Ireland Vs Austria - K/O 7:45PM - Sky Sports 2 & RTÉ 2

applehunter

@wonderfulllife How many times did the Forde pass the ball to his full-back tonight?

Ferris_Bueller

Usually stick up for Trappatoni but tonight I think he warrants his critics, despite the fact some people seem like they were just waiting to clobber him. It's clear to everyone that from the 70th minute onwards things started to go downhill fairly quick, but Trap never really addressed it, I think he thought we would cling on (which we nearly did) but he was always running the risk of conceding the equaliser.

I actually thought that Green was the correct sub to make when he came on. Playing him on the right though and moving Walters up front is where I think Trap has failed us tonight though, seriously don't see any logic behind that, if this was what he was going to do he needed to bring on another midfielder for Sammon to tighten it up in midfield and make it easier for us to hold onto the ball, sticking with 4-4-2 in the last 20 mins f*cked us. Very disappointing because it had been going well for the first 55 minutes or so and 4 points from those two games would have been a great return.

Two things I think are worth saying - Hoolahan seems to be the new great "hope" for the fans. He is a very tidy player and definitely think he could have contributed both tonight and on Friday, but people are pinning a lot of hope on him, as if Trap is ignoring a world class player. I hate when Irish fans do this, it has happened with the two Reids, Shane Long, McClean and many more before, where the fans seem to over estimate the importance of one individual to the team. I'm sure Hoolahan would be a good addition to the team, but really I would put it more so down to the fact he would be a third midfielder more so than down to his quality.

Also, we aren't completely out of it yet. While it is going to be a big ask for us to qualify, it is still a possibility, Sweden at home should be nothing to fear and away to Austria is another game where 3 points isn't crazy, although both games will be tricky.

EdenHazard

Morzadec wrote: »

That end of match interview was something else. Never seen the likes of it on RTE and was surprised with some of the suggestions and questions.

Thought it was highly reactive and results-based thinking.

The question about him resigning was preposterous.

I think Trappatoni was right to be indignant and to remind us that we are no world beaters.

Lets be honest with ourselves - on paper our squad would struggle to stay in the Premiership/get out of the Championship. That is the level we are talking about. A yoyoing Premier League/Championship side at best imo.

All in all I thought we played alright tonight.

I hope Long starts every game from here on in. He was fantastic, looked a cut above and you could tell he was our only player starting regularly in a top 10 Premier League side.

So are Austria yet they dominated us at home. clichés such as 'better techincal players' doesn't come into it 58 to 42 per cent is a complete joke. we let every team dominate us no matter who thjey are

Clarke, O'Shea, Coleman Wilson-all prem back 4
whelan mccarthy mcclean walters-all prem midfield
long-prem

MisterAnarchy

madma wrote: »

are u f&cking serious - they really are scum

Yes ,so it would seem

In the league format, the ranking in each group is determined as follows:
a)
greatest number of points obtained in all group matches;
b)
goal difference in all group matches;
c)
greatest number of goals scored in all group matches

Dempsey

EdenHazard wrote: »

So are Austria yet they dominated us at home. clichés such as 'better techincal players' doesn't come into it 58 to 42 per cent is a complete joke. we let every team dominate us no matter who thjey are

Clarke, O'Shea, Coleman Wilson-all prem back 4
whelan mccarthy mcclean walters-all prem midfield
long-prem

Being able to field 7 or 10 premier league footballers means fúck all tbh

Bar McCarthy, who's game isnt dependent on direct football?

Mikeyt086

As gutted/angry/upset as anyone, but just wanted to say, Seamus Coleman, James McCarthy and Shane Long are absolute class and we are lucky we have them to build our future squads around. They should be the first 3 names on the team-sheet now. All 3 are young, hungry and playing well regularly in the Premier League. All 3 were outstanding tonight.

WallyGUFC

Dempsey wrote: »

Being able to field 7 or 10 premier league footballers means fúck all tbh

Bar McCarthy, who's game isnt dependent on direct football?

Hoolahan...oh wait.

wonderfullife

Trap made a couple of big mistakes tonight but whether they definitely cost us is anybodys guess.

Sammon was out on his feet at the 60 min mark. Walters was huffing and puffing.

We were getting over-run in midfield, the gaps in between the back 4 and midfield was widening.

Usually Ireland drop deep to defend a lead, we didn't actually do that, we tried to keep shape but didn't have the legs in midfield.

