National Humiliation

padma

Play To Kill wrote: »

If you follow the thread you will see that I have answered the OP by saying I don't feel humiliated because of a media report about a ceremony to remember murder victims but I do feel embarrassed and outraged that the IRA claimed to murder in mine and every Irish persons name.

The thread isn't about what the police or others murderers who called themselves loyalists did, if it was I would have given my opinion. I have not forgotten that there were others murderers who claimed their actions were in the name of the British crown, they are also evil cnuts who I have no time or respect for and I don't feel humiliated by their actions either. They all, on both sides, murdered men, women and children, they also destroyed thousands of lives fighting over what essentially is six big fields on the northern half of a tiny Island, thankfully they are still only supported by a tiny minority to this day.

That's good dude, because I had the wrong impression. I was led to believe by your posts that you felt it was the IRA who caused and did all the mayhem in The North./

gallag

padma wrote: »

So, 1500 killed by the IRA and 300 by the British army and 1200 by the loyalists and RUC is it? Not to sound bad but that is generally half/half as lets face it the British army was there for the crown. There are commemorations nearly every day for victims on both sides.

As I said earlier people do need to pipe down a bit and remember there were two sides in this conflict, the SAS, UDA, UFF, UVF UDR British Army, Paratroopers and RUC and B Specials. The RUC, B specials, SAS, Paratroopers and the British army could have conducted themselves as trained professionals trained to police and normalise the situation. It was of course unfortunate that they didn't but resorted to collusion with one side.

Then the IRA, PIRA AND INLA.

Is it time to reflect as a people? and remember the innocent catholics and nationalists in Northern Ireland as they have gone through the same atrocities too. Who here can remember Rev. Ian Paisley shouting for the extermination of catholics around bonfires burning the tricolour and pictures of the pope on the 12th of July?

Im not a nationalist, but I do not condemn the actions of one group, I condemn the actions of all the groups there. The state of Northern Ireland from the 20's til the civil rights movement was illegal, sectarian, and discriminatory towards catholics.

The ira killed half the people alone, the real ira, original ira and inla and other Republican groups on top of that, the ira also killed more Catholics than any other group including the uvf, uda etc and the ira killed more Catholics than the British army killed in total.

padma

gallag wrote: »

The ira killed half the people alone, the real ira, original ira and inla and other Republican groups on top of that, the ira also killed more Catholics than any other group including the uvf, uda etc and the ira killed more Catholics than the British army killed in total.

Loyalists civilian killings ~85%
BA civilian killings ~51%
IRA civilian killings ~35%

as posted by chuck stone.

Play To Kill

padma wrote: »

That's good dude, because I had the wrong impression. I was led to believe by your posts that you felt it was the IRA who caused and did all the mayhem in The North./

No thats not what I believe. The IRA for long enough made me feel embarrassed to be Irish, I don't need some young kid like the OP trying to insinuate that as an Irish person I should also feel humiliated because of a media report about the British remembering their dead. I have heard a lot of coverage in the UK about their own failings and as mentioned, by yourself I think, there was even an apollogy for what happened. I'm sure the British are embarrassed by the actions of a minority of their people too but they aren't humiliated by the actions of that minority.

gallag

padma wrote: »

Loyalists civilian killings ~85%
BA civilian killings ~51%
IRA civilian killings ~35%

as posted by chuck stone.

What does that even matter? The ira still killed more civilians in total. The ira killed more of the people they were ment to be protecting (Catholics) than the British army killed in total.the ira were the only group targeting the security forces so of course they will have a high percentage of non civilians, not that I see planting a bomb under the car of a prison officer as more morally acceptable.

padma

sure what can i say to that? im not standing up for the IRA here, i'm merely pointing out the whole picture of Northern Ireland, have a read through my posts.

Fratton Fred

Chuck Stone wrote: »

So you're saying that every person picked up were enemy combatants is it?



Brave soldiers, huh?

It was a total balls from the start and was patently sectarian in nature.





Yet again you ignore security force collusion with loyalist death squads and who was more discriminate.

Loyalists civilian killings ~85%
BA civilian killings ~51%
IRA civilian killings ~35%

So it was a good job they didn't employ the enemy's tactics of shoot fist ask questions later.

Percentages are a pointless figure, all that shows is that if the British army had shot ira prisoners instead of arresting them, they would have had "better" figures.

gallag

padma wrote: »

sure what can i say to that? im not standing up for the IRA here, i'm merely pointing out the whole picture of Northern Ireland, have a read through my posts.

