Kilkenny GAA Discussion Thread Mod Warning Post # 5885 #4894 & #5202

deadybai

Anybody have a recommendation on the best place to go in semple stadium? I havnt been there in years

pmy.murphy

Look all things aside, theres no changing what happened yesterday, Its done now. At first the management were at fault but when something like that happens people tend to have a need to blame it on something, (myself included I was very much fault for doing that yesterday) until you hear the actual facts but when I heard yesterday that the panel only had two training sessions together which is 100% true by the way thats certainly put a different spin on things. Yes they were outplayed all over the field too but when a team does not have that togetherness as a unit then what can you do and also the lack of training in terms of fitness is a huge factor. Obviously Dublin were the much fitter, sharper team yesterday they had longer together Obviously looking at it now, its not exactly the managements fault that they only had 2 training sessions together nor is it their fault that the 2 KK Schools were in the colleges final. Its onwards and upwards now and Id imagine they will be much better against Carlow and if they get a crack at Dublin again Im sure there wont be much in it maybe even beat them this time.....But yes I do think other counties have surpassed us in terms of underage structure and I think something needs to be done about it. In terms of the weights programme for 16/17 yr olds, I think its a good idea. I think as a county were coming to the end of the stage where we can afford to wait for players to develop into their early to mid twenties. Look at Clare as an example, their a young team most in their early twenties, Tony Kelly is just 20 and their up there with the best with further room to improve.

68deville

Lads in fairness Leinster is highly competitive now and KK waltzing tru ta
Easy Leinster walkovers is long gone, KK had nobody to beat for last number
Of years and now take great offence if the mandatory underage titles don't
Emerge,dub,Laois,Wexford are there now ta try and take honours at dis grade
And long may it last

BQQ

pmy.murphy wrote: »

In terms of the weights programme for 16/17 yr olds, I think its a good idea. I think as a county were coming to the end of the stage where we can afford to wait for players to develop into their early to mid twenties. Look at Clare as an example, their a young team most in their early twenties, Tony Kelly is just 20 and their up there with the best with further room to improve.

Jeez! They win one All-Ireland through the back door and now we need to be copying them ?
I think if you look beyond last year's c'ship, you'll find that the KK way is working just fine.

Twiceasnice97

Grats wrote: »

I have posted already that the squads development structure needs looking at. Many counties have copied us and moved ahead in the conditioning stakes. Do we want our skilful players to bulk up at such a young age and possibly affect their health in a few years? We may have to choose between losing out at minor level to some degree and developing the players from around 21 or go all out with conditioning at 16/17. I know if it were my son I would be very cautious of the latter.

this shows a deep misunderstanding of what strength and conditioning is about.
I know that in clare the current under 21 management selected the best hurlers they could find and then worked to bring them to the peak strength, flexibility and speed that they could develop.
surely you are not going to accuse podge collins of being `bulked up` as you put it.

lads have been dropped from clare underage squads for not following gym programs. They took the opportunity afforded to them to create a physique which was great for the queens on a saturday night but no good for the type of mobility and athleticism required for hurling.
Gym work is only a risk if it is not part of a full program

Southern Belle

Twiceasnice97 wrote: »

this shows a deep misunderstanding of what strength and conditioning is about.
I know that in clare the current under 21 management selected the best hurlers they could find and then worked to bring them to the peak strength, flexibility and speed that they could develop.
surely you are not going to accuse podge collins of being `bulked up` as you put it.

lads have been dropped from clare underage squads for not following gym programs. They took the opportunity afforded to them to create a physique which was great for the queens on a saturday night but no good for the type of mobility and athleticism required for hurling.
Gym work is only a risk if it is not part of a full program

Quote of the weekend!

robopaddy

BQQ wrote: »

Jeez! They win one All-Ireland through the back door and now we need to be copying them ?
I think if you look beyond last year's c'ship, you'll find that the KK way is working just fine.

