Barbecue on Balcony - can property management forbid?

Yshay

Hi,

We've been renting our apartment for over 3 years.
About 1.5 years ago the property management introduced a barbecue ban, hanging signs to the roof-top terrace door that barbecues are not permitted.

As we have a large private balcony we didn't think the rule applied to private property too and had maybe a barbecue or 2 after that. We then received a letter from the property management stating they had become aware we had had a barbecue on our balcony and wanted to remind us that barbecues are not allowed.

My first question is: can the property management forbid barbecue on private property with the sole justification that 'barbecues are dangerous'?

From our perspective this new rule is diminishing the value of the property we are renting, as we pay for that large balcony and we haven't been presented with such rule at the time of signing the lease.
Also note that our large balcony - no roof or wood - allows us to have barbecues in perfect safety.

In any case, we have not had a barbecue since (this was October last year).

Today we have received another letter from the property management where we are asked to remove the portable grill from the balcony, because barbecues are not permitted.
I am finding it hard to understand the logic here: having a barbecue grill doesn't mean that we are going to have one if this is not permitted. It would be questioning one's motives, wouldn't it?
Also, if we really wanted to break the rule we could keep it inside and take it out just to have a barbecue, where the grill is stored wouldn't make any difference.

Can someone please share some thoughts on this?
Honestly, we don't have storage space inside and I don't see why we should throw away a belonging on the basis of an assumption.
Can the property management request that we remove the grill from our private balcony?

Thank you.
Yshay

Gatling

Expect quote's of planning department's and you actually have no right to use balcony if your a tenant ,
Basically if you dont own your apartment ,you have no say in what happen's or is or isn't allowed on your landlords balcony if your a tenant

Paulw

Yshay wrote: »

My first question is: can the property management forbid barbecue on private property with the sole justification that 'barbecues are dangerous'?

Can the property management request that we remove the grill from our private balcony?

Yes and yes. They can bring in such a rule, especially if it is voted in at an AGM by the unit owners.

As a tenant, you have no say in this at all. You must abide by the instructions. You can take a discussion with your landlord, but ultimately it is between the landlord and the management company, but you must abide by the instructions.

xper

OP,
Do you have an actual written copy of the current House Rules for the apartment complex? You are entitled to one from your landlord. Check what they actually say about barbecues. The rules are set out by the Management Company, i.e., the entity which owns the buildings and grounds and of which all the apartment owners, your landlord included, are members. Enforcement of the rules, among other functions, is usually delegated to a contracted agent. As such agents often deal with multiple different sets of apartments with differing rules, its not unknown for them to enforce rules incorrectly or even where they don't exist.
For example, the rules in this case might actually say that the ban only applies to the rooftop terrace or that residents are not allowed "light barbecues" so storing one is strictly speaking not banned. Its worth checking out.

Regarding your obligations, most leases will have an explicit clause stating that you must abide by the House Rules of the Management Company, whatever they may be and however they may be lawfully altered from time to time.

Yshay

Gatling wrote: »

Expect quote's of planning department's and you actually have no right to use balcony if your a tenant ,
Basically if you dont own your apartment ,you have no say in what happen's or is or isn't allowed on your landlords balcony if your a tenant

Right, so shouldn't the landlord be informed by the property management rather than the tenant? then it would be between the landlord and the tenant..

Yshay

xper wrote: »

OP,
Do you have an actual written copy of the current House Rules for the apartment complex? You are entitled to one from your landlord.

There is a copy of the house rule in our hall, but barbecues are not mentioned. We have only been informed by mail.

xper wrote: »

Enforcement of the rules, among other functions, is usually delegated to a contracted agent. As such agents often deal with multiple different sets of apartments with differing rules, its not unknown for them to enforce rules incorrectly or even where they don't exist.

You are right, the letters are coming from an agency. From experience they aren't always too professional.

xper wrote: »

.. the rules in this case might actually say that the ban only applies to the rooftop terrace or that residents are not allowed "light barbecues" so storing one is strictly speaking not banned. Its worth checking out.

