National Humiliation

K-9

T runner wrote: »

You implied Catholic sectarianism was just as problematic as Protestant sectrianism, which it is not. It is minor in comparison.

I don't know if it is just as problematic, I just don't dismiss it as that's the impression I'm getting from you. To be clear, I find all sectarianism problematic, I don't apportion it or anything like that, its vile no matter who practices it.

The relevance to this thread is that low media coverage of Loyalist murder of Catholic civilians means that it is not challenged and attacked as sectarian murder.

Most know there was many, many sectarian murders on both sides, its self-evident for most that sectarianism played a big part in the Troubles.

In my opinion we are not far from a sectarian murder on a Catholic as evidenced by the flag protests. Biased, agenda driven media coverage means that it is easier for this type of murder to resurface again. National humiliation might be one consequence of this biased coverage: assisting the re-emergence of sectarian murder by down playing it, is surely another.

That's always a danger in the North unfortunately. I don't really see what the English media has to do with that, the protests got some coverage in England, the US etc. and loyalists hardly came well out of it. Again, I think you are seeing bias because well, you are partisan in your beliefs, nothing wrong with that, I'm just saying you'll look at this a certain way, like linking to a study to prove some point that nobody was disputing.

Happyman42 wrote: »

What is it with posters claiming something is unimportant or inconsequential on a thread they are all over, defending a viewpoint? Deal with the subject matter and stop trying to deflect when it gets too much for you.

What's with your attitude?

You made a generalistic, stupid comment about partionists, if you don't like the same in return, I'd suggest stop making the comments, then nobody will have any need to reply to simplistic nonsense.

Happyman42

K-9 wrote: »

What's with your attitude?

You made a generalistic, stupid comment about partionists, if you don't like the same in return, I'd suggest stop making the comments, then nobody will have any need to reply to simplistic nonsense.

You tried it before I ever mentioned 'partitionist'. Your default if you cannot answer is to rubbish the relevance of the post. Juvenile debating, please desist.

K-9

@T runner, it would be nice if you could link to the media coverage remembering events in 1973 to see if there is a media bias.

My suspicion is there isn't and we aren't discussing real bias at all, just emotional perceptions.

gurramok

K-9 wrote: »

Nope, I specifically said it was a horrible way of doing things a few posts back, so I don't why you are even asking that. The media across the world often react to whatever sells most copies or internet hits, or gets more ratings.

Which is why it needs to change to give balance.

K-9 wrote: »

Well yes, if its a big enough story, its hardly surprising or shocking. A English police office murdered would attract more attention than Ronan Kerr.

Again, no balance.

K-9 wrote: »

Is that ok and fair?

No, its a class issue as I said already.

K-9 wrote: »

From the past? Can you point out this massive coverage? I see loads of generalisations on this thread but very little examples.

Masserene Vs Coleraine murder.

Chuck Stone

K-9 wrote: »

My suspicion is there isn't and we aren't discussing real bias at all, just emotional perceptions.

This post shines a little light on the victim hierarchy.

djpbarry

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I think most British people (over a certain age) would remember the Shankill bomb, Greysteel or the Loughinisland massacre.

What they would struggle with is who carried them out.

Sorry - I should have qualified my post with "in my experience".

T runner

K-9 wrote: »

I don't know if it is just as problematic, I just don't dismiss it as that's the impression I'm getting from you. To be clear, I find all sectarianism problematic, I don't apportion it or anything like that, its vile no matter who practices it.

If you want to eradicate sectarianism you must find the root. Im not dismissing Catholic sectarianism i've already acknowledged it, i'm saying it is minor compared to the scale of Protestant sectarianism.
Sectarianism in NI has its roots in Fundamentalist anti-catholic Protestant philosophy: "Baal worshippers, wafer god worshippers, anti-christ, beast teaching etc etc", crossing into sectarian attitudes by ordinary Protestants against ordinary Catholics. Catholics are viewed as dirty, slothful, disloyal, murderous etc. This level of degradation is not reciprocated by Catholics.

Sectarianism is not an attribute of the Catholic community in general.

Your attitude resembles the lazy media attitude of calling sectarianism deplorable on all sides but refusing to acknowledge that it is only really a fundamental attitude in one sides culture.

Most know there was many, many sectarian murders on both sides, its self-evident for most that sectarianism played a big part in the Troubles.

The vast majority of sectarian murders were carried out by the Loyalist/British army side indicating a particular issue that exists. The particular issue that exists is a clue to the actual root of sectarianism in NI.

