Buying bitcoins

makeorbrake

DeSelby83 wrote: »

It's gone from $16 to $21 in last 48 hours or so

Ok, and by comparison with the rest?

Dohnjoe

makeorbrake wrote: »

Ok, and by comparison with the rest?

54% increase in the last 7 days, just ahead of Eth and ETC

makeorbrake

Dohnjoe wrote: »

54% increase in the last 7 days, just ahead of Eth and ETC

Fair enough - it was a few days ago I looked at it and litecoin wasn't making the same level of progress as the rest of them. Presumably, it picked up a bit since then.

Phenomenal growth with BTC and crypto's generally over the past few days though - unreal. By all accounts, it's the Japanese driving the BTC trading.

boardie100

has anyone cashed in recently?.... whats the tax implication on these?...

The Cuban

33% on the profit
that's if your fool enough to have to.
I`ll never give them a cent, as far as I`m concerned I bought them with my own earned cash that I already payed tax on. They can f-off for themselves, they have no way of knowing how many Bitcoins I have, I`ll never "Cash out" as you say.
For me Bitcoin gives the two fingers to all the establishment :-Banks, Governments, Politicians, the landed Gentry, and all other establishments that ride on the back of ordinary people

Dohnjoe

The Cuban wrote: »

33% on the profit
that's if your fool enough to have to.
I`ll never give them a cent, as far as I`m concerned I bought them with my own earned cash that I already payed tax on. They can f-off for themselves, they have no way of knowing how many Bitcoins I have, I`ll never "Cash out" as you say.
For me Bitcoin gives the two fingers to all the establishment :-Banks, Governments, Politicians, the landed Gentry, and all other establishments that ride on the back of ordinary people

Exactly, nothing makes me angrier than those corrupt politicians and gentry dodging taxes with their offshore commodity holdings! :pac:

All joking aside, I'm in Europe, if I hold off for a year, I don't pay tax on any profit

DeSelby83

Dohnjoe wrote: »

The Cuban wrote: »

33% on the profit
that's if your fool enough to have to.
I`ll never give them a cent, as far as I`m concerned I bought them with my own earned cash that I already payed tax on. They can f-off for themselves, they have no way of knowing how many Bitcoins I have, I`ll never "Cash out" as you say.
For me Bitcoin gives the two fingers to all the establishment :-Banks, Governments, Politicians, the landed Gentry, and all other establishments that ride on the back of ordinary people

Exactly, nothing makes me angrier than those corrupt politicians and gentry dodging taxes with their offshore commodity holdings! :pac:

All joking aside, I'm in Europe, if I hold off for a year, I don't pay tax on any profit

How does this work exactly. I've had the thought recently. In the next few years if I want to cash out a couple of grand how is tax formulated or what is it classed as. Is it classed as the same a 'typical' stock market investment?

Dohnjoe

DeSelby83 wrote: »

How does this work exactly. I've had the thought recently. In the next few years if I want to cash out a couple of grand how is tax formulated or what is it classed as. Is it classed as the same a 'typical' stock market investment?

Will be paying the tax office (Europe) a visit soon, will be asking them a few general questions about this

Grumpypants

I'm sure the profit is taxed at the normal income rate. For me bitcoin isn't an investment, it is just a way to buy stuff, so I will just spend it on stuff instead of spending my wages.

cnocbui

I'm pretty sure any profit on 'trading' bitcoin would be treated the same as any other investment, namely it would attract capital gains tax and would not be rated the same as income.

If you used BTC to directly buy other stuff, then that wouldn't be a capital gain.

Normally I would think tax should be paid, but since DIRT is closer to crime, than a tax, I think they deserve everything they don't get.

Roonbox

Grumpypants wrote: »

I'm sure the profit is taxed at the normal income rate. For me bitcoin isn't an investment, it is just a way to buy stuff, so I will just spend it on stuff instead of spending my wages.

Seriously?
Do you find Bitcoin more convenient than cash for purchases?

