Cyprus rejects demands

kevin65

Phoebas wrote: »

The Cypriot banking system is in a hole because of overexposure to the Greek economy and because they allowed their banks to get too big by taking in far too much in deposits (many dodgy) from Russia. The Cypriots are primarily responsible for their own problems, but the EU are obviously willing to help them out.

The terms are directly related to the size of the bailout and the prospect of them being able to repay it - it doesn't make any sense to loan them money that they can't possibly repay - hence the requirement that they raise some of their own money from their own banks.

This is where I'm a bit confused. If the banks took in all of this Russian money and there is money in the banks from people's savings, then there shouldn't be a big liquidity issue for the banks? If you take money from the savings accounts in the banks then are you not just robbing Peter to pay Paul?

Tzar Chasm

on the topic of precedent, hasnt one already been set when our govt stuck their hands into the private pensions of the citizens to fund a Job for Martin Macaleese.

that was no less thievery than this cypriot maneouver yet very few people kicked up a fuss about that here

Phoebas

kevin65 wrote: »

This is where I'm a bit confused. If the banks took in all of this Russian money and there is money in the banks from people's savings, then there shouldn't be a big liquidity issue for the banks? If you take money from the savings accounts in the banks then are you not just robbing Peter to pay Paul?

*The money is gone. It was lost (to a great extent) due to Cypriot banks lending into the Greek economy - loans that won't ever be paid back.
It would have been manageable if only the Cypriot banks didn't take in all that Russian money (and lose it in Greece), making their banks unsustainably large.
The tax on savings is really just the haircut that depositors are being forced to take.



* Contains generalisations

kevin65

Phoebas wrote: »

*The money is gone. It was lost (to a great extent) due to Cypriot banks lending into the Greek economy - loans that won't ever be paid back.
It would have been manageable if only the Cypriot banks didn't take in all that Russian money (and lose it in Greece), making their banks unsustainably large.
The tax on savings is really just the haircut that depositors are being forced to take.



* Contains generalisations

Ah, gotcha. Thanks.:)

oppenheimer1

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I seriously hope there is a run.
The sooner this thing melts down, the sooner we design a new, better monetary system instead of desperately trying to plug gaping holes in the current, totally unsustainable setup we have today.

What do you mean you "hope there is a run"?? You do realise that if ther is a run on the banks, people will lose the majority of their savings. No government can afford to guarantee every account to the tune of 100k. So you're looking at everyone losing their deposits of governments nationalising the banking system at a massive cost.

Collapse of the banking system is only hoped by people who have no idea how the system works, or social arsonists. Clearly no shortage of either on boards.ie

KyussBishop

Steve O wrote: »

Glad this hasn't went through, it would set one of the most ridiculous and dangerous precedents the banking system has ever seen.

Unfortunately, the precedent is still set even if Cyprus strike it down, because the EU has already shown they are willing to dip into deposits, as a condition for bailouts.

mfceiling

When they talk of bondholders finally losing money, i presume this is like me gambling on a horse tomorrow and it losing?

Would paddy power give me my money back? Doubt it.

Maudi

wishwashwoo wrote: »

The guy on sky news was right Germany lost the last 2 wars now there conducting a Third World War with the economy they need to be put back in there box and quick.

i recall reading somewhere that the germans were behind all six previous wars..not to be trusted the krauts.

Chucky the tree

mfceiling wrote: »

When they talk of bondholders finally losing money, i presume this is like me gambling on a horse tomorrow and it losing?

Would paddy power give me my money back? Doubt it.

No. But then again this issue has little to do with bondholders so not sure the point of it. Unless it's a ran againt Paddy Power in which case gambling forum might be a better place.

clairefontaine

If anyone should know what imposing crippling reparations on debt can lead to, it's the Germans.

Shame they forgot.

Cuddlesworth

clairefontaine wrote: »

If anyone should know what imposing crippling reparations on debt can lead to, it's the Germans.