He actually mightened be as wide of the mark as your making him out to be there. You could be surprised how quick things could slip if you take the eye off the ball. Bring realistic about it a good lot of this kk team will be gone in 2 or 3 years even earlier and ask yourself are the minor teams coming through over the past 3 or 4 years of the same quality to replace the lads moving on?
I know kk is a strong traditional county and its because of how high kk have set the bar in recent times that counties like clare and dublin have upped there game and maybe even surpassed it. But theres no shame in looking at other counties and how theyre doing things either....
I reckon over the next 7 or 8 years the championship is going to be fiercely competitive with 7 or 8 teams that could realistically win it as opposed to just one or 2 a couple of years ago. So you need to be a bit cuter about it and keep one eye on what other counties are doing aswell, instead of this attitude 'shur were a traditional county we'll be grand'

Grats

Twiceasnice97 wrote: »

this shows a deep misunderstanding of what strength and conditioning is about.
I know that in clare the current under 21 management selected the best hurlers they could find and then worked to bring them to the peak strength, flexibility and speed that they could develop.
surely you are not going to accuse podge collins of being `bulked up` as you put it.

lads have been dropped from clare underage squads for not following gym programs. They took the opportunity afforded to them to create a physique which was great for the queens on a saturday night but no good for the type of mobility and athleticism required for hurling.
Gym work is only a risk if it is not part of a full program

Success begins at underage. Clare implemented proper underage structures some years ago, similar to those in KK. I have complimented your under 21 management team before for developing a brilliant team at under 21. Their hard work was the main reason for the senior success last year but I'm not sure they get the credit they deserve.

It may come a surprise to you but most counties, if not all, have been using strength and conditioning programs for years. Kilkenny wouldn't have survived against all that was thrown at the players physically without such methods. And we know it doesn't necessarily lead to players bulking up to such an extent that they become helpless. I would never "accuse" any player! But I do know that gym work can have negative results on SOME players even the most mature ones.

Anyway back to my original consideration, players at 16/17, NOT under 21s who I said and expect would be in the gym. The Dublin players at minor level are clearly doing a lot of gym work, the evidence is there. Together with their on going development of hurling skill they have earned much success in Leinster. An All Ireland title has eluded them thus far at minor and under 21. I would be slow to try to match them at minor and would prefer, as I said previously, to develop the players physically when their bodies are more mature. It has worked for KILKENNY, I'm not suggesting that it will continue to pay off but until Dublin make the breakthrough by winning National titles and Clare put titles back to back I wouldn't be panicking.

I'm open to change, have suggested it in previous posts, and just like other counties copied our structures, we too should observe theirs and take what's best from them.

nice_guy80

A lot of strength and conditioning stuff with younger age groups is basically making sure they are balanced - ie both sides of body are developing and that they move properly - hips, ankles, knees, shoulders.

Most of that involves bodyweight movements, corrective bodyweight exercises and mobility work.

any county not doing lots of that stuff is kinda neglecting their players imho.

citykat

As far as I know, the minors have lost ONE match. To judge from some comments this is a crisis. I think this is an opportunity. From this the only way is up. The management now have a metaphorical stick to beat the players with. They're being called the worst minor team in memory; outscored by the footballers for a stretch etc. I'd be very surprised if there isn't a vigorous response next day.

Re: strength and conditioning, in my day all the big strong lads were not able to play and so we're dispatched to the club out in Foulkstown. Flexibility and mobility are far more important in minor hurling. The minors were not bulldozed last Saturday, they were simply outplayed. If it was up to me, that's what I would be concentrating on for the next day.

pmy.murphy

robopaddy wrote: »

He actually mightened be as wide of the mark as your making him out to be there. You could be surprised how quick things could slip if you take the eye off the ball. Bring realistic about it a good lot of this kk team will be gone in 2 or 3 years even earlier and ask yourself are the minor teams coming through over the past 3 or 4 years of the same quality to replace the lads moving on?
I know kk is a strong traditional county and its because of how high kk have set the bar in recent times that counties like clare and dublin have upped there game and maybe even surpassed it. But theres no shame in looking at other counties and how theyre doing things either....
I reckon over the next 7 or 8 years the championship is going to be fiercely competitive with 7 or 8 teams that could realistically win it as opposed to just one or 2 a couple of years ago. So you need to be a bit cuter about it and keep one eye on what other counties are doing aswell, instead of this attitude 'shur were a traditional county we'll be grand'