Don't get me wrong, I think we largely agree, both sides were dicks and both sides share the blame, I was just pointing out that the reason for more commemorations for ira atrocities is because there were disproportionately more ira murders.

murphaph

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Loyalists civilian killings ~85%
BA civilian killings ~51%
IRA civilian killings ~35%

How is "civilian" defined here? Would a UFF man who had never been convicted of any crime fall under the "civilian" heading?

padma

murphaph wrote: »

How is "civilian" defined here? Would a UFF man who had never been convicted of any crime fall under the "civilian" heading?

I think it comes down to innocent victim, not involved etc... remember the news reports, after every killing if there were innocent victims etc.... take the likes of a corporal in the army, wouldnt be classed as civilian due to their involvement, likewise a UVF combatant. Civilian here would most likely be classed as uninvolved ie 11 year old boy shot by army soldiers in the Divis flats would be a civilian.

Chuck Stone

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So it was a good job they didn't employ the enemy's tactics of shoot fist ask questions later.

They didn't? What was all that shoot-to-kill and collusion business then?

Percentages are a pointless figure,

The percentages are useful in that they show that Republican para-militarism wasn't quite the orgy of indiscriminate murder and mayhem some would like to portray it as. But hey, don't listen to me. Here's what the BA themselves had to say about them.

An internal British army document examining 37 years of deployment in Northern Ireland contains the claim by one expert that it failed to defeat the IRA.

It describes the IRA as "a professional, dedicated, highly skilled and resilient force", while loyalist paramilitaries and other republican groups are described as "little more than a collection of gangsters".

bbc.co.uk

all that shows is that if the British army had shot ira prisoners instead of arresting them, they would have had "better" figures.

Even with collusion and shoot-to-kill the BA's 50% civilian kill rate is pretty bad.

Chuck Stone

murphaph wrote: »

How is "civilian" defined here? Would a UFF man who had never been convicted of any crime fall under the "civilian" heading?

I'm not sure tbh. The stats are from CAIN.

gallag

Chuck Stone wrote: »

The percentages are useful in that they show that Republican para-militarism wasn't quite the orgy of indiscriminate murder and mayhem some would like to portray it as. .

But they killed more innocent civilians than any other group, they also killed many security force persons but that does not make the civilian deaths go away, if the uda for example targeted the security forces as a primary target through the troubles and killed twice as many police, army and prison guards etc as civilians would you now hold them in higher esteem? Explane how you can not hate the ira more than the brits when the IRA killed more people from your community? It defies logic to paint them as some sort of protectors of the irish people when they killed more irish/Catholic/republican people than her majesty's forces combined.

gallag

Who killed the most Catholics? The IRA
Who killed the most protestants? The IRA
Who killed the most police? The IRA
Who killed the most army? The IRA
Who killed the most prison guards? The most children? The most women? The most people from the Republic of Ireland? The most scotts? The most ulster men? The most English and welsh?
The IRA.

Chuck Stone

gallag wrote: »

Explane how you can not hate the ira more than the brits

I don't hate either. Some of the things they did were hateful and some of the people they had in their ranks were ruthless murderers (Kingsmill/Bloody Sunday)

I just can't let the whole Republican violence = terrorism, Unionist/BA violence = security, go unchallenged.

Chuck Stone

gallag wrote: »

Who killed the most Catholics? The IRA
Who killed the most protestants? The IRA

The sectarian break down of numbers is problematic. Most of the people the PIRA killed in the so-called 'security forces' would have been Protestant.

A lot of the Catholics killed would have been informers or from feuding and what the IRA called anti-social behaviour (drug dealing, career criminals etc). Catholics would also have been targeted for what was considered colluding with the enemy (joining the UDR/BA/RUC etc)

Who killed the most children? The IRA

Do you have a source for this?.

AlekSmart

the emperors innuendo wrote: »

The only reason you’re humiliated is because the Brits engineered a successful media campaign to exploit the casualties. There have beencountless child casualties during the troubles, and the Brits are responsible for the majority of them, something you might not no.

I was only 7 when these bombings took place but when I read about them I see them as part of a broader political context. Of course the loss of young life is unfortunate and I don’t believe the intent of the bombers was that since there was a telephone warning.But like another poster pointed out, 5 civilians were murdered that very same month in Derry and yet not a mention of it in the media today.