Shame they forgot.

Sweet Jesus.

Cyprus needs money. Their banks are bankrupt, their Government doesn't have the money to stop them going under. If they go under, the cut on deposits will be far greater then 6% for all.

The EU has offered 10 billion on the condition that Cyprus comes up with the other 8 billion, of which a large portion is going to come from questionable Russian deposits.

This is because the 18 billion needed to bail them out is a unsustainable debt for the country and its people.

So to be very clear on this, the EU(note, not the Germans) want Cyprus to have a sustainable debt and to partially bail themselves out, in a similar vein to what we did with the Pension Reserve Fund.

Can we cut the Germany = Hitler Rhetoric. Cyprus loaned far to much to Greece. If anybody should have been aware of how bad it was in Greece financially, Cyprus should have been top of the list.

woodoo

I think Edna Kenny has a plan to help the Cypriots. He is going to offer up some of the irish taxpayers money to plug the shortfall. It will be named the Cypriot Solidarity Levy., he knows we won't object.

hatrickpatrick

Nika Bolokov wrote: »

Shame on Ireland.

The cowardice of our leaders has sold the next generation into debt slavery.

I never thought I would write two sentences like that in my life but the past 4 years have totally changed my perspective.

Fair play to Cyprus, they have some bottle.

100% agreed. Absolutely sickened to see other nations showing balls where Ireland bent over and pulled its pants down. :mad:

Celly Smunt

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

100% agreed. Absolutely sickened to see other nations showing balls where Ireland bent over and pulled its pants down. :mad:

And what did you do about it?

Courtesy Flush

Fair play to them. At least they wont take it lying down, like we do

KyussBishop

Interesting speculation as to Cyprus's bargaining power:
http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2013/03/cyprus-versus-the-eustapo-a-mischievious-idea

Gatling

If there is 30billion in Russian deposits sitting in the banks feck if anybody actually cares where it came from ,
Allow the Cypriots to wash the money then impose a once off we cleaned your cash tax on the 30 billion

hatrickpatrick

pmcmahon wrote: »

And what did you do about it?

I protested, y'know, while so many others were telling us we were all responsible for Sean Fitzpatrick's fraud and that we should just bend over. :mad:

ejmaztec

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I seriously hope there is a run.
The sooner this thing melts down, the sooner we design a new, better monetary system instead of desperately trying to plug gaping holes in the current, totally unsustainable setup we have today.

If you think that things are bad now, they'll be a thousand times worse if there is a meltdown, and it will take decades before it's rectified. Forcing a meltdown is suicide.

Mycroft H

Ilik Urgee wrote: »

Did the British Military fly €1 million in cash to their troops in case they wanted to withdraw funds? Or did I pick that bit up wrong?

Didn't hear wrong.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21847013

thebaz

let Cyrprus float off on its own , with its Russian low tax money - and see what happens

if your broke in life, you have feck all bargaining Power, when looking for cash to survive

Firefox11

Courtesy Flush wrote: »

Fair play to them. At least they wont take it lying down, like we do

At least when im lying down i know that the cash and credit cards in my wallet still work.;)

Yakult

Is there anything to be said for saying another mass?

rhamster

Yakult wrote: »

Is there anything to be said for saying another mass?

Don't like to be a doubting Thomas here or anything but I wish God would hurry up with the second coming and all because no point holding back any longer.Surely we could do with the next Messiah in our midsts pretty darn soon for a bit of leadership.

DryCleanOnly

rhamster wrote: »

Don't like to be a doubting Thomas here or anything but I wish God would hurry up with the second coming and all because no point holding back any longer.Surely we could do with the next Messiah in our midsts pretty darn soon for a bit of leadership.

No

Ruudi_Mentari

But will they reject diamonds.

handpicked, by me off the shores of the azores and presented in a tasteful alligator skin briefcase

hatrickpatrick

ejmaztec wrote: »

If you think that things are bad now, they'll be a thousand times worse if there is a meltdown, and it will take decades before it's rectified. Forcing a meltdown is suicide.

