working outside timetabled hours

ed06

the principal scheduled a meeting with me next week an hour before i actually start school. i stated this was not feasible and instead gave a range of different time frames where i would be available in the school between classes. that did not suit and they know want a valid reason as to why i wont be in school an hour before i begin class!!!!!

teacherhead

ed06 wrote: »

the principal scheduled a meeting with me next week an hour before i actually start school. i stated this was not feasible and instead gave a range of different time frames where i would be available in the school between classes. that did not suit and they know want a valid reason as to why i wont be in school an hour before i begin class!!!!!

Because you have a life maybe! Some principals seem to think you should be in school from 9-4 regardless of timetable.

I wouldn't give them a reason, just tell them that you have things to do.

ed06

thanks teacherhead. surely they have no right to ask why i cannot attend a meeting outside of my scheduled hours.and demand a valid reson for not attending. i have over an hours commute to school and back everyday and work part time so i def not going to make myself available for 9-5!!!!

km79

ed06 wrote: »

thanks teacherhead. surely they have no right to ask why i cannot attend a meeting outside of my scheduled hours.and demand a valid reson for not attending. i have over an hours commute to school and back everyday and work part time so i def not going to make myself available for 9-5!!!!

Are you permanent ?

CK73

In my experience many Principles/Head Teachers assume when you are not in School you are not working, which is total bull. They forget you have families and responsibilities etc. I once worked in a School where they gave a Teacher a contract that forbade her to take paid time off to take care of her child if they were poorly and she was a single parent. Yet in other schools I have worked at they would have welcomed the child in and worked around the problem.

I would have thought it reasonable to expect a Teacher in half an hour before the children arrive to get their class room ready, but certainly not an hour and it is wrong to assume it. Unfortunately they have the power to make or break you and decide what courses you go on, so you have to decide what is most important to you.

ed06

not permanent. work in secondary school sector and dont begin til after small break on the day of the meeting

km79

ed06 wrote: »

thanks teacherhead. surely they have no right to ask why i cannot attend a meeting outside of my scheduled hours.and demand a valid reson for not attending. i have over an hours commute to school and back everyday and work part time so i def not going to make myself available for 9-5!!!!

Are you permanent ?
Sorry just seen you answered this already.
Well I've been in that position. And if I was you of go to the meeting if you want to be back next year. Maybe the meeting is about hours next year ? One meeting or no job next year. I know what I chose ....

ed06

not perm KM but it shouldnt make a diff i dont think

CK73

Omg! What a liberty!!!!

Ok now you need to ask yourself if they would likely write you a reference when you leave and how important is that reference to you. I know it isn't what you should have to worry about, but if you are looking for something regular, then that to me would get me to the meeting and bending if at all possible and if not, then explain that you have prior commitments that can't be changed, as you are of course in the right.

ed06

meeting is not about hours and wont need a ref in a hurry i would imagine as i have part time cid already

km79

ed06 wrote: »

meeting is not about hours and wont need a ref in a hurry i would imagine as i have part time cid already

Fair enough so

CK73

ed06 wrote: »

meeting is not about hours and wont need a ref in a hurry i would imagine as i have part time cid already

I would stick to my guns then personally. Sounds like the Principle takes their staff for granted and is not being reasonable if they can not accommodate the fact that you can't make it at that time.

Maybe offer to do what ever possible in the mean time regarding the subject matter of the meeting, but stick to your guns. You do have rights and you are not employed at that time.

Miss Lockhart

CK73 wrote: »

I would have thought it reasonable to expect a Teacher in half an hour before the children arrive to get their class room ready, but certainly not an hour and it is wrong to assume it.

I don't think it is reasonable at all. Teachers lucky enough to have a classroom can get it ready whenever suits them (between classes or after school). But there are thousands of teachers with no classroom so preparing one is not an issue.

Unfortunately OP I think this is a lose lose situation. You are in the right and you are not required to attend before your timetabled hours start and you have offered alternative times during the day. I mean can this not be done during CP hours?