The Cuban

Ethereum is really rocketing over the last few days, Daily gains of 10%+, this is heading for at least half the MCAP of Bitcoin. Its a good thing its not a direct competitor of bitcoin. I`m happily invested in both

Grumpypants

Roonbox wrote: »

Seriously?
Do you find Bitcoin more convenient than cash for purchases?

Depends, face to face cash is king. Otherwise, bitcoin is a million times better. Trying sending cash to Germany in 2 seconds. Even a bank transfer has to be done before 3pm to arrive the next morning.

Dohnjoe

Grumpypants wrote: »

Depends, face to face cash is king. Otherwise, bitcoin is a million times better. Trying sending cash to Germany in 2 seconds. Even a bank transfer has to be done before 3pm to arrive the next morning.

Crypto-currency values are based on their potential future value/use (typically alongside traditional currency rather than trying to replace it)

The blockchain and distributed ledger tech behind is potentially industry changing for banks and market infrastructure

It took 20 years for paper stocks to go digital. On any big/macro scale this stuff is a long way off, i.e. you're not going to be able to feed/cloth/pay rent/utilities/mortgage/pension any time soon with an unregulated, volatile, risky, unstable digital currency that is susceptible to forks, hacks, complete market manipulation

scamalert

Dohnjoe wrote: »

The blockchain and distributed ledger tech behind is potentially industry changing for banks and market infrastructure

It took 20 years for paper stocks to go digital. On any big/macro scale this stuff is a long way off,

i fail to grasp what does actually blockchain offer to any institution or person ?

id imagine banks use secure protocols, and have some sort of WAN setup.security wise ssh2048bit is almost impossible to crack, then you have https protocols.

we spoke of sepa being slow, thats only system that is slow, but given its nature of usage in many cases its used for large transactions thus my guess is some sort of monitoring before finalizing transaction to go trough, then actual delay in infrastructure, since seems means of using card payments, paypal happen instantly and banks are very rarely hacked.Someone mentioned 2seconds to transfer funds to germany,but if ordering smth its no matter really if its extra day since shipping isnt 2 seconds.Id imagine if one is struck for few hundred euro in case of emergency they would still use likes of western union, which is instant.

found app Weechat that is almost fully used by most people in Asia, its same as facebook and payapl combined, you scan qr and send funds in seconds, topping up via bank, mobile and being able to pay all bills or expenses.

So literally dozen options worldwide are used to make transactions via different forms, and dont understand if blockchain is so great why its not used already given its open source ?

I understand anonymous nature of using such method where theres no names attached but why would someone in business want that.

Dohnjoe

scamalert wrote: »

i fail to grasp what does actually blockchain offer to any institution or person ?

Essentially in any bank, and especially in market infrastructure, everything is run in a line - with multiple points/checks along that line

When something goes wrong, it has to be identified which part of the chain had the issue, then they have to potentially reverse each component and go back to the point where the issue occurred

This requires a vast amount of people, departments and resources, and it's done on a myriad of systems ranging from 80's to modern windows based browsers - not to mention multiple players; csd's, correspondents, transfer agents, etc

Blockchain and the concept of a digital distributed ledger offer the potential to streamline the hell out of that, trim the fat, modernise it, etc

Obviously they are still in the "tinkering" phase, but most large banks have projects up and running to test and produce future systems that can use the tech with the hopes of implementing it themselves - they are taking it very seriously because of the potential savings it could offer them

Then there is stuff like Ethereum, which offers the opportunity of "smart contracts".. I'm not super well versed on it yet, but basically it works like "smart money" with the inbuilt ability to do secure complex transactions, e.g. with escrow accounts

pro_gnostic_8

The Cuban wrote: »

Ethereum is really rocketing over the last few days, Daily gains of 10%+, this is heading for at least half the MCAP of Bitcoin. Its a good thing its not a direct competitor of bitcoin.