Pretending that sectarianism is an evil inevitably affecting both sides equally ia an untruth. You want to weed out sectarianism? find the root and remove it. The root is anti-Catholicism in NI.

That's always a danger in the North unfortunately. I don't really see what the English media has to do with that, the protests got some coverage in England, the US etc. and loyalists hardly came well out of it. Again, I think you are seeing bias because well, you are partisan in your beliefs, nothing wrong with that, I'm just saying you'll look at this a certain way, like linking to a study to prove some point that nobody was disputing.

Do you even read my posts?

Only acknowledging one sides victims and not acknowledging historical murders by loyalists makes it easier for loyalists to murder again. Do you agree or disagree? Media coverage of the past in a biased manner is dangerous.

K-9

gurramok wrote: »

Which is why it needs to change to give balance.

Well, all you are looking for is a root and branch reform of established media throughout the world.

Again, no balance.

Its down to significance, as the piece linked to shows. An attack in England will attract more attention than Ronan Kerr simply because it is more significant. Hell, sure the IRA played up to this throughout the troubles, they even broke the ceasefire with a bomb in London.

No, its a class issue as I said already.

No, you said it was class and social standing.

Masserene Vs Coleraine murder.

Because one is seen as a political murder with political repercussions, the other as sectarian.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

This post shines a little light on the victim hierarchy.

I'd say he is largely correct there, acceptable level of violence again. Something that hasn't been mentioned is the many programmes by Panorama and World in Action devoted to Shoot to Kill, Gibraltar, Guildford 4 etc., I wonder would anybody suggest bias there?

Again, I still don't see much bias in commemorations which is what the thread is about, not reports from 15 years ago while the ceasefire was on a break.

gurramok

K-9 wrote: »

Well, all you are looking for is a root and branch reform of established media throughout the world.

No, just Britain and our homegrown Indo titles. NI titles do mostly report the news.

The media is a huge source of education on current affairs, the British public do not receive that education of NI affairs.

K-9 wrote: »

Its down to significance, as the piece linked to shows. An attack in England will attract more attention than Ronan Kerr simply because it is more significant. Hell, sure the IRA played up to this throughout the troubles, they even broke the ceasefire with a bomb in London.

Again, the British media is responsible for creating a hierarchy of victims giving incentive to strike England more so than NI as it will give more attention.

K-9 wrote: »

No, you said it was class and social standing.

Nitpicking, both are related to each other. Not relevant to the NI murder sprees.

K-9 wrote: »

Because one is seen as a political murder with political repercussions, the other as sectarian.

Both murders were related to the political situation. The Coleraine victim was from the Nationalist community and the perpetrators from the Loyalist community.

Fratton Fred

T runner wrote: »

Would they remember the Ballymurphy massacre? And if they did would they struggle with who carried those 11 killings out? Why Not?

Is that when the British army irresponsibly fired at people accidentally killing some?
/Sarcasm.

Good question, one I can't answer. Ballymurphy has not had the media coverage that bloody Sunday has, so I would guess not.

Happyman42

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Is that when the British army irresponsibly fired at people accidentally killing some?
/Sarcasm.

That may have happened in other cases, but not this one, there was no doubt about their 'intention' when they aimed those guns. The irresponsible thing was having an indisiplined bunch of soldiers there in the first place.

Nodin

Happyman42 wrote: »

That may have happened in other cases, but not this one, there was no doubt about their 'intention' when they aimed those guns. The irresponsible thing was having an indisiplined bunch of soldiers there in the first place.

Considering the age and gender of the vast majority, it was nothing to do with "indicipline". This was colonial "policing" as the Africans knew it.

K-9

gurramok wrote: »

No, just Britain and our homegrown Indo titles. NI titles do mostly report the news.

Obviously NI titles will as its local news, they'd cover punishment beatings as its newsworthy, the Independent used to give the North plenty of coverage, rarely read it now so I don't know now. As the linked article shows, unless its a high profile case, sectarian murders just don't get the column inches. During the troubles it just wasn't news anymore unless it was "out of the ordinary". Same happened with Iraq and Afghanistan, I doubt the US press is much different.

The media is a huge source of education on current affairs, the British public do not receive that education of NI affairs.

Nope, doubt they get much education on Welsh or Scottish affairs either.

Again, the British media is responsible for creating a hierarchy of victims giving incentive to strike England more so than NI as it will give more attention.

Well it has logic, I'll give you that, London is a target because its a wealthy city so I suppose Londoners are responsible for that too!

Nitpicking, both are related to each other. Not relevant to the NI murder sprees.

