Pope francis already spouting bullsh1t

Lucena

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

The current issue of the Private Eye showed me something very disturbing:



Is there no organisation too evil for the Dirty Digger, first TB's Nu Labor, then Call me Dave's Nasty (but pretending not to be) Party, now the catholic church!

I thought you were going to say Alex Ferguson was double-jobbing (guy in red on the extreme right)

Corkfeen

Sky news are the oddest channel. No real news to report on, so they go live to the pope's easter celebrations.

Lucena

robp wrote: »

Democracy blows doesn't it?

People voted for religion in schools? When did that happen?

Pawwed Rig

robp wrote: »

Isn't it dreadful that people receive the education that they desire. Democracy blows doesn't it?

because 4 year olds can make informed decisions about their life:rolleyes:

Nodin

robp wrote: »

Isn't it dreadful that people receive the education that they desire. Democracy blows doesn't it?
....

There was a vote?

Hotblack Desiato

robp wrote: »

Isn't it dreadful that people receive the education that they desire.

My kids aren't.
Even if we accept that the majority of Irish people actively want catholic brainwashing for their kids (And I'd vigorously challenge that), democracy does not give the majority the right to impose their views and values upon everyone.

robp

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

because 4 year olds can make informed decisions about their life:rolleyes:

It is the obligation and responsibility of the parent. the fallacy of your argument is that non-religious schooling is neutral whilst it is actually a worldview.

Nodin wrote: »

There was a vote?

Parents vote as consumers, they pick their preference.

ninja900 wrote: »

My kids aren't.
Even if we accept that the majority of Irish people actively want catholic brainwashing for their kids (And I'd vigorously challenge that), democracy does not give the majority the right to impose their views and values upon everyone.

If there was a referendum tomorrow proposing that the various types of public school patronage are replaced by just one secular state system there would be landslide defeat.

A 2008 survey of parents found only 11% favoured schools with no religion. A different 2008 survey found that 63.4% wish that the church continue to have prominent role in provision of Primary schooling. A 2010 survey of Educate Together parents found only 18% thought it was important or very important that religion was not part of the classroom curriculum and Educate Together parents are typically extremely self selective towards secularism. All in the report on school patronage.

Don't get me wrong, there is an oversupply of Catholic schools but there is huge support for a multi system approach. The likes of Senator Ivana Bacik may insist on a one size fits all secular system but there is a good reason she has lost three popular elections and won none.

Pawwed Rig

robp wrote: »

It is the obligation and responsibility of the parent. the fallacy of your argument is that non-religious schooling is neutral whilst it is actually a worldview.

Parents vote as consumers, they pick their preference.

Oh right. that explains that then. I was under the (obviously mistaken) belief that in large parts of the country the only school available are run by the church. Obviously you know of the multitude of non demonibational schools in rural and urban areas. Could you post a link for my reference?

robp

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Oh right. that explains that then. I was under the (obviously mistaken) belief that in large parts of the country the only school available are run by the church. Obviously you know of the multitude of non demonibational schools in rural and urban areas. Could you post a link for my reference?

Most people live in urban areas where there is increasingly more options. As I said there is a local oversupply of Catholic schools but this will be corrected over time. Until that point children can obtain schooling in catholic schools without receiving religious formation. The constitution asserts this principle and I have never heard of evidence to the contrary. I have heard all sorts of drivel to counter this but nothing remotely compelling (my favourite example: "when I was in school I opted out I was forced to participate the nativity plays", I guess the individual never realised Educate Together schools teach this cultural religion just like catholic schools).

Lets have a glance at the wonderful diversity of patron bodies that would be lost under a one size fits all system.

Catholic, Church of Ireland, Presbyterian, Methodist, Jewish, Islamic, Quaker, John Scottus Educational Trust Ld, Lifeways Ireland Ltd, An Foras Pátrúnachta na Scoileanna Lán-Ghaeilge Teo, Educate Together Ltd (national patron body), Schools in Educate Together network, Vocational Education Committees.

Diversity isn't a bad thing and it isn't adding cost to the exchequer as primary schools are typically small institutions of 150-200 children internationally.

token101

CerebralCortex wrote: »

People are truly irrational. I'm so tired of the clowns on Newstalk etc. ask "Will he change anything?" No! He can't the doctrine is set, either that or become a protestant Church. For example if they back peddle on celibacy it's like admitting God has changed his mind and his values, which opens, correction, should open a whole can of worms philosophically speaking (it has already for those who are atheists). A man who has spent his life celibate is hardly going to turn around at the end of his life and say "Ooops that was wrong" clergy aren't able for that kind of honest rationality, if they were they probably wouldn't be priests. If people want change they should look to why they believe what the believe, leave the Church or join another. Stop expecting the Church to change itself to suit your needs so you can label yourself Catholic.