Exactly the point I was trying to make, gone is the day where we can afford to wait and let players develop into their mid twenties because a large number of this current will be gone in the next 5 or 6 years so where do we go from there, our last few underage teams have been below par and the last very good team we had was the 2012 u21 team some of them still underage last year and we are currently bringing on the last of those lads now. We have not one player of our current u21 team on the senior panel at the moment which is strange. Ok Kevin Kelly should probably be in there as he is obviously very talented and Im sure he'll be in there next year but other for him I dont see anyone else of note. If we were to keep going with that other fellas cross that bridge when we come to it attitude we will only end up like Cork did at the end of the last decade when they kept their great players on for far too long because they had nothing coming through. 06 was their last All Ireland, took them 7 years to reach another one because they failed to look to the future. Do we really want that happening to us. Clare are a fine example, yes theyve only won one All Ireland but when was the last time a team with an average age so young won the All Ireland and dont forget these lads are not finished article either. We cant afford to take our eye off the ball because we will lose many years before we can get back on track again

mercury16

Cody has commented recent enough about the lack of good players coming through from the underage sides...so there is an issue with underage in KK.

To compete at minor level now, talent alone won't get you there as other counties are using weights to gain an advantage for years, which does count for a lot at underage. An example would be the Dublin team of two/three seasons ago saw them up close and it was glaringly obvious how much they were physically bigger than the KK lads and it wasn't down to genetics.

This is a decent KK minor team, but no matter what anyone else says, that performance last Saturday is pitiful and all involved should be let know it. I will give Dublin credit and say that they’ve been there, or there about with a few years...saw them beat a KK minor side on another rainy day In Portlaoise a few years back. Dublin were physically bigger then also, so it’s not something new, but even hurling wise our lads were shocking that day also.

Clare have copied the KK minor set-up and then gone and bettered what we had. KK won the all-ireland in 2008, lost the final in 2009 and won the final in 2010 and no U-21 title from all that. Lost a minor semi last year to Waterford which we played as good as Waterford on the day, but lost. Five or six of them are back this year coupled with seven of them colleges final players and then more county wide players who are supposed to be better again, and 0-3 is all we get from them.

Irrespective of effort put in and blah, de blah, etc..this is the KK minor side and there are expectations that come with wearing that jersey and being nominated to coach that team, and 0-3 for a game does not meet that expectation.

Grats

Every poster is very conscious of the recent form of our minors. By the way, do remember thar we lost out, narrowly, to the champions last year at minor! We all acknowledged that something needs to be done. Nobody is suggesting that we stay as we are. The question is what needs changing and will it be right for young players.

While we're getting our house in order it will be very interesting to see how long this new breed of hurlers, such as Clare, last at the top. There are already concerns being expressed in Clare regarding the many injuries their players are picking up.

savannahkat

Fair play to you Mercury well said. To add to yours when we are told that we had only two training sessions because six to eight of the players were college tied is ridiculous. As fair as I can see only six of the college tied players were on the starting fifteen so why in the name of all that is reasonable could the remainder of the panel not have been in training. Surely we have an extended panel of 30 plus to pick from.Why was everything stopped because of the colleges.

pat 22

Seeing as ur from the city. Can u throw any light on what's going on in the city clubs at under age? If im correct there's only one player from the boro on panel? The city clubs seem to be falling away last few yrs at under age. And I believe that's where a lot of our problems are coming from.

Grats

Like Savannahcat I agree with mercury also. Regarding just two training sessions though, I find that hard to believe. Where exactly did that story originate. Did the minor team not have a few challenge games?

pmy.murphy

savannahkat wrote: »

Fair play to you Mercury well said. To add to yours when we are told that we had only two training sessions because six to eight of the players were college tied is ridiculous. As fair as I can see only six of the college tied players were on the starting fifteen so why in the name of all that is reasonable could the remainder of the panel not have been in training. Surely we have an extended panel of 30 plus to pick from.Why was everything stopped because of the colleges.