One poster said that because it was Irish people killing Irish in this instance that it didn’t merit the media’s attention but the Warrington bombing did. Why? Are the deaths of English citizens more important than that of Irish ones? You must remember that the British Government is a representative of the English people, and the British Government were instrumental in colluding and funding terror groups such as the UDA who were responsible for the murder of 5 Irish civilians that very same month.

My feeling of humiliation,was and still is an emotional one,with absolutely sweet FA to do with "The Brits","Media Engineering" or anything else political.

I care not how you organize your League Table of atrocities against children,nor do I intend to devote much time to studying it,as to do so simply bolsters your obvious comforting belief in the principle of collateral damage.

So I'm afraid you'll have to pardon my lack of vision in not seeing the "broader political context" inherent in putting a bomb in a litter bin on a busy city centre street.

But you are correct in that the loss of young life is "unfortunate",a term which has a certain dull familiarity about it to those of a certain age group.

Your Original Post centred on your surprise over the editorial decisions of a small Radio Station,which you view as something akin to a media manipulation campaign intent on disparaging those involved in the Struggle for Irish Freedom.

All I see is two sets of parents struggling to put a face on what their child would have looked like at 32 and 23 respectively.

Personally,I'm grateful that some people,even after being so brutally traumatised,remain capable of rising way above the bitterness and cruelty which so many appear to want us all to cling to.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/warrington-bomb-attack-20-years-1766742

djpbarry

padma wrote: »

Because of the content of this thread, which is down to people genuinely thinking the IRA were the cause of all the woes of the North.

Really? Who has said anything of the sort?

padma wrote: »

As I said earlier people do need to pipe down a bit...

Yeah, those parents of dead children are make an awful racket, aren't they?

djpbarry

Chuck Stone wrote: »

The percentages are useful in that they show that Republican para-militarism wasn't quite the orgy of indiscriminate murder and mayhem some would like to portray it as.

So putting bombs in litter bins on busy streets was intended to cause something other than mayhem and indiscriminate murder?

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I just can't let the whole Republican violence = terrorism, Unionist/BA violence = security, go unchallenged.

As so often happens on these threads, you're inventing a position to challenge.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

A lot of the Catholics killed would have been informers or from feuding and what the IRA called anti-social behaviour (drug dealing, career criminals etc). Catholics would also have been targeted for what was considered colluding with the enemy (joining the UDR/BA/RUC etc)

So it's ok to kill so long as it's bad Catholics you're killing?

monkeypants

I think the OP's on to something here. Julius Caesar was assassinated just before St. Patrick's Day and yet there's no mention of it from the media, just this collective guilt trip that they're intent to take us on, making us ashamed to be Irish on our national drinking day. What about the Italians?

Happyman42

Play To Kill wrote: »

If you follow the thread you will see that I have answered the OP by saying I don't feel humiliated because of a media report about a ceremony to remember murder victims but I do feel embarrassed and outraged that the IRA claimed to murder in mine and every Irish persons name.

The IRA did not do what they did in 'every Irish persons name', they did it in the name of every Irish Republican.
And I'm just wondering which bit of a 'terror campaign' people don't get? terror campaigns are what happen in societies where governments refuse to take responsibility and do what has to be done, what was done eventually. Everywhere in the world the lid has come off when governments fail to do that. I hate what was done in Northern Ireland. But it is the constant failure of successive governments of Ireland and Britain to sit down and negotiate that is humiliating and shaming or should be to 'every' Irish and British person on the planet. That failure to insist that our 'responsible' governments sit down and work out a deal where everybody could live in peace resulted in the deaths of 3000 odd people. IT WAS ALWAYS possible if the will had been there. The fact that people are largely living in peace now is testament to that fact and instead of pointlessly apportioning retrospective blame we should be insisting that the governments, and those democratically elected to represent the various sides work even harder to make sure the lid never comes off again.

golfball37

We've plenty of reasons to be ashamed of being Irish these days.

The troubles were so long ago I have forgotten most of the individual incidents. Warrington was a nadir however and I will alwyas remember how awful I felt after it so in my opinion its no surprise its commemorated.

If were to guess where the OP is going with his rant I'd say he's wondering why our media fixate on the IRA's part in the northern troubles?