Why is this exactly? Can you actually explain that?
Our currency is a fiat currency. It's backed up by absolutely nothing whatsoever. Bitcoin for example is as legitimate a currency as the Euro or the dollar.

Moving away from a world in which banks and for profit institutions govern money supply can only be a good thing. The transition will be messy, but the aftermath would be far better than what we have now.

If the real world parameters of production (supply, demand, skills) haven't changed, neither should quality of life. It makes no sense. Money is an artificial concept created to facilitate trade, and right now it's not working. Instead of changing how we trade, why the hell aren't we changing the tool we use to trade instead?

hatrickpatrick

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

What do you mean you "hope there is a run"?? You do realise that if ther is a run on the banks, people will lose the majority of their savings. No government can afford to guarantee every account to the tune of 100k. So you're looking at everyone losing their deposits of governments nationalising the banking system at a massive cost.

Collapse of the banking system is only hoped by people who have no idea how the system works, or social arsonists. Clearly no shortage of either on boards.ie

The entire concept of money needs to be totally redesigned and that's not going to happen unless the current system falls apart.
The idea that we have the raw material, skills, and technology to grow food, build things etc and that the ONLY reason we're not doing it is because we've lost control of our artificial trading system is absolute lunacy. The era in which all currency is created as debt by a central bank needs to end, and it won't end without a collapse, because there are far too many elites out there with a vested interest in keeping things the way they are.

Am I a "social arsonist" by claiming that if I have the ability to grow crops in a field (supply) and there are others out there who want to trade it (demand) we should be able to do this without having to say "hang on, we need this artificial concept from a bank first and right now the bank won't play ball so I guess I trade no crops and the people out there starve"?

Honestly, I don't see why this seems to be such a hard concept to grasp. The only limits on trade should be actual physical real world factors. Availability of materials, climate, workforce, whatever.

If your car dies because you're using the wrong kind of petrol, you don't just say "fair enough I'll never drive again", you throw out the petrol and try a different kind, right?

conorhal

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Why is this exactly? Can you actually explain that?
Our currency is a fiat currency. It's backed up by absolutely nothing whatsoever. Bitcoin for example is as legitimate a currency as the Euro or the dollar.

Moving away from a world in which banks and for profit institutions govern money supply can only be a good thing. The transition will be messy, but the aftermath would be far better than what we have now.

If the real world parameters of production (supply, demand, skills) haven't changed, neither should quality of life. It makes no sense. Money is an artificial concept created to facilitate trade, and right now it's not working. Instead of changing how we trade, why the hell aren't we changing the tool we use to trade instead?

That's why I'm converting all my money into Tesco Clubcard points!

hatrickpatrick

conorhal wrote: »

That's why I'm converting all my money into Tesco Clubcard points!

I know this is a joke post, but can you explain how exactly such points are any less legitimate than a currency? The only difference is in who issues them and where they can be spent, which are factors based purely on agreement. If I owned a Dunnes Stores there would be nothing preventing me from accepting tesco vouchers and paying my staff with them.
All currency is valueless and works because everyone agrees to use it as representative of the value of what's being traded. That system is not working now.

The solution is obviously to change the method of trade. What we're doing instead of adjusting how much we trade based on this artificial maths, even if it means we waste good food because we can't sell it, and people go hungry because they can't buy it.

Something is obviously wrong with the system if it's possible to have a surplus of actual supply and yet quality of life is going down.

numbnutz

The article below is even more of an eye opener!!:eek:
http://www.golemxiv.co.uk/2013/03/plunderball-the-new-euro-banking-game/

steddyeddy

What happens if the banks did fail? Isn't that the spirit of capitalism? The successful prosper and the incompetent fail?

