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Tenant using deposit as last month's rent - without permission!

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    #62
    kidneyfan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,279 ✭✭✭kidneyfan


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    Something like a 3rd party to hold the deposit.
    PM me. I am happy to hold deposits on behalf of Landlords and tenants alike.


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    #63
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,524 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »

    Cleaning bills are a legitimate expense.
    LL's cannot use the deposit to suit themselves as it is covered by legislation. An appeal to the PRTB will result in the tenant getting the money owed to him in 100% of the cases.


    Now that just is not true. Look at the judgements section of the PRTB website and look for cases where deposits were withdrawn.
    http://public.prtb.ie/disputes2012.htm

    From PRTB documentation on deposit retention

    'and while the level of such disputes is equivalent to 1% of tenancies, a similar percentage to that in England, Wales and Australia but lower than in New Zealand, such disputes account for a significant proportion and a growing percentage of disputes handled by the PRTB.'

    So we are talking 1% of tenancies?? Hardly the huge problem you are describing. Lets say 50% of these are genuine so we are talking .5% of landlords illegally withold deposits! Hardly a national scandal and where they do it is relatively easy to recover cash.
    Source http://public.prtb.ie/DownloadDocs/Study%20on%20Deposit_Retention_Scheme_Submitted%20to%20PRTB%2021%2009%2009.pdf
    Tenants are not arsed with the PRTB it serves no purpose. The figures are obviously skewed,

    As for contacting a TD to get a deposit back. I work full time, also doing a part time masters have a wife and 2 kids, where would I get the time to do that and why need the hassle when I can sort it by not giving landlord more money that I need to.

    Point of information. I own my own home and also am a landlord for a second property I own, but rented for years so know the craic.


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    #64
    RATM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,591 ✭✭✭RATM


    Mr.Wemmick wrote: »
    There's only one unprofessional nonsense in the world of renting and that is: the deposit being in the Landlord's possession. It should be in an independent bank account and only released on the signature and agreement of both LL and tenant.

    .

    Could agree with this more. In Australia you pay a bond to a govt agency and they adjudicate disputes, of which there are few becuase of the integrity of the system they run.

    I remember being up until 5am washing walls in our house in Sydney. We left it spotless and got 100% of our deposit back, landlord thanked us for doing so.

    Also when you think about it another way- 90,000 rented units in Ireland, lets say average deposit of €800. 90,000 x €800 = €72million. Government then puts the bulk of the cash into a bond account at 4% pa which yields a handy €3m. An amount which more than pays for the administering of a rental bond scheme in the first place. So it is more than cost neutral and serves tenants and landlords equally well and fairly.

    It isn't rocket science, except if you're the Irish government :rolleyes:


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    #65
    regress
    Registered Users Posts: 580 ✭✭✭regress


    Have always withheld last months rent. It is the only way in Ireland to ensure you get your deposit back. I have always also cleaned place and paid any legitimate expenses.

    No way would I trust an Irish landlord to return a deposit.


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    #66
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    regress wrote: »
    Have always withheld last months rent. It is the only way in Ireland to ensure you get your deposit back. I have always also cleaned place and paid any legitimate expenses.

    No way would I trust an Irish landlord to return a deposit.

    What about getting a reference?


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    #67
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    regress wrote: »
    Have always withheld last months rent. It is the only way in Ireland to ensure you get your deposit back. I have always also cleaned place and paid any legitimate expenses.

    No way would I trust an Irish landlord to return a deposit.

    I don't blame you. But theres a flip side to this, where problems come to light only after the tenant has left. Often things you won't notice on an initial inspection. Just like not every LL is good, not every Tenant is good either.


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    #68
    Mr.Wemmick
    Registered Users Posts: 1,092 ✭✭✭Mr.Wemmick


    murphaph wrote: »
    Yet another woe is me thread about renting in Ireland. In Germany landlords may legally retain deposits for up to six months.

    I should have quoted the above post too.

    You are implying here that tenants in Ireland are moaning constantly.. as German LLs take more of a deposit and for longer so it cannot be compared.

    Which is nonsense: doesn't matter if a LL has one week's rent, 3 or 6 months, they can not hold on to all or part of it for no good reason. Irish tenants have a legitimate reason to complain because of the archaic and cumbersome system in place.. Germany has a smoother running efficient Meiterverband there to assist with disputes.. and to infer that one month's rent delay is not that important compared to 6 months's is complete and utter nonsense.

    As long as we abide by the rules within the inefficient system that we have in Ireland, tenants will justifiably continue to complain again and again, and so they should.


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    #69
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Tenants AND Landlords complain about the set up here.


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    #70
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    No it's not

    Not necessarily true

    Generalisation

    Generalisation

    Will it? If tenants are ignoring the current legislation why do you think they won't ignore reformed legislation?

    I think you need to read the thread as you seemed to have missed alot of the points that are being discussed.

    It seems you missed the points of the thread and only see the issue not just from a LL point of view but a from a LL who disregards tenants in general.