I can never understand how we as a people show disgust towards SF for supporting the IRA but not a peep towards the Politicians who let 33 of our own citizens die and never once asked a question about it?
Instead they send the Gardai heavy gang to silence the victims families from asking questions. That sort of carry on makes me equally as ashamed as anything the IRA have done.

I believe all killing is wrong not just some.

Chuck Stone

djpbarry wrote: »

So putting bombs in litter bins on busy streets was intended to cause something other than mayhem and indiscriminate murder?

I was talking about the IRA campaign and the context of it in general. The killing of civilians only ever hurt 'the cause'. There was widespread disgust with the PIRA by people who'd have been sympathetic to them after bombings like that which took place in Enniskillen and Warrington.

As so often happens on these threads, you're inventing a position to challenge.

No. As so often happens in these threads it's condemn, condemn, condemn all things Republican without placing it in a wider context.

So it's ok to kill so long as it's bad Catholics you're killing?

Such a stupid question. Killing is a bad thing. Even when it involves people who knew the risks (PIRA/BA etc). The killing of civilians is reprehensible and the killing of children is evil.

Play To Kill

Happyman42 wrote: »

The IRA did not do what they did in 'every Irish persons name', they did it in the name of every Irish Republican.

I'm an Irish republican and they didn't do it in my name or the names of the majority of Irish republicans.

Happyman42

Play To Kill wrote: »

I'm an Irish republican and they didn't do it in my name or the names of the majority of Irish republicans.

I tend to focus on what wasn't done. You can't undo the past, but you can ensure that the past doesn't happen again, if you insist that the people vested with the responsibility, do what has to be done.

irishgrover

the emperors innuendo wrote: »

...So I came to the conclusion that this headline is part of a much wider campaign of national humiliation that we ought to be reminded and ashamed of an IRA bombing which took place in England 20 years ago. It’s no surprise to me that the headline coincided with the ST. Patricks weekend and perhaps the headline is a suggestion to Irish people that we should disassociate ourselves from feelings of national pride which has the potential to rise during the month of Easter and St. Patricks festivities.
......The only reason you’re humiliated is because the Brits engineered a successful media campaign to exploit the casualties........ Of course the loss of young life is unfortunate and I don’t believe the intent of the bombers was that since there was a telephone warning......

IMHO the OP has no f*cking clue what he is talking about.
To be honest the ignorance and stupidity of his comments sicken and embarrass me...
The use of other atrocities to justify murdering children is by no means a new concept but it remains as retarded now as it did 20 years ago..

djpbarry

Chuck Stone wrote: »

As so often happens in these threads it's condemn, condemn, condemn all things Republican without placing it in a wider context.

I see. So I can't condemn the Warrington Bombings without including something about the Brits being bastards?

AlekSmart

irishgrover wrote: »

IMHO the OP has no f*cking clue what he is talking about.
To be honest the ignorance and stupidity of his comments sicken and embarrass me...
The use of other atrocities to justify murdering children is by no means a new concept but it remains as retarded now as it did 20 years ago..

There's possibly a grain of truth in Irishgrovers response here.

The OP was framed in a somewhat more individualistic manner than many of the usual Irish/British posts and I felt was worth responding to in that vein.

I found the OP's somewhat OTT perception that Spirit FM's decision to feature the Warrington anniversary was part of a "conspiracy" of National Humiliation should be challenged.

Having done that,I'm happy enough to bow back out as the thread descends,as ever,into the usual titfortattery,which convienently blurs those photo's of a 12 and 3 year old child with their life yet to live.

That somebody today walks freely around,perhaps worrying about their own childrens safety,with the knowledge that they butchered these two kids causes me far more worry and angst than any amount of wild eyed Provo vs Orangeman rhetoric.

I wonder if the "Operative/s" who left that bomb,ever bothered to look into those childrens faces and consider,even momentarily,what they had done to them ?

Regrettable...shrug shoulders and walk on by ?

Fair play to Spirit FM however,in that even by ensuring the emperor's innuendo had his breakfast interrupted by hearing the names of Tim Parry and Jonathan Ball served at least some Public Service purpose.

Does that humiliate me as an Irishman ?

No it certainly does not.

What does humiliate me is the knowledge that Tim Parry's parents could manage to put the awful violence visited upon their child and yet still come out fighting the good fight for humanity....THAT humiliates me,because I cannot see myself coming close to that level of understanding and human compassion in the same circumstances.