However, as you are not permanent full time, it is likely that refusing the request will hamper your chances of gaining more hours or security for extra hours. You will have to weigh up the pros and cons yourself.

CK73

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

I don't think it is reasonable at all. Teachers lucky enough to have a classroom can get it ready whenever suits them (between classes or after school). But there are thousands of teachers with no classroom so preparing one is not an issue.

Unfortunately OP I think this is a lose lose situation. You are in the right and you are not required to attend before your timetabled hours start and you have offered alternative times during the day. I mean can this not be done during CP hours?

However, as you are not permanent full time, it is likely that refusing the request will hamper your chances of gaining more hours or security for extra hours. You will have to weigh up the pros and cons yourself.

Admittedly I am coming from a Primary background, where Teaching Assistants are involved, so being there before to prepare, was part of the call, as they needed to be told their daily responsibilities and it was one of the vital parts of the day.

I have no idea how things roll in Secondary, but assume the idea of working obtusely out of normal paid hours would be the same and this sounds obtuse to me. It certainly shouldn't be assumed that they would be there or questioned when they say they can't, but obviously it has happened in this situation.

Tootle

I'm sorry I dont understand. Whats the issue? its a once off one hour meeting?

solerina

If you are making yourself available on many more occasions I think that should be enough...we dont have to be available when ever the principal sees fit...we have to do our job to the best of our ability...if you dont want to be in an hour early then stick to your guns and say no...its really up to you, the principal cant make you come in when you have given plenty of other alternatives.

ethical

Some principals are feeling the heat now regarding the workload due to no new posts etc,and feel that if they are in the school or can be in the school hours before and hours after 'normal' hours that everyone else should be as well.We have had a case where instead of doing 33 CP hours we were handed a sheet with 46 hours on it this year,we had no input whatsoever in drawing it up !! (as is stated in the CP agreement)Some of the teachers are in a vulnerable position and feel that if the principal says 'jump' they will ask 'how high? ,they are so scared of the bullying tactics,the same principal was totally 'the other way ' when a teacher and shown no regard for authority and is now a 'bully' and gets away with it because the staff are scared sh1tless.The union are dragging their feet and are not offering much in the way of a solution!

joebloggs32

ed06 wrote: »

meeting is not about hours and wont need a ref in a hurry i would imagine as i have part time cid already

That won't stop you from redeployment, or what about getting more hours to bump up your CID should they arise. Or how about getting a crappy timetable next year, starting you at 9.00 and finishing you at 4.00 each regardless of how many part time hours you have. It may be easier in the long run to play ball in your case.

By the way I do agree with you that your principal is out of line here, but sometimes the cards are in his/her hand.

On a similar note, this week my principal asked me to do a house call. Now if it I was subbed fine, but this would be after school, and about a 25 minute drive in the wrong direction for me after work. Then try to talk to a student and their family that is not interested when I get there, before heading home with the commute now lengthened.
Luckily I have a 22 hour CID, so I will not be doing it, but I do know that if I was asked to do it a few years ago I probably would have

joebloggs32

ethical wrote: »

Some principals are feeling the heat now regarding the workload due to no new posts etc,and feel that if they are in the school or can be in the school hours before and hours after 'normal' hours that everyone else should be as well.We have had a case where instead of doing 33 CP hours we were handed a sheet with 46 hours on it this year,we had no input whatsoever in drawing it up !! (as is stated in the CP agreement)Some of the teachers are in a vulnerable position and feel that if the principal says 'jump' they will ask 'how high? ,they are so scared of the bullying tactics,the same principal was totally 'the other way ' when a teacher and shown no regard for authority and is now a 'bully' and gets away with it because the staff are scared sh1tless.The union are dragging their feet and are not offering much in the way of a solution!

You are right. The cp hours must be achieved through a process of consultation between management and staff prior to the commencement of the school year. If this is not done then the staff are NOT obliged to work them. This should be pointed out to the principal with the implicit threat that if it happens again, then no one will be doing the hours.

