Your opinion.

wylam

Hi guys,

I posted yesterday(in the wrong forum) giving the perspective of a door person in cork city.http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=83707351#post83707351 We get alot of bad press and my post was an attempt to add our voice to a very one sided argument.I had some good feed back from a couple of people so thank you very much for that.I did not get a chance to post a reply to the constructive questions put to me as the thread was locked for some reason.But as i read the the other "trash posts". I took issue with a couple of the posters who seem to be just here to try and put people down and ridicule people for their own entertainment.One of the reply's which read "I think bouncers are worse than war criminals" took the biscuit. And this came from a long established member of the forum.And other useless posts that also came from long standing or "high post count" members.Is this what someone is expect when they put up a post or have an opinion about something?Put up a post and then be ridiculed and bullied by the forums regular posters?

It is a disgrace that people can carry on in this fashion, but being a door man this is the kinda thing i deal with nearly every day its just when they have alcohol on board its ten times worse.I think its an issue we have with society today.The reason bouncers are more laid back in other countries and cities is because they dont have to deal with the same type of people we do.Door man policies and door man culture will obiviously be a direct reflection on the type of people that we come into contact with.

I'd like some actual opinions on this, not just a load of rubbish posts by people trying to boost their post count in an attempt to boost their low self esteem.I wonder how long it will be before they lock this post, i fel a ban coming on lol.

biko

First!

MrFrisp

First of all...Yes,,you did post in the wrong Forum...You were never going to get a decent reply on there. Nobody ever does.

As for Doormen,,like other people/groups in Our society today,,it only takes a small few to give a bad name to the rest.
But some are total plonkers..
This excuse of "You have had enough already" is a laugh. Friend of Mine finished work late one night a few weeks ago...Got out of his car right outside the door of the club,,and the "Doormen" said "Not tonight,,you've had enough" .:eek: And he gets out of the car in front of them. Mental.

Personally,,I/We gave up going to places that have doormen,,in particular one dive in town that would not let Us in because We have a few tattoos..

They can stick their custom..We take it elsewhere.
.

sozbox

Read the other thread, very interesting.

One thing I don't get though is 'the 3 mandatory questions'. I'm not going to answer 3 stupid questions just to be given the 'opportunity' to drop 100EUR in a place. I've seen sober people being stopped for being drunk and people after 12 pints get into places with a smile even after the 3 questions so clearly it's a waste of time.

MrFrisp

Jason1984 wrote: »

Read the other thread, very interesting.

One thing I don't get though is 'the 3 mandatory questions'. I'm not going to answer 3 stupid questions just to be given the 'opportunity' to drop 100EUR in a place. I've seen sober people being stopped for being drunk and people after 12 pints get into places with a smile even after the 3 questions so clearly it's a waste of time.

+1 .. ^^

Anthony O Brien

A had an incident in a late bar in town the other night which ruined a very good night for me, to make a long story short some security men are great at there jobs and others should not be aloud deal with public and I think it sums up bouncers in cork

I was doing something which I regularly do in there but they only recently changed the rules and did not put up any signs to say so, a bouncer came towards me very aggressively asked me what I was doing, I explained to him because he did not understand, he then told me to get out, I asked to see someone in charge, they came over and couldnt have been more courteous I also spoke to another doorman in charge, again he was an absolute gentleman and told me about the rule, I went back to the first aggressive bouncer and tried to explain to him that I didnt know the bar had introduced a new rule, when I tried talking to him he stopped me a said f*ck off I dont want to hear it to which I replied what? he then pulled out his phone and started texting and told me to "f*ck off from around me will you". I was totally shocked by all this, asked him for his name, was again told to f*ck off so I took his number on his arm band, and got the bar manager to write down his name and the time, I will be visiting the bar tomorrow to speak with the owner

Joe Hart

They serve a purpose I suppose and that is to open the door for me when I enter somewhere. They tend to be filled from the ranks of various fighting clubs and from my experience of these places they are filled with people who have issues with violence.

Joe Hart

Jason1984 wrote: »

Read the other thread, very interesting.

One thing I don't get though is 'the 3 mandatory questions'. I'm not going to answer 3 stupid questions just to be given the 'opportunity' to drop 100EUR in a place. I've seen sober people being stopped for being drunk and people after 12 pints get into places with a smile even after the 3 questions so clearly it's a waste of time.

