Formula 1 2013: Round 2 - Malaysian Grand Prix

jordainius

Scotty # wrote: »

Points are THE ONE AND ONLY parameter considered in determining the title. EVERYTHING else is irrelevant. Doesn't matter how good you think someone is or how much you think someone deserved to win. Points are all that matter.

Is this your argument for Vettel or your argument on behalf of Red Bull? Because you are correct, points are indeed the only thing that matter at the end of the day. Which is exactly how Red Bull saw it.

As such, Red Bull instructed their drivers to see out the race in a manner that would earn the team 43 points.

Vettel's actions risked potentially turning 43 points into 0 points.

I'd prefer it if team orders were never implemented but at the end of the day the teams have every right to instruct their drivers to do their job in a manner that is in the best interests of the team.

Scotty #

ScumLord wrote: »

You can't win points without a car...

and you can't win a championship without points! I'm not sure what you are getting at here.

ScumLord wrote: »

the driver as the employee has to carry out those orders.

Technically speaking the drivers are not employees. Most of them have set themselves up as PLC's and are then contracted to the team.

What does Vettels contract say about team orders? Considering he's won 3 world titles with Red Bull and is current champ! I have a feeling, seeing as RedBull are taking no disciplinary action, that there is very little about team orders and it was more of a request to hold position rather than a downright order. We never actually got to hear the instructions being given on the TV (incidentally I heard during the week that the teams curse and swear a lot over the radio if they don't want it broadcast on TV).

We can argue this around in circles but the bottom line is that rightly or wrongly competitors like Vettel, Senna, Schumacher, Hamilton (I think) will try to win at all cost. They can't help it. It's the same reason Tiery Henry handled the ball. He didn't make a calculated decision to do it, it was pure instinct and I'm certain he regretted it later. I'm also certain he would do it again next time. It's in their blood and sport would not exist without them. Should we punish them for it? Should we consider them unsporting or un professional?

Who is less sporting? Vettel for passing when Webber believed (foolishly) that he wouldn't or Webber for expecting Vettel to let him win the race?? I say Webber.

Myrddin

the culture of deference wrote: »

Last year after Seb was tagged in Brazil Reb bull had a photo of the damage to assess it.

Alonso's front wing was clearly hanging off, we could see that from the TV shots, the team should have known the force required for the wing to survive.

Have to agree, it was not only a silly, but potentially dangerous move by Ferrari especially on that track with two huge straights where speed & pressure on the wing would be highest

ScumLord

Scotty # wrote: »

and you can't win a championship without points! I'm not sure what you are getting at here.

The point is Vettle is driving for the team not himself no matter what he thinks.

Technically speaking the drivers are not employees. Most of them have set themselves up as PLC's and are then contracted to the team.

That gives him less rights than an employee not more. That means if he fails to fulfil the demands of his contract he can be dumped and won't have any of the rights an employee would have.

We can argue this around in circles but the bottom line is that rightly or wrongly competitors like Vettel, Senna, Schumacher, Hamilton (I think) will try to win at all cost. They can't help it.

That's true, it's also why they can't really do anything about what he did but at the end of the day if he keeps jeopardizing Red Bulls points by taking risks with both their cars they could look very dimly on him. Red Bull are more than just a formula one team, they're a franchise that put their public image above everything else.

While Vettle is great and so far hasn't had to many crashes if he starts to affect the overall points the team can win there are just as many good drivers out there waiting to take his job.

Myrddin

Scotty # wrote: »

We can argue this around in circles but the bottom line is that rightly or wrongly competitors like Vettel, Senna, Schumacher, Hamilton (I think) will try to win at all cost. They can't help it. It's the same reason Tiery Henry handled the ball. He didn't make a calculated decision to do it, it was pure instinct and I'm certain he regretted it later. I'm also certain he would do it again next time. It's in their blood and sport would not exist without them. Should we punish them for it? Should we consider them unsporting or un professional?

I agree with everything written here, but I do think Vettel was unsporting in this case, not unprofessional.

Who is less sporting? Vettel for passing when Webber believed (foolishly) that he wouldn't or Webber for expecting Vettel to let him win the race?? I say Webber.

Webber was only doing as told, & Seb couldn't get near him until he was ordered to turn his engine down. So no, the only thing Webber done wrong here was not fighting until the death. If they had have collided then it would have been Vettels fault so if I were Webber I'd have gone for broke. Does Vettels body language on the podium not tell you how he actually felt about it?

BostonB

Scotty # wrote: »

...Who is less sporting? Vettel for passing when Webber believed (foolishly) that he wouldn't or Webber for expecting Vettel to let him win the race?? I say Webber.

Depends what you mean by "sporting". You seem to be taking it as to win at any cost. Rather than Sportsmanship which is something else entirely.

The reason they banned team orders in the past was it was seen as bringing the sport into disrepute. This incident make F1 look like a joke tbh.