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    #71
    Solair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    Maybe I've been lucky, but so far I've never had a major issue with deposit retention in Ireland. However, I was completely screwed-over in Spain where a very hefty deposit was kept for totally inexplicable reasons. Really stupid stuff like they claimed we had left dust under the bed and 'failed to clean dust from the sockets' !! This apparently cost >€2000 to clean.

    We also purchased a brand new vacuum cleaner, kettle and iron which we left in the apartment because we assumed someone would like to use them and I wasn't going to pay to have them shipped back to Ireland for no good reason.

    The landlord tried to charge me a 'junk removal fee' for those.

    What it came down to was the guy was short of cash and thought we were stupid enough / lacking in language enough not to challenge him.

    We got the local authorities involved and the deposit was returned under duress.

    A lot of friends of mine have had really unreasonable deposit retention attempts in the UK too, particularly from rental agencies. Just absolutely mad stuff, mostly attempting to charge for 'damage' to things that were already worn out e.g. worn carpets / faulty electrical appliances etc.
    Like someone trying to charge £400 because the 8 year old washing machine was not working properly.

    In Ireland the worst I had was when I paid a booking deposit on a place which subsequently turned out to have massive wiring / plumbing problems. We cancelled before we signed the lease having spotted them and the agent refused point blank to return the booking deposit and even tried to threaten us with legal action for not signing the lease.

    Total cowboys, just ignored them.

    But, apart from that, I've rented a few times in Ireland and had prompt return of the deposit.

    I think it's just hit and miss everywhere to be honest. Ireland and Britain probably suffer from poorer regulation so you can have more issues with very little to fall back on if it does go wrong. Although, that being said the PRTB is still easier to navigate than the English setup.

    I generally find you get more cowboys in markets where things are booming and it's difficult to find somewhere to rent because people will put up with low standards and bad landlords, ridiculous agencies etc etc. It's definitely still very much the case in London and other busier spots in the UK.

    In most of Ireland these days, that's just no longer the case. Landlords seem to have to put in a bit more effort than they used to.

    I think we need to move to a situation where the deposit is held in a dual-signature trust fund - it would keep things a lot more straight forward and avoid issues where someone's deposit gets merged into the landlord's day-to-day cash flow.
    In these tighter times, it's probably more important than ever as if someone's spent the deposit, it may not be easy to find up to a grand and a half at short notice.

    The state could even use it as a source of short time credit! Just sell 'deposit bonds' with dual signatures via the post office or something like that. It could even be done online.


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    #72
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,379 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    ted1 wrote: »
    Tenants are not arsed with the PRTB it serves no purpose. The figures are obviously skewed

    The link I posted earlier would disagree with that. Click on it and look at how many tenants take cases.
    ted1 wrote: »
    As for contacting a TD to get a deposit back. I work full time, also doing a part time masters have a wife and 2 kids, where would I get the time to do that and why need the hassle when I can sort it by not giving landlord more money that I need to.
    You could e-mail your local TD as quickly as type in a response here. Fair play on the Masters. I did that too part time. it's tough.
    ted1 wrote: »
    Point of information. I own my own home and also am a landlord for a second property I own, but rented for years so know the craic.
    I'm in a similar situation.
    RATM wrote: »
    Could agree with this more. In Australia you pay a bond to a govt agency and they adjudicate disputes
    This country is unable to run efficient government agencies. The PRTB in Ireland is the govt agency that adjudicates disputes and they are worse than useless. Would you want to give them a deposit too?
    gurramok wrote: »
    It seems you missed the points of the thread and only see the issue not just from a LL point of view but a from a LL who disregards tenants in general.

    Nope I am actually currently renting but have never had 1 cent of a deposit withdrawn by a landlord. This is because for a start I know what my rights are better than most landlords and secondly because I remain on good terms with the landlord as we have a business relationship so leave the apartment house in good condition. I am not sure where I disregarded tenants in general? I pointed out a few examples of bad tenants but also said that despite that I would not tar all tenants with the same brush.
    It reminds me of the motoring/cycling forums. Motorist give out about cyclists and cyclists shout about motorists but in reality some people are just dicks.


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    #73
    Rabidlamb
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭Rabidlamb


    regress wrote: »
    Have always withheld last months rent. It is the only way in Ireland to ensure you get your deposit back. I have always also cleaned place and paid any legitimate expenses.

    No way would I trust an Irish landlord to return a deposit.

    I rented for 11 years & always used this method


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    #74
    josip
    Registered Users Posts: 13,943 ✭✭✭✭josip


    I think OP that you'll have to take one for the team on this one. What might be useful to reduce the chances of this happening to either you, or another landlord in the future would be to get on to www.irishlandlord.com or similar. Ask them would it be feasible to set up a searchable database that landlords could view and submit to. The database could record the tenant name and rented address, and a comment field where the landlord would indicate if they left the place in reasonable condition and paid up their last month's rent. For privacy concerns, all the entries in the database would not be visible, only those that matched the searched for name.