It obviously sticks in the craw of many to be asked to understand the mind-set of these Parents who can rise to this as a means of commemorating their sons 20th anniversary..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21836735.

Well done I say.

Happyman42

AlekSmart wrote: »

There's possibly a grain of truth in Irishgrovers response here.

The OP was framed in a somewhat more individualistic manner than many of the usual Irish/British posts and I felt was worth responding to in that vein.

I found the OP's somewhat OTT perception that Spirit FM's decision to feature the Warrington anniversary was part of a "conspiracy" of National Humiliation should be challenged.

Having done that,I'm happy enough to bow back out as the thread descends,as ever,into the usual titfortattery,which convienently blurs those photo's of a 12 and 3 year old child with their life yet to live.

That somebody today walks freely around,perhaps worrying about their own childrens safety,with the knowledge that they butchered these two kids causes me far more worry and angst than any amount of wild eyed Provo vs Orangeman rhetoric.

I wonder if the "Operative/s" who left that bomb,ever bothered to look into those childrens faces and consider,even momentarily,what they had done to them ?

Regrettable...shrug shoulders and walk on by ?

Fair play to Spirit FM however,in that even by ensuring the emperor's innuendo had his breakfast interrupted by hearing the names of Tim Parry and Jonathan Ball served at least some Public Service purpose.

Does that humiliate me as an Irishman ?

No it certainly does not.

What does humiliate me is the knowledge that Tim Parry's parents could manage to put the awful violence visited upon their child and yet still come out fighting the good fight for humanity....THAT humiliates me,because I cannot see myself coming close to that level of understanding and human compassion in the same circumstances.

It obviously sticks in the craw of many to be asked to understand the mind-set of these Parents who can rise to this as a means of commemorating their sons 20th anniversary..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21836735.

Well done I say.

Which is why the press/media should be the loudest calling for a proper in-depth, doesn't matter how long or how much it costs, Truth and Reconciliation Commission, in which all sides take a full, transparent and honest part.
Cherry picking events to commemorate is always going to bring about bouts of whataboutery. Tragically, nobody has a monopoly on grief or indeed, anger about what happened. Having taken part in a number of locally based schemes I have seen the opportunity for healing with my own eyes.
It won't be nice or tasteful but it offers the only chance to properly respect the memory of all those who made the ultimate sarcrifice.

djpbarry

Happyman42 wrote: »

Which is why the press/media should be the loudest calling for a proper in-depth, doesn't matter how long or how much it costs, Truth and Reconciliation Commission, in which all sides take a full, transparent and honest part.

No side will ever be completely satisfied with "the truth" - there will always be demands for more digging to be done and more old wounds to be opened.

Happyman42

djpbarry wrote: »

No side will ever be completely satisfied with "the truth" - there will always be demands for more digging to be done and more old wounds to be opened.

Not a good enough reason to not do it. It is the only option really.

padma

Truth and reconciliation is a fantastic way of dealing with the trauma people have suffered from loss of loved ones. Only today an apology was given by the British Government for the killing of an innocent man more than 30 years ago.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0319/377339-british-govt-apologises-for-1974-tyrone-death/

The family of a Co Tyrone man, who was killed by British soldiers in 1974, has received an apology from the British government.
Britain said "the death was an absolute tragedy that should not have happened".
John Pat Cunningham was shot by the soldiers in a field near Benburb as he ran away from them.
There was medical evidence that Mr Cunningham, who was 27 years old with the mental age of a child, had an apprehension towards soldiers and their uniforms.
One June Saturday in 1974, a British army patrol was in a rural area outside the village..
Mr Cunningham saw the jeeps and ran away.
Some of the soldiers pursued him and he was hit by three bullets as he tried to flee. He died from the wounds.
After 39 years, the Historical Enquiries Team revisited the file.
The letter of apology was signed by Minister of State for Britain's Armed Forces Andrew Robathan.
Charlie Agnew, a nephew of Mr Cunningham, said the family welcomed the apology.
However, he was angry that the soldiers responsible for the shooting did not give an account of their actions and could not be compelled to do so.

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

Which is why the press/media should be the loudest calling for a proper in-depth, doesn't matter how long or how much it costs, Truth and Reconciliation Commission, in which all sides take a full, transparent and honest part.
Cherry picking events to commemorate is always going to bring about bouts of whataboutery. Tragically, nobody has a monopoly on grief or indeed, anger about what happened. Having taken part in a number of locally based schemes I have seen the opportunity for healing with my own eyes.
It won't be nice or tasteful but it offers the only chance to properly respect the memory of all those who made the ultimate sarcrifice.

