richie will stay altho ya couldn't blame them if they called it a day cursed with injury the last few years I'd also be hopeful larkin stays but also get the impression he'll probably call it a day,

citykat

brookville wrote: »

I get the impression jackie is going to go,rice will probably go, I'd be hopeful mick fennely and richie will stay altho ya couldn't blame them if they called it a day cursed with injury the last few years I'd also be hopeful larkin stays but also get the impression he'll probably call it a day,

I wouldn't be so pessimistic about Mick. For a lad with such a bad back he still manages to see out games. In the AI, he got the second last score. In the last two games, it was his direct opponent who couldn't last the pace and was taken off. It also wouldn't surprise me if played all of Shamrocks remaining club matches this season.

thinlizzy51

cant see Jackie going.like henry he wont want to go after missing through injury.even though he didn't play how valyable was he in the dressingroom.same with richie.think they will want to finish on the pitch. as for cunningham talking about the ref, after coen incident with colin I thought the ref would have been the last thing he would want to mention.

brookville

If ballyhale win the county final it will be micks turn to captain the county again

donnem33

brookville wrote: »

If ballyhale win the county final it will be micks turn to captain the county again

Would that not be bad for kk in that Holden, 2 fennellys and Reid will not have had a break from hurling in nearly over 18 months between club and county? Hard to keep that up id imagine!

blackcard

brookville wrote: »

If ballyhale win the county final it will be micks turn to captain the county again

I would think TJ might be captain as KK lost while he was captain

citykat

donnem33 wrote: »

Would that not be bad for kk in that Holden, 2 fennellys and Reid will not have had a break from hurling in nearly over 18 months between club and county? Hard to keep that up id imagine!

There'll be very few people outside of Ballyhale cheering them on this year. Bar Loughlins & Clara, I don't see anyone else putting it up to them.

citykat

blackcard wrote: »

I would think TJ might be captain as KK lost while he was captain

It's Richie's turn surely.

brookville

Obviously be good for the shamrocks lads to get a rest but they will be hard bet again, clara the only team i feel can challenge them but still are a bit behind them.be great as to see richie power captain and himself and rice will be a big help but I think they missed the boat two years ago. I'm looking forward to the club and hopefully a few lads put there hand up for early next year

brookville

Obviously be good for the shamrocks lads to get a rest but they will be hard bet again, clara the only team i feel can challenge them but still are a bit behind them.be great as to see richie power captain and himself and rice will be a big help but I think they missed the boat two years ago. I'm looking forward to the club and hopefully a few lads put there hand up for early next year

brookville

Obviously be good for the shamrocks lads to get a rest but they will be hard bet again, clara the only team i feel can challenge them but still are a bit behind them.be great as to see richie power captain and himself and rice will be a big help but I think they missed the boat two years ago. I'm looking forward to the club and hopefully a few lads put there hand up for early next year

WallyGUFC

unrealtime wrote: »

the referee had quite a good game and has certainly put himself in the frame for further finals. While he made some mistakes, he showed no bias towards either of the teams and generally gave fair play - the prime requirement for a referee.

The unwarranted criticism of him by the losers in the immediate aftermath just smacked of sour grapes.

I've seen more moaning about the ref from Kilkenny fans in fairness. It was blatantly obvious Coen should have gotten the line, everyone around me was relieved he didn't. We had the balance of decisions in the first half, KK had the balance in the second half but overall no decision was game changing - KK's second half power surge would have floored every team in the country.