Sammon and Walters put in good shifts. At 60-65 mins bring on Green and Hoolahan, you have 2 holding mids and an extra outlet. Hoolahan alone wasn't the answer, no point having a player who is good on the ball if everyone else is knackered and can't run. We needed both Green and Hoolahan on. With a lead we had no need to go wide or push the full backs on, so the introduction of an extra holding midfielder and Wes was vital.

Taking off Long instead of Sammon was an error. Not putting on more fresh legs was an error.

All that being said, we just don't know if those changes alone would have prevented the result. Austria showed they are a good side and there's no guarantees those changes would have proved the difference. It is, however, the managers fault for not making those changes.

All still to play for in this group. Assuming Germany spank us away, which they likely will, we can still qualify. If we, somehow, got anything at all in Germany that would be epic of course.

Lets just beat the Faroes and see what we can do in September, it's still on, just more difficult now.

dsmythy

The luck from the last campaign was never going to continue. Getting the other side of it now.

WoollyRedHat

mada999 wrote: »

egg on face, he runs his guts into the ground every game, should be on most games if you ask me

In this game yes, in the previous game he did not perform to expectations.

WallyGUFC

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

Seems that alot of people are uneducated about international football and seem to think that Ireland have better players than Austria?

Come on lads ye know that Austria are superior to Ireland

Absolutely ludicrous.

Dempsey

WallyGUFC wrote: »

Hoolahan...oh wait.

in case you missed it or not bothered to read peoples posts, he didnt play tonight. my post refered to a post talking about the amount of epl playere in the starting lineup so shove your thanks whoring post where the sun dont shine!
:P

born2bwild

Oh well...I just hope Shels beat Derry on Friday.

Hoolohan would agree..McClean wouldn't but we're fycked for Rio so let's just concentrate on the serious business of the league.

gnfnrhead

Unfortunatly I said after the Sweden game that anything less than a win here would mean its all but over. Trap's negatity has turned what could have been six points into only two points. If we went for it, we could have beaten both teams. We didnt do it so now we're looking at the very bad prospect of likely needing four wins out of five games, and even then not being guaranteed second place.

Hope nobody booked plane tickets yet.

Pro. F

Banjaxed82 wrote: »

The only Brazil will be of the nut kind.

This is great craic! Who's next?

The only Brazilian we'll see will be on a gee.

born2bwild

Pro. F wrote: »

The only Brazilian we'll see will be on a gee.

Crude but entirely correct. If a tad optimistic.

Why didn't Trap bring on Hoolohan? Perhaps he doesn't like his guitar playing?

WallyGUFC

Dempsey wrote: »

in case you missed it or not bothered to read peoples posts, he didnt play tonight. my post refered to a post talking about the amount of epl playere in the starting lineup so shove your thanks whoring post where the sun dont shine!
:P

Not looking for thanks at all really, didn't realise you meant just starters. It's just sad to see our players shackled and our best technical players being frozen out. Hoolahan should have 30 or 40 caps at this stage, the moment he gets the ball you can see he's far and away our most comfortable player on the ball. Of course long ball works sometimes, but not when the big man is a) out on his feet and b) not even that good in the air. It took Wilson, McCarthy, Coleman etc. long enough to break into the team. The player turnover has been extraordinary since Trap took over too. I mean obviously some are retirements and such, but even after 5 years, more and more hugely limited players are being given games when there are better options left on the bench. It's tiresome.

It's no fun watching Ireland anymore. Occasions like beating the Dutch in 01 seem so long ago. I know the squad was better then, but we are still better than this. We were all encouraged by Friday night, but tonight was just horrific. Austria at home ffs. We're better than this. We should be demanding better of a man who's paid 1.5 million beans a year. 5 years at the helm, and I know we qualified for the Euros, but in all honesty I'd rather not get to tournaments if we're just going to be hammered. Last Summer was depressing. I dunno. I used to make time to watch Ireland. Never miss a game. Never mind Man United, Galway United, I'd ALWAYS want to watch Ireland. Now its changed. It's just not the same. And I'm sure I'm not the only one feeling this way. It's just sad is all.

wonderfullife

It's really worth remembering in all this that Austria are in a slightly false position in the table. They have played Kazaks twice. So whilst they may be level on points with a better goal difference, they have had an easier set of fixtures to us (so far) and have picked up only the same amount of points. Their draw in Astana proved it's a tricky place to go to and they can only compensate for that by beating us at home or picking up a point in Sweden.

