The Heaslip Captaincy

.ak

jm08 wrote: »

If they don't want to become a figure of fun, I'd suggest they keep their fun private.

You're suggesting now that the team are making him a figure of fun? Do you really think they care?

awec

Photos dressed as superman / headphones etc have to rank up there amongst the worst possible reason to think someone is a poor captain.

I think I've even seen reference to his haircut ffs.

.ak

awec wrote: »

Photos dressed as superman / headphones etc have to rank up there amongst the worst possible reason to think someone is a poor captain.

I think I've even seen reference to his haircut ffs.

Or colored boots. Or wearing a blue scrumcap for Ireland! :eek:

Dravokivich

jm08 wrote: »

They all use twitter - but its how they use it what counts. I just can't imagine Brian posting photos of himself dressed up as superman (I think it was! - certainly tights were involved).

The scandal... that's on par with sexually humiliating a hotel maid.... :mad:

jm08

.ak wrote: »

As I said, you don't know that. None of us do. Heaslip puts his body on the line and regularly is in the top stats. I don't know if he's 'inspiring' or not, but I'd say it's more than likely looked up to in the squad because of his skill/commitment.

I think its frowned on criticising another member of your team in public. Certainly Ronan O'Gara got criticised for publicly criticising Geordan Murphy for missing that tackle against France.

Lots of players put their body on the line and have great stats (O'Brien, Healy for example), why are they not made captain then?

.ak

jm08 wrote: »

I think its frowned on criticising another member of your team in public. Certainly Ronan O'Gara got criticised for publicly criticising Geordan Murphy for missing that tackle against France.

Lots of players put their body on the line and have great stats (O'Brien, Healy for example), why are they not made captain then?

Honestly I think Heaslip is the best candidate out of those. Healy is a beast but he even says his game revolves around controlled aggression. That's not captain material. You need someone with a level head. Honestly can't see O'Brien interested in it, he's a fairly humble guy who I imagine likes to stay quiet and just get the job done. I've never seen him shouting the odds on the pitch like Heaslip does.

sydthebeat

this says enough about the man for me
http://www.rugbyworld.com/videos/jamie-heaslips-charity-work/


i dont give a crap if he wears superman PJs or wears beats earphones... that shows he is not a dour sod and that he has good taste in hifi equipment.

Grimebox

.ak wrote: »

Or colored boots. Or wearing a blue scrumcap for Ireland! :eek:

It was highlighted in Tommy Bowe's body check program on RTE that colored boots were useful when stepping around players as its easier to "lie" with your feet... so they're actually a good thing :eek:

jm08

awec wrote: »

Photos dressed as superman / headphones etc have to rank up there amongst the worst possible reason to think someone is a poor captain.

I think I've even seen reference to his haircut ffs.

I said I think he lacks gravitas. Dressing up in tights indicates a small bit lacking in seriousness/dignity for the role (thats if you think a captain needs to have gravitas).

desertcircus

twinytwo wrote: »

Im sorry but thats bull****... anyone can clear a ruck. His carrying is up there with both SOB and POM but he is making significantly less yards. Heaslip is the key man off almost every scrum...there are no rucks "to clear out" there is no excuse for him to not get over the gainline. Having a backrow that is not going to make yards is like having a SH that cant pass... its pointless.

Because his role in the team has been to take on bad ball and clean it up, and to clear out rucks. That's what he does, and given that it's in clear opposition to both past form for Ireland and current form for Leinster, it's odd to assume it's not under instruction. And the number of scrums that result in clean ball for Ireland's pack is vanishingly small compared to the number of rucks that happen per game.

Pudsy33

jm08 wrote: »

I said I think he lacks gravitas. Dressing up in tights indicates a small bit lacking in seriousness/dignity for the role (thats if you think a captain needs to have gravitas).

If he was playing in tights then maybe you have a point, but otherwise this is ridiculous nonsense.

jm08

sydthebeat wrote: »

this says enough about the man for me
http://www.rugbyworld.com/videos/jamie-heaslips-charity-work/

i dont give a crap if he wears superman PJs or wears beats earphones... that shows he is not a dour sod and that he has good taste in hifi equipment.

So that would make DOC ideal captaincy material - on the Board of Unicef Ireland and always good for a laugh. I think everyone was completely shocked when he was made mid-week captain on the Lions Tour once because he isn't a dour sod. Actually DOC is an excellent interviewee as well.

Podge_irl

jm08 wrote: »

I said I think he lacks gravitas. Dressing up in tights indicates a small bit lacking in seriousness/dignity for the role (thats if you think a captain needs to have gravitas).

I assume you've never seen any of the Living With the Lions docus so. Cause the players get up to that kind of crap with great regularity.