Really? You agree class and social standing effects how things are reported and you don't think that is relevant to NI? Tell me this, why do you think Mountbatten gets plenty of coverage, Warrenpoint, the biggest military casualty list that occurred on the same day, rarely gets mentioned?

Both murders were related to the political situation. The Coleraine victim was from the Nationalist community and the perpetrators from the Loyalist community.

Sectarian murders aren't as high profile as bombs going of or police officers murdered, especially these days. RIRA members killing each other doesn't get any attention in England either.

Tbh, I do see your points and I agree with a lot of it, I just don't see it as a conspiracy or even intentional, most of it is how media operates these days, and they can be a self serving, despicable bunch overall, not just on this. We are just going round in circles now so I'll leave it there.

Fratton Fred

Happyman42 wrote: »

That may have happened in other cases, but not this one, there was no doubt about their 'intention' when they aimed those guns. The irresponsible thing was having an indisiplined bunch of soldiers there in the first place.

Ok, so the double standards are on both sides then.

Children murdered in Warrington = Accident

People murdered in Ballymurphy = Colonial policing.

Happyman42

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Ok, so the double standards are on both sides then.

Children murdered in Warrington = Accident

People murdered in Ballymurphy = Colonial policing.

I never mentioned 'colonial policing'. And if I thought the deaths in Warrington where 'murder' then I wouldn't be calling them 'accidental'.

K-9

Happyman42 wrote: »

I never mentioned 'colonial policing'. And if I thought the deaths in Warrington where 'murder' then I wouldn't be calling them 'accidental'.

Did you and Nodin miss the clearly stated sarcastic note of fratton fred,

Even I thought you'd have seen the sarcasm, especially since fratton fred said it was posted sarcastically. whooooshhhh.

Seriously, facepalm moment.

Happyman42

K-9 wrote: »

Did you and Nodin miss the clearly stated sarcastic note of fratton fred,

Even I thought you'd have seen the sarcasm, especially since fratton fred said it was posted sarcastically. whooooshhhh.

Seriously, facepalm moment.

Does his lame attempt at 'sarcasm' preclude answering it? :rolleyes: You should get that 'whooooshhhing' looked at.

djpbarry

gurramok wrote: »

The media is a huge source of education on current affairs, the British public do not receive that education of NI affairs.

They don't receive it because they're not interested. Something about some flag protest in Belfast pops up on the TV screen and people think "what the ****?" and change the channel. You can't force people to learn about something they don't care about.

K-9 wrote: »

Nope, doubt they get much education on Welsh or Scottish affairs either.

...

RIRA members killing each other doesn't get any attention in England either.

You're making a very clear distinction between "England" and "Britain" for some reason? Scottish and Welsh knowledge of NI affairs is no better than English.

gurramok

djpbarry wrote: »

They don't receive it because they're not interested. Something about some flag protest in Belfast pops up on the TV screen and people think "what the ****?" and change the channel. You can't force people to learn about something they don't care about.

For recent incidents, they could at least publicise each death with an in depth paragraph of the background of the incident. Masserene got pages upon pages of coverage for many days and many hours of tv news, a big paragraph is not much asking for is it?
It would help balance things a bit for starters. Readers can choose to read or not, at least the option of receiving coverage would be there.

djpbarry

gurramok wrote: »

It would help balance things a bit for starters.

Is it not incredibly naive to assume the media is in any way interested in "balance"?

gurramok

djpbarry wrote: »

Is it not incredibly naive to assume the media is in any way interested in "balance"?

They should be as servants of our news, yes? Educating the public of current events will help defeat ignorance of the populace about happenings in a part of the UK.

djpbarry

gurramok wrote: »

They should be as servants of our news, yes?

Most media outlets are private companies seeking to maximise profit and market share – if more “balance” means fewer viewers, then you ain’t gonna get more balance.

gurramok wrote: »

Educating the public of current events will help defeat ignorance of the populace about happenings in a part of the UK.

It is not the responsibility of the media to educate people. It is the responsibility of people to educate themselves.

gurramok

djpbarry wrote: »

Most media outlets are private companies seeking to maximise profit and market share – if more “balance” means fewer viewers, then you ain’t gonna get more balance.

BBC?

djpbarry wrote: »

It is not the responsibility of the media to educate people. It is the responsibility of people to educate themselves.

Well then, it does explain why alot of English people are ignorant about NI issues but claim shock and disgust when said issues surface at a national level in the UK whereby only one side of the story is broadcast to the detriment of the other side.

djpbarry

gurramok wrote: »

BBC?

