Federal Ireland

CelticDragon7

Firstly I would like to obviously acknowledge that a United Ireland of any kind is most definitely a long way in the future or even perhaps as some would argue, likely never going to happen at all. But that being said I would like to know or gain an insight into what the views would be on a Federal Ireland.

This vision of a Federal Ireland would be slightly different to those proposed in the past in that it would consist of four '8' County Provincial governments each with maximum devolved powers. The boundaries of these federal provinces are shown in the map attached.

There would be an overall President of Ireland and an overall elected 'Senate' based in Dublin which would also remain the capital city of Ireland (No Capital at Athlone in this version.) But there would be no national Dail Eireann and aside from the Senate and the President over seeing the 'few' things that would need to be dealt at national level, most powers would be devolved to and decisions made, in the four devolved parliaments that would each be based in Belfast, Cork, Galway and of course Dublin.

Also to avoid unneeded bureaucracy and to reduce the cost and also to reduce the overall number of politicians, local and county councils would be abolished and all matters in each province would be dealt with by each province parliament.

The populations of such said provinces would be as followed;

The population of the province of the North or basically the new version of Ulster would be 2,032,483.

Northern Ireland (Tyrone, Armagh, Derry, Down, Fermanagh and Antrim)
- 1,810,863
Donegal - 161,137
Monaghan - 60,483


The population of the province of the East or basically the new version of Leinster would be 2,167,997.

Louth - 122,897
Meath - 184,135
Westmeath - 86,164
Kildare - 210,312
Wicklow - 136,640
Laois - 80,559
Offaly - 76,687
Dublin - 1,270,603

The population of the province of the South or basically the new version of Munster would be 1,424,243.

Cork - 519,032
Kerry - 145,502
Tipperary - 158,754
Kilkenny - 95,419
Waterford - 113,795
Wexford - 145,320
Carlow - 54,612
Limerick - 191,809

The population of the province of the West or basically the new version of Connacht would be 771,812.

Galway - 250,541
Cavan - 73,183
Longford - 39,000
Clare - 117,196
Mayo - 130,638
Roscommon - 64,065
Leitrim - 31,796
Sligo - 65,393

So like any version of democracy this vision of a future Federal Ireland would not be without its flaws but to answer that, all I would say is that what we have now is far from perfect and although these changes would be radical, what we can agree on I am sure, is that change of some kind is most definitely needed.

Although I am not here to preach or anything else but just to try and find out what all your views are on the idea and whether you would support such a plan or strongly be against it. All response, debate and conversation is welcome!! Thanks!!

Iwasfrozen

I wouldn't like to see a federal Ireland. We're too small a country. Most American states have a larger population then this island. Cheaper and more efficient to just rule everyone from Dublin.

P_1

It would be a useful way of replacing county councils and the associated waste they create.

Having said that you'll just replace the 'those fools in Dublin' argument with 4 equal 'those fools in Dublin/Cork/Belfast/Galway' ones.

CelticDragon7

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I wouldn't like to see a federal Ireland. We're too small a country. Most American states have a larger population then this island. Cheaper and more efficient to just rule everyone from Dublin.

Well actually only 12 US states have populations that are larger than the population of the island of Ireland as a whole (which currently stands at about 6.4 million.) So out of 50 states that would be an minority. :P

But yes small populations would be an issue especially in Connacht but there are other countries which make the federal system work even with a small population, Switzerland would be an example.

Also the point of this idea would not be to "rule" anyone but to try and create the most representative and the most democratic form of government so decisions are made a lot more closer to home as opposed to being made in Dublin where the full effects of such decisions often are not felt there.

CelticDragon7

P_1 wrote: »

It would be a useful way of replacing county councils and the associated waste they create.

Having said that you'll just replace the 'those fools in Dublin' argument with 4 equal 'those fools in Dublin/Cork/Belfast/Galway' ones.

Well I suppose it would be my dream that there would be no fools elected anywhere!! :P As unrealistic as that dream might be!!