But it is ! ( A serious challenger to Bitcoin).
This guy from the online financial journal "The Street" in an article yesterday opines that Ethereum will even prove to be a Bitcoin Killer. QUOTE: "I continue to believe the Ethereum technology will displace Bitcoin entirely and that it is still in the very early phases of its adoption, expansion and value increase".
http://realmoney.thestreet.com/articles/05/03/2017/ill-say-it-again-ethereum-beats-bitcoin

gctest50

scamalert wrote: »

i fail to grasp what does actually blockchain offer to any institution or person ?........

.

Huge savings n stuff for the shipping industry too

The Cuban

No its not a challenger to Bitcoin, as Antonopoulos put it, Bitcoin is a Tiger, Ethereum is a shark, they will never compete directly with each other, how can a tiger fight a shark? if its in water then the shark wins, on land the tiger.
Ethereum will never be able to scale the same as Bitcoin, nor bitcoin run smart contracts like Ethereum.
Either way I`m invested in both and happy to do so

The Cuban

scamalert wrote: »

i fail to grasp what does actually blockchain offer to any institution or person ?

Ah seriously dude. Come on

scamalert

i think pro gnostic has a valid claim, its exposure and bringing to market that matters,etherum from limited articles seems has drawn in people that want to get it into the open.

theres no sharks or tigers or other nonsense.Its whatever will be made simple and accessible to masses that will take the ranks eventually when it comes to global crypto currency.

pro_gnostic_8

The Cuban wrote: »

Ethereum will never be able to scale the same as Bitcoin,

But Bitcoin's big flaw at the moment is just that -- an inability to scale in response to increased consumer demand. This scaleability ( or lack of) issue has now brought us to the stage of increased fees, increased transaction times of up to 48 hours per tx, over a 100,000 "waiting" transactions in the mempool at any one time. The dirty little secret of Bitcoin is that it is broken as far as day-to-day transactions are concerned; and the matter won't be fixed until the civil war between B.U and Segwit is resolved. Which might be next year or the one after.
So to compare scaling in ETH unfavourably with that of Bitcoin is a bit disingenuous, imo.

makeorbrake

scamalert wrote: »

i fail to grasp what does actually blockchain offer to any institution or person ?

I've put this to you before and to a couple of others. If you can't see any redeeming qualities in blockchain or btc, why in the name of ... would you invest in it? Please book a flight to Vegas, check in to Bellagio, enjoy the 'free' drinks and make yourself comfortable at the roulette table. Idle speculation for the sake of speculation - it adds no value and only serves to falsely represent the item in question ...in this case, bitcoin.

makeorbrake

pro_gnostic_8 wrote: »

So to compare scaling in ETH unfavourably with that of Bitcoin is a bit disingenuous, imo.

IF BTC core win out and implement segwit within say...the next six months - and that proves to solve the scalability issue (at least in the short-medium term), is ETH then still a threat to it?

Pivot Eoin

Just bought my first €25.00 of Bitcoin (Max Allowed) on Belgacoin. Wish me luck! Complete noob to this. But after huge recommendations from a trusted client i decided to jump in.

Anyone know where I can buy it safely peer to peer in larger volume?

pro_gnostic_8

Well done, and good luck !
You've taken the first step in building the ancestral family fortune for the generations to come. In a hundred years, your descendants will be visiting great-grandaddy Eoin's grave on each anniversary to celebrate his foresight in buying his first bitcoin. By then it will be worth over €100,000,000 per coin. (So the exerts say, anyway).

You can buy peer-to-peer on Localbitcoins, but it is an expensive methodology. You will pay a significant premium over prevailing spot price.

cnocbui

Pivot Eoin wrote: »

Just bought my first ?25.00 of Bitcoin (Max Allowed) on Belgacoin. Wish me luck! Complete noob to this. But after huge recommendations from a trusted client i decided to jump in.

Anyone know where I can buy it safely peer to peer in larger volume?

Once you have done a €25 transaction on Belgacoin you can then buy in volume from them. Peer to peer Safely? Good luck.

Belgacoin seem safe at volume.