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    #75
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Nope I am actually currently renting but have never had 1 cent of a deposit withdrawn by a landlord. This is because for a start I know what my rights are better than most landlords and secondly because I remain on good terms with the landlord as we have a business relationship so leave the apartment house in good condition. I am not sure where I disregarded tenants in general? I pointed out a few examples of bad tenants but also said that despite that I would not tar all tenants with the same brush.
    It reminds me of the motoring/cycling forums. Motorist give out about cyclists and cyclists shout about motorists but in reality some people are just dicks.

    Pointing out the bad LL's would be helpful too, its lacking on your part.

    I too had the same relationship as your LL, fixed things within a good timeframe and had an inspection of the place a few weeks before I left as it was spotless.

    I too withheld the last months rent as the LL did not follow the correct official procedures in the tenancy so I had no certainty I would get my deposit back. I was not going to wait many months to get my money back so the risk was worth taking, we owed each other nothing.

    They never even bothered chasing the last months rent either as the place was rented immediately again within a week.

    In boards land, there does be a thread about LL's withholding deposits nearly every week. It happens in the real world alot hence there have been suggestions by Threshold to copy the UK system of independent holders of deposits.


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    #76
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,379 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    How would that help though? As in the event of a dispute you still need to wait for the PRTB to rule before they could release the deposit.

    The thread is about tenants withholding rent in lieu of their deposit. This is against the law. A landlord withholding the deposit due to damage or other issues is not against the law if the expenses are reasonable. In the event of a dispute you apply to the PRTB which read the law strictly wrt landlord obligations but allow alot of leeway wrt tenant obligations.
    If the thread was about a landlord withholding rent illegally I would advise the tenant of their rights under the law also.
    Landlords are a very easy target in this country and (judging by this thread) there are alot of misconceptions about landlords.


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    #77
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    How would that help though? As in the event of a dispute you still need to wait for the PRTB to rule before they could release the deposit.

    It would be a disincentive for landlords to withhold deposits for the flimsiest and conning reasons. Only genuine reasons would be entertained if the deposit was held by a 3rd party.
    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    The thread is about tenants withholding rent in lieu of their deposit. This is against the law. A landlord withholding the deposit due to damage or other issues is not against the law if the expenses are reasonable. In the event of a dispute you apply to the PRTB which read the law strictly wrt landlord obligations but allow alot of leeway wrt tenant obligations.

    Bad tenant.
    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    If the thread was about a landlord withholding rent illegally I would advise the tenant of their rights under the law also.

    Bad landlord.
    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Landlords are a very easy target in this country and (judging by this thread) there are alot of misconceptions about landlords.

    So are tenants. There are both bad tenants and bad landlords, you forget the latter.


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    #78
    djimi
    Registered Users Posts: 13,237 ✭✭✭✭djimi


    gurramok wrote: »
    It would be a disincentive for landlords to withhold deposits for the flimsiest and conning reasons. Only genuine reasons would be entertained if the deposit was held by a 3rd party.

    It would also mean that tenants would have less reasons to pull stunts like withholding the last months rent, as there would be less fear of them being ripped off by their landlord when they leave.

    Am I right in saying that in the UK the 3rd party also carries out the inspections on the property when the tenant leaves? That would further reduce the chance of there being issues with the deposit, as it would be properly out of the hands of both the tenant and the landlord.


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    #79
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    djimi wrote: »
    It would also mean that tenants would have less reasons to pull stunts like withholding the last months rent, as there would be less fear of them being ripped off by their landlord when they leave.

    Am I right in saying that in the UK the 3rd party also carries out the inspections on the property when the tenant leaves? That would further reduce the chance of there being issues with the deposit, as it would be properly out of the hands of both the tenant and the landlord.

    Lots about it here https://www.gov.uk/tenancy-deposit-protection/overview

    10 day return of deposit sounds like paradise in comparison to here!

    That 3rd party is probably the council but not as part of the normal inspection process when a tenancy ends. A landlord has the right to inspect the property at any time once the 24hr notice is given, handy for entering premises looking for any damage in the last days of any tenancy.


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    #80
    gaius c
    Registered Users Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭gaius c


    Mr.Wemmick wrote: »
    There's only one unprofessional nonsense in the world of renting and that is: the deposit being in the Landlord's possession. It should be in an independent bank account and only released on the signature and agreement of both LL and tenant.

    If you have been living in rented accommodation with a Landlord who has not cared about any problems you have had, been rude or ignored you then it is safe to say your deposit will not be returned to you in full, if at all.

    For the last few years, I have not paid my last month's rent. I do, however, make sure the Landlord has inspected the property with me 2 weeks before the final date so we can discuss what needs to be repaired or has been already fixed by me etc. I arrange for what ever needs doing, agreed by both me and LL, pay for it, clean to a better standard that I found the place..and the LL is informed every step of the way in the run up to the end of tenancy and, needless to say, LL is happy.

    My last LL was a really nice guy, but really forgetful. I literally had to drag him around the house to make him check everything, even make him measure the oil tank to show him I am leaving more oil than when I arrived. No way was I spending months chasing him for the deposit.. I would have got it back eventually, maybe 6 months later.. but not without lots of hassle.

    I agree with you that deposits should be held in escrow but with the current situation, two wrongs do not make a right.


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