Shenshen

So now what?
Are they going to be bought by Russia? As that seems to be what they're hoping for?

And if they are, what will their position within the EU be? I personally dislike the thought of an EU member state being more or less owned by the great Russian puppet masters...

catallus

oppenheimer1

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The entire concept of money needs to be totally redesigned and that's not going to happen unless the current system falls apart.
The idea that we have the raw material, skills, and technology to grow food, build things etc and that the ONLY reason we're not doing it is because we've lost control of our artificial trading system is absolute lunacy. The era in which all currency is created as debt by a central bank needs to end, and it won't end without a collapse, because there are far too many elites out there with a vested interest in keeping things the way they are.

Am I a "social arsonist" by claiming that if I have the ability to grow crops in a field (supply) and there are others out there who want to trade it (demand) we should be able to do this without having to say "hang on, we need this artificial concept from a bank first and right now the bank won't play ball so I guess I trade no crops and the people out there starve"?

Honestly, I don't see why this seems to be such a hard concept to grasp. The only limits on trade should be actual physical real world factors. Availability of materials, climate, workforce, whatever.

If your car dies because you're using the wrong kind of petrol, you don't just say "fair enough I'll never drive again", you throw out the petrol and try a different kind, right?

No I consider your argument to amount to social arson, considering you want to see the wealth of the nation destroyed in a banking collapse. You do understand that ordinary people i.e. savers will lose all their savings. Forget about government guarantees - they are worthless in such situations. Not just savings that would be lost, but the current accounts of business that pay wages would disappear. Debts of course would remain though. A banking collapse would quickly bring the country to a halt and the nation would be in a state of utter paralysis for a minimum of months. Those hit the hardest would be those whose wealth is tied up in their banks. The richest with other assets would be hurt too, but would survive.

The idea of rebuilding the system in a fairer way has its merits, but reform should be sensible and not done in a way that amounts to essentially burning down the edifice and rebuilding it with the charred remains.

hatrickpatrick

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

No I consider your argument to amount to social arson, considering you want to see the wealth of the nation destroyed in a banking collapse. You do understand that ordinary people i.e. savers will lose all their savings. Forget about government guarantees - they are worthless in such situations. Not just savings that would be lost, but the current accounts of business that pay wages would disappear. Debts of course would remain though. A banking collapse would quickly bring the country to a halt and the nation would be in a state of utter paralysis for a minimum of months. Those hit the hardest would be those whose wealth is tied up in their banks. The richest with other assets would be hurt too, but would survive.

The idea of rebuilding the system in a fairer way has its merits, but reform should be sensible and not done in a way that amounts to essentially burning down the edifice and rebuilding it with the charred remains.

We would still have our skills, our raw materials, our need for food, electricity and so on. Again, let's take the example of tesco vouchers above - how are they any less legitimate than euros or dollars? All three have one thing in common - they are totally worthless and are only deemed to have value by common consensus.

Those months would indeed he hellish and chaotic, but after that? We could create a proper monetary system without any power bottlenecks or artificial "scarcity". The word scarcity is in quotes because right now there's no actual scarcity - we have a surplus of a lot of the things we need, we just have no way to trade them because our currency is not working.
I for one would be willing to live through such a revolution if we came out the other side of it with a sensible trade system. And I don't see any other way for it to happen - there are too many powerful vested interests who are gaining from the current system to allow this to take place any other way.

Chucky the tree

Who would be in charge of making these club points?

oppenheimer1

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

We would still have our skills, our raw materials, our need for food, electricity and so on. Again, let's take the example of tesco vouchers above - how are they any less legitimate than euros or dollars? All three have one thing in common - they are totally worthless and are only deemed to have value by common consensus.