But I do think that with a federal system you could create it in such a way that would drastically reduce the number of politicians and so therefore also reduce the numbers of 'fools' making decisions!!

oscarBravo

Would you envisage federal as well as local income/sales taxes? Because regional government is meaningless unless it has revenue-raising powers, and the national government needs to pay for the defence forces (and the police and judiciary?).

Would you also envisage financial transfers from the wealthier to the poorer regions?

Iwasfrozen

CelticDragon7 wrote: »

Well actually only 12 US states have populations that are larger than the population of the island of Ireland as a whole (which currently stands at about 6.4 million.) So out of 50 states that would be an minority. :P

lol, fair enough that's me told. :P

CelticDragon7 wrote: »

But yes small populations would be an issue especially in Connacht but there are other countries which make the federal system work even with a small population, Switzerland would be an example.

Also the point of this idea would not be to "rule" anyone but to try and create the most representative and the most democratic form of government so decisions are made a lot more closer to home as opposed to being made in Dublin where the full effects of such decisions often are not felt there.

Sure there are other countries that make it work but the question wasn't could we make it work it's that it would be cheaper and more efficient to have everyone "represented" in Dublin. Galway, Cork and Belfast will still remain important local centers of industry but it makes the most sense to have a unitary representative parliament in Dublin.

P_1

How would you make it work though?

How much autonomy should the regions have. Can they set taxes for example? Could we have Neo Munster legalising cannabis for example?

nesf

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Cheaper and more efficient to just rule everyone from Dublin.

I've seen it argued (academically) that the stripping of powers from local Government and centralising of power in the Dáil by DeV has resulted in a lot of problems to this day and is partially responsible for the kind of absurd parish pump politics that we have. I can't remember where I read that though.

Iwasfrozen

nesf wrote: »

I've seen it argued (academically) that the stripping of powers from local Government and centralising of power in the Dáil by DeV has resulted in a lot of problems to this day and is partially responsible for the kind of absurd parish pump politics that we have. I can't remember where I read that though.

How would giving more power to local politicians combat parish pump politics?

nesf

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

How would giving more power to local politicians combat parish pump politics?

It'd restrict it to council level rather than have heavy pressure on TDs to handle issues that really should be local Government issues. At the moment the funding for councils is so limited that people have to pressure TDs to arrange for things to happen. If the councils had more power and funding then this pressure would be directed where it should be.

You'd still get parish pump politics no doubt but it'd be reduced.

Iwasfrozen

nesf wrote: »

It'd restrict it to council level rather than have heavy pressure on TDs to handle issues that really should be local Government issues. At the moment the funding for councils is so limited that people have to pressure TDs to arrange for things to happen. If the councils had more power and funding then this pressure would be directed where it should be.

You'd still get parish pump politics no doubt but it'd be reduced.

But OP wants to do away with county councils and handle these issues at a neo provincial level.

nesf

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But OP wants to do away with county councils and handle these issues at a neo provincial level.

I'm not agreeing with the OP, I'm disagreeing with your suggestion that it's better to rule everyone from Dublin.

Iwasfrozen

nesf wrote: »

I'm not agreeing with the OP, I'm disagreeing with your suggestion that it's better to rule everyone from Dublin.

But you suggestion of the status que with more powers to county councils maintains the bicameral parliament in Dublin.

nesf

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But you suggestion of the status que with more powers to county councils maintains the bicameral parliament in Dublin.

Sure, we need a parliament to deal with the many national issues. Ideally I'd like to see the dismantling of the current stranglehold by the Cabinet over all policy but that's a bit of a pipe dream.

heyjude

oscarBravo wrote: »

Would you envisage federal as well as local income/sales taxes? Because regional government is meaningless unless it has revenue-raising powers, and the national government needs to pay for the defence forces (and the police and judiciary?).

Would you also envisage financial transfers from the wealthier to the poorer regions?

But surely having financial transfers from the wealthier to the poorer defeats the purpose of it, as who decides on the level of transfer and what they will be used for. Does the US Federal government transfer Federal funds from richer states like New York or California to poorer ones like Louisiana ?

I saw a table last year that listed per capita what each county contributes to and gets from the exchequer(don't know if it included EU payments but Ireland is a net contributor now in any case).