Well, they haven't updated the copy of the house rules available to the residents, it's hard to say, but I'll check with my landlord.
I just don't seem to really understand the logic here. It's like giving someone a speeding ticket because they drive a car that can drive above the limit even if they're actually not exceeding it.
I can store the grill inside if I really have to remove it from the balcony, but will that really prevent me from having a barbecue if I really want to?

Yshay

Paulw wrote: »

You can take a discussion with your landlord, but ultimately it is between the landlord and the management company, but you must abide by the instructions.

Thanks, I will. In the past we already discussed how this new rule would affect the value of the property, but it was October so we never got to the end of it.
I will contact the landlord now and see what he says.

athtrasna

Balconies are not private property. They are management company property which the unit owner has exclusive access to, at the licence of the management company. The MC is entitled to set rules regarding balconies.

Del2005

The rule could be against the gas canister being stored, along with the BBQ, as there's a fire risk with a canister.

I know in my development there's a ban on gas canisters, BBQ and the storage of any other items on balconies. So while the MA may be saying remove your BBQ, the storage of anything on the balcony could be the issue and they just mentioned the BBQ to make sure you remove it.

Yshay

athtrasna wrote: »

Balconies are not private property. They are management company property which the unit owner has exclusive access to, at the licence of the management company. The MC is entitled to set rules regarding balconies.

Thanks for confirming this. It is the way the rules are communicated and enforced that isn't quite right in my development. The barbecue rule isn't mentioned in the House Rules, so these communications are all coming as a surprise.
In any case we will remove the grill as soon as it stops raining.

Yshay

Del2005 wrote: »

The rule could be against the gas canister being stored, along with the BBQ, as there's a fire risk with a canister.

Well, I don't have a gas canister, so I should be fine.
In fairness I do not see a fire risk with a barbecue grill... in Ireland! We had maybe 3 or 4 barbecues in over 3 years. For the most part the grill is just outside getting rusty in the rain.

Del2005

Yshay wrote: »

Well, I don't have a gas canister, so I should be fine.
In fairness I do not see a fire risk with a barbecue grill... in Ireland! We had maybe 3 or 4 barbecues in over 3 years. For the most part the grill is just outside getting rusty in the rain.

You don't see a risk with having a metal container full of hot charcoal on a balcony Not knowing your development but the least issue is the stink going into others apartments and the biggest is it getting knocked off the balcony onto someone or something.

It could also be a part of the block insurance policy not to allow open flames.

gallag

Buy a bigger bbq and mabey a nice patio heater and tell them "your not the boss of me"

Paulw

gallag wrote: »

Buy a bigger bbq and mabey a nice patio heater and tell them "your not the boss of me"

And then the management company simply enter the balcony, remove the offending items (as they can, within the contracts of the Lease Contract), and then they send you an admin fee charge for the removal and storage of the items, plus issue a further warning for your continued breach of the development rules. Yeah, your suggestion is a very smart move. :rolleyes:

Yshay

Del2005 wrote: »

You don't see a risk with having a metal container full of hot charcoal on a balcony

Hi Del2005,
barbecues have been forbidden, no one is allowed to have barbecues, so now, all those have a grill on their balconies keep it there and never use it. How can a never used grill and always wet grill be that dangerous?
I already had the grill when they introduced the rule, should we just throw it away now?
It's clear from this thread that we have to remove the grill from the balcony and we will, however, having a car that can drive faster than the speed limit doesn't mean that you will if there is such limit, right? Same here, I have a grill but I will not have a barbecue if it is forbidden, right?

Yshay

Paulw wrote: »

And then the management company simply enter the balcony, remove the offending items (as they can, within the contracts of the Lease Contract), and then they send you an admin fee charge for the removal and storage of the items, plus issue a further warning for your continued breach of the development rules. Yeah, your suggestion is a very smart move. :rolleyes:

Hi Paulw,

Not that I intend to follow Gallag's suggestion, but,

what if the barbecue rule is not clearly published along the development rules? This is the case in my development at the moment. They've only been sending letters. To what the agency and the property management know about it, tenants may have changed since the last communication (1 in fact has changed). How are tenants supposed to be aware of the rules if the rules are not included in the House Rules doc?