Very good point you have made there, Iactually went back and looked at the team again, 9 of the Starting XV were non Kierans and CBS. Leaves me scratching my head too as to why everything was put on the backburner while the Schools teams were still playing

pmy.murphy

Grats wrote: »

Like Savannahcat I agree with mercury also. Regarding just two training sessions though, I find that hard to believe. Where exactly did that story originate. Did the minor team not have a few challenge games?

2 Training Sessions before the match is true 100%, I heard that from the horses mouth. If you asking my sources I can tell you 2 people one is a player who was starting the other day and another is a player who was involved in the panel last year

savannahkat

It came from an interview with Pat Hoban both in the K/People and in the Hoganstand mag.

pmy.murphy

savannahkat wrote: »

It came from an interview with Pat Hoban both in the K/People and in the Hoganstand mag.

HE didnt specifically say two training sessions though, I read that a couple of days ago, he just said they werent together very long due to schools and then club games

mullinr2

Least we not forget there is a big match on this weekend. I have a feeling that this new look kk team will be given a rude awakening from tipp. They owe us a beating and I have a feeling itll be a bad one. Couple this wi our minor debacle, it will mount to a crisis within the county. I surely hope not but I have a feeling that we need a good kick in the ass. We have become so complacent at every level

dobbs2210

Grats wrote: »

Like Savannahcat I agree with mercury also. Regarding just two training sessions though, I find that hard to believe. Where exactly did that story originate. Did the minor team not have a few challenge games?

2 training sessions is a LOAD OF BULL CRAP. They had plenty of training and challenge games played. Limerick absolutely hammered them a while back.

Grats

dobbs2210 wrote: »

2 training sessions is a LOAD OF BULL CRAP. They had plenty of training and challenge games played. Limerick absolutely hammered them a while back.

I'm inclined to agree with you. There may have been just two training sessions with the colleges contingent back on board but the rest of the panel are training for months. Perhaps bringing in so many of the colleges lads destabilised the team for the Dublin game. No excuses, regarding lack of training sessions, from here out.

Grats

mullinr2 wrote: »

Least we not forget there is a big match on this weekend. I have a feeling that this new look kk team will be given a rude awakening from tipp. They owe us a beating and I have a feeling itll be a bad one. Couple this wi our minor debacle, it will mount to a crisis within the county. I surely hope not but I have a feeling that we need a good kick in the ass. We have become so complacent at every level

Yeah, Cody does complacency!

pmy.murphy

Grats wrote: »

I'm inclined to agree with you. There may have been just two training sessions with the colleges contingent back on board but the rest of the panel are training for months. Perhaps bringing in so many of the colleges lads destabilised the team for the Dublin game. No excuses, regarding lack of training sessions, from here out.

Being realistic yes of course they would have been training but in terms of having the whole squad together they only had two sessions before the Dublin game and Pat Hoban did say that this was the first time they were together in over a month so it seems they stopped whilst the colleges got to the business end of the competition

Grats

pmy.murphy wrote: »

Being realistic yes of course they would have been training but in terms of having the whole squad together they only had two sessions before the Dublin game and Pat Hoban did say that this was the first time they were together in over a month so it seems they stopped whilst the colleges got to the business end of the competition

Fair enough. It's a kinda relief really. I will expect fireworks in future.

robopaddy

dobbs2210 wrote: »

2 training sessions is a LOAD OF BULL CRAP. They had plenty of training and challenge games played. Limerick absolutely hammered them a while back.

Limerick will take stopping to be fair. They gave tipp a fair trimming in munster and had 2 colleges involved in th Croke cup aswell

Kkid

@Pat22 I’m not sure about the City teams falling away, the last 4 in the U-16 last year three city teams and the same at minor level I think.

I don’t understand the lack of city players on the team, 2 on the 26 from Saturday. There are some fine hurlers on that panel who are from the city but are not involved, but Pat knows more than I do so we will see.

citykat

mullinr2 wrote: »

Least we not forget there is a big match on this weekend. I have a feeling that this new look kk team will be given a rude awakening from tipp. They owe us a beating and I have a feeling itll be a bad one. Couple this wi our minor debacle, it will mount to a crisis within the county. I surely hope not but I have a feeling that we need a good kick in the ass. We have become so complacent at every level

From a statistical point of view, we can't keep beating Tipp. They're going to put one on us soon. I though don't think it's going to happen this weekend. Kennedy, Walsh & Buckley were impressive last time. These performances have put the established guys on notice. Nobody is guaranteed their position. Guys are not only playing to win but also to stay on the team. I expect Cody to put out a strong team incl. the trio above. He has always strived to win the league so I don't expect that to change at this stage.