Those months would indeed he hellish and chaotic, but after that? We could create a proper monetary system without any power bottlenecks or artificial "scarcity". The word scarcity is in quotes because right now there's no actual scarcity - we have a surplus of a lot of the things we need, we just have no way to trade them because our currency is not working.
I for one would be willing to live through such a revolution if we came out the other side of it with a sensible trade system. And I don't see any other way for it to happen - there are too many powerful vested interests who are gaining from the current system to allow this to take place any other way.

We import 70% of our food and 90% of our energy. I don't think the accept Tesco vouchers on the commodity markets.

If anything the currency is working for things like trade. What's not working are the banks who are not lending to good borrowers.

You might be willing to live through the revolution you desire. However I wouldn't want to an many people wouldn't have the means to. An all out general strike for more than 3 days would lead to immediate deaths - there would be no drinking water in the cities for example.

BTW everything is worthless unless society deems it to be valuable.

the purple tin

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Why is this exactly? Can you actually explain that?
Our currency is a fiat currency. It's backed up by absolutely nothing whatsoever. Bitcoin for example is as legitimate a currency as the Euro or the dollar.

Moving away from a world in which banks and for profit institutions govern money supply can only be a good thing. The transition will be messy, but the aftermath would be far better than what we have now.

If the real world parameters of production (supply, demand, skills) haven't changed, neither should quality of life. It makes no sense. Money is an artificial concept created to facilitate trade, and right now it's not working. Instead of changing how we trade, why the hell aren't we changing the tool we use to trade instead?

Thats true. Actual physical money is worthless nowadays. When the gold standard was operating in UK, the country had to have enough gold to cover all the money in circulation. A pound note was an IOU from the bank for a quids worth of gold (promise to pay the bearer etc). There's nothing to back money up since the gold standard was done away with. It's an IOU for feck all now.

lkionm

Whats the ol story in Cyprus now, after hours?
Hit me with your best economics and debt dynamics.

the purple tin

the purple tin wrote: »

Thats true. Actual physical money is worthless nowadays. When the gold standard was operating in UK, the country had to have enough gold to cover all the money in circulation. A pound note was an IOU from the bank for a quids worth of gold (promise to pay the bearer etc). There's nothing to back money up since the gold standard was done away with. It's an IOU for feck all now.

Giz all your money so, if it's so worthless. Thought so.

lkionm

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Giz all your money so, if it's so worthless. Thought so.

Just as long as you keep 10% of it on reserve for me to use and use the other 90% to give out as loans which also have a 10% reserve.

You have now become what you hate most, a bank.

lkionm

lkionm wrote: »

Just as long as you keep 10% of it on reserve for me to use and use the other 90% to give out as loans which also have a 10% reserve.

You have now become what you hate most, a bank.

So quote the zeitgeist, evermore.

Yurt

Cyprus Bank impose limits of 100 euros per day

http://rt.com/business/cyprus-bailout-withdrawal-banks-756/

drdeadlift

Yurt wrote: »

Cyprus Bank impose limits of 100 euros per day

http://rt.com/business/cyprus-bailout-withdrawal-banks-756/

its ridiculous

hmmm

How's that "sticking two fingers up the ECB/IMF" thing working out for them? We've been told by assorted Irish gobdaws that this is what we should have done, let's see how it goes.

arybvtcw0eolkf

The mouse that roared ~ go ya good thing Cyprus..

Cyprus the brave.

Nate--IRL--

Gabriella Numerous Register wrote: »

The mouse that roared ~ go ya good thing Cyprus..

Cyprus the brave.

Cyprus the bankrupt.

Nate

Rightwing

Nika Bolokov wrote: »

Shame on Ireland.

The cowardice of our leaders has sold the next generation into debt slavery.

I never thought I would write two sentences like that in my life but the past 4 years have totally changed my perspective.

Fair play to Cyprus, they have some bottle.

Should we not be looking at the bertie ahern led governments that left the country with €25bln annual deficit? Or should we say, go on Germany, pick up the tabs?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

Cyprus the bankrupt.

Nate

Haven't a bleed'n washer meself

Go me.