If your shop steward is too weak to do anything about it then contact your area rep.
It is difficult for non permanent staff to stand up to a principal like yours, so this is where it is vital that you and your union colleagues do it together with the help of an area rep or even someone from head office.

RealJohn

ed06 wrote: »

the principal scheduled a meeting with me next week an hour before i actually start school. i stated this was not feasible and instead gave a range of different time frames where i would be available in the school between classes. that did not suit and they know want a valid reason as to why i wont be in school an hour before i begin class!!!!!

Are you actually serious? You're on a part time contract (albeit a CID) and you're whining about having to turn up an hour earlier than usual? If I was your principal, that attitude would cost you an awful lot of goodwill because while you're probably within your rights to say no (though you'd better check your contract to make sure), principals don't tend to want people with the attitude "it's not on my timetable so I'm not doing it". In any other job, if your boss says they want a meeting with you, it's not really a request and not wanting to get up earlier is a pretty poor reason to say no. If you genuinely have a reason, tell them what it is. If you think you're doing it on some sort of principle, grow up. Unless you're happy to stay on your current contract for the rest of your career you should probably stay on the right side of your boss. That sort of attitude gives the rest of us a bad name.

Fizzical

You're totally out of line here, RealJohn.

A full time teacher is just that, available full time. Even so, meetings must be arranged with them at a time that suits all parties.

Part time teachers are paid per hour and are teachers only part of the time so the necessity to arrange suitable times is even more imperative.

Principals that insist on rights over part time teachers' outside lives are an embarrassment to the profession.

RealJohn

The OP isn't really a part-time teacher though, at least not in the true sense. They have a CID on partial hours, ie. full time but not on a full timetable and there is a difference there. I presume they're also paid for the summer. If they were "part time" they wouldn't be.
As such, the school authorities are entitled to expect them to be in school outside of teaching hours from time to time if necessary. Like I said, if there's a good reason that they can't be on this occasion then that's fair enough but again, the school authorities are entitled to an explanation. If the OP's only reason is that they'd rather avoid being inconvenienced then that's not good enough. We're not on work to rule (yet).

byhookorbycrook

As a primary teacher,we do all kinds of things outside of school hours, from meetings with parents (extra ones, not just the annual ones)to sacraments, coaching teams, playing matches, quizzes,taking classes on overnight trips etc. All outside our timetables, but we do it anyhow. Croke Park is eroding some of this good will,however.

Miss Lockhart

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

As a primary teacher,we do all kinds of thnigs outside of school hours, from meetings with parents (extra ones, not just the annual ones)to sacraments, coaching teams, palying matches, quizzes,taking classes on overnight trips etc. All outside our timetables, but we do it anyhow. Croke Park is eroding some of this good will,however.

Secondary teachers do all this too. It doesn't mean we must be in school an hour early at the behest of a principal.

(Edited to add that I didn't put that frowny face at the top of the post and can't get rid of it)

whiteandlight

To be honest the oddest part of this to me is the fact that its an hour before school. I'm in early before school every day but its to prepare for classes. I would much much rather meetings with the principal to be an hour after school, not before. I've never come across a principal looking for someone to be in a meeting at 8am. 4pm, 430pm, 5pm yes

byhookorbycrook

I'd prefer before-because if meeting runs on it has to finish when school starts.

whiteandlight

True I suppose! I'm not a morning person though so I suppose suits me to be after

rainbowtrout

Musicmental85 wrote: »

To be honest the oddest part of this to me is the fact that its an hour before school. I'm in early before school every day but its to prepare for classes. I would much much rather meetings with the principal to be an hour after school, not before. I've never come across a principal looking for someone to be in a meeting at 8am. 4pm, 430pm, 5pm yes

It's not an hour before school though, it's an hour before the OP starts that day. The OP said they start after small break on the day the principal wants to have the meeting. So presumably that's in and around 11am. The principal presumably wants to have the meeting at approximately 10am.

I do think the principal is being a bit stubborn if the OP is available at other times, however if this is on a once off basis I don't think it would kill the OP to be in school for 10am or thereabouts.

whiteandlight

Oh I mis-interpreted. If its within the 9-4 there is no way I would tell my principal I couldn't attend even if I wasn't on until 11.

Actually I can't see myself ever not attending a meeting the principal has scheduled but I'm not CID/permanent so slightly different situation

km79

rainbowtrout wrote: »

It's not an hour before school though, it's an hour before the OP starts that day. The OP said they start after small break on the day the principal wants to have the meeting. So presumably that's in and around 11am. The principal presumably wants to have the meeting at approximately 10am.

I do think the principal is being a bit stubborn if the OP is available at other times, however if this is on a once off basis I don't think it would kill the OP to be in school for 10am or thereabouts.

I misread the initial post too so and I still had advised the OP to attend the meeting. Now I think the OP definitely should !

rainbowtrout

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Oh I mis-interpreted. If its within the 9-4 there is no way I would tell my principal I couldn't attend even if I wasn't on until 11.

Actually I can't see myself ever not attending a meeting the principal has scheduled but I'm not CID/permanent so slightly different situation

Ya, I did too the first time I read it. Also if the OP is on first class on other mornings (9am), it's not a huge ask for them to be in for 10 on a once off basis. Particularly if they haven't given a reason like childcare issues for the reason that they can't meet.

Miss Lockhart

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Ya, I did too the first time I read it. Also if the OP is on first class on other mornings (9am), it's not a huge ask for them to be in for 10 on a once off basis. Particularly if they haven't given a reason like childcare issues for the reason that they can't meet.

Personally I don't think giving any reason is required and I don't think childcare issues should trump the arrangements and commitments of non parents. I think looking for valid reasons is getting away from the issue that the principal is not within their right to require you to attend early.

But like I said, I think the OP would be foolish not to attend.

rainbowtrout

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Personally I don't think giving any reason is required and I don't think childcare issues should trump the arrangements and commitments of non parents. I think looking for valid reasons is getting away from the issue that the principal is not within their right to require you to attend early.

But like I said, I think the OP would be foolish not to attend.

I would agree, I don't have children myself but the OP doesn't appear to have any particular reason for not going in other than they just don't want to go in. Assuming the OP doesn't rock up to the school 2 minutes before their class starts the chances are that they would be knocking around for part of that hour anyway. The OP is perfectly within their rights to refuse to meet, but if it's on a once off basis I think they are cutting their nose off to spite their face in the long term.

Maybe the morning time is easier for the principal as things crop up during the school day which need to be dealt with on the spot (discipline issues etc) so getting the meeting out of the way in the morning is just easier with less chance of being disrupted.

JohnBee

A lot of the attitudes on this thread illustrate the problem with the public sector.

OP get over it, it's a one hour meeting, so what, every extra thing doesn't need to be union approved in life. If you do have to get out of bed an hour early is that really so bad? By the end of the day you will have forgotten about it. I am sure the principle is also doing this on unscheduled time.

And before you all start giving out, I myself am a public sector worker and yes I give many free hours service every week (approx 10).

Fizzical

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I would agree, I don't have children myself but the OP doesn't appear to have any particular reason for not going in other than they just don't want to go in. Assuming the OP doesn't rock up to the school 2 minutes before their class starts the chances are that they would be knocking around for part of that hour anyway. The OP is perfectly within their rights to refuse to meet, but if it's on a once off basis I think they are cutting their nose off to spite their face in the long term.

Maybe the morning time is easier for the principal as things crop up during the school day which need to be dealt with on the spot (discipline issues etc) so getting the meeting out of the way in the morning is just easier with less chance of being disrupted.

The OP is not refusing to meet, on the contrary.

What makes you think it's a once off basis?

The Principal may be putting down a marker and the OP may be well served by arranging a meeting time through negotiation. Respect goes two ways.

rainbowtrout

Fizzical wrote: »

The OP is not refusing to meet, on the contrary.

What makes you think it's a once off basis?

The Principal may be putting down a marker and the OP may be well served by arranging a meeting time through negotiation. Respect goes two ways.

Well the OP refused to meet the principal at the time he/she requested. Of course I don't know if it's a once off basis, the OP didn't specify, but at the same time they didn't state that this thing is a regular occurrence in their school , nor did they post again to refute myself and the other posters who have assumed that it's a once off basis.

I honestly don't see why this is such a big issue. The principal may not be setting down a marker, they may simply be viewing the school day as 9-4 as making the most of the fact that the OP is off before break on this particular day. Maybe they are being awkward but the OP hasn't indicated if this is the way other teachers are treated or if they have been treated like this in the past.

Teachers don't require that many meetings with management over the course of the year. Surely going in for 10 isn't too much to ask?

teacherhead

teacherhead wrote: »

Because you have a life maybe! Some principals seem to think you should be in school from 9-4 regardless of timetable.

I wouldn't give them a reason, just tell them that you have things to do.

Just reading back over posts, I had attempted to edit that one yesterday, but the mobile site is a biaych.

What I was going to say anyway was that you do need to keep a sense of perspective in all of these things too.

ake into account the tone in which the meeting was requested, was it suggested or demanded? When they asked for a reason was it just a natural reaction to you saying you couldn't be in or was it aggressive?

Like I said in another post it's very hard to give reliable advice on half of a one-sided story.

That said a reason should not need to be given, once you are willing to meet them at some stage, even if it means offering to meet in the morning a few weeks down the line. It cuts both ways.

Juniorhurler

I think too many people here are assuming too much. We are not sure if it is at 8 or at 10. We are not sure of the tone of the request and we are not sure of the people skills of the principal.

Personally, I would be trying to make the meeting if at all possible and I am a permanent teacher with almost as long of service to the school as my principal. The difference is that I know my principal is reasonable, approachable and very accommodating. Knowing this I can say that I would try to accommodate him in return as we are a large school and he is busy in a way that I will never understand. If we knew all of this about the op's situation we might be able to comment. The last principal we had would not have been extended the same courtesy by me as he ruled by diktat.

Caiseoipe19

ed06 wrote: »

the principal scheduled a meeting with me next week an hour before i actually start school...

ed06 wrote: »

not permanent. work in secondary school sector and dont begin til after small break on the day of the meeting

Juniorhurler wrote: »

I think too many people here are assuming too much. We are not sure if it is at 8 or at 10. We are not sure of the tone of the request and we are not sure of the people skills of the principal.

While we don't know the tone, I think it's fairly clear that it's after 9am anyways, that the principal is looking to meet them at. I personally don't think it's much to ask to come in an hour early. If it was a case that they weren't working at all that day, I'd have more sympathy.

doc_17

I would go the meeting. There are times when I wanted to meet the principal about different things and he always accomodated. If he ever asked me I would give the same accomodation back.

unknowngirl!!

I'd go to the meeting. It's a one off and you never know the day of the hour when you'll need the principle to accommodate you.

CK73

unknowngirl!! wrote: »

I'd go to the meeting. It's a one off and you never know the day of the hour when you'll need the principle to accommodate you.

How do we know it is a one off and not one of many more to come? How do we know that the Principle with bend over backwards to accommodate them? This again is all summising.

I think if we had a little more knowledge it would be easier to make a fair appraisal of the siutation, but the more I hear the less I feel I actually know.

Mardy Bum

It's not as if the meeting is at 7 in the morning. I would meet the Principal without hesitation if I was in a situation where he could make a decision about my future.

evolving_doors

Christ on a bike this thread is becoming like that "I found a safe" thread on AH....Am I the only one who is curious as to what this meeting is actually about.

BTW if they bring in the compulsory unpaid s & s for all teachers, then the op's arguement for not wanting to be there at 9am will seem petty in the extreme.