Of all the reasons to criticise Heaslip (and there are a few genuine ones) this has got to be the stupidest. I'd like to see him make more metres of the back of the scrum and be a bit more aggressive going into contact with the ball, but I think he has been average rather than bad this 6N. He's clearly used to clean up bad ball and isn't really expected to be making big breaks - that's up to SOB in the tight and POM in the wide open spaces.

jm08

Pudsy33 wrote: »

If he was playing in tights then maybe you have a point, but otherwise this is ridiculous nonsense.

Its quite a normal sight to see players wearing tights (just not superman ones though!)

jm08

Podge_irl wrote: »

I assume you've never seen any of the Living With the Lions docus so. Cause the players get up to that kind of crap with great regularity.

I don't recall any of the Lions captains dressing up - lots of the players did though.

rrpc

jm08 wrote: »

So everyone seems to think. Lots of comments about it being a mistake to take the captaincy from Brian.

There were no such comments when Brian lost the captaincy to Leo (or indeed when POC got the captaincy of the Lions instead of Brian).

BOD gave up his captaincy of Leinster voluntarily. He said at the time that he couldn't continue with both captaincy roles at the same time and give the same effort to them and on the pitch.

rrpc

jm08 wrote: »

I don't recall any of the Lions captains dressing up - lots of the players did though.

I don't recall any current Ireland captains doing it either

molloyjh

rrpc wrote: »

I don't recall any current Ireland captains doing it either

This whole thing is just ridiculous. What Jamie did or didn't do before being captain that was or was not common place for players who were or weren't captains is utterly irrelevant. If he dressed up as Davina McCall for a Halloween party later this year it still means absolutely nothing. Certain people will cling to any piss poor excuse to have a go. The best thing people here can do is leave them off. It's not like Jamie gives a monkeys what they have to say, or that his captaincy is under threat because a few keyboard warriors aren't happy with his headphones/hair/private life. Padding out these piss poor excuses with pure waffle may sound good to some ears but it's really not worth the time or effort.

sydthebeat

jm08 wrote: »

So that would make DOC ideal captaincy material - on the Board of Unicef Ireland and always good for a laugh. I think everyone was completely shocked when he was made mid-week captain on the Lions Tour once because he isn't a dour sod. Actually DOC is an excellent interviewee as well.

and if DOC was holding down a position on the starting 15 he definitely would be a consideration.


.... but he isnt.....

jm08

rrpc wrote: »

BOD gave up his captaincy of Leinster voluntarily. He said at the time that he couldn't continue with both captaincy roles at the same time and give the same effort to them and on the pitch.

Which would have made it even harder for Leo as it would appear that he only got the captaincy because BOD didn't want it.

jm08

sydthebeat wrote: »

and if DOC was holding down a position on the starting 15 he definitely would be a consideration.

.... but he isnt.....

No he wouldn't. I think that Lions tour was the only time DOC captained a team (and its not as if he has been injured a lot and the Munster/Ireland captains were not).

Podge_irl

O'Driscoll lost the Leinster captaincy to Corrigan I think, not Cullen.

If the other players don't respect Heaslip because of what he puts up on Twitter I think it reflects more poorly on them then on him. Of course, I don't for a second think that's true.

ktulu123

This thread really hurts my head...

jamiedav2011

Seriously lads, why even bother responding any more? The troll is strong with this one.
Tights ffs! It'd be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.

Teferi

And jm08 ruins yet another thread.

I covered his/her opinion in my opening comment...

Teferi wrote: »

Before a ball had even been kicked criticisms were coming from certain quarters regarding the appointment - Have they been proven right and have their questions been answered? Are his headphones too gaudy? Does his latest haircut look ridiculous? Are his steaks really horsemeat? Let's be honest, their criticism was based on their dislike for the man and little more. I think we can discount their opinion.

It really should be ignored.

Podge_irl

I think its difficult to judge Heaslip's captaincy amidst the general malaise that affected the team. He has to bear some responsibility for that of course and I think a new coach may well move the captaincy but the whole thing has been massively overplayed. Moving it back to BOD is pointless at this stage, even if he plays another year. POC is only a stop gap option, particularly with his injury history. Best is the most obvious choice, but I think his position may come under threat from Strauss if his throwing doesn't improve.

jm08

Podge_irl wrote: »

O'Driscoll lost the Leinster captaincy to Corrigan I think, not Cullen.

Not that it matters much, but Corrigan retired in 2006. Cullen was made captain in 2008. Accrding to his wiki "On 26 August 2008, he was named as Leinster captain following Brian O'Driscoll stepping down from the role meaning he has captained most of the teams he has played on."

If the other players don't respect Heaslip because of what he puts up on Twitter I think it reflects more poorly on them then on him. Of course, I don't for a second think that's true.

