Bought faulty car 4m lying person on web:Have I rights?Sue seller/website/Regulator

sweettooth14

I bought a car that never drove after the first day the seller drove it to my house. It has an electrical fault and is completely dead. I asked seller about faults or problems with it and she mentioned a scratch on the door but said nothing else. I paid 750 euro for it. I have the sellers name, address and a receipt. I can't drive so was buying it to learn. It never drove once. Even after putting in a new battery it went flat within hours.

The fault is that it runs fine until you leave it overnight, then it won't move, even after a new battery. There is an electrical fault. I asked the seller but she did not tell me
I can't drive and bought car to learn. I just sat in the car while seller drove it.

Can I bring a case to the small claims court?
Who would I sue?
1.The girl I bought it off for being dishonest when I asked about faults with the car.
2.Donedeal website: Are they responsible for faulty merchandise?
Should they not tell people they are not responsible for faulty merchandise?
3. The Consumer Regulator for not warning consumers about buying off these websites and how you have no rights?

SCOOP 64

Did you test drive the car ?
it would be nothing to do with Donedeal, the agreement is with you and the seller of the car.
Donedeal is just a advertising site ,they are not seling you anything.
private sales, never take anyones word for it .
"YOU" have to decide whether the car is good or bad.
IF you want any guarantee you have to buy from trade.
most private sales are sold as seen . you say you have a receipt ,does it say "sold as seen".

Kenny Logins

sweettooth14 wrote: »

I bought a car that never drove after the first day the seller drove it to my house. It has an electrical fault and is completely dead. I asked seller about faults or problems with it and she mentioned a scratch on the door but said nothing else. I paid 750 euro for it. I have the sellers name, address and a receipt.

Can I bring a case to the small claims court?
Who would I sue?
1.The girl I bought it off for being dishonest when I asked about faults with the car.
2.Donedeal website: Are they responsible for faulty merchandise?
Should they not tell people they are not responsible for faulty merchandise?
3. The Consumer Regulator for not warning consumers about buying off these websites and how you have no rights?

Did the battery go flat while it was outside your house? Don't know who you could sue for that..

sweettooth14

No my receipt does not say "sold as seen". What does that mean?
Do I have any rights?

drunkmonkey

sweettooth14 wrote: »

No my receipt does not say seen as sold. What does that mean?
Do I have any rights?

If you had of read the done deal website, this information could have saved you buying a lemon http://help.donedeal.ie/top-tips/buying-a-car

No you have no rights in this case. Caveat Emptor (Buyer Beware).

seamus

It's a private sale. This means that your options are limited. The seller is under no obligation to reveal faults to you and asking a vague question like "is there anything wrong with the car" doesn't really obligate them to go through everything which may be wrong with the car.

In this scenario, sold as seen is implied so unless you can prove the seller went out of their way to hide faults from you, you have basically no comeback.

The legal route is a long and potentially very expensive one for the sake of a €750 car. Small claims court doesn't apply here.

sweettooth14

I think they did go out of their way to disguise the faults. The car will not go unless its jump started.So, it was jump started before I arrived.

I can't drive and was going to use it to learn.

Why doesn't small claims court apply?

seamus

sweettooth14 wrote: »

I think they did go out of their way to disguise the faults. The car will not go unless its jump started.So, it was jump started before I arrived.

Are you willing to spend months in the court system paying solicitors €100/hour in order to get your €750 back? And are you sure enough that you would win and not cost yourself more money? That's really the nub of it. There's no simple mechanism by which you can get your money back. Once the deal is done, it's done.

Better off getting a quote from a garage to fix the problem and then contacting the seller asking them to cover it. They'll probably tell you to go jump, but you've nothing to lose.

goldenhoarde

Get someone to check all the lights - external or internal such as glove box, lights above mirror etc.

Most likely a fault or blown bulb that is draining the battery overnight.

My sis in law had this issue but once she drove the car which she did every day that car went fine. It had to be jumped if it was left more than 1 day so maybe the seller was unaware of this.

Turned out to be the glove compartment light.

ABajaninCork

Why didn't you take a mechanic with you? If you couldn't drive, then you should take a qualified driver with you to test drive the car.

As far as I can see, I'm afraid this is going to be an expensive mistake. There's no comeback as others have pointed out, as this was a private sale.

sweettooth14

A qualified mechanic still can't find out what is wrong with the car but it still won't go. I still don't know what's wrong with it. It just won't go.

eldamo

Have you contacted the seller and have they refused to deal with you?

StompToWork

Kinda reminds me of the Pakleds!

Anyway, As someone else has already suggested, I would get a qoute from a mechanic to fix it up. Honestly, it sounds like something pretty simple. A mechanic will have this sorted in no time.

There is no harm in asking the seller if they would cover maybe even some of the cost of fixing.

The stark reality of car ownership is that things go wrong with cars. I am sure you realise that €750 is REALLY cheap for a car. At that money, I wouldn't expect it to be perfect.

Out of curiosity, what kind of a car is it?

And to answer your original question, I am afraid, you don't have a huge amount of rights. Anything you could do would be really expensive to drag through court and essentially not worth it.

sweettooth14

1998 VW POLO. I have had a mechanic look at it three times and he cannot find anything wrong with it. It appears fine but won't go.

Kenny Logins

Try a different mechanic.

testicle

Have you tried putting the key into the ignition?

Kerry_2008

Could be a dodgy alternator.

StompToWork

Did the Mechanic suggest putting a brand new battery in it after he could find nothing wrong? If not, definitely get another mechanic!! But before that, I would consider buying a new battery, putting that in, and seeing if it will work.

On second thoughts, definitely get a different mechanic. A qualified mechanic will not simply throw his hands in the air proclaiming "I don't know what's wrong with it". He/she will either tell you what the problem is and tell you how much they will charge to fix it, or else they will suggest that whatever is wrong with it is uneconomical to fix and suggest that the car shoudl be written off. For most electrical faults, the latter will hardly ever be the case.

Crasp

this it? http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/4722674

Kenny Logins

You said here that when you put a new battery in it went perfectly, so it can't be too serious a problem...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83663081&postcount=3

johnty56

Charge up battery, and when not using the car get yourself a 13 spanner and disconnect it. Connect it up again when you want to use the car, Doesn't sound like its worth spending money on!!!

Ash.J.Williams

Easter is a time to remember the 200 or so "deities" that died and arose 3 days later, seriously there is freakin loads of them!!!

farmer_dave

It is not a mechanic you need. It is an auto electrician. Subtle but important difference. I'd be confident that they will be able to fix the issue for you.

It looks like part of the harness/wiring is shorting against the frame and draining the battery. Auto electricians are best placed to detect a broken wire which is shorting against the chassis/body.

Don't give up on it yet. The fact that it runs on a fresh battery indicates that there is something draining the battery.

endacl

sweettooth14 wrote: »

Why doesn't small claims court apply?

Private seller. Small claims procedure provides a low cost, straightforward remedy when dealing with businesses. I think you're out of luck. Repair or scrap and put it down to experience. If you don't know a good car from a lemon, pay a mechanic to look it over in future. It'll be 50 quid well spent, and you'll probably get a better deal, as a mechanic will be immune to potential seller twaddle.

lightspeed

The below is taken from citizens information.ie

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/motoring/advice_on_buying_a_used_car_in_ireland.html


"It is an offence under both road traffic legislation and the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980 to sell a car which is not roadworthy. Also, the seller is required to give you accurate and truthful information in answer to any questions that you ask. However, a private seller does not have to provide information that is not requested. If you have a grievance after buying a car you should complain to the seller first. If you are not satisfied with the response you may be able to take legal action against the seller. Where the car you bought is unroadworthy, you could also refer the matter to the Garda Síochána".

If i was you i would go to your local Garda station or ask a Garda if you know one personally to give the seller a call and advise of the legislation. Take the necessary legal action and advise the seller that in addition to the repair bill to get the car roadworthy, she will also be responsible for your solicitors legal costs and perhaps even loss of earnings if you have to miss work to attend court.

valleyoftheunos

lightspeed wrote: »

The below is taken from citizens information.ie

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/motoring/advice_on_buying_a_used_car_in_ireland.html


"It is an offence under both road traffic legislation and the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980 to sell a car which is not roadworthy. Also, the seller is required to give you accurate and truthful information in answer to any questions that you ask. However, a private seller does not have to provide information that is not requested. If you have a grievance after buying a car you should complain to the seller first. If you are not satisfied with the response you may be able to take legal action against the seller. Where the car you bought is unroadworthy, you could also refer the matter to the Garda Síochána".

If i was you i would go to your local Garda station or ask a Garda if you know one personally to give the seller a call and advise of the legislation. Take the necessary legal action and advise the seller that in addition to the repair bill to get the car roadworthy, she will also be responsible for your solicitors legal costs and perhaps even loss of earnings if you have to miss work to attend court.

A car that doesn't start isn't necessarily unroadworthy.

OP you are in a difficult situation here, from what you say the seller may not have been entirely honest with you but for €750 its not really worth going down the legal route.