Pivot Eoin

Good stuff, thanks for the input. Have also setup on Bitsquare, but good to know about Belgacoin.

pro_gnostic_8

makeorbrake wrote: »

IF BTC core win out and implement segwit within say...the next six months - and that proves to solve the scalability issue (at least in the short-medium term), is ETH then still a threat to it?

It's a big "IF", Makeorbrake !
If by some miracle Segwit is activated this year, then that does not automatically and immediately solve the congestion issues. (It would of course smooth the path for implementation of Lightning Network and other upgrades which should address the problem). In two years, maybe?

In that scenario, is ETH still a threat to Bitcoin? (I'm reluctant to use the term "Threat" -- I prefer "challenger" to bitcoin's market cap).
Yes, I think it will be. Ethereum is faster, slicker, and more flexible; it also offers uses and applications ( smart contracts, etc) that are not possible using the Bitcoin protocol. Bitcoin certainly has first-to-market advantage and currently greater network effect, but may change in the future.

cnocbui

I think Etherium is just a Bitcoin proxy that people saw as cheaper than Bitcoin so piled in. People aren't buying it because they have lots of smart contracts they want to implement.

People aren't buying alt coins for their features, they are just gambling/speculating. They are all just different coloured chips in a casino.

pro_gnostic_8

cnocbui wrote: »

People aren't buying alt coins for their features, they are just gambling/speculating.

Dunno about other people, but I bought Ethereum and lesser amounts of Golem, Factom, and Monero mainly for their features. Same as when I first bought Bitcoin back in 2013 -- for its features. Of course, there is an element of speculation involved, I can't deny, but I would only buy a coin if its attributes appealed to me.

I think Etherium is just a Bitcoin proxy that people saw as cheaper than Bitcoin so piled in. People aren't buying it because they have lots of smart contracts they want to implement.

Look, I love Bitcoin, I really do, but I am gradually being priced out of it. Two days ago, I paid a transaction fee of €1.90 on a transferral of €20 worth of bitcoin so that it would go through in a reasonable timeframe. If I didn't, I could expect to wait up to 72 hours for a confirmation. Ridiculous.
I think Bitcoin will always hold its place as an investment vehicle and a store of wealth, but that Ethereum will become the daily workhorse of the internet.

pro_gnostic_8

An hour ago, I conducted my first ever Ethereum transaction.
I withdrew and transferred 10 ETH (910 euro) from Poloniex exchange into my Trezor wallet. The transaction fee was 0.004 ETH -- approx 36 cent. The 10 ETH arrived in my Trezor in just under three minutes.
I am well impressed.

chipfox

Are you hoping to stake you ETH to use the network for free in the future or are you hoping to sell your ETH for BTC/EUR profits? Ethereum isn't a currency and lots of blockchains are cheaper to use than the BTC chain.

You can send a billion dogecoin (~1.1 million euros) for 1 doge (about 1/10th of 1 cent) and it will confirm in a minute.

crowseye

Hi everyone, I'm sure some of you will remember me mentioning an upcoming cryptocurrency that I am involved in as a beta tester and a video I promised I would share when I could. Here it is:

Here's a link to the website aswell http://www.radix.global. The forums are currently being updated to prepare for the upcoming release and I will link it to anyone who's interested once it's ready. Any questions you have should probably be directed there as I am not an expert by any means and I don't want to give anyone incorrect information but I am really excited about the potential of the project As Dan says in the video, there is tech he can't discuss currently being patented, related to Radix and I can't wait to see what people think of it when he can release more information. I've been following this project for a number of years now and I really can't express how excited I am to see it finally coming to fruition

hankbell

Hi Dohnjoe sorry to drag the convo back a couple pages but did you manage to find out any more on this? I'm curious about tax implications on any profits in Ireland and how they're managed or what needs to be done. Thanks!
(can't seem to quote your original post or tag you...)

makeorbrake

@crowseye : In a couple of words, what do you sum up the benefit of this new 'coin' to be over other crypto's?

chipfox

hankbell wrote: »

Hi Dohnjoe sorry to drag the convo back a couple pages but did you manage to find out any more on this? I'm curious about tax implications on any profits in Ireland and how they're managed or what needs to be done. Thanks!
(can't seem to quote your original post or tag you...)