At this point it is clear that the rules are legitimate, it's the way the house rules are communicated and enforced that is not legitimate.

Paulw

Yshay wrote: »

barbecues have been forbidden, no one is allowed to have barbecues, so now, all those have a grill on their balconies keep it there and never use it. How can a never used grill and always wet grill be that dangerous?

So, it then becomes an ugly distraction or even rubbish.

Yshay wrote: »

what if the barbecue rule is not clearly published along the development rules? How are tenants supposed to be aware of the rules if the rules are not included in the House Rules doc?

Rules change. It is up to the management company to communicate those to the unit owners. This is normally done, if the rule change is brought in at an AGM, by the minutes from the AGM being distributed to all unit owners.

It is then up to the unit owners to communicate these changes, plus the existing rules, to the tenants. So, the responsibility to communicate these rules to you is with your landlord.

It is not up to the management company nor management agent to communicate the rules/rule changes to you, but it is up to them to enforce the rules, by any means necessary.

sharpsuit

The legal position in relation to house rules and information provided to tenants is governed by section 23 of the Multi-Unit Developments Act, 2011.

Section 23(7) provides that a copy of the house rules shall be sent to each unit as well as to each owner. The obligation to inform tenants of the house rules lies with the management company.

The section also provides that the house rules must be consistent with the title documents of the units and of the apartment complex.

The house rules must also be consistent with the quiet and peaceful enjoyment of the property by unit owners and tenants. They must also provide a fair and equitable balancing of rights and obligations of occupiers and unit owners.

In OP’s case, it appears that there is no barbecue ban in the house rules. It also appears that the house rules have not been provided to each unit. Furthermore, it is questionable whether an absolute ban on having a barbecue (especially a non-gas one) is consistent with the quiet and peaceful enjoyment of the dwelling.

It is not the case that the management company can avail of “any means necessary”. The Act provides that the recourse of the management company is via the District Court or the Circuit Court to recover costs via a simple contract debt.

Marcusm

Del2005 wrote: »

The rule could be against the gas canister being stored, along with the BBQ, as there's a fire risk with a canister.

I

If there's a significant risk with gas canisters, maybe they should be banned throughout the country. Tens of thousands of homes would be left without hobs and many more without super ser heaters. The issue of BBQs on balconies is not related to gas canisters - that's a straw man argument.

djimi

I cant imagine too many people would be over the moon with their neighbours having a BBQ on their balcony below (or even above their house). I am in no way a fan of management companies and the rules that they love to impose, but in this case I can understand where they are coming from. And its not from a safety point of view.

dahamsta

Cars should be banned too, dangerous things, full of petrol. Death traps all. And car parks, nasty enabling things.

StillWaters

I live in a house, and on a sunny day the smoke from bbqs either side of me would be a nuisance but tolerable. I'd imagine sitting directly above such smoke would be intolerable. Common sense rule IMO.

Del2005

Marcusm wrote: »

If there's a significant risk with gas canisters, maybe they should be banned throughout the country. Tens of thousands of homes would be left without hobs and many more without super ser heaters. The issue of BBQs on balconies is not related to gas canisters - that's a straw man argument.

Like a lot of the cleaning chemicals people use in their homes compressed gas cylinders are dangerous, having a flammable gas is just added fun. People assume that because they can be bought over the counter that they aren't dangerous. If the fire brigade know that there is a gas cylinder in a premises they won't enter unless human life is in danger and they'll continue to soak the area with the cylinder for a few hours after they've extinguished the fire.

If a building goes on fire there's a huge risk with gas canisters. In individual houses it's not a big issue as there's only your house, and maybe 2 more, that can get blown to bits. In an apartment complex there are peoples homes all around you.