A thread on this in the Motors forum might help you find the fault and get it fixed.

jd80

Check the earth connections

Galadriel

OP the same thing happened to me a few years ago, the battery drains after 3 days if not being used :eek: have had it to 2 auto-electricians, 2 mechanics and nada..they say no drain

I was really angry that I was duped at the time but didn't bother contacting them because I knew they would have told me where to go.

Still have the car...I will figure it out if it kills me!!!

farmer_dave

Okay, I've had a look on the web as this drain (parasitic drain as it is known in the trade) has been annoying me. It should be simple to fix.

Try these things:
1. Check if the boot light and glove box lights always go out when boot lid/glove box door is closed. This might be enough to cause your issues.

2. From reading Google, the most likely source of your problems is the stereo. Is it an aftermarket unit? Can you or a friend remove the unit for a period of days to check this?

Del2005

lightspeed wrote: »

The below is taken from citizens information.ie

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/motoring/advice_on_buying_a_used_car_in_ireland.html


"It is an offence under both road traffic legislation and the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980 to sell a car which is not roadworthy. Also, the seller is required to give you accurate and truthful information in answer to any questions that you ask. However, a private seller does not have to provide information that is not requested. If you have a grievance after buying a car you should complain to the seller first. If you are not satisfied with the response you may be able to take legal action against the seller. Where the car you bought is unroadworthy, you could also refer the matter to the Garda Síochána".

If i was you i would go to your local Garda station or ask a Garda if you know one personally to give the seller a call and advise of the legislation. Take the necessary legal action and advise the seller that in addition to the repair bill to get the car roadworthy, she will also be responsible for your solicitors legal costs and perhaps even loss of earnings if you have to miss work to attend court.

It's nothing to do with the Gardaí, it was a private sale and the OP never asked about electrical issues. The car isn't dangerous, it could be argued it's the safest car around as it doesn't start:P.

The OP will never get a cent out of court for the car. They paid €750 for it and never got it checked over, even the most basic of checks would have turned up a non starting issue. And even if they do get a result from court, which will cost the OP a lot more than €750 in time and effort, actually getting money from the seller is another a problem which will cost the OP more, in both time and money.

lightspeed

But the NCT is what decides if a car is roadworthy so if it cant currently pass an NCT test then how can you make the argument in court that the car is roadworthy?

If the judge rules that payment is due to be paid by the defendant and he still refuses to pay, further action can be taken such as seeking an attachment of earnings. I reckon if he took court proceedings, the seller would probably give in and refund the money.

valleyoftheunos

lightspeed wrote: »

But the NCT is what decides if a car is roadworthy so if it cant currently pass an NCT test then how can you make the argument in court that the car is roadworthy?

If the judge rules that payment is due to be paid by the defendant and he still refuses to pay, further action can be taken such as seeking an attachment of earnings. I reckon if he took court proceedings, the seller would probably give in and refund the money.

A faulty battery or starter motor doesn't make a car unroadworthy and it wouldn't be tested by the NCT. Buyer beware applies, a buyer would need to show that the car was actually unroadworthy at the time he bought it and that the seller was dishonest about it.


What if the seller of the car calls his bluff?

SCOOP 64

If i was the seller,reading the circumstance's the buyer brought the car under, i would say "see you court".

lionela

Kenny Logins wrote: »

Try a different mechanic.

Curious,
What does "won't go" mean... when you try to start the engine ...does it even turn over i.e is it attempting to start when you turn the key ???

If you have no response..then there are possible's..ie battery flat, ignition/electrical fault(s)

Or if the engine is running..can you not get the car in motion.... clutch worn or slipping...is it in gear ????

It might help if you explained "won't go" :rolleyes::rolleyes:

lightspeed

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

A faulty battery or starter motor doesn't make a car unroadworthy and it wouldn't be tested by the NCT. Buyer beware applies, a buyer would need to show that the car was actually unroadworthy at the time he bought it and that the seller was dishonest about it.


What if the seller of the car calls his bluff?

Was the car sold with an NCT certificate?

Yes the car may have been sold as seen but it is illegal under the sales and goods act to sell a car that is not roadworthy. If it did not have a valid NCT certificate at the time of sale, then how can the seller argue that the car was roadworthy at the time of sale?

If the car did not have a valid NCT certificate then it was not legally recognised as roadworthy. The proof of this is that if the car had have been able to drive without an NCT cert and the buyer was stopped by the Gardai, the Gardai could legally take car as it would have been deemed to be unroadworthy.

dan_ep82

If you read the NCT small print it will state that passing an NCT does not mean the car is roadworthy,so that one is out.

