Driving in the middle lane

coffee_cake

creedp wrote: »

Why don't you stay in the left lane and progress as normal. .

Because you can't overtake on the left

_Kaiser_

Deleted User wrote: »

When you decide to drive in the middle lane, I must leave the left lane, and cross two lanes just to get passed. That makes no sense.

You're assuming the car in the middle lane is moving slower than you, or maybe you're just speeding? (shock! horror! :eek: )

However for someone like myself I will do the posted limit whenever it's safe/appropriate to do so (or even slightly over) so your example wouldn't apply.

If you were in lane 1 doing 100 gaining on me in lane 2 because I've been held up by something ahead, then chances are I'll be in lane 3 by the time you get there anyway

coffee_cake

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

You're assuming the car in the middle lane is moving slower than you, or maybe you're just speeding? (shock! horror! :eek: )

However for someone like myself I will do the posted limit whenever it's safe/appropriate to do so (or even slightly over) so your example wouldn't apply.

If you were in lane 1 doing 100 gaining on me in lane 2 because I've been held up by something ahead, then chances are I'll be in lane 3 by the time you get there anyway

Hogging the middle/overtaking lane is as illegal as speeding anyway AFAIK or at least it's in the rotr. You also might be doing slightly less than the limit instead of right on the nose
Regardless, gtfo of the middle lane if you're not overtaking

_Kaiser_

ironclaw wrote: »

Emm... Read the signs, anticipate change? If you get caught out like this your not paying attention.

Not so in fairness to him.

Take the N7-M50 approach. All indications would suggest now that you should be in the middle lane for M50 S, but just as you get to the junction you suddenly have to jerk left or you'll be heading for the city. Best option here is to approach in the left lane and continue straight into that M50 S lane - obviously watching for someone who may have been caught out.

Poor design, poor signage. Not the driver's fault at all.

_Kaiser_

bluewolf wrote: »

Hogging the middle/overtaking lane is as illegal as speeding anyway AFAIK or at least it's in the rotr. You also might be doing slightly less than the limit instead of right on the nose
Regardless, gtfo of the middle lane if you're not overtaking

Wrong.. I know what my speedo reads vs real speed and trust me, I'm not doing under the limit if it's safe to do it. I have no time for dawdling or dawdlers.

As I said above, given the random merging/exiting that goes on on the M50 between junctions 6 and 10, poor driving standards generally and complete lack of encforcement, I will do whatever *I* feel is best to keep myself, my car and others safe - regardless of what some rule book says. If that means I move to lane 3 and cruise past the chaos and move back over afterwards then that's what I'll do.

creedp

bluewolf wrote: »

Because you can't overtake on the left

Yes that's the rigid rule .. however unless a cop pulls me I'm not going to go from one side of the motorway to the other and back again because someone in the middle lane decide to stay there even though he is travelling slower that the left lane traffic.

_Kaiser_

creedp wrote: »

Yes that's the rigid rule .. however unless a cop pulls me I'm not going to go from one side of the motorway to the other and back again because someone in the middle lane decide to stay there even though he is travelling slower that the left lane traffic.

Exactly.. in MY book it's far more important to read the situation and the conditions for any given stretch of road and adapt your driving accordingly (whether that's speed up, slow down or move over) than taking the "I was only following orders" approach.

Anan1

creedp wrote: »

Yes that's the rigid rule .. however unless a cop pulls me I'm not going to go from one side of the motorway to the other and back again because someone in the middle lane decide to stay there even though he is travelling slower that the left lane traffic.

While I sympathise with your outlook, undertaking the kind of person who drives in the middle lane can be very dangerous. At least use the horn before drawing alongside to let the clown know that you're there, and always have room on your left.

_Kaiser_

Anan1 wrote: »

While I sympathise with your outlook, undertaking the kind of person who drives in the middle lane can be very dangerous. At least use the horn before drawing alongside to let the clown know that you're there, and always have room on your left.

Risk there is they panic when they hear the horn and swerve.. possibly into you or someone else!

Anan1

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Risk there is they panic when they hear the horn and swerve.. possibly into you or someone else!

