Referendum for Irish Unity 2022

Madam

ONeill2013 wrote: »

in terms of the land of Ulster, approx. 43% of it is in ROI and 57% is in N.Ireland. There is no need for it to be referred to as British because a great deal of it isn't.

Och I know that(I'm originally from Donegal)! Facts are facts though and Unionists claim their land as Ulster and British when we know it isn't but for the foreseeable future there's nothing we can do about that:(

maccored

what kind of logic is that? You ask why not call 6 counties of ireland Ulster, when really there are 9. ask the other three counties how they feel about being classed as unionist. that has nothing to do with the pedantry about what the island of ireland is called.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There are 32 counties in Ireland but the 26 are still called Ireland. You stop calling your country Ireland and the unionists will stop calling theirs Ulster.

R P McMurphy

I have noticed in the last year or so a lot more Ulster province flags flying in Cavan, Mongahan and Donegal. Some sort of reclamation of the name of the province going on?

Iwasfrozen

maccored wrote: »

what kind of logic is that? You ask why not call 6 counties of ireland Ulster, when really there are 9. ask the other three counties how they feel about being classed as unionist. that has nothing to do with the pedantry about what the island of ireland is called.

And you can't call 26 counties Ireland when really there are 32, it's the exact same logic.

Chuck Stone

R P McMurphy wrote: »

I have noticed in the last year or so a lot more Ulster province flags flying in Cavan, Mongahan and Donegal. Some sort of reclamation of the name of the province going on?

They seem to be more prevalent at Ulster Rugby games too so there might be a little more 'sense of province' across the border too in people who'd largely be pro-Union.

R P McMurphy

Chuck Stone wrote: »

They seem to be more prevalent at Ulster Rugby games too so there might be a little more 'sense of province' across the border too in people who'd largely be pro-Union.

I know what you are saying there but I dont think that is it in relation to the last year or so. Seem to adorn a fair few pubs which wouldnt be rugby venues. Maybe related to the ulster championship or something

Rubeter

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Only if republicans stop calling their country Ireland.

And you can't call 26 counties Ireland when really there are 32, it's the exact same logic.

No it is not the exact same logic.
Ireland can refer to either the country named Ireland or the island named Ireland, the "northern state" is named Northern Ireland not Ulster, Ulster is a 9 county province.

Iwasfrozen

Rubeter wrote: »

No it is not the exact same logic.
Ireland can refer to either the country named Ireland or the island named Ireland, the "northern state" is named Northern Ireland not Ulster, Ulster is a 9 county province.

• Ireland takes up the majority of Ireland (but not all of it) and is thus named Ireland.
• Northern Ireland takes up the majority of Ulster (but not all of it) and thus it can be named Ulster.

Rubeter

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

• Ireland takes up the majority of Ireland (but not all of it) and is thus named Ireland.
• Northern Ireland takes up the majority of Ulster (but not all of it) and thus it can be named Ulster.

What kind of nonsense is that?
The island is named Ireland, NI is not named Ulster.
You can call it anything you please but that does not mean it is correct to do so.
Your post above isn't even being consistent in your two comparisons, you have to change the wording to even attempt to make the second sentence fit.

To be the same logic you should be able to say:
Ireland takes up the majority of Ireland (but not all of it) and is thus named Ireland.
Northern Ireland takes up the majority of Ulster (but not all of it) and is thus named Ulster.
But you cannot say that because it is not named Ulster.

Conclusion: No it is not the exact same logic.

Iwasfrozen

Rubeter wrote: »

What kind of nonsense is that?
The island is named Ireland, NI is not named Ulster.
You can call it anything you please but that does not mean it is correct to do so.
Your post above isn't even being consistent in your two comparisons, you have to change the wording to even attempt to make the second sentence fit.

To be the same logic you should be able to say:
Ireland takes up the majority of Ireland (but not all of it) and is thus named Ireland.
Northern Ireland takes up the majority of Ulster (but not all of it) and is thus named Ulster.
But you cannot say that because it is not named Ulster.

Conclusion: No it is not the exact same logic.

You're missing the point. My argument is that it can be named Ulster under the same logic that this country is named Ireland. I'm not arguing that it is because obviously it's not.

Rubeter

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You're missing the point. My argument is that it can be named Ulster under the same logic that this country is named Ireland. I'm not arguing that it is because obviously it's not.

Then it shouldn't be referred to as such.