If you went to a restaurant how would you feel if the Matrie D started quizzing you on food as a test to see if you were fit to eat in their establishment.

wylam

@Anthony, i cant speak for every bouncer just myself .Where i work if a bouncer used that kind of language to any customer in any context or under any circumstances they would be shown the door immediatly without question.But in the end you did exactly the right thing, get times, names, story straight and descriptions .And i hope you get some satisfaction from it.

With reference to the 3 questions, I myself use these only on people i am not 100% sure about.As people walk towards me i grade them yes, no, and maybe. (yes) walk right in while i hold the door open and greet them. (no) are given a reason why they are being refused which every bouncer is required to give. (maybe) are asked the 3 questions.Some of them are let in with the same courtesy as the (yes) group some are turned away and given a reason.

This is the way doors should be run and with newer door men starting everyday and the old guard being pushed out or retiring hopefully things will get a bit better from our side. but i fear if society doesn't move on and mature a bit and realise that just because you're out for the night and have some drink in you doesn't men you can do what you please and take on the world.

wylam

@Joe, completely different situations, we are dealing with people who have alcohol and or drugs in them, a combination which leads to violence poor judgement and diminished sense of responsibility for their actions and can pose a threat to the law abiding customers already inside.Its a bit different than going and ordering a steak

sozbox

wylam wrote: »

@Anthony, i cant speak for every bouncer just myself .Where i work if a bouncer used that kind of language to any customer in any context or under any circumstances they would be shown the door immediatly without question.But in the end you did exactly the right thing, get times, names, story straight and descriptions .And i hope you get some satisfaction from it.

With reference to the 3 questions, I myself use these only on people i am not 100% sure about.As people walk towards me i grade them yes, no, and maybe. (yes) walk right in while i hold the door open and greet them. (no) are given a reason why they are being refused which every bouncer is required to give. (maybe) are asked the 3 questions.Some of them are let in with the same courtesy as the (yes) group some are turned away and given a reason.

This is the way doors should be run and with newer door men starting everyday and the old guard being pushed out or retiring hopefully things will get a bit better from our side. but i fear if society doesn't move on and mature a bit and realise that just because you're out for the night and have some drink in you doesn't men you can do what you please and take on the world.

Thanks for the reply, great to see it from the other side, but I still don't understand. Are you trying to see if the person is drunk or their accent or what? I've always wondered!

My point being, if I have 12 pints and I get asked one of those magic questions, I have no problem responding as if I've had 3 drinks hence the 'test' is meaningless.

bladebrew

I think a few bouncers give the lot a bad name, I won't name places but I recently was given restaurant recomendations by a doorman in cork after I couldn't get a table inside, very helpful and treated me like a human,
Another pub in cork I simply gave up going after being refused numerous times, finish work at 6 head home have a bottle of beer head to town get the usual sorry you have had too much while a friend who had been drinking cans all day simply walked past them:mad:
It's things like that that annoy the hell out of me!

wylam

@jason, well if you can respond in normal response time and conduct yourself in an orderly manner there is no reason why you should not be left in. weather you have 1 or 10 pints in you is not in question and people always lie about how much they have had anyway.When people are drunk they respond slower hand eye co-ordination is a effected and the eyes cannot focus . The questions just give us time to asses these factors and help us decide if we think you are in a fit condition to enter. A common mistake people make is thinking that when we say you cant come in you had too much drink, they think we are saying that if you go in you will cause trouble, but there are other factors to think about.The main reason for refusal due to high intoxication levels is will the person be a danger to them selves or others.They could fall and hurt them selves, drop glasses, bump into or knock other people over, spill drinks on people etc.the first question to be asked will be "why was he left in in the first place". By the time we get in to see whats happened all hell could have broken loose, which is where the other question of innocent people being blamed comes up.

sozbox

wylam wrote: »

@jason, well if you can respond in normal response time and conduct yourself in an orderly manner there is no reason why you should not be left in. weather you have 1 or 10 pints in you is not in question and people always lie about how much they have had anyway.When people are drunk they respond slower hand eye co-ordination is a effected and the eyes cannot focus . The questions just give us time to asses these factors and help us decide if we think you are in a fit condition to enter. A common mistake people make is thinking that when we say you cant come in you had too much drink, they think we are saying that if you go in you will cause trouble, but there are other factors to think about.The main reason for refusal due to high intoxication levels is will the person be a danger to them selves or others.They could fall and hurt them selves, drop glasses, bump into or knock other people over, spill drinks on people etc.the first question to be asked will be "why was he left in in the first place". By the time we get in to see whats happened all hell could have broken loose, which is where the other question of innocent people being blamed comes up.