That's why I said before drawing alongside! But yeah, idiots can be unpredictable.

ironclaw

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Take the N7-M50 approach. All indications would suggest now that you should be in the middle lane for M50 S, but just as you get to the junction you suddenly have to jerk left or you'll be heading for the city. Best option here is to approach in the left lane and continue straight into that M50 S lane - obviously watching for someone who may have been caught out.

Poor design, poor signage. Not the driver's fault at all.

Nope, clear as day the signage is the centre lane is for M50 South. If your in the left lane your actually more in the wrong as drivers (in the correct lane) have to avoid fools who think they know better and stay in the left lane. Proper driving dictates you follow all the rules and road markings by choosing to ignore them you are adding to the workload of those that do. The road is clearly marked on the road itself about 200m before the junction and again above in the signage.

Irregardless of how badly laid out that junction is, a driver should not have to anticipate (Even though they have to) that a driver will jerk right when they decide (wrongly) to sit in the left lane.

And there's another thing, why do people panic when they are in the wrong lane? Just take the exit and go around. The most it will cost you is probably 10 min (An expense for your own lack of attention / stupidity) Why risk a collision?

IK09

Ye think yer class with yer middle lanes

Irish Steve

Long overdue to introduce something similar to the system used in the States on some of their multi lane roads.

Working on the basis of the M50, which is 4 lane for most of its length, there would be a barrier from about 600 metres before to 600 metres after each intersection between lanes 2 and 3, so 2 lanes past each intersection would be dedicated to through traffic, with duck and dive merchants prevented from ducking and diving by the barrier. Not perfect, but it would solve some of the issues of the late diver that goes from 3 to the exit on top of the junction, and it would help to get the joining traffic up to speed before allowing access to lanes 3 & 4 when joining.

Doesn't solve the problem of the Lane 2 hogs, especially the slow ones that insist on sitting there doing 60 Kph regardless of what's around them.

The Americans seem to have taken the line of least resistance, and allow passing on both sides, which recognises that it happens, rather than the crazy scenario here which is that its illegal, but happens anyway, especially with the lane 1 and 2 scenario on the M50, as nobody seems to know exactly how Lane 1 is supposed to work in the 4 lane sections.

Another useful change for many junctions would be to have the same concept at lights, turn left on red if safe or otherwise restricted could make traffic flow at a number of junctions a lot simpler.

Then again, some traffic planners with some sense would help, there's a very dangerous situation at Ashbourne by Dunnes, where the lanes from Dunnes are marked left or right, but there is a staggered straight across to the left, but if the left filter arrow is on, anyone going staggered across from the left lane, which is the natural lane to do so, is crossing traffic that still has a green light from Slane direction. It's been reported to Gardai, the RSA, the local authority, and councillors, but nothing has been changed. The RSA said "not our area of responsibility". WTF, I thought they were the ROAD SAFETY Authority, so if something is unsafe, how can it be outside of their responsibility.

Perhaps a penalty point for incorrect lane discipline, with CCTV cameras being able to provide proof, and a change to the system to require a driving test for people with 12 points would sort out the way too many people that should never have got driving licences in the first place.

OK, a bit off initial subject, but the basis of the thread seem to be poor driving habits or standards that are not legal, I'm sure we could "discuss" plenty more, like HGV's in Lane 2 of motorways, attitudes to red lights ( I blame the school teachers for much of that, they take "crocodiles" of small children across roads, and tell them to "hurry up" even though the light is now red, and never say "Don't do this when you are on your own, it only applies to school groups that are supervised and must stay together". Children learn very young, and if the wrong behaviour is encouraged by "authority", why do we wonder why that same behaviour continues when they get older and start riding bikes, then move on to driving, "Shore, the red don't apply to me, teacher told me that long time ago"!)

corktina

creedp wrote: »

Why don't you stay in the left lane and progress as normal. I'll never understand the rigid application of rules as against a more common sense approach which in this case is infinitely safer. Or maybe someone can explain to me why its safer to cross from the left lane to the right lane via the middle lane and back again simply to maintain your own speed on the left lane.