The other part is if the seller was not connected to the motor trade, did not refuse a mechanic to be brought along and you cannot prove that he/she covered up a dangerous defect you have very little ground to stand on. The hard part is proving the person knew of the fault. I've had personal experience in this kind of a situation and this was basically the legal advice I was given at the time. I highly recommend giving a solicitor a call to see where you stand.

If it was me,I'd fix the car. A mechanic should be able to test all the wires for power with the key out and ignition off.Only a few will actually have power with the key out.

farmer_dave

Where is the OP?

OP, a quick trawl through Google shows that this issue is mostly down to badly installed aftermarket stereos or alarms. Does your car have either of these? I'm guessing that it has an aftermarket stereo fitted and that is causing the drain.

Remove it, charge up your battery and report back.

There is a known fault with these cars whereby a badly installed stereo will draw enough power from the battery to drain it overnight. Go down this route instead of the courts. The only winner here will be the solicitors.

dan_ep82

The way a stereo usually drains a car is when its hard wired.

Usually there is one wire that will go to the constant 12v+,its the memory wire for the radio stations or to spit a CD out. Sometimes people wire the main headunit to this wire leaving it constantly on. If the light stays on on the facia or the radio turns on with the key out it could be that. Some radio's will turn on with the key out but will drain the battery,better to wire it to the IGN power. Anyone with the slightest electrical mind and a face tester could re-wire it if this was the case.

Could also be the altenator drawing too much power and draining the battery (voltmeter will tell you) or it could be just an old or worn out battery.

valleyoftheunos

lightspeed wrote: »

Was the car sold with an NCT certificate?

Yes the car may have been sold as seen but it is illegal under the sales and goods act to sell a car that is not roadworthy. If it did not have a valid NCT certificate at the time of sale, then how can the seller argue that the car was roadworthy at the time of sale?

If the car did not have a valid NCT certificate then it was not legally recognised as roadworthy. The proof of this is that if the car had have been able to drive without an NCT cert and the buyer was stopped by the Gardai, the Gardai could legally take car as it would have been deemed to be unroadworthy.

Having an NCT certificate is not the legal test of roadworthyness. by your definition a car that has had its cert lapse is now unroadworthy, that reasoning simply isn't correct.

dan_ep82 wrote: »

If you read the NCT small print it will state that passing an NCT does not mean the car is roadworthy,so that one is out.

The other part is if the seller was not connected to the motor trade, did not refuse a mechanic to be brought along and you cannot prove that he/she covered up a dangerous defect you have very little ground to stand on. The hard part is proving the person knew of the fault. I've had personal experience in this kind of a situation and this was basically the legal advice I was given at the time. I highly recommend giving a solicitor a call to see where you stand.

If it was me,I'd fix the car. A mechanic should be able to test all the wires for power with the key out and ignition off.Only a few will actually have power with the key out.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

ted1

Is there w warning light on? Sounds like its an alternator problem

slimjimmc

lightspeed wrote: »

Was the car sold with an NCT certificate?

Yes the car may have been sold as seen but it is illegal under the sales and goods act to sell a car that is not roadworthy. If it did not have a valid NCT certificate at the time of sale, then how can the seller argue that the car was roadworthy at the time of sale?

If the car did not have a valid NCT certificate then it was not legally recognised as roadworthy. The proof of this is that if the car had have been able to drive without an NCT cert and the buyer was stopped by the Gardai, the Gardai could legally take car as it would have been deemed to be unroadworthy.

Not from what I can see in the Act, the Act says that if you buy a car that is dangerous then you can seek redress (i.e. fixed, replaced or your money back). But nowhere in it does it say it's an offence to sell a dangerous car, never mind one that is not roadworthy (even a blown headlamp would make it not worthy to be on the road). It's a very important distinction.

Read it for yourself:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1980/en/act/pub/0016/sec0013.html#sec13


Note: it may be covered by other law, I don't know.



OP, as others have said, get an auto-electrician to check it over. He should be able to find what's discharging the battery easily enough.

valleyoftheunos

The sale of goods and supply of services act doesn't apply to private sellers at any rate so its a totally moot point.

slimjimmc

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

The sale of goods and supply of services act doesn't apply to private sellers at any rate so its a totally moot point.

Is entirely correct?
Many sections explicitly refer to selling in the course of business or buying as a consumer (meaning business contracts). But there appear to be some sections which don't and simply refer to the "seller" or "buyer" so I'm not so sure that precludes private contracts from these sections?

valleyoftheunos

slimjimmc wrote: »

Is entirely correct?
Many sections explicitly refer to selling in the course of business or buying as a consumer (meaning business contracts). But there appear to be some sections which don't and simply refer to the "seller" or "buyer" so I'm not so sure that precludes private contracts from these sections?

In fairness you're right.