Iwasfrozen

Rubeter wrote: »

Then it shouldn't be referred to as such.

Of course it should, by that same logic Ireland shouldn't be referred to as Ireland. Or the US as America.

junder

Really what it's up to the individual, if I call Northern Ireland, ulster what can be done about it except maybe a strongly worded post on a Internet forum

CelticDragon7

Well after some calls for a poll on this issue (Irish Unification) I did try to create one in 'After Hours' not sure if that is the proper place but since there is no option here to create a poll, I thought I would give it a go and then I was going to link this thread! But unfortunately "This subject has been covered many times" and the thread was closed almost as quick as it was posted. Fair enough, although it would have been interesting to see the results of such a poll as although I am sure the 'topic' has been covered many times before on boards ie, I can't seem to find a recent boards ie 'poll' on the issue! (But if there is one, then I would be grateful if someone could point it out! Thanks.

Lastly, I thank you all for the comments of this thread and I have greatly enjoyed reading them and even the off-topic discussion as well!

Paramite Pie

Rubeter wrote: »

Conclusion: No it is not the exact same logic.

It is actually the same logic to be fair. It is the island of Ireland and the nations on the island are the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. If someone in the North referred to their nation as simply Ireland I'd be peeved. I can understand where they're coming from.

ROI is a bit of a mouthful though. When I was in South Korea everyone there just referred to it as Korea. Not South Korea or Republic of Korea.... sometimes it's just easier. Honestly people shouldn't read into these things too much though. Political correctness can be irksome.

Rubeter

Paramite Pie wrote: »

It is actually the same logic to be fair. It is the island of Ireland and the nations on the island are the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. If someone in the North referred to their nation as simply Ireland I'd be peeved. I can understand where they're coming from.

ROI is a bit of a mouthful though. When I was in South Korea everyone there just referred to it as Korea. Not South Korea or Republic of Korea.... sometimes it's just easier. Honestly people shouldn't read into these things too much though. Political correctness can be irksome.

To be pc about it, the nations are Ireland and Northern Ireland, there is no country named The Republic of Ireland.
You admit you would be annoyed if some people called NI, Ireland, yet when someone from Donegal complains about the term Ulster you say it's the "pc" that is irksome. Hmmm.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Of course it should, by that same logic Ireland shouldn't be referred to as Ireland. Or the US as America.

Of course Ireland should be referred to as Ireland that is the name of the country.

ONeill2013

I don't know why unionists want to refer to Northern Ireland as Ulster anyway, nationalists never mention it unless it's involving sport. The name derives from the Irish Ulaidh tribes from the Antrim/Down area of ancient Ireland anyway.

Iwasfrozen

Rubeter wrote: »

Of course Ireland should be referred to as Ireland that is the name of the country.

Yes it is and my argument is if the republic can be called Ireland then Northern Ireland can be called Ulster. It's the exact same logic. You just don't like it.

Paramite Pie

Rubeter wrote: »

To be pc about it, the nations are Ireland and Northern Ireland, there is no country named The Republic of Ireland.
You admit you would be annoyed if some people called NI, Ireland, yet when someone from Donegal complains about the term Ulster you say it's the "pc" that is irksome. Hmmm.

Who says what about Donegal? I never said that. I never mentioned Ulster or Donegal in my post. I also think the term Ulster for NI is inappropriate to those in Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan. Please don't put words in my mouth. It's blatantly obvious I never said that as my post is on screen in front of you.

What I actually meant was that any term we use will probably offend someone sooner or later so I've given up worrying about it myself. I was simply saying I understand why other people get upset over these terms.

Rubeter wrote: »

Of course Ireland should be referred to as Ireland that is the name of the country.

Republic of Ireland may be a 'description' but it is used for our international football team. If other people use it when referring to this country that's fine by me.

Rubeter

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes it is and my argument is if the republic can be called Ireland then Northern Ireland can be called Ulster. It's the exact same logic. You just don't like it.

You can personally use any terms you like, but the fact of which are correct and which are incorrect remains.
Your "If you do this, then I can do that" is actually quite childish.

Something I find amusing about your "argument" is that quite a few in the the north actually distance themselves from the terms Ireland and Irish, one particular Unionist poster here won't even admit he lives on the island of Ireland.

maccored

I dont care what you can or cant call the 26 counties of Ireland. Im talking about incorrectly referring to the 6 counties on the other side of the border as being all of Ulster, when theres three more than arent on the other side of the border.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And you can't call 26 counties Ireland when really there are 32, it's the exact same logic.

Happyman42

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes it is and my argument is if the republic can be called Ireland then Northern Ireland can be called Ulster. It's the exact same logic. You just don't like it.

More of the childish Unionist bluster that could really do with being a thing of the past.
It isn't anything approaching 'logic'. It is called 'Ireland' because there is a legitimate constitutional aim to unite the entire island. Anybody living on any part of that island has the right to be part of the Irish nation.
Ulster is 9 counties, not 6.

Iwasfrozen

Rubeter wrote: »

You can personally use any terms you like, but the fact of which are correct and which are incorrect remains.
Your "If you do this, then I can do that" is actually quite childish.

Something I find amusing about your "argument" is that quite a few in the the north actually distance themselves from the terms Ireland and Irish, one particular Unionist poster here won't even admit he lives on the island of Ireland.

The childish line of thinking is your own "You can't call this that because it's not!" As for a unionist calling himself Irish of course he doesn't, he's doesn't live in Ireland! Sure he lives on the island of Ireland but the island of Ireland is not a state. Geographical status does not equal national identity. That would be like a Canadian saying they're American because they're born in the continent of America.

maccored wrote: »

I dont care what you can or cant call the 26 counties of Ireland. Im talking about incorrectly referring to the 6 counties on the other side of the border as being all of Ulster, when theres three more than arent on the other side of the border.

To be logically consistent you have to. Yes Northern Ireland doesn't cover all of Ulster but Ireland doesn't cover all of Ireland. It would save a lot of confusion if we renamed our state. Late Late show special anyone?

Happyman42 wrote: »

More of the childish Unionist bluster that could really do with being a thing of the past.
It isn't anything approaching 'logic'. It is called 'Ireland' because there is a legitimate constitutional aim to unite the entire island. Anybody living on any part of that island has the right to be part of the Irish nation.
Ulster is 9 counties, not 6.

Ireland is 32 counties not 26, If we can call our country Ireland they can call theirs Ulster.

Happyman42

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Ireland is 32 counties not 26, If we can call our country Ireland they can call theirs Ulster.

Read Articles 2 and 3 will you?
The day Unionists stop ignoring the elephant in the room is the day they might be able to start living in the here and now and join the rest of us.
This is just the petulant childishness of Ian Pailey in full rant.

junder

Happyman42 wrote: »

More of the childish Unionist bluster that could really do with being a thing of the past.
It isn't anything approaching 'logic'. It is called 'Ireland' because there is a legitimate constitutional aim to unite the entire island. Anybody living on any part of that island has the right to be part of the Irish nation.
Ulster is 9 counties, not 6.

Ulster is now 6 counties, so called province ceased to exist when 'Ireland' ceased to exist, to say otherwise is just 'childish republican bluster' . Do i really believe that, of course not, what i believe is the real 'childish republican bluster' is the continued need for republicans to reduce every argument about Northern Ireland to a semantical whine about what this island should be referred to. Frankly I don't care what you call it, I have my own mind and my own opinion, if I want to call Northern Ireland, ulster, I will, if I don't want to recognize the term 'island of Ireland' I won't that's my choice if you don't like it tough, end of the day what you going to do about it, sue me? Doubt it, have a hissey fit and write some drivel on an Internet forum about those unionist, Proberly and in the mean time, the world will keep on turning.

Iwasfrozen

Happyman42 wrote: »

Read Articles 2 and 3 will you?
The day Unionists stop ignoring the elephant in the room is the day they might be able to start living in the here and now and join the rest of us.
This is just the petulant childishness of Ian Pailey in full rant.

I've read them before, in fact I think I even quoted them in this thread. What's your point?

Happyman42

junder wrote: »

Ulster is now 6 counties, so called province ceased to exist when 'Ireland' ceased to exist, to say otherwise is just 'childish republican bluster' . Do i really believe that, of course not, what i believe is the real 'childish republican bluster' is the continued need for republicans to reduce every argument about Northern Ireland to a semantical whine about what this island should be referred to. Frankly I don't care what you call it, I have my own mind and my own opinion, if I want to call Northern Ireland, ulster, I will, if I don't want to recognize the term 'island of Ireland' I won't that's my choice if you don't like it tough, end of the day what you going to do about it, sue me? Doubt it, have a hissey fit and write some drivel on an Internet forum about those unionist, Proberly and in the mean time, the world will keep on turning.

Thank you for admitting that Unionists are just calling it what they want to, regardless of the reality of the situation.
I think I'll start calling Monaghan; Bermuda. There! It's warmer already. :cool:

ONeill2013

'Ulster is now 6 counties' probably one of the most absurd things i've ever heard. it's an old province of Ireland that has no real need to be mentioned in 2013 unless you're a historian.

Iwasfrozen

ONeill2013 wrote: »

'Ulster is now 6 counties' probably one of the most absurd things i've ever heard. it's an old province of Ireland that has no real need to be mentioned in 2013 unless you're a historian.

Unionists like to point to Ulster to signify their historic separatism from the rest of Ireland

Happyman42

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Unionists like to point to Ulster to signify their historic separatism from the rest of Ireland

Separatism from simple 1st class primary school reality.

Iwasfrozen

Happyman42 wrote: »

Separatism from simple 1st class primary school reality.

Agreed, but I disagree with you that separatism is a bad thing. Lots of Islands have borders. Ireland included.

junder

Happyman42 wrote: »

Thank you for admitting that Unionists are just calling it what they want to, regardless of the reality of the situation.
I think I'll start calling Monaghan; Bermuda. There! It's warmer already. :cool:

If that makes you happy knock yourself out. Ironically for this obsessiveness amoung republicans about a nine country ulster, it was the English that created the nine county province, so beloved pf republicans today it was done by the Elizabethans for ease of rule

ONeill2013

yet unionists like to use the red hand of Ulster as their symbol which was actually used against the English in the Nine-Years war in the Elizabethan era.

Iwasfrozen

ONeill2013 wrote: »

yet unionists like to use the red hand of Ulster as their symbol which was actually used against the English in the Nine-Years war in the Elizabethan era.

Again to emphasis a separate Ulster identity distinct from the rest of Ireland.

Rubeter

junder wrote: »

Ulster is now 6 counties, so called province ceased to exist when 'Ireland' ceased to exist, to say otherwise is just 'childish republican bluster' . Do i really believe that, of course not, what i believe is the real 'childish republican bluster' is the continued need for republicans to reduce every argument about Northern Ireland to a semantical whine about what this island should be referred to. Frankly I don't care what you call it, I have my own mind and my own opinion, if I want to call Northern Ireland, ulster, I will, if I don't want to recognize the term 'island of Ireland' I won't that's my choice if you don't like it tough, end of the day what you going to do about it, sue me? Doubt it, have a hissey fit and write some drivel on an Internet forum about those unionist, Proberly and in the mean time, the world will keep on turning.

Why is the place you live in called Northern Ireland?
How can you call yourself Northern Irish if you don't recognise that you are from the part of the UK that is named NI because it is in the northern part of the island with the name Ireland?
You know Junder if you and some of your countrymen came and joined us (and by us I mean humanity itself) here in the real world, you might find it's not such a bad place after all.

If the Irish, English, Welsh, Scottish and Loyal Ulster folk were individual people, a certain bunch would be like the paranoid schizophrenic in the corner, denying reality, believing everyone is out to get them and living by a set routine irrespective of how things change around them, thus causing continual friction in the "family".

junder

Rubeter wrote: »

Why is the place you live in called Northern Ireland?
How can you call yourself Northern Irish if you don't recognise that you are from the part of the UK that is named NI because it is in the northern part of the island with the name Ireland?
You know Junder if you and some of your countrymen came and joined us (and by us I mean humanity itself) here in the real world, you might find it's not such a bad place after all.

If the Irish, English, Welsh, Scottish and Loyal Ulster folk were individual people, a certain bunch would be like the paranoid schizophrenic in the corner, denying reality, believing everyone is out to get them and living by a set routine irrespective of how things change around them, thus causing continual friction in the "family".

You mean why don't I adopt your idenity and everything will be ok, why can't you accept that as a ulster Protestant ( oh dear I used that word ulster, how naughty of me) I am different from you and then we can start building a true peace built on mutual respect, and tolerance, a good start would be not denying my humanity just because I don't subsribe to your 'irishmess

Rubeter

junder wrote: »

You mean why don't I adopt your idenity and everything will be ok,

Nope you're totally wrong there, variety is the spice of life.

why can't you accept that as a ulster Protestant ( oh dear I used that word ulster, how naughty of me) I am different from you and then we can start building a true peace built on mutual respect, and tolerance, a good start would be not denying my humanity just because I don't subsribe to your 'irishmess

Well you are a protestant from Ulster, I can't see anything wrong with you refering to yourself as such.
True peace will come when yourself and your country men and women get rid of your paranoia (a paranoia that you have clearly shown with this post of yours).

You bring up tolerance and respect, surely your inability to admit that you live on the island of Ireland says a lot more about your tolerance and respect rather than that of someone who mentions the illogicality of this stance.

Mal-Adjusted

kidneyfan wrote: »

Yes if the capital is moved to Ulster no if not.

Letterkenny it is so.

junder

Rubeter wrote: »

Nope you're totally wrong there, variety is the spice of life.

Well you are a protestant from Ulster, I can't see anything wrong with you refering to yourself as such.
True peace will come when yourself and your country men and women get rid of your paranoia (a paranoia that you have clearly shown with this post of yours).

You bring up tolerance and respect, surely your inability to admit that you live on the island of Ireland says a lot more about your tolerance and respect rather than that of someone who mentions the illogicality of this stance.

Not paranoid, just been a member of boards for a very long time. But either way we are having a semantical argument about what I should call this island. Why do you care, does it affect your life, does it keep you a wake at night, if not move on

Rubeter

junder wrote: »

Not paranoid, just been a member of boards for a very long time. But either way we are having a semantical argument about what I should call this island. Why do you care, does it affect your life, does it keep you a wake at night, if not move on

I would just love to know the reason somebody couldn't bring themselves to admit such a self evident fact.
Someone could go on about tolerance, acceptance, respect.... etc tll the proverbial cows come walking in the door, but being unable to admit that little fact shows their true feelings.

Iwasfrozen

Rubeter wrote: »

I would just love to know the reason somebody couldn't bring themselves to admit such a self evident fact.
Someone could go on about tolerance, acceptance, respect.... etc tll the proverbial cows come walking in the door, but being unable to admit that little fact shows their true feelings.

So you are British then yes? You live on the British Isles. And that is an indisputable fact. If you can bring yourself to ignore this indisputable fact then I'm sure you can see how Junder manages the same.

karma_

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So you are British then yes? You live on the British Isles. And that is an indisputable fact. If you can bring yourself to ignore this indisputable fact then I'm sure you can see how Junder manages the same.

I'm not sure indisputable means what you think it means.

Not one square inch of Ireland, North or South is in Britain. That is an indisputable fact.

Madam

karma_ wrote: »

I'm not sure indisputable means what you think it means.

Not one square inch of Ireland, North or South is in Britain. That is an indisputable fact.

Paradoxially it is in the British Isles - same with NI being in Ulster but not if you see what I mean

karma_

Madam wrote: »

Paradoxially it is in the British Isles - same with NI being in Ulster but not if you see what I mean

Nothing paradoxical about that at all, BI is strictly a geographical term.

maccored

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

To be logically consistent you have to. Yes Northern Ireland doesn't cover all of Ulster but Ireland doesn't cover all of Ireland

Logically consistant to a two year old maybe, but no - you dont 'have to'. Plus, "but Ireland doesn't cover all of Ireland" sounds like something out of Father Ted.

junder

The term 'island of Ireland' is yet another way for republicans to refuse to acknowledge the existence of Northern Ireland, I don't identify with Ireland or being Irish, so why should I acknowledge the term 'island of Ireland' espically as, as far I'm concerned 'Ireland' is only 26 county's. I don't use the term 'the British isles' so why should I use the term 'the island of Ireland'

karma_

junder wrote: »

The term 'island of Ireland' is yet another way for republicans to refuse to acknowledge the existence of Northern Ireland, I don't identify with Ireland or being Irish, so why should I acknowledge the term 'island of Ireland' espically as, as far I'm concerned 'Ireland' is only 26 county's. I don't use the term 'the British isles' so why should I use the term 'the island of Ireland'

It's not a term it just is. The real irony, and one which I admit to finding amusing is, to the vast majority of people in the UK you are as Irish as me.

junder

karma_ wrote: »

It's not a term it just is. The real irony, and one which I admit to finding amusing is, to the vast majority of people in the UK you are as Irish as me.

That's not irony that's lack of education.

karma_

junder wrote: »

That's not irony that's lack of education.

For someone in your shoes, it's about as ironic as it gets.

Doublelime

Yes because Ireland loses way to much money to NI. People go their and buy tons of things. All that tax goes to Britain. It's a leakage from our economy. We deserve that land back.