Myrddin

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Its both, if your boss tells you not to do something you ignore him repeatedly and still do it thats definitely unprofessional.

I suppose so, by ignoring the orders of his race engineer, his team principle, & by disregarding any pre-race team strategy/agreement, it does show unprofessionalism in some light.

Scotty #

BostonB wrote: »

Depends what you mean by "sporting". You seem to be taking it as to win at any cost. Rather than Sportsmanship which is something else entirely.

I am talking about sportsmanship. The idea of always playing fair and doing the right thing. Mark Webber and RedBull did not display sportsmanship when they asked a competitor to let the other guy win. What Vettel did after that might not have been very sporting either but I don't think you can deny that asking another competitor to not pass you or not even try to pass you is unsportsmanlike to the extreme. It would be considered cheating in most sports.

ScumLord wrote: »

Red Bull are more than just a formula one team, they're a franchise that put their public image above everything else.

I really think that of all people involved with RedBull racing Sebastian Vettel did the least damage last Sunday.

ScumLord wrote: »

...if he keeps jeopardizing Red Bulls points by taking risks with both their cars they could look very dimly on him.... While Vettle is great and so far hasn't had to many crashes if he starts to affect the overall points the team can win there are just as many good drivers out there waiting to take his job.

I think this statement is a bit naive of you to be honest. Vettel is GOD as far as RedBull are concerened (and after last Sunday he's pretty high in Bernies books too). If they had to choose between Webber and Vettel Webbers arse wouldn't hit the floor on the way out. There are not 'just as many good drivers' out there. As much as I hate to say it he is something special.

To be honest I'm a bit surprised I seem to be the only one defending Vettel. I'm not defending his stabbing Webber in the back. I'm saying he should not have been put in that situation to begin with.

Christian Horner is being interviewed on SKY SPORTS F1 at 8pm... looking forward to that now he's had a few days to consider his thoughts.

mickdw

Scotty # wrote: »

Christian Horner is being interviewed on SKY SPORTS F1 at 8pm... looking forward to that now he's had a few days to consider his thoughts.

Thanks for the heads up. Im preparing the sick bag here.
Im expecting a few bullcrap comments about having two great drivers who both want to win and then full support for seb and skirting around any question of him stabbing mark in the back.

Myrddin

Scotty # wrote: »

To be honest I'm a bit surprised I seem to be the only one defending Vettel. I'm not defending his stabbing Webber in the back. I'm saying he should not have been put in that situation to begin with.

I'm curious, after presumably shaking hands on a pre-race agreement to stick to Multi 21, and after having a four second lead over Vettel before pitting & then being told to wind back the engine as Vettel would not be challenging and had been ordered to do the same...do you think Mark was naive to assume Vettel would stick to his word? Do you think Mark should have ignored all the agreements & orders?

BostonB

Scotty # wrote: »

I am talking about sportsmanship. The idea of always playing fair and doing the right thing. Mark Webber and RedBull did not display sportsmanship when they asked a competitor to let the other guy win. What Vettel did after that might not have been very sporting either but I don't think you can deny that asking another competitor to not pass you or not even try to pass you is unsportsmanlike to the extreme. It would be considered cheating in most sports. ...

Playing fair would have been to say you wouldn't abide by the team rules, when asked to do so, before the race. Not to do a Pearl Harbour on your teammate with no warning. Especially when you know adhering to those rules put your teammate at a disadvantage. It was a sucker punch.

You've been taking about Gamesmanship, to win at any cost, not Sportsmanship all along.

A discussion about team orders being unfair is a different discussion. Vettel wasn't making any sort of stand against team orders because he agreed to them beforehand. Also he asked the team to get Webber to move out of his way.

BostonB

EnterNow wrote: »

...Do you think Mark should have ignored all the agreements & orders?

TBH RB are going to have hard time getting Webber to follow any "team" orders from now on.

Myrddin

BostonB wrote: »

TBH RB are going to have hard time getting Webber to follow any "team" orders from now on.

The more Mark cools down over this, the more inclined I am to think he'll just get on with the job & see out whats prob his last year in F1 in high spirits, & tbh, who could blame him. I like Mark, he's an honest chap, he's a good racer & well able to battle, he always makes time for a chat on the grid walk & he speaks from his heart. To think two years ago he went into the last race leading Vettel & could have been a world champion, & he never really recovered from that I think. He's looking sharp this year though, he will certainly fancy one or two more wins before hanging up his helmet

BostonB

I wonder though if he out in front and the team tells him to slow down, and Vettles behind, or indeed there someone behind he could take some time out of for Vettle, will he do that. I suspect not.

Myrddin

BostonB wrote: »

I wonder though if he out in front and the team tells him to slow down, and Vettles behind, or indeed there someone behind he could take some time out of for Vettle, will he do that. I suspect not.