Don't even get me started on the craziness that is a homosexual Catholic.

Gay hating, celibacy enforcing. Seems God was a bit an of an asshole? Might be no harm if he modernised? Maybe he could just appear in Portugal or Knock or in a bush with some more tolerant ideas?

Hotblack Desiato

robp wrote: »

Most people live in urban areas where there is increasingly more options.

Increasingly more, but still very very small in number, and heavily oversubscribed.

As I said there is a local oversupply of Catholic schools but this will be corrected over time. Until that point children can obtain schooling in catholic schools without receiving religious formation. The constitution asserts this principle and I have never heard of evidence to the contrary.

Oh please. There are lots of posters here with real life experience of how this works out in practice.
Yes in theory you have this right. In practice, you can opt your child out of religious instruction but usually the school will say they have no resources to provide alternative supervision. Unless you or other parents can step in then you're screwed.
Also the religious ethos schools integrate their mythology throughout the curriculum, so reading a bible story could be an 'English' lesson.
Some people have reported that they or their kids were ostracised by some parents because their kids opted out of religion, or that principal/teachers passed remarks.
The ET model is much healthier. Everyone does the same school day, including religious education. Any religious groups who wish to provide religious instruction are free to do so in the school after the school day. No-one is forced to opt out or stigmatise themselves.

Lets have a glance at the wonderful diversity of patron bodies that would be lost under a one size fits all system.

I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting mandatory state schools for all with no alternatives permitted.
But multidenominational schooling with optional religious instruction (a la ET) should be the default option and available to everyone in the state.

Diversity isn't a bad thing and it isn't adding cost to the exchequer as primary schools are typically small institutions of 150-200 children internationally.

My kids go to the local CoI school and it's much smaller than that. It would be interesting to compare the average pupil/teacher ratio at RC schools versus minority religion ethos schools. Usually the minority schools are much smaller and have lower P/T ratios as a result.

robp

ninja900 wrote: »

Increasingly more, but still very very small in number, and heavily oversubscribed.


Oh please. There are lots of posters here with real life experience of how this works out in practice.
Yes in theory you have this right. In practice, you can opt your child out of religious instruction but usually the school will say they have no resources to provide alternative supervision. Unless you or other parents can step in then you're screwed.
Also the religious ethos schools integrate their mythology throughout the curriculum, so reading a bible story could be an 'English' lesson.
Some people have reported that they or their kids were ostracised by some parents because their kids opted out of religion, or that principal/teachers passed remarks.
The ET model is much healthier. Everyone does the same school day, including religious education. Any religious groups who wish to provide religious instruction are free to do so in the school after the school day. No-one is forced to opt out or stigmatise themselves.

I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting mandatory state schools for all with no alternatives permitted.
But multidenominational schooling with optional religious instruction (a la ET) should be the default option and available to everyone in the state.

My kids go to the local CoI school and it's much smaller than that. It would be interesting to compare the average pupil/teacher ratio at RC schools versus minority religion ethos schools. Usually the minority schools are much smaller and have lower P/T ratios as a result.

You claim that schools are 'usually' unwilling to cooperate with opting out. A strong claim but no evidence. I would have thought you would support treating the Bible as literature in a fiction dominated curriculum. Anyway there is not a shred of evidence that ET is 'healthier' but its when I hear claims that children are 'stigmatised' the mind really boggles. There will always be people opting out for various reasons e.g. migrants opting out of Irish or also supplementary English or remedial classes. There will always be the odd rude parent or teacher. I used to be mocked for having long hair in school, does that mean haircuts should be standardised? Should gay pupils pretend to be straight so that everyone fits in? Is it really healthy that there is no variety?

Low P/T ratios aught to be encouraged as it is a good thing.

Brian Shanahan

Lucena wrote: »

I thought you were going to say Alex Ferguson was double-jobbing (guy in red on the extreme right)

No he's most definitely Ole Rupe, though I cannot see where he put his Wendi.

Hotblack Desiato

robp wrote: »

You claim that schools are 'usually' unwilling to cooperate with opting out. A strong claim but no evidence.

