Tenant using deposit as last month's rent - without permission!

Bigcheeze

josip wrote: »

I had to replace some broken things afterwards, but they were minor, eg. blinds pulley, rad TRV valve, shower hose.

All of which would be normal wear and tear anyway and not deductible from a deposit

murphaph

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

The system as it stands is wholly weighted in favour of the LL.

Clearly it isn't when tenants can withhold their last month's rent with impunity.

Mr.Wemmick

@pawwed rig

It is not a weak generalization when it amounts to a person's experience of how is has been with many LLs. I am always reading on boards about LLs holding on to deposits and that is exactly what I have found not only as a student in this country, but as a professional renting properties. I have had relatives and friends describe similar experiences - it beggars belief that deposits are withheld illegally by landlords again and again, even just by being forgetful and not handing it back until a month or two later. By not handing over the deposit with out a joint discussion or an agreed deduction on the changeover date is unfair and can and does put tenants in a difficult financial position. By inferring that this is not important or dismissing people's real experiences and how the tenant is at fault by not abiding by the rules, and ignoring the fact that many LLs are breaking the rules, is a generalization in itself and rather disingenuous.

The deposit does not belong to a LL and the fact that tenants need to go to PRTB to obtain their rightful money with months of wrangling ahead whilst an independent body sorts it out is not fair on the tenant who has done nothing wrong. Tenants like me will continue to ignore the current legislation because it is cumbersome and out dated - retrieving money from LLs is not a simple or an easy business. That has been my experience and so many folks on Boards who start threads or write posts again and again stressing what a difficult time they're having..

I have no doubt that if the deposit was held in an independent a/c then tenants would feel more confident in getting their money back and would be more willing to get an independent body in to settle the issue. By allowing LLs to personally hold on to tenants' money/deposit is totally wrong and it is time the legislation was updated.

Mr.Wemmick

murphaph wrote: »

Clearly it isn't when tenants can withhold their last month's rent with impunity.

So which came first the chicken or the egg?

The system is a mess and I really do feel for tenants and good LLs who have been victims of it. Like I said before, my experiences over the years have been bad so I do not pay my last month's rent (I would if it was independently held) but I make sure that I have paid for repairs, good standard cleaning and do not leave on the end date until the LL is happy.. but I pre-empt that by getting LL inspecting the property 2 weeks before the last date. By taking control of the last month, it works out better for me, and I walk away free from any on-going hassle.

Gatling

Other than the op saying he had issues with late payments ,
Thread title - tenant using deposit as last months rent without permission , who's permission is needed if op has the deposit and tenant said take the months rent from that your still getting your rent or am I missing something,

One ll i rented from said when we moved in "I'm replacing the laminated floor as it was badly marked and damaged in some places ,2 years later inform the ll I won't be signing a new lease all good I thought moving out day ll doesn't show up moved anyway the next arrange to meet ll oh I don't have your deposit ,why not ohh I've to replace the laminate floors that were damaged 2years and 1 tenant previous to me ,again sorry Mr ll not my problem ,now where's my deposit now were talking 1200e he then say oh I can only pay you 200 back ,whyni asked ohhh I've bills to pay ,again not my problem another offer 250 if I walk away ,sorry chap 1200e or nothing can you come back in 8 weeks I can give you 500e and that my final offer ,sorry ll this isn't a negotiation pay up or be prepared for what's going to come next , so yeah some ll not all most I've rented have been pretty good then there the plain nastys .again you ll's also get the same tenant wise some great tenants ,other just nasty

murphaph

Yet another woe is me thread about renting in Ireland. In Germany landlords may legally retain deposits for up to six months.

Gatling

murphaph wrote: »

Yet another woe is me thread about renting in Ireland. In Germany landlords may legally retain deposits for up to six months.

Why would they need to retain a deposit for 6 months ,

Couldn't see that going down to well here,

murphaph

Gatling wrote: »

Why would they need to retain a deposit for 6 months ,

Couldn't see that going down to well here,

It certainly wouldn't. In Ireland it seems most tenants want their deposit back before they've even left as evidenced by this thread!

Also remember that deposits in Germany are 3 months rent, not just 1, so it's a lot more money that can be tied up than in Ireland.

You just get sick reading the "renting in Ireland is a nightmare" threads.