Capital Gains Tax. Or you can be clever and withdraw it all from a bitcoin casino and say you won it all. Tax free. Probably not legal but can't really be proven.

pro_gnostic_8

chipfox wrote: »

Are you hoping to stake you ETH to use the network for free in the future or are you hoping to sell your ETH for BTC/EUR profits? Ethereum isn't a currency and lots of blockchains are cheaper to use than the BTC chain.

Yes, I must admit I'm primarily speculating/investing. I'll sell 'em when if the price ever reaches around $150. I can't see myself using the blockchain or the Ethereum Virtual Machine for computational purposes. Not savvy enough or not coding-literate enough!

Ethereum isn't a currency and lots of blockchains are cheaper to use than the BTC chain.

No indeed, it is a not currency per se ( although it is the token required to buy "gas" to pay for specific actions on the EVM). But it is tradable on exchanges as you are aware. And the imminent implentation of Raiden will enable micropayments via the Ethereum blockchain and asset-transfers (payments/remittances) at a lightning speed and at a rate of a milion transfers per second. As well, I understand that some innovative companies are working on a protocol to accept ETH as purchase payment for product.

crowseye

makeorbrake wrote: »

@crowseye : In a couple of words, what do you sum up the benefit of this new 'coin' to be over other crypto's?

It's not based on a blockchain but on distributed ledger technology, so it doesn't have the issues a lot of coins that use the blockchain have such as issues with scalability, security and handling large amounts of transactions like we see today with bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies.

Confirmation times for transactions are in milliseconds and it can handle more transactions than pretty much anything else out there from what I have seen. You can check out the twitter account RadixDLT where load tests are performed.

Its completely decentralized and unlike other currencies aims to keep a stable value for the currency long term. So you might not see the huge price jumps and falls that you would see in other cryptos and pumps and dumps, it should be pretty steady in price hopefully which should make it more appealing to people who are looking for stability and long term growth over a quick buck.

I'm also really excited about the technology that Dan is currently patenting related to Radix and its potential use in the future.

That's just some of the reasons why I'm excited for it, and like I said I'm no expert the video will give you a better idea why Radix could have the potential to stand out in a crowded market.

Pivot Eoin

Stupid Question guys, so apologies:

On Belgacoin, does the money appear in your wallet as soon as the transfer goes through? I see money taken out of my account, but nothing appearing in Belgacoin. Thanks, want to purchase more today.

Arciphel

Anyone affected by the Kraken DDOS last night?

pro_gnostic_8

Is that what it was?
I was wondering this morning whilst looking at the overnight graphs why the very large dip across ALL the main coins -- BTC, ETH, Monero, Dash. All fell very sharply and in unison at around 00.30 am on Kraken.
Looking at the graphs for a couple of other exchanges, it looks like prices were largely unaffected.
(Yeah, just reading the forums now and it seems it was a strong and determined attack on Kraken).
I reckon a lot of people were burned by this -- people getting margin called etc.

cnocbui

Pivot Eoin wrote: »

Stupid Question guys, so apologies:

On Belgacoin, does the money appear in your wallet as soon as the transfer goes through? I see money taken out of my account, but nothing appearing in Belgacoin. Thanks, want to purchase more today.

No. Expect 24hrs for most native Irish banks. I know that with AIB, they will deduct the money from your account, say at 10 am, but they queue up all the transfers and process them as a batch in the late afternoon. The receiving bank then will have it's own delays in processing the incoming transfers and crediting it to Belgacoin's account the next day.

Rabo bank process their SWIFTs at 13:15, so if you do a transfer at 10 am, the receiving bank will get it that day and will have time to process it before the close of business, remembering that they are already an hour ahead on the continent.

SWIFT - only in name!

pro_gnostic_8

Pivot Eoin wrote: »

Thanks, want to purchase more today.