The table showed that per capita, only Dublin and Kildare were net contributors(ie. paid in more than they got back), while the other 24 counties received back more than they paid in. If that is an accurate picture, then its hard to see how such a Federal Ireland would work as if the financial figures don't add up then nothing else will either. I'm also not sure that voters in the west and north west would support such a Federal system if they realise that in future, all their local services will have to be paid for, by local taxpayers, as compared to the current situation in which they are net beneficiaries.

A Federal Ireland would be good news financially for those living in Dublin, Kildare and the other counties in the same Federal state as them.

Pete_Cavan

I dont think this is a good idea and the competition between these new regional governments would see new Leinster destroy new Connaucht and new Munster, new Ulster would probably be ok due to the economic strength of Belfast.

Look at airports for example, if the new government in Dublin (governing new Leinster only) decided to build an airport in Offaly to compete with the airports in the other regions, it would kill off Shannon, Cork and Knock airports. Offaly International Airport would not need to be profit making as it would be supported by profits from Dublin airport. Its fees could be kept so low as to hoover up all passengers from airports outside of new Leinster, boosting the income of the government in Dublin. Thousands of jobs would be lost in the south and west and these governments would see the destruction of important assets.

Creating a federal system in this country would be like putting the Killeshandra minor team out against the Donegal senior footballs, the Greater Dublin Area is too far advanced economically for it to work. New Leinster could build all the infrastructure it wanted while new Munster and new Connaucht would be left to rot. Look at the infrastructure in place already; Belfast Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford are all linked to Dublin by motorway at present, but none are linked to each other. There would need to be huge transfer payments from Leinster to other regions, as happens already, which sorta defeats the purpose of the federal system.

baalthor

Why is Cavan moved to Connaught ??
Most of the population of Cavan live around an hours drive from Dublin 15

Rightwing

CelticDragon7 wrote: »

Firstly I would like to obviously acknowledge that a United Ireland of any kind is most definitely a long way in the future or even perhaps as some would argue, likely never going to happen at all. But that being said I would like to know or gain an insight into what the views would be on a Federal Ireland.

This vision of a Federal Ireland would be slightly different to those proposed in the past in that it would consist of four '8' County Provincial governments each with maximum devolved powers. The boundaries of these federal provinces are shown in the map attached.

There would be an overall President of Ireland and an overall elected 'Senate' based in Dublin which would also remain the capital city of Ireland (No Capital at Athlone in this version.) But there would be no national Dail Eireann and aside from the Senate and the President over seeing the 'few' things that would need to be dealt at national level, most powers would be devolved to and decisions made, in the four devolved parliaments that would each be based in Belfast, Cork, Galway and of course Dublin.

Also to avoid unneeded bureaucracy and to reduce the cost and also to reduce the overall number of politicians, local and county councils would be abolished and all matters in each province would be dealt with by each province parliament.

The populations of such said provinces would be as followed;

The population of the province of the North or basically the new version of Ulster would be 2,032,483.

Northern Ireland (Tyrone, Armagh, Derry, Down, Fermanagh and Antrim)
- 1,810,863
Donegal - 161,137
Monaghan - 60,483


The population of the province of the East or basically the new version of Leinster would be 2,167,997.

Louth - 122,897
Meath - 184,135
Westmeath - 86,164
Kildare - 210,312
Wicklow - 136,640
Laois - 80,559
Offaly - 76,687
Dublin - 1,270,603

The population of the province of the South or basically the new version of Munster would be 1,424,243.

Cork - 519,032
Kerry - 145,502
Tipperary - 158,754
Kilkenny - 95,419
Waterford - 113,795
Wexford - 145,320
Carlow - 54,612
Limerick - 191,809

The population of the province of the West or basically the new version of Connacht would be 771,812.

Galway - 250,541
Cavan - 73,183
Longford - 39,000
Clare - 117,196
Mayo - 130,638
Roscommon - 64,065
Leitrim - 31,796
Sligo - 65,393

So like any version of democracy this vision of a future Federal Ireland would not be without its flaws but to answer that, all I would say is that what we have now is far from perfect and although these changes would be radical, what we can agree on I am sure, is that change of some kind is most definitely needed.