A few days ago I'd have made those same points, but as the drama fades & Marks anger subsides, all he has left is his professionalism. He's a team player as has been mentioned, I'm sure when the dust settles, Mark will want to do his job at RB. Maybe he'll help Seb out when all this is long forgotten, maybe he'll hold a grudge...the next eight months will tell us

BostonB

As I think I said earlier. Does he go for broke, his last chance of getting F1 titles, wins etc. Or continue to be the team player. Which gives him better options after F1.

The way I see it, they had an agreement before the race to hold station after the final pit stop, and why wouldn't Seb agree? He was on pole, he would have first option on pits, and even if Webber went onto a different strategy, he would be further back the field and could be used as a sighter for deciding when to pit himself.

Unfortunately, with all these things in his favour, he somehow managed to find himself behind Webber after the final stop, and that didn't make Seb a happy boy.

Myrddin

BostonB wrote: »

As I think I said earlier. Does he go for broke, his last chance of getting F1 titles, wins etc. Or continue to be the team player. Which gives him better options after F1.

It'll depend on the next few races. If he can keep Vettel at bay & stay with him points wise, Mark could be unpredictable & just go for it. But if Vettel eeks out a lead, I'd wager Mark will play the team game, he won't let himself down & he'll be looking to keep his options open for life after F1

BostonB

I expect you're right.

Scotty #

EnterNow wrote: »

do you think Mark was naive to assume Vettel would stick to his word?

I doubt Vettel gave his word about anything, but regardless, there is no way on earth that Mark assumed Vettel would stick to it. They have both broke agreements and disobeyed instructions too many times in the past so I don't see why this race would be any different.

EnterNow wrote: »

Do you think Mark should have ignored all the agreements & orders?

Well, Mark hasn't always stuck to agreements in the past but I don't think his personality allows him to be as ruthless as Vettel. If he was more selfish and ruthless then maybe he'd have won a title or two.

There is a big difference between a 24 year old (3 times world champion none the less) disobeying orders and a 37 year old veteran doing it.

James Hunt

Along with the wide range of fulsome apologies, it's interesting to consider Dr Marko's comments that Seb is 'distressed' about it, and "I don't think he'll do that again".

Maybe he underestimates Vettel's ruthlessness. Or maybe it wasn't ruthlessness, but something rather more juvenile?

Too much analysis methinks.

the culture of deference

Scotty # wrote: »

Well, Mark hasn't always stuck to agreements in the past but I don't think his personality allows him to be as ruthless as Vettel. If he was more selfish and ruthless then maybe he'd have won a title or two.

Mark's a driver you would love to have a pint with. Korea 2010 cost him the title. In 2011 the car and the aero gave Seb the edge. 2012 title should have been Fernando's.

Mark should win Monaco, Silverstone and Germany but now he is 14 points behind Seb instead of level.

amacca

the culture of deference wrote: »

Mark's a driver you would love to have a pint with. Korea 2010 cost him the title. In 2011 the car and the aero gave Seb the edge. 2012 title should have been Fernando's.

Mark should win Monaco, Silverstone and Germany but now he is 14 points behind Seb instead of level.

I would dearly love to see him come out on top this season

Himself and Massa would be two very popular world champions imo...then again i cant help rooting for the underdogs

the culture of deference

Red Bull maintain they never favoured Sebastian Vettel in Sepang despite confirming that the German had more horsepower than his team-mate in the closing stages.

The Red Bull saga has dominated headlines for the past week ever since Vettel disobeyed orders to hold station behind Mark Webber in last Sunday's Malaysian GP.



But instead of doing just that, the German stormed by with ten laps remaining, stealing the grand prix victory from the Australian.
However, it appears it was never going to be a fair fight as Red Bull had told Webber to cut his engine more than Vettel's.



"After speaking with Christian, it seems Mark was told to turn down the wick on his engine, but the team didn't tell Sebastian to do the same thing," Bernie Ecclestone told the The Mail on Sunday.
Red Bull have confirmed the F1 supremo's claims.

Webber isn't going to win the title so he should just **** the team off at this stage tbh.

Jordan 199

I'm guessing was one of the reasons Vettel went against team orders was that when he saw Alonso retire, he had the opportunity to build a bigger points gap between himself and Alonso and that's what he did.

ottostreet

Yep, I agree, I think Alonso's retirement made Vettel even more determined to open up a bigger lead.

Myrddin

I think whats been said about it has been said, there's good points been made for & against what Seb did, & good points made in defense of Mark too. At this stage though I think the thing needs to be forgotten about, roll on the next race

ScumLord

EnterNow wrote: »

At this stage though I think the thing needs to be forgotten about, roll on the next race

Mark and Seb on the front of the grid so we can see where they stand. :pac:

the culture of deference

EnterNow wrote: »

I think whats been said about it has been said, there's good points been made for & against what Seb did, & good points made in defense of Mark too. At this stage though I think the thing needs to be forgotten about, roll on the next race

Yea roll on the season with the red bulls at each others throats.