There's also the increased insurance risk for keeping compressed gas cylinders. If you want to allow gas cylinders into a development then the insurance risk increases which leads to higher costs for the unit owners.

Yshay

Paulw wrote: »

So, it then becomes an ugly distraction or even rubbish.

Well, mine belongs to me and it becomes rubbish only when I decide to throw it away, not at anyone else's decision.
I am renting, therefore I might want to keep it for the future, whether it is ugly or not.

Paulw wrote: »

Rules change. ..... So, the responsibility to communicate these rules to you is with your landlord.
It is not up to the management company nor management agent to communicate the rules/rule changes to you, but it is up to them to enforce the rules, by any means necessary.

I read Sharpsuit quotation of section 23 of the Multi-Unit Developments Act, 2011 with pleasure and it gives a slightly different version than yours.
It looks like the Property Management is responsible to communicate the House Rules to both tenants and owners.
Mine in fact has put up the House Rules in the hall. Problem is, there is no mention of barbecues being banned, nor grills being banned either.
I'll remove the grill, but I will also demand the Property Management to comply with the regulations they are required to follow.

Yshay

StillWaters wrote: »

I live in a house, and on a sunny day the smoke from bbqs either side of me would be a nuisance but tolerable. I'd imagine sitting directly above such smoke would be intolerable. Common sense rule IMO.

Well, in my development, only the penthouse flats have balconies. This means there is no balcony below nor above. Being on the rooftop, there is also no risk of smoke getting to anyone from any side.
Anyway - if there rule says no barbecue I'll abide, it's just ridiculous to expect people to remove the grills. Mine is fairly small, but my neighbour has a big one (and a smaller apartment), I'm wandering what she'll do with it...

Yshay

sharpsuit wrote: »

The legal position in relation to house rules and information provided to tenants is governed by section 23 of the Multi-Unit Developments Act, 2011.

Section 23(7) provides that a copy of the house rules shall be sent to each unit as well as to each owner. The obligation to inform tenants of the house rules lies with the management company.

The section also provides that the house rules must be consistent with the title documents of the units and of the apartment complex.

The house rules must also be consistent with the quiet and peaceful enjoyment of the property by unit owners and tenants. They must also provide a fair and equitable balancing of rights and obligations of occupiers and unit owners.

In OP’s case, it appears that there is no barbecue ban in the house rules. It also appears that the house rules have not been provided to each unit. Furthermore, it is questionable whether an absolute ban on having a barbecue (especially a non-gas one) is consistent with the quiet and peaceful enjoyment of the dwelling.

It is not the case that the management company can avail of “any means necessary”. The Act provides that the recourse of the management company is via the District Court or the Circuit Court to recover costs via a simple contract debt.

Many, many thanks for posting this useful piece of info.:)
I am not questioning the legitimacy of the barbecue ban after all (if I had bought the apartment I probably would) - but it really doesn't feel fair to receive these letters reproaching us when said rules aren't properly communicated in the first place.

fasttalkerchat

Paulw wrote: »

So, it then becomes an ugly distraction or even rubbish.




Rules change. It is up to the management company to communicate those to the unit owners. This is normally done, if the rule change is brought in at an AGM, by the minutes from the AGM being distributed to all unit owners.

It is then up to the unit owners to communicate these changes, plus the existing rules, to the tenants. So, the responsibility to communicate these rules to you is with your landlord.

It is not up to the management company nor management agent to communicate the rules/rule changes to you, but it is up to them to enforce the rules, by any means necessary.

But if these rules can change and a tenant (renting) was not able to attend or vote can they be bound by these rules immediately? Surely they would have to be added to the contract which the tenant could refuse.

djimi

The rental contract will usually say something along the lines of the tenant is bound to the rules of the complex, but will leave it as ambiguous as that so as to allow for said rules to change.

And yes, a tenant would be bound by these rules immediately in theory, however in reality there would need to be a little leeway at least, as the tenant would not be present at the AGM, so a short amount of time would have to be allowed for the landlord to relay the rule changes to the tenant.