I did say most. But seeing as you bring it up, do you suppose the average British person gets more of their news from the BBC or tabloid newspapers?

gurramok wrote: »

Well then, it does explain why alot of English people are ignorant about NI issues...

You think Scottish and Welsh people are any less ignorant?

gurramok

djpbarry wrote: »

I did say most. But seeing as you bring it up, do you suppose the average British person gets more of their news from the BBC or tabloid newspapers?

For current affairs, yes. For celebrity gossip, the tabloids!

djpbarry wrote: »

You think Scottish and Welsh people are any less ignorant?

Yes, I actually do. At least more of them per head know Ireland has 2 separate states. Your average Scot knows about NI more, heck the Orange institution has large branches in Scotland.

djpbarry

gurramok wrote: »

For current affairs, yes. For celebrity gossip, the tabloids!

You sure? About 8 million tabloid newspapers are sold in the UK every day, but only about 5 million people tune into the 6 O'Clock news on BBC. I'm going to take some convincing that there's a large overlap between those two groups.

gurramok wrote: »

Yes, I actually do.

Really? You think the average person in Wales has a significantly better understanding of current affairs in Northern Ireland relative to the average person in England? Why might that be?

gurramok wrote: »

At least more of them per head know Ireland has 2 separate states.

Given that the overwhelming majority of people in Britain are aware of the existence of an international border on the island of Ireland, and the fact that anyone who doesn't is likely a brain-dead idiot, the above is a pretty meaningless statement.

gurramok

djpbarry wrote: »

You sure? About 8 million tabloid newspapers are sold in the UK every day, but only about 5 million people tune into the 6 O'Clock news on BBC. I'm going to take some convincing that there's a large overlap between those two groups.

What is the total including the 10pm news?(and Newsnight)

djpbarry wrote: »

Really? You think the average person in Wales has a significantly better understanding of current affairs in Northern Ireland relative to the average person in England? Why might that be?

Yes, they know their history as a Celtic nation and have their own language. They know NI better than the average English person.

djpbarry wrote: »

Given that the overwhelming majority of people in Britain are aware of the existence of an international border on the island of Ireland, and the fact that anyone who doesn't is likely a brain-dead idiot, the above is a pretty meaningless statement.

No its not. Its often stated here in Boardsland and in real life that some English do not realise Dublin for example is outside the UK and we use our own currency. Yes its pathetic but thats the way it is.

Anecdotally my cousin(older than me at around aged 60) who is English and knew he had Irish relatives didn't even know the Irish flag until I told him!!

Fratton Fred

gurramok wrote: »

What is the total including the 10pm news?(and Newsnight)



Yes, they know their history as a Celtic nation and have their own language. They know NI better than the average English person.



No its not. Its often stated here in Boardsland and in real life that some English do not realise Dublin for example is outside the UK and we use our own currency. Yes its pathetic but thats the way it is.

Anecdotally my cousin(older than me at around aged 60) who is English and knew he had Irish relatives didn't even know the Irish flag until I told him!!

As I've said before, the typical statement I hear is "those English are very ignorant about Ireland, I was in Edinburgh the other day and...."

djpbarry

gurramok wrote: »

What is the total including the 10pm news?(and Newsnight)

Yes, they know their history as a Celtic nation and have their own language. They know NI better than the average English person.

No its not. Its often stated here in Boardsland and in real life that some English do not realise Dublin for example is outside the UK and we use our own currency. Yes its pathetic but thats the way it is.

Anecdotally my cousin(older than me at around aged 60) who is English and knew he had Irish relatives didn't even know the Irish flag until I told him!!

Meaningless anecdotes are meaningless.

Espousing your own ignorant (and, let's be honest, prejudiced) beliefs about the English does not make a very strong argument for the English being ignorant.

gurramok

djpbarry wrote: »

Meaningless anecdotes are meaningless.

Espousing your own ignorant (and, let's be honest, prejudiced) beliefs about the English does not make a very strong argument for the English being ignorant.

How meaningless? I've quite a few English relatives mainly of Irish descent but some are more English than Irish as they have no desired connection with here. I'd have a qualified insight into their knowledge as a sample of the populace on Irish affairs including NI.

Jump to conclusions do we? Alot of English are generally ignorant about the Irish question and its not their fault, its their media and also the lack of education on Irish issues in their schools.

Fratton Fred

gurramok wrote: »

How meaningless? I've quite a few English relatives mainly of Irish descent but some are more English than Irish as they have no desired connection with here. I'd have a qualified insight into their knowledge as a sample of the populace on Irish affairs including NI.