It will not end well for red bull, but for us fans it will be electric.

vectra

the culture of deference wrote: »

Yea roll on the season with the red bulls at each others throats.

It will not end well for red bull, but for us fans it will be electric.

Which is what we would all like to see but it would be unlikely as RB could manipulate each cars settings as the race progresses from the pitwall

recyclebin

vectra wrote: »

Which is what we would all like to see but it would be unlikely as RB could manipulate each cars settings as the race progresses from the pitwall

The pitwall can't change anything remotely. The driver has to do it manually. The only way they can keep them apart is having different pit stop strategies.

vectra

recyclebin wrote: »

The pitwall can't change anything remotely. The driver has to do it manually. The only way they can keep them apart is having different pit stop strategies.

you mean to say the engineers and techies have no way of changing settings while the car is on track??

amacca

vectra wrote: »

you mean to say the engineers and techies have no way of changing settings while the car is on track??

yeah, I always thought (perhaps mistakenly) they could turn up or turn down engine/settings change maps etc with the click of a mouse via radio from the pits

then again in that case why the need for radio calls telling the driver to twiddle knob a to setting b......unless the radio wasn't working and it had to be done manually?

stevenmu

I think it's a regulation that only the driver is allowed adjust the settings, the team can only get telemetry back from the car.

donspeekinglesh

It was allowed for a season or so. 2002 maybe. David Coulthard won in Monaco because the team were able to remotely fix a fault.

Scotty #

SV said in todays press conference that while he was sorry he disobeyed team orders, he was not sorry for taking the victory from MW and he would probably do it next time too. He said Mark did not deserve the win and he will never ever apologise for winning.

Glad to see he's honest about it at last.

Charlie-Bravo

Scotty # wrote: »

SV said in todays press conference that while he was sorry he disobeyed team orders, he was not sorry for taking the victory from MW and he would probably do it next time too. He said Mark did not deserve the win and he will never ever apologise for winning.

Glad to see he's honest about it at last.

Well that's that then - Vettle and Webber will be racing each other for the rest of the season, and Webber will be out of a job come season end as he is a man of principle and won't play second fiddle to SV.

lolie

astrofluff wrote: »

Well that's that then - Vettle and Webber will be racing each other for the rest of the season, and Webber will be out of a job come season end as he is a man of principle and won't play second fiddle to SV.

Good to hear the drivers so honest about it, if what was said about Webber in Brazil is true then he cant complain one bit.

The real winner in all this should be us the viewers, with racing to the flag instead of all this 'multi' nonsense.

Myrddin

astrofluff wrote: »

Well that's that then - Vettle and Webber will be racing each other for the rest of the season, and Webber will be out of a job come season end as he is a man of principle and won't play second fiddle to SV.

I'd say he'll more than likely be out of a job because RB won't want him there by the end of this season.

Scotty #

lolie wrote: »

The real winner in all this should be us the viewers, with racing to the flag instead of all this 'multi' nonsense.

+1

Whatever your feelings on the matter, there is no denying that this has been a huge boost to F1.

Webber was finished with RB this year regardless. I'd bet his replacement will be an F1 rookie already on RedBulls payroll.

the culture of deference

Scotty # wrote: »

+1

Whatever your feelings on the matter, there is no denying that this has been a huge boost to F1.

Webber was finished with RB this year regardless. I'd bet his replacement will be an F1 rookie already on RedBulls payroll.

Hulkenburg or Bianchi in the other seat, Seb is there until 2016.

Jordan 199

lolie wrote: »

The real winner in all this should be us the viewers, with racing to the flag instead of all this 'multi' nonsense.

Yes indeed. And so will Bernie E

lolie

Jordan 191 wrote: »

Yes indeed. And so will Bernie E

If only ferrari done the same

lolie

Scotty # wrote: »

+1

Whatever your feelings on the matter, there is no denying that this has been a huge boost to F1.

Webber was finished with RB this year regardless. I'd bet his replacement will be an F1 rookie already on RedBulls payroll.

It could very well be Webbers last year, he said himself he's not interested in moving to a smaller team.
He probably knows at this stage he hasnt got what it takes to beat vettel over a whole season.
2010 was his year but he let it slip.
He's starting to look like another coulthard only more likeable.

Andrew76

lolie wrote: »

The real winner in all this should be us the viewers, with racing to the flag instead of all this 'multi' nonsense.

Yep, with no more team orders for the end of a race hopefully we see some proper fighting on track.

Just came across this cool video showing on-board footage of the 'battle' between them. Some balls on Vettel going for an overtake on the wall side @ 300 km/h. :cool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrVaADyuAWM