Priests & Seminary in 1870s?

montgo

Hi,
A cousin, born in Dec. 1857 in Limerick immigrated to USA ("Republic" 1881) according to his passport application.

So I am wondering if anyone knows how many years of study to become a priest back then? And how much would it have cost the family to send him to the seminary, presumably Thurles?

Thanks

pedroeibar1

montgo wrote: »

So I am wondering if anyone knows how many years of study to become a priest back then? And how much would it have cost the family to send him to the seminary, presumably Thurles?

We touched on this before –

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Seminaries were fee-paying until after the mid 1800’s. Only the wealthy “strong farmers” or merchants could afford the cash costs involved in educating one of their sons in the priesthood with annual fees of £25 for tuition and a similar amount for board & lodging over a sustained period of about 7 years. Although Maynooth College as the national seminary was endowed by the State, all students had to pay their own living expenses and it was not until after the Famine that grants became available. (Priest, Politics & Society in post-Famine Ireland’ , James O’Shea - is the book, ‘tho it concentrates on Tipperary 1850 - 1891. )

Possibly Thurles, but note that many Tipperary seminarians studied at St. John's College in Waterford (where fees rose from £26 in 1826 to £30 p.a. in the 1870's) As a rule Colleges like St Patricks and St Johns were more expensive than Maynooth, where the State grant was increased in 1845 from £8,928 to £26,360. In the 1850-1891 period 52% of the Tipp priesthood had studied at Maynooth.

After 1845 in Maynooth every Divinity student received £20 which covered his fee but most had to pay their living expenses. Prior to that date most students started as fee-paying but as the progressed they were grant-aided.

If you want to post the name or PM me TODAY I can check the above book to see if he gets a mention, I will be away from it from tomorrow.

montgo

Many thanks for those great details.

At what age did they begin studying for the priesthood? In this instance, Patrick was 24 years of age when he immigrated so he would have been only 16 years old if the study period was 7years. Why would he have been sent to the USA immediately after ordination or was this was an option that young priests could have chosen?

In early 1900s, a number of his cousins studied in St. Patricks Thurles, so that is why I assumed that he might have gone to Thurles.

pedroeibar1

montgo wrote: »

In early 1900s, a number of his cousins studied in St. Patricks Thurles, so that is why I assumed that he might have gone to Thurles.

It might be a correct assumption, as family ties with a college usually were strong.

I’m no authority on ‘priests of the 19th c. and have picked up the bits I have from reading about a few relatives (not all priests) mentioned in the above book.

From what I have read, it was not unusual for young boys to attend seminary schools, often as young as 12. I recall when at school in Dublin seeing long lines of young teenage seminarians out for their daily walk, so the practice continued until 1970-ish at least. Not all continued on to study for the priesthood, but for those who remained it would have put them firmly on the ladder, so ordination at 24 would seem quite possible. I also remember from somewhere in the book that their training was very limited, rigid and conformity was encouraged; a Lord Somebody stated at the time that their training suited them to be Catholic Priests and nothing else.

Why your man went to the US I don't know. One of my wife’s priest relatives went out to the US in the 1800’s and the story in her family is that many of his fellow Tipp people went there (West Coast) as a result of the Famine and his Bishop encouraged him to go to minister them. Another went to Australia for the same reason (that one is documented.)
Good luck with the research.
P.

L1011

There were schools seen as seminary feeders even when not actually seminarys themselves at that - Minor Seminary being the name I think (according to my father, who went to one - but didn't become a priest clearly!). So its possible that the training period could end at a younger age had you gone to a minor seminary

Same thing existed in the US, have a relative who ended up being Bishop of Pittsburgh who was in a seminary when he was ~13 or so.

pedroeibar1

A couple of links that give some pertinent info.

http://www.stbrendanskillarney.com/Brief-History-of-St-Brendan-s-28-history.htm

http://www.stbrendanskillarney.com/AIMS-OF-FOUNDERS-22-history.htm

montgo

Thanks for the info on the seminary schools. That would explain how my cousin could have been ordained by the age of 24.

So for each year that he attended the seminary or the school, the cost would have £25+ per year plus the cost of board/lodging, a substantial amount back then. I guess his family would have been able to afford it but many young men from poorer families could not consider the priesthood unless assistance or a grant was available.

Would costs be similar for those joining religious orders ie brothers & nuns? I had 3 sisters from 1 family joining the nuns in late '80s. Maybe families made a one off payment?

Many thanks

annieoburns

My grandfather born 1890 was sent to a seminary school at age 12 years. He lived outside a small village in Tipperary. I did not realise that families would have to pay toward the education of these boys 'chosen' for training in seminaries. The family had a small farm so little money.

It was the De La Salle order and located in Waterford where boys from all over Ireland came ( see census details). He stayed there til age 18 years when he left as a trained primary teacher to work in N Ireland. He then is living in a Christian Brother household and working as a teacher. He stayed there 4 years until 'promoted' to work in a Christian Brother institution in England. He only lasts there a short time and leaves the religious organisation to become a lay teacher for rest of his life. He married and lived away from Ireland for the rest of his life. I would like to find out more about the brothers who did not become priests. It would seem that he was a brother with the Christian Brother order to have been employed by them for 5 years.

pedroeibar1

montgo wrote: »

So for each year that he attended the seminary or the school, the cost would have £25+ per year plus the cost of board/lodging, a substantial amount back then. I guess his family would have been able to afford it but many young men from poorer families could not consider the priesthood unless assistance or a grant was available.

Would costs be similar for those joining religious orders ie brothers & nuns? I had 3 sisters from 1 family joining the nuns in late '80s. Maybe families made a one off payment?

Many thanks

Up to the Famine the priesthood was for the sons of wealthy farmers/tradesmen/professionals. There were some bursaries or scholarships pre-Famine, so if an entrant had a vocation and the intelligence to make it through he usually received some subsidy. At the seminary schools not all boys were boarders, the day boys paid, but considerably less.

As far as I know the nuns/novices were described as 'brides of Christ' and on entering the convent they made a single payment, i.e. their dowry. There also was a pecking order, with those nuns who paid a dowry having more status and those who entered 'on the cheap' ended up primarily as domestic servants in the convent.

montgo

Very informative, thanks.

Another cousin joined the De la Salle order around 1920. In his case he attended a De la Sale secondary school. His immediate family had no money but he was top of class so I would imagine that the De la Salle would have been very happy to have him join the order.

Still another cousin b1891 must have joined Christian Brothers while very young as he was listed as a teacher at the CBS, Synge St for the 1911 Census. So he may have trained as a teacher there, I'm not sure. He also went to teach in N. Ireland (CBS). Subsequently, he left the order but continued to teach in the same school until he retired.

Did families push their children towards religious life? I'm surprised to find so many priests, nuns & brothers among my ancestors.

annieoburns

It was deemed a great honour to have a member of the family in religious life. Families were large and farms sizes too small to cater for all offspring so seen as a good career move. It would be the brightest child that would be selected and encouraged by teachers and parish priest.