Although I am not here to preach or anything else but just to try and find out what all your views are on the idea and whether you would support such a plan or strongly be against it. All response, debate and conversation is welcome!! Thanks!!

Would be difficult when you have some suburbs of Limerick in Co Clare, same probably applies elsewhere.

starskey77

looks to me a bit like ancient rome count me in. im sparticus

The Corinthian

CelticDragon7 wrote: »

Although I am not here to preach or anything else but just to try and find out what all your views are on the idea and whether you would support such a plan or strongly be against it. All response, debate and conversation is welcome!! Thanks!!

No problem, so long as the federal constituents have to balance their budgets. Otherwise all you're doing is giving a blank chequebook to local government with all oversight gone as they are autonomous. Serious recipe for disaster.

This is an idea that's been knocking about for years - particularly promoted by the likes of SF. Problem is that it's a great idea where it comes to discussing regional autonomy, but where it comes to fiscal responsibility its proponents tend to go quiet.

CelticDragon7 wrote: »

But yes small populations would be an issue especially in Connacht but there are other countries which make the federal system work even with a small population, Switzerland would be an example.

National population size is not a big issue, I'd agree, but industrial and population density is.

For example, you cite Switzerland as an example of a small federal nation. True, but Switzerland's population and industry is far more diffuse than Ireland's. With a total population of eight million, the largest city, Zurich, has a population of only around 500k and practically every single village in the country will have some major factory or other industry that means that people need not migrate 'to the city' to find work.

Ireland is very different (much more like Greece). Population and industry is concentrated around a small number of urban centres, with Dublin as the largest by far. Smaller towns, as a result, have long suffered an exodus that has seen both population and industry remain stagnant and the cities swell in size. This naturally also translates to wealth, meaning that were we to have for federated states, Lenster would likely be very wealthy and the other four - especially Connacht - much poorer.

Overall, it's a nice idea in principle, but I don't think it's been really very well thought out.

hatrickpatrick

I'd go a lot further and devolve most powers from the Dail (and the EU) directly to the existing local county council constituencies.

oscarBravo

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'd go a lot further and devolve most powers from the Dail (and the EU) directly to the existing local county council constituencies.

Policing? Judiciary? Revenue? Fisheries? Environmental protection? Social welfare? Healthcare?

hatrickpatrick

oscarBravo wrote: »

Policing? Judiciary? Revenue? Fisheries? Environmental protection? Social welfare? Healthcare?

I'm talking more in the sense of actual lawmaking - I would remove most everyday laws people have to follow from the remit of the national government and give them to local councils instead. The closer the ordinary citizen is to lawmaking, the more democratic in my view.

P_1

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm talking more in the sense of actual lawmaking - I would remove most everyday laws people have to follow from the remit of the national government and give them to local councils instead. The closer the ordinary citizen is to lawmaking, the more democratic in my view.

But then you could end up with a case where doing something in Balbriggan is illegal but doing the same thing 15 minutes up the road in Drogheda is perfectly legal.

View

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'd go a lot further and devolve most powers from the Dail (and the EU) directly to the existing local county council constituencies.

The EU has already encouraged the Oireachtas to do some of that in the past. Unfortunately, it isn't particularly interested in the idea.

So, also has the (non-EU) Council of Europe - in fact, Ireland is a signatory to a 1985 CoE treaty on local government in which we solemnly agreed that local government should have "substantial powers" (and associated local financing powers). That also seems to have been ignored by the Oireachtas.

After all, the public aren't voting for (or forming) parties advocating local powers so they can run their own local affairs, so why should the Oireachtas care?

Pete_Cavan

The idea is just not workable in this country. Things like policing and judiciary would be too expensive to be controlled at a regional level, our country is too small and having them implemented at a national level gives an economy of scale and therefore better value for money. Take prisons and reform centres for example, most of our capacity is concentrated in Leinster. If law making and judiciary was devolved to federal government, each region would need their own facilities to enforce their own laws. So the other federal governments immediately need to splash out on new facilities. OK, Leinster would probably take people from other regions, for a price, but only after their own need is met and until they reach their capacity, after that the other regions are on their own. But why should Leinster have to house prisoners who broke the laws in other regions, which somebody else made up?