Empty vessels make the most noise, and no sound is hollower or emptier than the likes of Gerry Adams and his cohort calling for a Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

If they are truly sorry for what they did and truly wish to make amends and to tell the truth, just do it. They don't need to wait for a Commission to apologise and tell the truth. What have they to fear?

djpbarry

Happyman42 wrote: »

Not a good enough reason to not do it. It is the only option really.

Drawing a line under the past and moving on isn't an option?

Happyman42

Godge wrote: »

Empty vessels make the most noise, and no sound is hollower or emptier than the likes of Gerry Adams and his cohort calling for a Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

If they are truly sorry for what they did and truly wish to make amends and to tell the truth, just do it. They don't need to wait for a Commission to apologise and tell the truth. What have they to fear?

Fairly typical that you get that type of remark on here. Consider the potential damage a 'onesided free for all telling of the truth' would do and how destabilising it would be on a fragile peace process. . It's an everybody or nobody situation I'm afraid, I suspect there are many out there who are quite comfortable with 'Gerry and his cohorts' maintaining their silence for fear of what might be revealed about what they did or didn't do.

A Truth and Reconciliation Commission is not just a forum for making apologies, it's about the truth, however unpalatable that might be, for all sides.

padma

The truth and reconciliation is about just that, truth and reconciliation. As done in South Africa, the benefits were huge to the society. It all came out, both sides sitting down with one another. That is a fundamental part of their peace process.

And sure look we are talking about both sides here coming in from the cold

LordSutch

Not so long ago we got wall to wall coverage of the bloody sunday tribunal & the surrounding marches/commemorations etc surrounding it,
and now we get this one mention of the anniversary of Warrington, and some people get exercised & critical of Spirit FM for even mentioning it.

Also, I wonder what British people make of all these threads with slurs being attached to, and thrown at "The British" (and The Brits).
Surely its time to think of another way to describe the London government & the UK authorities of the time other than "The British"?

Can you imagine if an equivalent Boards.uk was constantly having a go at the Irish and the Paddies?

"So it was the Irish who planted the Warrington Bomb, or it was The Irish who did that murder, or The Irish who shot that policeman dead,
The Irish who blew up that bus, The Irish who shot him in the knee caps, etc".

Not too sure we would be comfortable if the actions of the PIRA/INLA were attributed to us "The Irish".

just a thought.

murphaph

Happyman42 wrote: »

It won't be nice or tasteful but it offers the only chance to properly respect the memory of all those who made the ultimate sarcrifice.

..and those who were sacrificed for somebody else's cause.

Paramite Pie

the emperors innuendo wrote: »

I think the media has some cheek to mention the war during a weekend of festivities. I for one don't really care what the IRA did and I certainly won't have it rubbed in my face while having breakfast.

It was hardly rubbed in your face. If you don't like what you hear then don't listen to it.

the emperors innuendo wrote: »

It came as a surprise to me that for some reason the producers of 'Spirit FM' thought that Irish people would even care about this considering the fact that this happened a long time ago within a larger context and that this somehow amounted to Irish news.

Many people care. I care. And the context was a terrorist act. The wider context was a terrorist campaign. You say this happened long ago but so did all the British atrocities you mentioned in the thread.

Selective memory?:rolleyes:

the emperors innuendo wrote: »

So I came to the conclusion that this headline is part of a much wider campaign of national humiliation that we ought to be reminded and ashamed of an IRA bombing which took place in England 20 years ago.It’s no surprise to me that the headline coincided with the ST. Patricks weekend and perhaps the headline is a suggestion to Irish people that we should disassociate ourselves from feelings of national pride which has the potential to rise during the month of Easter and St. Patricks festivities.

And it had nothing to do with the 20th of March being close to the 17th?

the emperors innuendo wrote: »

Am I the only the one who sees that the media reminds of random events from the troubles which portray nationalists as the perpetrators of violence?

There's been plenty of commemorations for Bloody Sunday but I guess you only see what you want to see.

Also this was not a random event, it was premeditated terrorism. And the IRA were perpetrators of violence.

the emperors innuendo wrote: »

I'm sure if you typed in the month of march into the chronology of the troubles you will find many more events worthy of a commemoration. I won't raise my kids leading them to believe that the IRA were the perpetrators of violence when it was the British who instigated the violence. I won't allow the media whitewash a conflict with their own distorted view of what happened. I know what happened and I won't be subjected to any type of national humiliation

Violence doesn't justify more violence. You should read up on Gandhi. He opposed British violence in a way that tactless Republicans like you could never understand.

Happyman42

murphaph wrote: »

..and those who were sacrificed for somebody else's cause.

Yes, primarily for them, unfortunately the innocent die in all wars, accidently and on purpose and we owe most to them and one of the ways to pay them respect is to take responsibility and ensure it doesn't happen again.

AlekSmart

Happyman42 wrote: »

Cherry picking events to commemorate is always going to bring about bouts of whataboutery.

But the point here is that the Warrington Atrocity was'nt "Cherrypicked"..It was the 20th Anniversary of the damn thing....

The only way to avoid offending the emperors innuendo's sensitivities would have been for the IRA to have declared a moratorium on attacks during March,being it of a Saint Patricks Day n'all that....?

Although perhaps the OP is correct in some ways,as reading through some of the responses is enough to provoke the beginnings of a humiliation response.

Happyman42

AlekSmart wrote: »

But the point here is that the Warrington Atrocity was'nt "Cherrypicked"..It was the 20th Anniversary of the damn thing....

I'm sorry to have to disagree, it was cherry-picked, there are anniversaries almost every day for children killed in the troubles and in 40 years have never merited a mention on the airwaves.
A better way to do this would be to have a significant and solemn 'National Day' of mourning. We are the country that can organise a national piss-up like Arthurs Day, it can't be too hard to remember them all.

padma

Happyman42 wrote: »

I'm sorry to have to disagree, it was cherry-picked, there are anniversaries almost every day for children killed in the troubles and in 40 years have never merited a mention on the airwaves.
A better way to do this would be to have a significant and solemn 'National Day' of mourning. We are the country that can organise a national piss-up like Arthurs Day, it can't be too hard to remember them all.

This is an interesting concept and certainly one that merits a deeper discussion. As a nation we have had a traumatic experience as a country, of course not as crazy as some conflicts in the world have been, but nevertheless, an experience which was shared by everyone living on this Island, and indeed our friends across the water have also shared trauma.

Both the Republic Of Ireland and mainland Britain both shared atrocities but in comparison to what the People in The North went through it was a lot less.(not belittling the terrible things that have happened outside the Borders around Northern Ireland.)

Everyday we saw it in the news, Daily and hourly the radio was giving the news about last night in the North.

We have all shared the legacy, the conflict has shaped us as a people and it is only in the last 12/15 years we have had peace. This has led to us moving forward in a new spirit of togetherness and even that little bit of cooperation from the major parties has given Ireland hope that it will one day be at peace and no longer there being ill feelings between each communities.

So a day to commemorate the Peace agreement, without the finger pointing about who's to blame etc.. may lead to a deeper reflection of what peace really means to us and how peace is something we build on, and create to make a better situation for everyone who was involved. Also those who weren't involved but got effected. Innocent people, people who were trapped in their struggles and the Irish people and British people who witnessed it all happening around us.

It would have to be of course a day to commemorate the Peace agreement as this reminds people annually about how much better it is as a country to not be at war internally. It is a case of getting all the Major parties together and putting aside their squabbles, mistrust and their fear of the voting public, to get such a national commemoration happening.

Yet, while the media are showing a lot of the negative things about Northern Ireland we can't move forward. Yet beyond the media attention a lot of work has been done cross-community rebuilding lives, co-operation and now the North has its own power sharing executive, something which was beyond the dreams and aspirations for many people 15 years ago.

K-9

Happyman42 wrote: »

I'm sorry to have to disagree, it was cherry-picked, there are anniversaries almost every day for children killed in the troubles and in 40 years have never merited a mention on the airwaves.
A better way to do this would be to have a significant and solemn 'National Day' of mourning. We are the country that can organise a national piss-up like Arthurs Day, it can't be too hard to remember them all.

Let's not cherry pick Bloody Sunday or Enniskillen and instead have a national day. That would be great but I'll be shocked when I see it, 1 sides losses are always more important and the other sides always carry a "whatabout us".

I look forward to you suggesting the same come the 30th of January next year.