Gatling

My only expectation when renting is if i pay my deposit on the day I sign my least I expect to have it returned on the day i leave after giving proper notice and there is no issue with damage or anything else,

So take say 3000e deposit then having to raise another 3000e just to move into another apartment if you choose to move on ,

I wouldn't trust that amount of money directly to a ll ,

Pawwed Rig

Gatling wrote: »

I wouldn't trust that amount of money directly to a ll ,

But he has to trust (probably) his most valuable asset to you

fasttalkerchat

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

But he has to trust (probably) his most valuable asset to you

Not really true. The most a tenant can possibly gain from a house is about €600 by selling all the appliances. Deposit is usually more than that figure.

murphaph

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

But he has to trust (probably) his most valuable asset to you

Exactly! The landlord has to place FAR more trust in the tenant. His asset may be worth tens or hundreds of thousands, not one lousy month's rent.

kidneyfan

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

But he has to trust (probably) his most valuable asset to you

No he doesn't. No one is obliged to be a landlord. Many people are obliged to rent. I would suggest that the OP contact the PRTB and write to his TD.

murphaph

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Not really true. The most a tenant can possibly gain from a house is about €600 by selling all the appliances. Deposit is usually more than that figure.

The tenant can cause a LOT more harm than that! I'm sorry but you don't know what you're talking about if you think the above is true!

murphaph

kidneyfan wrote: »

No he doesn't. No one is obliged to be a landlord. Many people are obliged to rent. I would suggest that the OP contact the PRTB and write to his TD.

Silly statement. Nobody is forced to rent either...you could go live under a bridge. See how silly that sounds?

kidneyfan

Carbon125 wrote: »

The problem is mentioned in the thread title. Can anything be done about this? Is it even worth getting the PRTB involved - I imagine they will be merely wagging a finger at the offender and telling him not to do it again in the future?

You should write to the PRTB immediately. You should also contact your TD.

Gatling

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Not really true. The most a tenant can possibly gain from a house is about €600 by selling all the appliances. Deposit is usually more than that figure.

Then watch the list grow ,oh repainting 600e
Oh a professional clean 700e and so on ,
Again watch how some ll's would love this ,

Then again it might get rid of the rif raf Ra tenants they would have to raise the 3000 e up front then if they do a legger or cause damage they have to find another 3000e to rent another place and welfare wont give that out

Pawwed Rig

kidneyfan wrote: »

No he doesn't. No one is obliged to be a landlord. Many people are obliged to rent. I would suggest that the OP contact the PRTB and write to his TD.

Loads of people are obliged to be landlords. Do you know how much negative equity there is in this country? Do you know how difficult it has been to sell a house for the last 5 years. There are literally thousands of people forced into being a landlord in the last few years just so they could move closer to work, get a larger house for their family, many have also began renting again as they could no longer afford their mortgages due to wage reductions, tax increases etc, many are back living with their parents trying to make ends meet. Seriously do you read the news??

Mr.Wemmick

murphaph wrote: »

It certainly wouldn't. In Ireland it seems most tenants want their deposit back before they've even left as evidenced by this thread!

Also remember that deposits in Germany are 3 months rent, not just 1, so it's a lot more money that can be tied up than in Ireland.

You just get sick reading the "renting in Ireland is a nightmare" threads.

What nonsense!! There are enough moaners from the UK, Irish, US expat communities living in German to fill many accommodation forums thrice over.. there are as many complaints of unfair deductions, failed deposit returns there as here. One difference being that there is often a Hausmeister who can do the final house/apartment report with you which speeds things up.. and if you come across a real nobhead of a LL you have always got the brilliant Meiterverein who are very effective in sorting out problems/disputes.

Moan away Ireland, there are crap LLs everywhere.

This I-live-in-Germany-and-are-holier-than-thou you eejits in Ireland is just plain ********

Pawwed Rig

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Not really true. The most a tenant can possibly gain from a house is about €600 by selling all the appliances. Deposit is usually more than that figure.

When I lived in Maynooth there was a student house close by who started cutting the rafters out of the attic for firewood. Literally 1,000's in damage. My brother had a tenant who pretty much wrecked the house again costing thousands to put right. I have seen nearly new couches with cigerette burns in them, mattresses with disgusting stains, bills left unpaid, rental arrears of up to €5,000, gas mains pulled up, holes in walls, I could go on. In one case I knew of a landlord who had to clean pools of blood of the driveway of his rental house. But I would never come on here claiming all tenants are scroungers like some have tried to claim of landlords.

murphaph

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

What nonsense!! They are enough moaners from the UK, Irish, US expat communities living in German to fill many accommodation forums thrice over.. there are as many complaints of unfair deductions, failed deposit returns there as here. One difference being that there is often a Hausmeister who can do the final house/apartment report with you which speeds things up.. and if you come across a real nobhead of a LL you have always got the brilliant MeiterVerein who are very effective in sorting out problems/disputes.

Moan away Ireland, there are crap LLs everywhere.

This I-live-in-Germany-and-are-holier-than-thou you eejits in Ireland is just plain ********

Did you understand my post. It doesn't look like it.

fasttalkerchat

murphaph wrote: »

The tenant can cause a LOT more harm than that! I'm sorry but you don't know what you're talking about if you think the above is true!

Of course they can cause more harm but they wouldn't profit from it financially and would lose money through the deposit. Bricks have no realisable value, maybe copper... but my point is that it wouldn't make financial sense for the tenant to do more harm.