Only if there is no one overtaking you in the middle lane.




The reason a 2 lane road is upgraded to a 3 lane road is for volume reasons .. it can simply handle a larger volume of traffic more safely. One of those safety issues is that it is easier to merge onto the road as a significant volume of traffic is occupying the middle and right lane. Don't get me wrong I agree staying left unless overtaking is the default rule but I don't engage in unecessary lane hopping on a 3 lane motorway.

no but the guy coming up behind you has to do double the lane hopping because you are driving incorrectly

Davidth88

I learnt to drive in the UK , and drove there for 20 yrs ( with 20k business miles per year for a lot of that time), so I spent a lot of time on motorways.

My take on it , the primary rule of the road here and in the UK is DRIVE ON THE LEFT .

Now on the very very busy motorways in the UK ( M6 between Brum and M62 for example ) , if you were to go into the left lane you would never get out and would be stuck behind a constant stream of HGVs for ever .

If the motorway is not that busy , left lane , then as you pass a junction move out to middle lane to allow merging traffic to join with no issue, also you are almost certainly moving faster than the merging traffic ( I normally cruised at 80mph TBH ).

Here with the vast majority of the motorway being nothing more than HQDC the middle lane debate is almost redundant. What I have noticed is that many of the junctions here the merge space is very very short , not allowing you time to get to speed to join the main carrageway , the worst example being N4 to M50 southbound ( http://maps.google.ie/?ll=53.354855,-6.384344&spn=0.021337,0.038581&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=53.355819,-6.38421&panoid=AUVYvSmvESsXM8-ouhU-zw&cbp=12,189.78,,0,0 )

corktina

Davidth88 wrote: »

Now on the very very busy motorways in the UK ( M6 between Brum and M62 for example ) , if you were to go into the left lane you would never get out and would be stuck behind a constant stream of HGVs for ever .
QUOTE]

Thats not true, I have driven extensively on Europes busy motorways (M4 and M25 in the vicinity of Heathrow and I have never ever had trouble changing to whichever lane I choose. In the UK if you indicate your intentions to pull out , the guy to your right and behind you almost always makes room for you...not so in Ireland unfortunately.

Davidth88

corktina wrote: »

Davidth88 wrote: »

Now on the very very busy motorways in the UK ( M6 between Brum and M62 for example ) , if you were to go into the left lane you would never get out and would be stuck behind a constant stream of HGVs for ever .
QUOTE]

Thats not true, I have driven extensively on Europes busy motorways (M4 and M25 in the vicinity of Heathrow and I have never ever had trouble changing to whichever lane I choose. In the UK if you indicate your intentions to pull out , the guy to your right and behind you almost always makes room for you...not so in Ireland unfortunately.

What I am trying to say ( possibly put it wrongly ) , there is literally a constant stream of HGV's in that lane , so you can't pull in at 70/80mph because that lane is moving at 56mph ( in theory ) , often slower uphills ( but quicker downhills ).

M25 is a special case TBH ,

a) its 4 lanes in many places
b) the variable speed limit is often set at 50mph around LHR .

mitosis

Yep. If they're moronic enough to think it's OK to occupy the centre lane when the left is vacant, you can't know what they might do if they hear a horn.

djimi

Anan1 wrote: »

While I sympathise with your outlook, undertaking the kind of person who drives in the middle lane can be very dangerous. At least use the horn before drawing alongside to let the clown know that you're there, and always have room on your left.

I dont think it makes any odds which side you pass them on tbh. If someone is stupid enough to change lanes without looking then they are as much of a danger to someone who is overtaking on the right as they are to someone who is undertaking on the left.

_Kaiser_

ironclaw wrote: »

Nope, clear as day the signage is the centre lane is for M50 South. If your in the left lane your actually more in the wrong as drivers (in the correct lane) have to avoid fools who think they know better and stay in the left lane. Proper driving dictates you follow all the rules and road markings by choosing to ignore them you are adding to the workload of those that do. The road is clearly marked on the road itself about 200m before the junction and again above in the signage

OK, it's poor attempt at MS Paint time

See attached image. Now according to the overheads, you should stay in the centre lane (yellow in the pic) all the way in to get onto the M50 South.

