Potential targets for the Luftwaffe in Eire, 1940-41

Jawgap

BostonB wrote: »

I've never heard the term Armed recce for WWII air operations before. I always though it was a concept that came later. I've mainly heard of it used in Vietnam.

It was - Gooderson discusses it at length in his book (Air power at the battlefront: allied close air support in Europe, 1943-45), there's a whole chapter on "The Cost Effectiveness of Close Air Support: A Comparison with Armed Reconnaisance" but sure what would he know, anybody can teach air power history at Kings College

As an aside, Gooderson also discusses how the British Army were crying out for the Air Ministry and RAF to develop an equivalent of the Stuka, but the RAF (and Portal in particular) resisted it because they realised that it was of limited application and required conditions of near air supremacy to be successful.

HQ 2nd TAF, regarded armed recce as "the most important of all tactical air force work because of the restriction it imposes on enemy movement."

..and for those more inclined towards wikipedia, the following comes from the article on close air support.....

"Armed reconnaissance was a major feature of XIX TAC close air support, as the rapid advance left Patton's Southern flank open. Such was the close nature of cooperation between the Third Army and XIX TAC that Patton actually counted on XIX TAC to guard his flanks. This close air support from XIX TAC was thus undoubtedly a key factor in the rapid advance and success of Patton's Third Army."

Stovepipe

@BostonB, have a look at the disastrous Wellington "armed reconnaisance" to Wilhelmshaven. Essentially, it means sticking your nose over an enemy's border to have a look around (and possibly bomb targets of opportunity), in the hope that if you are opposed, you will have the means to defend yourself and get home safely.
Another point with regard to range is that all pre-war designs were short-ranged as the typical patrol sortie was regarded as being of no more than about 90 minutes endurance. Fuel capacities in fighters and light bombers was small, there was little or no provision for external fuel tanks, most airforces didn't even have external tanks of any kind and the concept of single-engined fighters reaching out like the Mustang to Berlin was unknown. There were a lot of other concepts, such as decent aircrew armour, engine and systems armour,self-sealing fuel tanks, strong defensive weaponry and so on that took the heat of battle to evolve.
With regard to pure dive-bombing, it certainly appealed to a lot of people, giving rise to the Dauntless, Aichi D3, Skua, Curtiss' Helldivers and others, so the concept was well-regarded and well-tried before WW 2. The Dauntless is one example where a tactical machine had a strategic effect, by sinking vital carriers. I would also say that the Stuka had an effect in the Med that was above a mere local tactical gain, as it frightened the shoite out of the RN in a theatre that they considered their own.

regards
Stovepipe

BostonB

Jawgap wrote: »

It was - Gooderson discusses it at length in his book (Air power at the battlefront: allied close air support in Europe, 1943-45), there's a whole chapter on "The Cost Effectiveness of Close Air Support: A Comparison with Armed Reconnaisance" but sure what would he know, anybody can teach air power history at Kings College ..

Whats with the "what would he know" ???

I was just saying I've not heard it used for WWII missions before. It would be like saying a CAP of Spitfires etc. I usually read autobiography's perhaps it just never came up. I would associate that kind of mission more with "fighter sweep".

BostonB

Stovepipe wrote: »

@BostonB, have a look at the disastrous Wellington "armed reconnaisance" to Wilhelmshaven. Essentially, it means sticking your nose over an enemy's border to have a look around (and possibly bomb targets of opportunity), in the hope that if you are opposed, you will have the means to defend yourself and get home safely....

Not getting much?

https://www.google.ie/search?q=%22armed+reconnaisance%22+to+Wilhelmshaven&aq=f&oq=%22armed+reconnaisance%22+to+Wilhelmshaven&aqs=chrome.0.57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I did find this. Which isn't "armed reconnaissance" Maybe you mean a different raid.

http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/17026-first-raf-bombing-raid-of-the-war/#entry195547

Jawgap

BostonB wrote: »

Whats with the "what would he know" ???

I was just saying I've not heard it used for WWII missions before. It would be like saying a CAP of Spitfires etc. Was it in use in the day?

It wasn't aimed at you;)

Yes, it was a contemporary term in 2TAF, anyway. Not sure about the US tactical air forces, but possibly given that the doctrine for both US and Commonwealth TAFs derived from a common source.

Jawgap

BostonB wrote: »

Not getting much?

https://www.google.ie/search?q=%22armed+reconnaisance%22+to+Wilhelmshaven&aq=f&oq=%22armed+reconnaisance%22+to+Wilhelmshaven&aqs=chrome.0.57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I did find this. Which isn't "armed reconnaissance" Maybe you mean a different raid.

http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/17026-first-raf-bombing-raid-of-the-war/#entry195547

try this

BostonB

Thanks. Theres my reading for the next while....

Bog Man 1

My Father was in the Canadian Artillery the 23 Canadian field regiment . He was wounded in Normandy in August 1944 .
When Hostilities were over he was involved in writing the Canadian Military history . As part of his research he came across papers detailing Hitlers plans for Carlow .
The administration for the region was to be in the Royal Hotel on Dublin street and the motor pool was to be in (Walls ?)Garage at the corner of Granby Row and Kilkenny Road . I think (Wall ?)may have owned Clogrennan limestone Quarry and may have been a blueshirt .
There was lots of Germans living in Carlow that had come over to build the Sugar Factory so there would have been lots of local knowledge .

tac foley

Stovepipe wrote: »

I would also say that the Stuka had an effect in the Med that was above a mere local tactical gain, as it frightened the shoite out of the RN in a theatre that they considered their own. regards Stovepipe

The Stuka frightened the sh1te out of everybody, as my late Uncle Micky [who was on the other side during WW2] used to tell me. After Crete he never trusted ANYBODY wearing the 'lazy vulture' badge on their uniform.

tac