Tipp had a good win against Clare but were lucky to even be there after the dubs miscalculated in the previous round. Their league form was patchy. O'Shea was under pressure from within the county as a result. Tipp have come on since then but I wouldn't fear them. They have their own sprinkling of newbies. Callanan appears to be the main man up front. Bar the league game this year, he has seriously underachieved against Kilkenny in the past. I don't think there'll be anything like the goalfest we had previously. Both defences have tightened up since. I expect Kilkenny to win but by a slim margin.

Grats

citykat wrote: »

From a statistical point of view, we can't keep beating Tipp. They're going to put one on us soon. I though don't think it's going to happen this weekend. Kennedy, Walsh & Buckley were impressive last time. These performances have put the established guys on notice. Nobody is guaranteed their position. Guys are not only playing to win but also to stay on the team. I expect Cody to put out a strong team incl. the trio above. He has always strived to win the league so I don't expect that to change at this stage.

Tipp had a good win against Clare but were lucky to even be there after the dubs miscalculated in the previous round. Their league form was patchy. O'Shea was under pressure from within the county as a result. Tipp have come on since then but I wouldn't fear them. They have their own sprinkling of newbies. Callanan appears to be the main man up front. Bar the league game this year, he has seriously underachieved against Kilkenny in the past. I don't think there'll be anything like the goalfest we had previously. Both defences have tightened up since. I expect Kilkenny to win but by a slim margin.

While I agree with most of the above I feel Tipp will edge this one. They will have received a huge boost in beating Clare, their confidence and hunger will be sky high. Cody's game plan for this isn't fully fine tuned yet and so the team just might be a bit tentative for now. Losing the League won't upset Cody's plans for the Championship. Tipp need to beat us if they are to make an impact in the summer. I think they will win and will go on to win Munster.

droppingball

Its a hard game to call and i expect to see one or two curveballs in Codys team selection. He may vary in up a little. I agree that our game isn't fully fine tuned yet. I won't be too disappointed if we lose this game as long as we gain something from it, whether it be good performances from young guys again, getting a midfield partnership nailed down and get more game time into Brian Hogan and Fennelly.

A titanic battle with Tipp is a regular thing at this stage, another physical battle is one thing but hopefully we will continue to run off the shoulder and develop our own game. Should be interesting but I would be happier if we were getting a crack at Clare.

premierstone

deadybai wrote: »

Anybody have a recommendation on the best place to go in semple stadium? I havnt been there in years

The old stand (Ardán Ó Coinneáin) has by far a better view than the new stand.

deadybai

I dont agree with saying that Tipp will win because they haven't beat us in a while. Whoever is the better team on the day wins and in the case of this fixture Kilkenny have been the better team on the day for a good while now. Kilkenny have been marginally the best team of the league this year. Even though Tipp have come on strong i still don't think they will beat us. I'm confident for a Kilkenny win but if Tipp were to win it is because they were the better team on the day not because we owe them a victory. Its going to be a close game but i expect us to pull away near the end. Kilkenny by 6 for me.

Fort Stranger

I expect us to win this well, lads are champing at the bit to tie down a place, as for Clare, very over-rated and got lucky last year when Tipp and Kilkenny fell away, mark my words Kilkenny, Tipp and Dublin will share the next five All Ireland's. Cork won't see an All Ireland for a long time either!