Thanks, point taken, but is there any chance the questions could be less intrusive, I mean I'll get those 3 questions when I get home to the missus!

A fella working a door in Cork a few years back used ask for the same reasons but the questions would be less pointed. e.g 'Do you prefer chicken or beef?'

Same result, but less likely to cause a negative response from the customer.

mean gene

Nervous people sober never get in.
Drunk confident people get in.
Most bouncers cant tell the difference.

Joe Hart

wylam wrote: »

@Joe, completely different situations, we are dealing with people who have alcohol and or drugs in them, a combination which leads to violence poor judgement and diminished sense of responsibility for their actions and can pose a threat to the law abiding customers already inside.Its a bit different than going and ordering a steak

It might be a different situaton in the limited outlook you have in the world. For me as a consumer they are very similar situations. I'm going out to spend money on food/drink and enjoying some company. Any place that treats me like a potential scumbag won't be getting my custom.

Herb Powell

I'll be quite honest about this. I've met some great, legends of bouncers (the guys outside the Franciscan Well are always sound, and courteous). However, I generally avoid places with bouncers like the plague. If there's a doorman on duty, it seriously puts me off going in, because I don't like dealing with most of them. Maybe it's because I'm young and look it, but I feel like I'm often treated like I'm up to no good.

The most annoying seems to be the Crane Lane. Normally, it's a 21+ venue, and I know this. But occasionally, they have events on that are open to 18+. However the bouncers either ignore this, or are never informed. In fact I was arguing with them for a good 5 minutes over a gig that I had a ticket for (they didn't want to let me in, even though it was clearly stated as an 18+ event on the ticket, AND ON POSTERS FOR THE GIG ON THE DOORS BEHIND THEM). Only for the manager appearing and informing them that I was actually grand because I had a ticket, I think I would have been there a lot longer!

I really don't understand it, because I don't even own a tracksuit, never mind wearing one on a night out, and every single time I have had to deal with bouncers I have been 100% sober. There's definitely power-tripping involved, which is infuriating.

SusieBlue

I can totally see your perspective OP, I work in a nightclub myself and never realised how much utter shít ye have to put up with. I would have been the first to say I wasn't a fan of most Cork bouncers before starting working in the club but now I understand that there's a lot of pressure from management and its the security staff that have to do the dirty work.

I have a new found respect for security staff that I probably didn't have before. The lads I work with are fantastic, aren't out to ruin anyone's night, they just want a trouble free night.

OP, as you no doubt know many people don't see things from other peoples point of view, many respectable folk can't understand why a bouncer is asking them anything, it's like they expect you to know at a glance are they suitable patrons for the pub/club.

So what if a doorman asks a question or two?

People seem unable to make the link between how they've had a good night in an establishment and the job the lads on the door are doing

Balmed Out

Never really had a problem with Cork bouncers other then that the dress code could be a bit on the conservative side but I think thats probably not their decision and its something I havent seen as much of in the last 5 years or so either.
One thing is I only ever saw one actual brawl in a Cork pub (Reardons-where people could be inside for several hours after passing a bouncer) yet from a couple of nights out in each of the other Irish cities (and dont get me started on certain towns) it seems to be a much more common occurance elsewhere.

Aka Ishur

I don't think bouncers in Cork are bad at all, most are sensible. They don't seem to get too much trouble where I go out. Sure there's even a fan page on facebook for one of them!

wylam

@gene, Not true at all, if a bouncer is on a door then that means that they have quite a lot of experience and had to work their way from the less important positions on the premises.You are not just put on a door on your first day.If someone walks up to the door drunk, confident or not they should not be aloud in.I cant see how a person who is nervous would not be aloud in?And most bouncers can tell the difference seen as a nervous person will not show any similar traits of a drunk person.If a person shows excessive signs of nervousness this might be mistaken for them trying to hide something i.e have taken drugs and or carrying drugs.

@jason , ill do an experiment this weekend for ya and ill change my questions to less intrusive ones and make em more like were just having a chat and ill post next monday if i find there are any interesting results.

wylam

@akaIshur, yeah i bet there are quite a few fan pages for us

token101

wylam wrote: »

I'd like some actual opinions on this, not just a load of rubbish posts by people trying to boost their post count in an attempt to boost their low self esteem.

I think you didn't got the humour in After Hours, but here's an honest, forthright opinion: with few exceptions, almost very bouncer I've met in Cork is a pumped up scumbag MMA wannabe with **** tattoos, waiting for someone to 'step out of line' so they can abuse their 'power' and beat the piss out of someone to 'show them'. For every one of these cases, a hundred go unreported because people are too drunk to remember or don't want the hassle.