Happyman42

Where do you see me mention 'one side' in a national day of remembrance and respect?
I think some on here really need to examine their 'selective disgust' at what happened. To champion the deaths of two small boys or to use it as a weapon for your unresolved hate, while you ignore all the other deaths like that of Margaret Gargan 13, or Katryn Eakin, 9, really is no tribute worth a damm to those two unfortunates.
And unfortunately that is what happens in Southern broadcasting particularily, the constant references to one sides casualties. Led by the likes of Joe Duffy. Where was the likes of Duffy the day Katryn Eakin got killed? No doubt indulging his selective and useless condemnation sideswipes, why didn't her death bring the chorus of disgust that pressured our leaders to get a peace deal done? Why did the killing of an innocent child by a trigger happy soldier not bring 'the great unwashed disgusted Irish' onto the streets demanding an end?
As I say, some people really need to examine their selective disgust and 'shock'.
A Truth and Reconciliation Commission to address the losses and questions of all parents and families and then as reconciliation find a way to properly respect and remember all who died.
If the Parry's want to remember their loss as well and the Bloody Sunday families , so be it, there is no harm in that as long at the whataboutery brigade stay silent.

K-9

Happyman42 wrote: »

Where do you see me mention 'one side' in a national day of remembrance and respect?
I think some on here really need to examine their 'selective disgust' at what happened. To champion the deaths of two small boys or to use it as a weapon for your unresolved hate, while you ignore all the other deaths like that of Margaret Gargan 13, or Katryn Eakin, 9, really is no tribute worth a damm to those two unfortunates.
And unfortunately that is what happens in Southern broadcasting particularily, the constant references to one sides casualties. Led by the likes of Joe Duffy. Where was the likes of Duffy the day Katryn Eakin got killed? No doubt indulging his selective and useless condemnation sideswipes, why didn't her death bring the chorus of disgust that pressured our leaders to get a peace deal done? Why did the killing of an innocent child by a trigger happy soldier not bring 'the great unwashed disgusted Irish' onto the streets demanding an end?
As I say, some people really need to examine their selective disgust and 'shock'.
A Truth and Reconciliation Commission to address the losses and questions of all parents and families and then as reconciliation find a way to properly respect and remember all who died.

Agreed

If the Parry's want to remember their loss as well and the Bloody Sunday families , so be it, there is no harm in that as long at the whataboutery brigade stay silent.

QED

If only the whataboutery and hypocrisy would stay silent.

LordSutch

A TOWN will fall silent today to mark the 20th anniversary of the murder of two boys in an IRA outrage.

Tim Parry, 12, and three-year-old Johnathan Ball were killed when two bombs exploded in litter bins in Warrington, Cheshire, on March 20, 1993.

A further 56 people were injured in the attack on Bridge Street in the town centre.

No warning was given and nobody has ever been prosecuted for the outrage, which took place the day before Mothering Sunday.

A minute’s silence will be observed throughout Warrington at 12.27pm today, the exact time of the bombing.



Full article here > > > http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/2013/03/20/warrington-bomb-20th-anniversary-town-will-fall-silent-to-remember-tim-parry-and-johnathan-ball-100252-33025524/

Happyman42

LordSutch wrote: »

A TOWN will fall silent today to mark the 20th anniversary of the murder of two boys in an IRA outrage.

Tim Parry, 12, and three-year-old Johnathan Ball were killed when two bombs exploded in litter bins in Warrington, Cheshire, on March 20, 1993.

A further 56 people were injured in the attack on Bridge Street in the town centre.

No warning was given and nobody has ever been prosecuted for the outrage, which took place the day before Mothering Sunday.

A minute’s silence will be observed throughout Warrington at 12.27pm today, the exact time of the bombing.



Full article here > > > http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/2013/03/20/warrington-bomb-20th-anniversary-town-will-fall-silent-to-remember-tim-parry-and-johnathan-ball-100252-33025524/

May they rest in peace. Beautiful children.

T runner

padma wrote: »

........

Im not a nationalist, but I do not condemn the actions of one group, I condemn the actions of all the groups there. The state of Northern Ireland from the 20's til the civil rights movement was illegal, sectarian, and discriminatory towards catholics.

....as Ulster had been for the preceding 250 years.

padma

T runner wrote: »

....as Ulster had been for the preceding 250 years.

The whole island was, not just the northern half.