You're buying when the coin is at an All Time High pricepoint, but you already know that.

cnocbui

pro_gnostic_8 wrote: »

You're buying when the coin is at an All Time High pricepoint, but you already know that.

The reason it's at that all time high point would appear to be that there is greater demand than supply. I think there are a lot of new people queing up, trying to get into cryptos at the moment.

So when do you expect it to fall and by how much? In that latest and most recent dip, the poor thing couldn't even get below ?1250 and now it's just about hit ?1480 a couple minutes ago. The steepness of that rise suggests to me it may well dip again, but I doubt by much or for long.

Didn't you just buy some Etherium - strictly for it's technical qualities of course - at pretty much an all-time high?

pro_gnostic_8

No, I had ETH at $32; finally got around to withdrawing it from Poloniex yesterday -- because my Trezor cold-storage wallet couldn't accept it ( Trezor only updated the firmware to incorporate ETH recently).
Anyway, I' not trying to be judgemental about Eoin's decision to buy at this time. It's his move -- he wants bitcoin and is prepared to pay for it. Good luck to him! I just think that buying at an ATH pint is never a sound move. Buy at the dips. Which is why I don't understand why he doesn't just sign up to an exchange like Bitstamp to enable him to put in buy orders at a lowball price. You can often strike very lucky in the these notoriously wildly fluctuating crypto markets.
I bought once on Localcbitcoins at the prevailing rate. But never again. Exchanges all the way now for me.

hankbell

chipfox wrote: »

Capital Gains Tax. Or you can be clever and withdraw it all from a bitcoin casino and say you won it all. Tax free. Probably not legal but can't really be proven.

Thanks @chipfox , that's interesting alright. I was just curious whether or not it is charged as CGT because of this response from the Irish finance minister a few years ago. Here's a quote you've all probably read already before:

"Crypto-currencies, such as Bitcoin, are not legal tender in the Euro area. E-commerce, including the use of virtual currencies, presents a challenge to tax administrations throughout the world. The Revenue Commissioners and tax administrations in other countries are actively monitoring developments. From the information provided, it is not clear how Bitcoin would be treated for CGT purposes. However, it is likely that gains accruing from speculation on Bitcoin would be liable for CGT in the normal way."

That reply doesn't exactly say it is treated this way as I guess it's not seen as legal tender yet. It seems just to speculate that it might one day be that profits made on BC will be treated under CGT.

Am I just understanding this incorrectly or are we certain that BC is seen as legal tender and is taxed as CGT?

cheers!

cnocbui

hankbell wrote: »

Thanks @chipfox , that's interesting alright. I was just curious whether or not it is charged as CGT because of this response from the Irish finance minister a few years ago. Here's a quote you've all probably read already before:

"Crypto-currencies, such as Bitcoin, are not legal tender in the Euro area. E-commerce, including the use of virtual currencies, presents a challenge to tax administrations throughout the world. The Revenue Commissioners and tax administrations in other countries are actively monitoring developments. From the information provided, it is not clear how Bitcoin would be treated for CGT purposes. However, it is likely that gains accruing from speculation on Bitcoin would be liable for CGT in the normal way."

That reply doesn't exactly say it is treated this way as I guess it's not seen as legal tender yet. It seems just to speculate that it might one day be that profits made on BC will be treated under CGT.

Am I just understanding this incorrectly or are we certain that BC is seen as legal tender and is taxed as CGT?

cheers!

Property isn't legal tender, neither are antiques or shares, but that doesn't excuse a realised appreciation in their value from CGT.

I am certain in my mind, at least, that there is no doubt that a realised gain in value with Bitcoin will be treated by Revenue just the same as any other asset.

cnocbui

Well that certainly has some really big horns on it: http://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/08/bitcoin-price-hits-record-high-and-4000-is-ahead-investor-says.html

Also saw a comment by a chartist on Reddit who thinks there might be a bit a of temporary pull back, which echos what is in the article. Here's hoping it happens, as I wouldn't mind taking advantage.

Pivot Eoin

When is this so called pulled back meant to happen?