"Mandatory questions"? "Fit the profile"? Is this an episode of Criminal Minds? If someone's stumbling, slurring and obviously drunk, refuse them, but trying to play amateur psychologist as a doorman is you being an idiot and what gets all the bad press. I'm on a night out to relax; it's not on the tip of my tongue exactly how many I've had and I'm not sure what the guy was wearing who served me in the Old Oak, so let me in or I'll go somewhere hard up who'll take my money.

wylam

@herb, i have had this problem myself , where there is a breakdown in communication between management and the door staff it happens sometimes and unavoidable.

@Joe hart, I see your point . But you seem to be viewing the questions as an attack on you.If you were in a pub or club that had no security and a group of lads are in there jumping around pulling their pant's down, knocking drinks, bumping into people and starting fights, do you deal with it yourself?We've all seen this while out in town.I know from my own experience before i was a bouncer that i'd much prefer to see some bouncers come and deal with it, than go up to them myself and run the risk of getting glassed, bottled or hospitalised. If the price i have to pay for this kind of piece of mind is a couple of simple questions before i enter then i'd gladly pay it.It's a bit harsh to say i have a limited out look on the world, I have a job that requires me to reduce the risk to the paying customers and staff of the premises.In the eyes of the law he who creates the risk must manage the risk.The risk being supplying alcohol to people, the only way to manage it is through observation and control of entry.

hoodwinked

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I can totally see your perspective OP, I work in a nightclub myself and never realised how much utter shít ye have to put up with. I would have been the first to say I wasn't a fan of most Cork bouncers before starting working in the club but now I understand that there's a lot of pressure from management and its the security staff that have to do the dirty work.

I have a new found respect for security staff that I probably didn't have before. The lads I work with are fantastic, aren't out to ruin anyone's night, they just want a trouble free night.

ive never worked in a club but having been sober on many nights out, i've seen it all, in fact i found when you get chatting to them most bouncers in Cork are really nice guys,

one thing i found from being friends with a good few of them, none of them want to refuse people (unless you have pissed them off on a previous night :P )

but if you start getting all up in their faces or shouting abuse at them because "they said im too drunk and im ****ing sober like" then they really don't want you in that club in the first place,if you blow up at a simple no, then chances are you will blow up if someone accidentally spills your drink.

too often i've seen them say no to someone who's then responded with something like "thank you anyway guys, maybe next time" only for them to respond "go on in".

wylam

@token101, I never once mentioned anything about door men playing amateur psychologist's.And how is a door man suppose to hear you slur your words if he doesn't ask you any questions?If im not paying attention to you as you walk towards me how will i see you stumbling around?And explain to me what obviously drunk is in your opinion?If you are on a night out to relax, do you enjoy drunk people spilling drinks on you, bumping in to you stumbling around or some scumbag shoving a glass in you face because he thinks your looking at his girlfriend?Are these the type of people you enjoy spending a relaxing night with, because without the guy at the door who you refer to as some kind of crazed lunatic this would be a common sight in the city.And what did you base you figures on when you said for every one report 100 go unreported? were these figures made up or do you actually have some fact behind what you are saying?

Joe Hart

token101 wrote: »

I think you didn't got the humour in After Hours, but here's an honest, forthright opinion: with few exceptions, almost very bouncer I've met in Cork is a pumped up scumbag MMA wannabe with **** tattoos, waiting for someone to 'step out of line' so they can abuse their 'power' and beat the piss out of someone to 'show them'. For every one of these cases, a hundred go unreported because people are too drunk to remember or don't want the hassle.

"Mandatory questions"? "Fit the profile"? Is this an episode of Criminal Minds? If someone's stumbling, slurring and obviously drunk, refuse them, but trying to play amateur psychologist as a doorman is you being an idiot and what gets all the bad press. I'm on a night out to relax; it's not on the tip of my tongue exactly how many I've had and I'm not sure what the guy was wearing who served me in the Old Oak, so let me in or I'll go somewhere hard up who'll take my money.

That guy was murdered by a few bouncers and for what reason? It makes me sick. You are dead right about the type of person usually involved. Big egos and generally bad eggs who enjoy violent displays.

I don't require private security. If somebody is causing a crime then call the Gardai who are trained and accountable.

token101

token101 wrote: »

............. but here's an honest, forthright opinion: with few exceptions, almost very bouncer I've met in Cork is a pumped up scumbag MMA wannabe with **** tattoos, waiting for someone to 'step out of line' so they can abuse their 'power' and beat the piss out of someone to 'show them'..........................