However just as you get to the M50 junction itself, you have to move left out of nowhere to get to this lane, or you'll be going on the flyover heading for the city (blue)

What I'm suggesting is by staying in the leftmost M50 North lane (green), you can continue on as long as you're watching for others that may get caught out. Better that than cutting across someone who hasn't yet moved left for the M50 North ramp.

It's an imperfect solution to a poor design, but that's what it is. Have a read on the roads forum. Big thread there about it.

Anan1

djimi wrote: »

I dont think it makes any odds which side you pass them on tbh. If someone is stupid enough to change lanes without looking then they are as much of a danger to someone who is overtaking on the right as they are to someone who is undertaking on the left.

People are more used to being passed on the right, the drivers side mirror is more in their field of vision, and they have to move left to leave the motorway.

ironclaw

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

OK, it's poor attempt at MS Paint time

See attached image. Now according to the overheads, you should stay in the centre lane (yellow in the pic) all the way in to get onto the M50 South.

However just as you get to the M50 junction itself, you have to move left out of nowhere to get to this lane, or you'll be going on the flyover heading for the city (blue)

What I'm suggesting is by staying in the leftmost M50 North lane (green), you can continue on as long as you're watching for others that may get caught out. Better that than cutting across someone who hasn't yet moved left for the M50 North ramp.

It's an imperfect solution to a poor design, but that's what it is. Have a read on the roads forum. Big thread there about it.

I know what your talking about. I accept its a messy junction. I drive it every single day. But your still wrong in your thinking.

The road markings are clear. The signage is clear. There is no issue if you are in the correct lane. It could be a hair pin left turn and still not an issue. The issue is people thinking, like you said, 'Ah sure its easier for me if I go to the extreme left and drive straight on'

On that point, do you indicate? You should be because your actually changing lane. Most people don't. And most people, quite reasonably, assume no one from their left is going to cut right or just blindly drive straight on.

As per your diagram ,Green go North and Yellow go South. That's 100% correct as per the signage. But one would be completely and categorically wrong to be in the green lane if their intention was to go South. They should make the lines about 100m from the junction solid to stop people crossing them and sit a Traffic Corp unit there for the day. I'd applaud them for that. Like I said, if your in the wrong lane or make a mistake, just go around the long way. Its not the end of the world merely a product for a lack of attention and following simple directions.

djimi

Anan1 wrote: »

People are more used to being passed on the right, the drivers side mirror is more in their field of vision, and they have to move left to leave the motorway.

I take the point, but a moron is a moron regardless, and I doubt youll find too many people who are dumb enough to change lanes to the left without looking but have perfect common sense when moving right. Stupidity doesnt really work that way!

Fighting Irish

gubbie wrote: »

I see it regularly on here, people giving out about those who drive in the middle lane, saying that they should be on the left most lane, that the middle lane is for overtaking.

Now if this was the case and everyone was sitting in the left most lane with the other two lanes being used for overtaking, then wouldn't this result in cars that are merging have a far more difficult time and two almost empty lanes to the right.

Now I normally drive in Cork and it rarely is a problem. I would say that the course of business on a 3 lane road is the left most for merging cars (who then further merge if they're going on further), the middle lane for regular drivers and the right most lane for overtaking.

But cork has much less traffic (yay!). From my experience of driving in Dublin traffic is split between the two leftmost lanes allowing space for merging and leaving.

Seriously, what's so wrong with this?

People should stay to the left unless overtaking, and leave plenty of space between you and the car in front to allow for merging cars. No unnecessary braking either please!

omega666

ironclaw wrote: »

I know what your talking about. I accept its a messy junction. I drive it every single day. But your still wrong in your thinking.

The road markings are clear. The signage is clear. There is no issue if you are in the correct lane. It could be a hair pin left turn and still not an issue. The issue is people thinking, like you said, 'Ah sure its easier for me if I go to the extreme left and drive straight on'

On that point, do you indicate? You should be because your actually changing lane. Most people don't. And most people, quite reasonably, assume no one from their left is going to cut right or just blindly drive straight on.