MajaDon

"There's no secret to what the minors are doing, since about 2007 the training has been based on skill development and physical development. There is no bulking up, it all either body weight or very light weights such as 5kg or 10kg max, at under 13 to under 16 its geared towards injury prevention and body function and mobility. Skill development does not lose out, group and individual programs are given out, everyone does the group and hopefully most if not all do the individual.
S and C at this age is not about heavy weights, muscles bursting out of the jersey. High skill levels,Flexibility, mobility and strength. Gives the players a great foundation for senior hurling.2

"Certainly up to U16 the only S&C involves your own body weight and core exercices. Players are also advised about Rest & Recovery, what they need to be eating prior & post training. There is a big onus on the player to do stuff unsupervised on an individual basis. Collective training is practically all skills related with the emphasis on intensity. As stated previously the traditionalists find it hard to accept that young Dubs can out hurl them. Sure look at our Feile successes, that can hardly be down to S&C."

These are responses to questions on Resevoir Dubs about the so-called "strength and conditioning" being done at under age in Dublin. Its no big secret and basically common sense.

Grats

Well nobody can take from the improvement in Dublin hurling in the last 10years, and very few are. From observations it would appear that the young Dublin players are far "stronger" physically than other counties. From reading the above you can now see why. And certainly by the time they reach even minor their physique generally is obviously greater than that of their opponents. It levels off from around 20 when the rest catch up.

Nobody is saying there is anything wrong about what Dublin do, we're simply asking if we in KK should copy them. At least the above post clarifies the matter.

TheNap

Dublin dont have the strength in depth to compete year after year .

We have been in 2 AI finals at minor and one at U21 in the last 4 years and i think there is only 2 players that have made the breakthrough from them teams .

Hitchens

"Former Waterford hurler Ken McGrath is recovering in hospital following open heart surgery."

Best wishes to Ken, he's been in hospital for some time.

premierstone

TheNap wrote: »

Dublin dont have the strength in depth to compete year after year .

We have been in 2 AI finals at minor and one at U21 in the last 4 years and i think there is only 2 players that have made the breakthrough from them teams .

Plenty of strenght in depth in Dublin hurling and anyone thinking they will just dissaprear is very much mistaken.

Also from that 2012 U21 team 5 are in contention for a starting place for KK this year and both Doyle and Aylward would be only for injury, I expect Kelly to be part of the senior in the near future aswell so claiming only 2 from that team has made the breakthrough is a little disingenious.

TheNap

premierstone wrote: »

Plenty of strenght in depth in Dublin hurling and anyone thinking they will just dissaprear is very much mistaken.

Also from that 2012 U21 team 5 are in contention for a starting place for KK this year and both Doyle and Aylward would be only for injury, I expect Kelly to be part of the senior in the near future aswell so claiming only 2 from that team has made the breakthrough is a little disingenious.

I meant we as in Dublin .

Grats

TheNap wrote: »

I meant we as in Dublin .

Thought so, previous post replying to you confused me!

premierstone

lol blonde moment from me!

1984baby

Kilkenny to win on Sunday by 6 points.
I think we are very strong this year, with the best squad we've had in years.

JayIre

1984baby wrote: »

Kilkenny to win on Sunday by 6 points.
I think we are very strong this year, with the best squad we've had in years.

I agree about the best squad in years, will be interesting to see what team lines out Sunday.

dastardly00

Just realised I can't go to the league final on Sunday, d'oh!
(I'll be taking part in the Cycle Against Suicide, so that's a good enough reason for not going to it anyway).

robopaddy

dastardly00 wrote: »

Just realised I can't go to the league final on Sunday, d'oh!
(I'll be taking part in the Cycle Against Suicide, so that's a good enough reason for not going to it anyway).

Best of luck lad

Kkid

Good Luck Dastardly00 great cause

Grats

dastardly00 wrote: »

Just realised I can't go to the league final on Sunday, d'oh!
(I'll be taking part in the Cycle Against Suicide, so that's a good enough reason for not going to it anyway).

Yes indeed. Enjoy the trip and good luck.

Realt Dearg Sec

dastardly00 wrote: »

Just realised I can't go to the league final on Sunday, d'oh!
(I'll be taking part in the Cycle Against Suicide, so that's a good enough reason for not going to it anyway).

Just get someone to drive beside you with the window down and the radio commentary blaring. If they care, they'll help a brother out.

MajaDon

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Just get someone to drive beside you with the window down and the radio commentary blaring. If they care, they'll help a brother out.

Would that be a hands free radio?