Its not just about his team mates though. Its what the opposition think of him as well. Just as career advisors/sports pschologists would advise you if going to a particular difficult meeting, job interview, to help you relax imagine the interviewer to be sitting in their underpants. The opposition wouldn't even have to use their imagination with Jamie!

jm08

Teferi wrote: »

And jm08 ruins yet another thread.

I covered his/her opinion in my opening comment...

It really should be ignored.

For clarification purposes, I have no problem with the colour of Heaslip's boots or what headphones he wears.

Buer

Podge_irl wrote: »

O'Driscoll lost the Leinster captaincy to Corrigan I think, not Cullen.

Cullen - BOD - Corrigan - Toland

Chris Pim was captain for a few years and at the onset of the HEC but it bounced around a bit until Toland had it for a couple of years. Reggie had it for ages then until he was no longer a fixture in the team.

desertcircus

So Heaslip shouldn't use Twitter because opposing players can look at pictures of him in a Halloween costume. This is a whole other universe of ridiculous. Try a Google Image search for Sergio Parisse and see how long it takes to find an equally silly photo.

Podge_irl

Buer wrote: »

Cullen - BOD - Corrigan - Toland

Chris Pim was captain for a few years and at the onset of the HEC but it bounced around a bit until Toland had it for a couple of years. Reggie had it for ages then until he was no longer a fixture in the team.

I knew BOD and Corrigan were consecutive captains, but I obviously got them the wrong way round in my head.

jm08

desertcircus wrote: »

So Heaslip shouldn't use Twitter because opposing players can look at pictures of him in a Halloween costume. This is a whole other universe of ridiculous. Try a Google Image search for Sergio Parisse and see how long it takes to find an equally silly photo.

Once again, its how you use twitter. Brian O'Driscoll has about a million followers and he manages to retain some gravitas.

As far as I know, Parisse is Italian, not Irish. If you showed photos of Roy Keane wearing a tutu, your comment might have been relevant.

WinnyThePoo

This is ridiculous, this thread is ridiculous. Stick with the man.

desertcircus

desertcircus wrote: »

So Heaslip shouldn't use Twitter because opposing players can look at pictures of him in a Halloween costume. This is a whole other universe of ridiculous. Try a Google Image search for Sergio Parisse and see how long it takes to find an equally silly photo.

Actually, I'll save you a little time. Google Sergio Parisse Dieux du Stade and see how the results compare. Be warned, though: the results are fairly NSFW.

razorblunt

I've been pretty vocal about his tenure as captain BUT at the same time he should be allowed grow into the role, next season, we more than likely won't have POC or BOD around and then he can begin to grow into the role. Taking it off him after one campaign would be a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face. Let's see what next year brings for him.

jm08

desertcircus wrote: »

Actually, I'll save you a little time. Google Sergio Parisse Dieux du Stade and see how the results compare. Be warned, though: the results are fairly NSFW.

Compare some of the promotional photos/pre match entertainment of the Stade team and Leinster, and I'd say there would be a noticable difference (though Leinster did have the Naked Cowboy on one occasion as pre-match entertainment . Didn't get him back though and curiously no one talks about it!

sydthebeat

jm08 wrote: »

.......

As far as I know, Parisse is Italian, not Irish. If you showed photos of Roy Keane wearing a tutu, your comment might have been relevant.

theres so much wrong with this is laughable.

you admonish valid points with the ridiculous. Just because parisse doesn't play for ireland somehow makes him immune from the points YOU are trying to make about captaincy?

desertcircus

jm08 wrote: »

Once again, its how you use twitter. Brian O'Driscoll has about a million followers and he manages to retain some gravitas.

As far as I know, Parisse is Italian, not Irish. If you showed photos of Roy Keane wearing a tutu, your comment might have been relevant.

Because ridiculous photos of a successful Test captain no. 8 are irrelevant to whether ridiculous photos impact upon the succes as Test captain of a no. 8. You're trolling; I'm out.

John_C

jm08 wrote: »

If you showed photos of Roy Keane wearing a tutu, your comment might have been relevant.

It's at the end of this video:
http://www.behance.net/gallery/Walkers-launch-ad-Saint-Patricks-Day/1276419

Podge_irl

I think it took BOD quite a while to settle into the captaincy and he came into an Ireland playing a lot better in general.

thomond2006

This micro-analysis of Heaslip is such BS, it's getting to the old ROG/Sexton levels of nonsense. Who gives a **** what his off-field life is like. Good on him if he wants actual stuff to do that has nothing to do with rugby. Shall we start bitching about Healy/DJ Church or John Hayes' farming?