As per your diagram ,Green go North and Yellow go South. That's 100% correct as per the signage. But one would be completely and categorically wrong to be in the green lane if their intention was to go South. They should make the lines about 100m from the junction solid to stop people crossing them and sit a Traffic Corp unit there for the day. I'd applaud them for that. Like I said, if your in the wrong lane or make a mistake, just go around the long way. Its not the end of the world merely a product for a lack of attention and following simple directions.

no the sign's for that Juntion are far from clear.
Have a look on Google Maps.
You will see that the first sign for that Junction is on the road about 400 metres back. On the Left lane is printed M50, the other two say City.
100 metres after that is the overhead sign before the road splits into 4 lanes which again has City over the two right lanes and M50 pointing over the left lane.

Skittlebrau

bluewolf wrote: »

Because you can't overtake on the left

I've spoken at length to a driver tester on this very issue who said that there's a difference between 'passing on the left' and 'overtaking (or undertaking as it should be called) on the left'.

According to him, if you're in the driving lane and you pass traffic in the middle (overtaking) lane that's ok. What's prohibited is undertaking i.e. moving from the middle lane to the left lane to pass a car and back into the middle lane. Makes sense to me when you consider that when overtaking using the overtaking lane you're supposed to move back into the driving lane afterwards.

However.... he has had disagreements with traffic Gardai before over different "rules of the road" issues so you could still get done for it I suppose.

Incidentally, when he has had disagreements on traffic rules with the Gardai he's always 'won' the argument (for want of a better description).


Not saying he's right or wrong (I know most here have very strong views on the matter)...but I'd take his view over a lot of other people's.

creedp

corktina wrote: »

no but the guy coming up behind you has to do double the lane hopping because you are driving incorrectly

I'm slow so I don't get it! if I'm in the left/middle lane and somebody comes up behind me wishing to overtake does he not simply move out to the middle/right lane? How am I causing him to double his lane hopping?

ironclaw

omega666 wrote: »

no the sign's for that Juntion are far from clear.
Have a look on Google Maps.
You will see that the first sign for that Junction is on the road about 400 metres back. On the Left lane is printed M50, the other two say City.
100 metres after that is the overhead sign before the road splits into 4 lanes which again has City over the two right lanes and M50 pointing over the left lane.

Google Maps and Streetview, as per my first post, are outdated.

I'll post a sequence from the DVR tonight. It's more than adequately sign posted on the ground and on signage.

mitosis

creedp wrote: »

I'm slow so I don't get it! if I'm in the left/middle lane and somebody comes up behind me wishing to overtake does he not simply move out to the middle/right lane? How am I causing him to double his lane hopping?

On a three lane road, if I am in the driving lane, leftmost, and you are in the middle one, I have to signal and move to the middle lane, I have again to signal and move to the rightmost lane. When I am past you I have to change lane to the middle, then again to the left. Thus the number of lange changing manoeuvers is doubled from the two it would be if you were in the left lane.

creedp

mitosis wrote: »

On a three lane road, if I am in the driving lane, leftmost, and you are in the middle one, I have to signal and move to the middle lane, I have again to signal and move to the rightmost lane. When I am past you I have to change lane to the middle, then again to the left. Thus the number of lange changing manoeuvers is doubled from the two it would be if you were in the left lane.

I think I might be misinterpreted here. Don't worry I won't be the one in the middle lane being overtaken by someone in the left lane. I can vassure you in such a scenario I would have already have pulled into the left lane. My point was if I am in the middle lane and travelling faster than traffic in the left lane I won't be pulling in and out constantly as I'm making progress .. I will stay in the middle lane until the there is no traffic in the left lane going slower than I am.

The other scenario I referred to is if I am in the left lane and some guy in the middle lane is going slower that me I won't cross over to the right lane to overtake him before moving back to the left lane .. I'll simply remain in the left lane and undertake him.