The LL can nick the deposit for 100% profit.

kidneyfan

All complete nonsense. The option to move to the United Kingdom (which begins at Newry) and declare bankruptcy is open to everyone. People who are barely getting by are not in a position to be landlords as they will be tempted to steal from their tenants as is common in the Republic (based on anecdotes from family, friends, customers and co workers.

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Loads of people are obliged to be landlords. Do you know how much negative equity there is in this country? Do you know how difficult it has been to sell a house for the last 5 years. There are literally thousands of people forced into being a landlord in the last few years just so they could move closer to work, get a larger house for their family, many have also began renting again as they could no longer afford their mortgages due to wage reductions, tax increases etc, many are back living with their parents trying to make ends meet. Seriously do you read the news??

Pipmae

I have rented out my investment property for the last 9 years. During that time I have had approximately 6 different tenants (ranging from single people sharing to couples to small families). I have only every withheld the deposit once. In that case the tenants took me to the PRTB and I won the case.

So not all landlords take the p***. In general I will refund the full deposit even if there are some minor repairs to be made. I accept that tenants are entitled to reasonable wear and tear. If they have been good tenants during their lease I give them a bit of slack.

OP I don't think there is really anything you can do TBH. Unless there is a lot of damage to the house I would cut my losses and 'let' the tenant away with it. From my experience I found dealing with the PRTB was one of the most stressful experiences I have ever had in my life. That's coming from someone who won the case as a landlord (a rarity from what I gather) and in general I handle pressure and stress quite well.

fasttalkerchat

kidneyfan wrote: »

All complete nonsense. The option to move to the United Kingdom (which begins at Newry) and declare bankruptcy is open to everyone. People who are barely getting by are not in a position to be landlords as they will be tempted to steal from their tenants as is common in the Republic (based on anecdotes from family, friends, customers and co workers.

I have come across less well off landlords, one in particular wanted me to rent his family home as he had moved in with his parents to save money. I would say they are no more likely to rip someone off, in fact they understand the hurt that would cause.
Almost everyone I know who was ripped off it was by an agency and not the LL.

murphaph

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Of course they can cause more harm but they wouldn't profit from it financially and would lose money through the deposit. Bricks have no realisable value, maybe copper... but my point is that it wouldn't make financial sense for the tenant to do more harm.

The LL can nick the deposit for 100% profit.

Who cares about financial sense? Damage is damage and it happens with alarming regularity in Ireland. The most obvious financial advantage to a delinquent tenant is simply not to pay his rent and sit out the process. That alone can cost the landlord several tens of thousands in lost rent and legal expenses. Do you want to withdraw your statement that "the most a tenant can do is €600 worth of damage" now?

Pawwed Rig

kidneyfan wrote: »

All complete nonsense. The option to move to the United Kingdom (which begins at Newry) and declare bankruptcy is open to everyone. People who are barely getting by are not in a position to be landlords as they will be tempted to steal from their tenants as is common in the Republic (based on anecdotes from family, friends, customers and co workers.

most people are honest and will do their best to pay their bills. Also it is hard to commute to work from UK. You sure you can declare bakrupcy in the UK when your centre of interest lies in Ireland? Come on you can make a better argument than that

murphaph

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

most people are honest and will do their best to pay their bills. Also it is hard to commute to work from UK. You sure you can declare bakrupcy in the UK when your centre of interest lies in Ireland? Come on you can make a better argument than that

No you have to move there to be able to declare bankruptcy there. You can't do it when you're up in asda of a Saturday afternoon as kidneyfan seems to think.

fasttalkerchat

Pipmae wrote: »

OP I don't think there is really anything you can do TBH. Unless there is a lot of damage to the house I would cut my losses and 'let' the tenant away with it. From my experience I found dealing with the PRTB was one of the most stressful experiences I have ever had in my life. That's coming from someone who won the case as a landlord (a rarity from what I gather) and in general I handle pressure and stress quite well.

I would agree with you, the one issue is that if this becomes commonplace, landlords will get ripped off by the malicious tenants who have wrecked the place.
I think something needs to be put in place to encourage mutual trust. Something like a 3rd party to hold the deposit.

Con Logue

I believe the system in England and Wales is the way to go.

In February 2012 I had to break a tenancy in the west of England part way due to my needing to return for family reasons to Ireland. My deposit was held on escrow and my rent was due and payable, entirely separate from the deposit, right up to the day I left. The lease was enforceable up to the date of its completion, but was only cancelled on the reletting of the apartment. As I had broken the lease, the deposit was forfeit in its entireity. All in black and white, no messing or piss taking by anyone.

And I was liable for all local taxation and water/gas/electricity charges.

The present system in Ireland is fundamentally broken, protects the rights of neither tenant nor landlord and needs to be overhauled along the lines above.