Plenty of posters here have posted in this forum about their difficulties with religious schools.

I would have thought you would support treating the Bible as literature in a fiction dominated curriculum.

Yes let's have primary kids reading a book with rape, incest, murder, and hellfire as major themes... :rolleyes:

Anyway there is not a shred of evidence that ET is 'healthier' but its when I hear claims that children are 'stigmatised' the mind really boggles.

It's healthier because it does not discriminate

There will always be people opting out for various reasons e.g. migrants opting out of Irish or also supplementary English or remedial classes. There will always be the odd rude parent or teacher. I used to be mocked for having long hair in school, does that mean haircuts should be standardised? Should gay pupils pretend to be straight so that everyone fits in? Is it really healthy that there is no variety?

What?!?

Low P/T ratios aught to be encouraged as it is a good thing.

It is, but when we have balkanisation of the school system we end up with higher costs and less efficiency overall.

krudler

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Don't even get me started on the craziness that is a homosexual Catholic.

I know, well, knew one. Truly baffling, how could you actively be part of an organisation that hates you? or well hates what you do, with an extra order of sidestepping when asked directly.

CerebralCortex

krudler wrote: »

I know, well, knew one. Truly baffling, how could you actively be part of an organisation that hates you? or well hates what you do, with an extra order of sidestepping when asked directly.

It's insane. It's an organisation that fundamentally hates what humans are.

Zillah

krudler wrote: »

I know, well, knew one. Truly baffling, how could you actively be part of an organisation that hates you? or well hates what you do, with an extra order of sidestepping when asked directly.

It's because they've been taught to hate themselves. They believe they are flawed and feel shame in the face of God.

Make someone feel worthless and you own them.

MrPudding

robp wrote: »

You claim that schools are 'usually' unwilling to cooperate with opting out. A strong claim but no evidence.

There have been plenty of reports of this type of thing happening, quite a few by people here on boards, but also in the media.

Whilst there is, technically, an option to opt children out of religious education in a school, it is, in practice not really an option. For example, religious schools use religion in most classes. The indoctrination manual they use encourages teachers to use religious themes in as many classes as possible, so even if your child can be opted out (more on that below) they are not going to be free from religion in school.

So, opting out. It seems that in many cases the parent must provide alternative supervision for the children that are opted out. I am sure even you must be able to see that this is not a particularly practical solution.

As for evidence, here is some:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irate-dad-takes-son-out-of-school-over-prayer-recital-26617869.html

MrP

robp

MrPudding wrote: »

There have been plenty of reports of this type of thing happening, quite a few by people here on boards, but also in the media.

Whilst there is, technically, an option to opt children out of religious education in a school, it is, in practice not really an option. For example, religious schools use religion in most classes. The indoctrination manual they use encourages teachers to use religious themes in as many classes as possible, so even if your child can be opted out (more on that below) they are not going to be free from religion in school.

So, opting out. It seems that in many cases the parent must provide alternative supervision for the children that are opted out. I am sure even you must be able to see that this is not a particularly practical solution.

As for evidence, here is some:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irate-dad-takes-son-out-of-school-over-prayer-recital-26617869.html

MrP

Your still treating gossip and rumour as it reveals the norm. I can assure you it does not. I am well aware of that Leitrim case but a one off case is not at all evidence schools 'usually' fail to cooperate as you so wildly claim. Its not even what you claim is happening as the child was copying prayers on its own accord.

Very few teachers introduce religion into Irish, English or maths etc classes. In fact I have never heard of that happening these days. Can you show otherwise? Thought not. The reality is the op-out path works for the vast majority of people who use it but most who do are not so evangelical about their secular worldview that they are fixated with denying religious education to those who seek it.

Pawwed Rig

robp wrote: »

In fact I have never heard of that happening these days. Can you show otherwise? Thought not. The reality is the op-out path works for the vast majority of people who use it but most who do are not so evangelic about their secular worldview that they are fixated with denying religious education to those who seek it.

robp wrote: »

Very few teachers introduce religion into Irish, English or maths etc classes.

I remember clearly learning about the leanbh Iosa in Irish class. We even got sex education through a religious viewpoint taught by a nun. I also remember huge amount of lost class time in 1st, 5th and 6th classes while all the kids had to prepare for communion/confirmation.

this article
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/quinn-will-announce-church-to-lose-school-control-29167728.html

would seem to indicate that the choice is not currently available for many parents.