Infrastructure provision in general would be a mess in federal Ireland. Due to the size of our country, a lot of our infrastructure is of national importance. The only way we got the motorway network built was because it was overseen by the National Roads Authority. The Leinster federal government would have no interest in upgrading the N20 to motorway and the Munster federal government would struggle to find the ~€1bn needed for the project. The result is we are left with a dangerous and substandard road linking our second and third largest cities for ever. The same goes for rail, water, electricity, etc. they all should be controlled at national level.

Giving federal governments here power over taxes in their area would be a disaster as well. It would result in a populist but unsustainable tax regime developing everywhere. Things like the property tax would be gone in the morning and there would probably be a race to the bottom with corpo tax. Cant imagine these federal governments being any good at collecting taxes either. There would need to be transfers from Leinster to other regions but that would probably result in the other regions dropping taxes to get in FDI and using the transfers to balance their books. But how is the amount of transfers determined? If a region reduces its income by lowering taxes in order to attract investment away from other areas, does Leinster increase the transfers in order to make up for the loss of income in the other region?

The federal idea doesnt work at all. instead county councils should be amalgamated to give economies of scale, but imo there is limited scope of giving them extra powers. Of course the unaccountable county manager would need to be replaced by an elected official. One thing which could work is giving regional authorities certain assets in their region. Shannon Development owns numerous assets in the area, regional authorities could be given such assets to promote and develop for the benefit of their region. The OPW owns a lot of heritage buildings and national monuments but does the bare minimum with them. Some of these could be given to the relevant regional authorities who would have an interest in promoting them and local people would have more influence. I am sure there are plenty of government departments who own assets which could be used to the benefit of local people but the department has no interest in doing anything with them, in many cases they probably dont even know they own them.

The Corinthian

A lot of the issues described here are common to all federations, yet they seem to work fine, even where it comes to building cross state motorways or federal law. Remember, federations are not collections of sovereign states; that sovereignty is limited, can be overruled, and other than certain state rights that are protected, the federal government can ultimately overrule them - the US supreme court being a case in point.

Also there are levels of federation; Italy, for example, has a very weak federation, in that each region (with some special cases) has very limited autonomy. Switzerland, on the other hand, has much stronger autonomy for the cantons - you can (or at least could at one stage) be in one town where smoking in bars is illegal, then hop on a train for fifteen minutes to the next canton where you can smoke all you want.

Nonetheless, as a system federation works well for many countries, even if it includes such curiosities that would be alien to anyone from a nation that employs centralized government.

Would it work for Ireland though? Probably not. For a federation to work you realistically need to be able to divide the country into autonomous, self-governing states and Ireland isn't really set up that way.

Connacht is a good example of why. Tiny population, minimal industry and permanently in deficit. Where would the capital even be? Castlebar (de facto capital during the brief Republic of Connacht), Sligo (capital of the Kingdom of Connacht) or Galway?

And financially Connacht is not alone; Ulster (while being in many respects in a better position) is another fiscal sinkhole, with NI presently requiring £5 billion in transfers from the UK alone.

Overall, Ireland would become a federation of non-viable states, with Lenster (i.e. Greater Dublin) effectively bankrolling them all, while they can spend what they like thanks to being autonomous. This model can work if you have a fifth or less of your country in this situation (as you have in the US), but once it goes over that you begin to see resentment from those writing the cheques - how do you think the Italian Lega Nord (Northern League) came about? They got fed up bankrolling the south.

So the idea is nice in principle, but it already falls apart in theory, let alone practice. In reality, it's something that has mainly been promoted by SF in NI, because as much as they want a united Ireland, they don't want to be governed by Dublin any more than they want to be governed by London.

Which is fine, as long as you can afford it. Otherwise, as a Dub, I've little interest in bankrolling them.