Strange view, most of them couldn't drop a hard sh1te and to be fair to them they know it
They also know that's not their function so happy out.

wylam

@Joe hart. Yes that was an utter disgrace and im sure its not the only case where someone has payed a high price for what was probably a minor infraction.

The two men were refused at the door of sidetraks night club as they were deemed to have "had enough". It was later told in court that they had about 15 pints of larger each before trying to gain entry to the club.When they were told they were not coming in the victim told the bouncers that he was gonna "bust their heads", he then proceeded to punch one of the bouncers in the face.He was then accosted by 3 of the door staff which restrained him , the type of restraint used was a factor in his death.As far as i remember the bouncers were not prosecuted for his death.

This was 11 years ago and things have changed since then.The PSA was set up in 2004 to regulate door staff, a 100 hour course which provides door staff with the basic tools they need to work in the industry.This course must passed before you receive your license.If you work for a good company or premises this is only the start of your training.Private courses in safe restraint methods is a must along with conflict resolution and people skills.

As for your you last statement, of call the gardai if there is a crime lol.I witnessed a young man being brutally attacked by 3 men and 1 women last year.I phoned the gardai and made sure to get discriptions of the people involved which included 2 of their names.10 mins later the young man was not moving on the ground so the gang left , only to return in a car a few mins later.They then proceeded to beat him again with a metal bar, i got the reg of the car and photographs of the driver and some of the people involved.It was 20 mins after my first phone call to the gardai when i decided to ring again "yeah yeah we'll send someone around".In the mean time the door staff in the premises he had been drinking at managed to drag him inside and give him first aid. the whole time he was inside the main agressor paced up and down out side with a tyre iron in his hand waiting for him to emerge.30 mins after my first phone call to the gardai two of them arrived at the top of the street.I went up to them and proceeded to tell them what happened in detail , i had it all in my note book and had already burned the cctv to disc ready to go.When i finished speaking the sgt. said to me "I couldn't be less interested" and he turned in the opposite direction and walked away.The door men had to restrain the man holding the tyre iron while they put the injured man into a taxi and sent him to hospital.In the whole of cork city on any given fri or sat night there are only 7 gardai.Good luck waiting 30 mins for the gardai to come to your aid.

SusieBlue

If there was a bit of consideration and understanding of what door staff go through on a nightly basis around Cork, and a little compassion shown, there would be far better relations between customers and security staff.

Customers seem to forget that the reason they are having a good night in a club is because the security staff aren't letting in the overly intoxicated people who are either ready to vomit or start a fight. Who wants a drunk girl falling all over the place, nearly falling on top of herself and others? Who wants a punch in the face for accidentally bumping against the man who has had too many and needs to leave?

If your legless, and you fall down the stairs and break your neck, or smash a bottle off someones head, or try to rob the bar, or get aggressive with staff, guess who gets the blame? Whoever let him/her in at the door, that's who. Most bouncers would rather err on the side of caution and not let someone in if they weren't 100% certain and rightly so.

The boys (and girls) I work with have to put up with so much rubbish. One of the lads at the door refused someone once, cue him whipping out a needle and stabbing my friend with it. He ended up in hospital. One of the girls (a tiny little thing, 18 years old and employed to search female customers but we were so busy she was dealing with drunk customers and taking them outside) got such a kick into the stomach off a pissed off man that she ended up with a cracked rib, for no other reason than telling him that drinking a naggin he had sneaked in was unacceptable.

Its bad where I work and I work in one of the most reputable and high end (if I say so myself) clubs in town. I can only imagine what its like in the clubs with reputations for being scummy.

I say it all the time: You can't reason with someone whose had a drink.

What happened in Sidetrax was awful and an absolute tragedy, and I'm not trying to condone it at all, but if some drunk fella came up and said he was gonna smash your buddy's face in, and then did so, would adrenaline not kick in and you'd do all you could do defend your friend?

The Gards have no interest in what goes on in nightclubs. A couple of weeks ago a customer viscously assaulted his girlfriend outside the front door, and even though they had no legal obligation to stop what was happening, the security staff couldn't bear the sight of it and dragged the man off her, and called an ambulance for the girl. It took the Gards over an hour to show up because they were dealing with a nuisance call elsewhere in town.

People seem to be forgetting that the bouncers they're slating could be (and usually are) the ones saving their asses when a scumbag starts on them for no reason on the dancefloor.