I'm more concerned about his form on the field. There was a time when he was Ireland's equivalent of Picamoles. I can't read his mind, but if he needed a kick up the arse to get his form back then he's got one now. Hopefully it won't take missing a Lions Tour when he's in his prime for him to rediscover his form.

jm08

sydthebeat wrote: »

theres so much wrong with this is laughable.

you admonish valid points with the ridiculous. Just because parisse doesn't play for ireland somehow makes him immune from the points YOU are trying to make about captaincy?

Parisse comes from a completely different culture to Britain & Ireland (ie, the Statue of David would not be allowed on public display here in Ireland as it is in Italy).

Its hardly as if the Italian team (or Stade) win all round them as well.

Note I suggested Roy Keane rather than Robbie Keane (who I could well imagine wearing a tutu) as an alternative.

jm08

thomond2006 wrote: »

This micro-analysis of Heaslip is such BS, it's getting to the old ROG/Sexton levels of nonsense. Who gives a **** what his off-field life is like. Good on him if he wants actual stuff to do that has nothing to do with rugby. Shall we start bitching about Healy/DJ Church or John Hayes' farming?

I'm more concerned about his form on the field. There was a time when he was Ireland's equivalent of Picamoles. I can't read his mind, but if he needed a kick up the arse to get his form back then he's got one now. Hopefully it won't take missing a Lions Tour when he's in prime for him to rediscover his form.

No one cares what his off field activities are like - they just reflect a certain lack of seriousness that you would expect to find in your captain.


Farming is a serious business (but that doesn't mean he would make a good captain).

sydthebeat

jm08 wrote: »

......... the Statue of David would not be allowed on public display here in Ireland as it is in Italy)..........

:eek:

and with that..... im out.

thomond2006

@jm08, don't waste your time replying to me. (I'm genuinely not trying to be nasty.)

d-gal

thomond2006 wrote: »

This micro-analysis of Heaslip is such BS, it's getting to the old ROG/Sexton levels of nonsense. Who gives a **** what his off-field life is like. Good on him if he wants actual stuff to do that has nothing to do with rugby. Shall we start bitching about Healy/DJ Church or John Hayes' farming?

I'm more concerned about his form on the field. There was a time when he was Ireland's equivalent of Picamoles. I can't read his mind, but if he needed a kick up the arse to get his form back then he's got one now. Hopefully it won't take missing a Lions Tour when he's in his prime for him to rediscover his form.

100%. Couldn't care less what he does in his time off the field.
His form concerns, captains are supposed to have a guaranteed spot on the field. He doesn't have that now, especially when Ferris comes back. POM and SOB were better throughout the tournament than heaslip. He was probably the worst 8 of the tournament as well.

Oh and fwiw, will everyone stop defending Heaslip with comments like 'only coz Hook said it' or 'you must hate him personally'. People can have criticism to players without hating them or following Hook ffs.

RoundBox11

jm08 wrote: »

No one cares what his off field activities are like - they just reflect a certain lack of seriousness that you would expect to find in your captain.


Farming is a serious business (but that doesn't mean he would make a good captain).

So in order to be captain, one of the main requirements is that you are 100% serious, 100% of the time...

Tox56

d-gal wrote: »

Oh and fwiw, will everyone stop defending Heaslip with comments like 'only coz Hook said it' or 'you must hate him personally'. People can have criticism to players without hating them or following Hook ffs.

Of course they can, but it's amazing how many people actually do resort to the 'Hookisms' and the headphones and the flashy boots when criticising Heaslip.

The Peoples Captain

All of the focus being put on Heaslip's off-field persona allows the crux of the matter to be lost within a sea of straw-men. Like Heaslip or not, he should only be judged by his on-field performances. Those on-field performances have not been good enough.

Over the course of the Six Nations he has been our least effective backrow; he's one of the many senior players who had a disappointing tournament. He is still a good backrower who does the basics well, but the specialist roles of an 8 have been farmed off to SOB and POM. He should not be guaranteed his place in the side, and he doesn't display the required leadership qualities of a captain. He's still only 29 and should be coming into his prime, but he looks to be slowing down if anything. A lot of excuses have been made about his changed role in the side, but his role has changed because he is no longer an adequate carrier; a massive deficiency for any 8. He has very rarely outperformed his opposite number in the Six Nations since 2009.

Deciding who else should be captain is also very difficult. If the role had to be taken from the declining BOD, Best would have been most people's choice, but he has had a bad Six Nations. Kearney would be another option, but he has been equally unimpressive. SOB is guaranteed his place in the side and was our best performer, but he doesn't come off as a leader and is liable to give away silly penalties. Ryan is a left-field option that I think would be a decent short-term choice. He is currently guaranteed his place, one of our better performers and looks to be an on-field leader.

In all honesty, there aren't any obvious choices. BOD should have held on the to captaincy because of this. If POC comes back strongly for Munster, he is easily the best choice for 1/2 years until someone better steps up.

Suasdaguna1

New coach, new start, new capt. ?