Jump to conclusions do we? Alot of English are generally ignorant about the Irish question and its not their fault, its their media and also the lack of education on Irish issues in their schools.

like it or not, Ireland just isn't that important to the English. The average Irish football fan could probably nearly all 92 teams in the English league, an English football fan might know Shamrock rovers and Bohs and that's it.

The English don't watch Irish soaps or Irish news channels or Irish sports. We don't have loads of people who go to the pub just to watch Ireland lose. There aren't people scouring Irish newspapers looking for an excuse to be offended by the Irish, or the odd English actor that might be inadvertently called Irish by the Irish media.

djpbarry

gurramok wrote: »

How meaningless? I've quite a few English relatives mainly of Irish descent but some are more English than Irish as they have no desired connection with here. I'd have a qualified insight into their knowledge as a sample of the populace on Irish affairs including NI.

I've met every single person in the UK and assessed their knowledge of Northern Ireland.

Meaningless anecdotes are meaningless.

gurramok wrote: »

Jump to conclusions do we? Alot of English are generally ignorant about the Irish question...

Lots of Scots and Welsh are too.

Chuck Stone

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The English don't watch Irish soaps or Irish news channels or Irish sports. We don't have loads of people who go to the pub just to watch Ireland lose. There aren't people scouring Irish newspapers looking for an excuse to be offended by the Irish, or the odd English actor that might be inadvertently called Irish by the Irish media.

Nice not so thinly veiled caricature of an Irish person there Fred. I like the monkey-like features you've painted and the Celtic jersey with stout-stains on it. It's a good thing you reminded us that the English are above all that.

Fratton Fred

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Nice not so thinly veiled caricature of an Irish person there Fred. I like the monkey-like features you've painted and the Celtic jersey with stout-stains on it. It's a good thing you reminded us that the English are above all that.

Monkey like Celtic fans? Wtf are you on about?

I was simply thinking of the middle aged well to do gentleman I met in a pub in Dalkey who was getting turned on by Wales beating England and asked me, along with others if I was an English bastard (not actually realising that yes, I am).

England is an obsession amongst a lot of people in this country and not just bar stool republican Celtic fans.

Nice attempt at finding offence though.

Monkey caricatures ffs.

Happyman42

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Monkey like Celtic fans? Wtf are you on about?

I was simply thinking of the middle aged well to do gentleman I met in a pub in Dalkey who was getting turned on by Wales beating England and asked me, along with others if I was an English bastard (not actually realising that yes, I am).

England is an obsession amongst a lot of people in this country and not just bar stool republican Celtic fans.

Nice attempt at finding offence though.

Monkey caricatures ffs.

An opinion based on meeting 'a man in a pub'? :rolleyes:
Don't mistake rivalry with a political outlook. I and any other sporting fan will see the nearest neighbour as a 'rival', especially if they are a supposed powerhouse in that sport. It's normal, and healthy imo.
Go into any English pub when they are playing Germany and you will get the same rivalry, and do please be careful of the company you keep or allow to form your opinions.

Fratton Fred

Happyman42 wrote: »

An opinion based on meeting 'a man in a pub'? :rolleyes:
Don't mistake rivalry with a political outlook. I and any other sporting fan will see the nearest neighbour as a 'rival', especially if they are a supposed powerhouse in that sport. It's normal, and healthy imo.
Go into any English pub when they are playing Germany and you will get the same rivalry, and do please be careful of the company you keep or allow to form your opinions.

Personally I can see the difference between rivalry and obsession.

And in case you hadn't noticed, the team England were playing are actually closer neighbours than England and are the regional powerhouse in that sport.

K-9

gurramok wrote: »

Anecdotally my cousin(older than me at around aged 60) who is English and knew he had Irish relatives didn't even know the Irish flag until I told him!!

Anecdotally, a good few people in the Republic think Donegal is part of Northern Ireland.

gurramok

K-9 wrote: »

Anecdotally, a good few people in the Republic think Donegal is part of Northern Ireland.

That's maybe because of the Northern accent but well they are a bit thick if they think Donegal is a part of NI:)

Some people in Monaghan have a Northern accent, doesn't bother me.

K-9

gurramok wrote: »

That's maybe because of the Northern accent but well they are a bit thick if they think Donegal is a part of NI:)

Some people in Monaghan have a Northern accent, doesn't bother me.

Nah, just a bit ignorant of history, geography, they get a pass!

Loads of people are ignorant of history, geography and current affairs, probably more so in this X Factor generation.

Happyman42

Opinions and perception based on the 'guy down pub' and the 'chronically detached', very helpful.