At the start of the group it was vital we took 12 points from Faeroes and Kazaks. We're well on course to do that. Writing off Germany, a sequence of results from Sweden and Austria of D, D, W, D wouldn't put us far off the play-offs.

It's by no means certain on recent evidence that Sweden will take 6 points off Austria. Zlatan aside they aren't a class above Austria (or us). Anything Austria take off Sweden is a bonus for us.

FlawedGenius

Looking back at the last 4 mins, we never made an effort to get the ball into the corner really, and when Green tipped it to Mcarthy in the middle of the park(in the 91s min), he lobbed it straight down the pitch to there keeper who started the Austrian attack. Why not lob it towards the corner flag:(..... Should of kept hold of it anyway but jesus christ Ive never seen Ireland throw a game like that away before

simongurnick

Anyone else think that after watching the two games Austria look a better outfit that Sweden? They have some decent young players who ply their trade in the Bundesliga and will definitely trouble the Swedes in their two games.

wonderfullife

WallyGUFC wrote: »

Not looking for thanks at all really, didn't realise you meant just starters. It's just sad to see our players shackled and our best technical players being frozen out. Hoolahan should have 30 or 40 caps at this stage, the moment he gets the ball you can see he's far and away our most comfortable player on the ball. Of course long ball works sometimes, but not when the big man is a) out on his feet and b) not even that good in the air. It took Wilson, McCarthy, Coleman etc. long enough to break into the team. The player turnover has been extraordinary since Trap took over too. I mean obviously some are retirements and such, but even after 5 years, more and more hugely limited players are being given games when there are better options left on the bench. It's tiresome.

It's no fun watching Ireland anymore. Occasions like beating the Dutch in 01 seem so long ago. I know the squad was better then, but we are still better than this. We were all encouraged by Friday night, but tonight was just horrific. Austria at home ffs. We're better than this. We should be demanding better of a man who's paid 1.5 million beans a year. 5 years at the helm, and I know we qualified for the Euros, but in all honesty I'd rather not get to tournaments if we're just going to be hammered. Last Summer was depressing. I dunno. I used to make time to watch Ireland. Never miss a game. Never mind Man United, Galway United, I'd ALWAYS want to watch Ireland. Now its changed. It's just not the same. And I'm sure I'm not the only one feeling this way. It's just sad is all.

That team contained Shay Given, Robbie Keane, Damien Duff, Roy Keane in/or near their prime. It also contained a supporting cast of players who were top performers at club level - Gary Kelly and Ian Harte were playing Champions League Football for Leeds in the preceding seasons, Richard Dunne had been bought by City and his stock high, even Matt Holland and Skillbane were enjoying purple patches at club level.

If Trap had those players and Holland rolled into town with Kluivert, Overmars etc there's nothing to say he wouldn't get a similar result. We didn't exactly batter Holland off the park in that game either, Roy Keane ran his nuts off and played a blinder shutting down the channels from Van Bommel, Cocu and Zenden.

"Austria ffs?" - this Austrian team has regulars for Bayern Munich and Schalke ffs!! Just because they are ranked lower than us doesn't mean we have a divine right to roll them over at home.

So far this campaign we have lost once to one of the best teams in world football. Otherwise we're unbeaten, we haven't slipped up against genuine minnows in our group and have it all to play for still. We're all disappointed we didn't hang on tonight. We made a mess of that late free kick it should have been held in that corner flag for a minute and clock ran down.

Anyway we're still in the hunt and I for one would have taken this sequence of results at the outset of the campaign. An away point in Sweden and home draw at Austria is by no means curtains.

WallyGUFC

Midlife Crashes wrote: »

Trapattoni
Juventus
Italian League (6): 1976–77, 1977–78, 1980–81, 1981–82, 1983–84, 1985–86
Italian Cup (2): 1978–79, 1982–83
European Cup (1): 1984–85
UEFA Cup Winners' Cup (1): 1984
UEFA Cup (2): 1977, 1993
European Super Cup (1): 1984
Intercontinental Cup (1): 1985

Internazionale
Italian League (1): 1988–89
Supercoppa Italiana: 1989
UEFA Cup (1): 1991

Bayern Munich
German League (1): 1996–97
German Cup (1): 1997–98
German League Cup (1): 1996–97

Benfica
Portuguese League (1): 2004–05

Red Bull Salzburg
Austrian League (1): 2006–07

Republic of Ireland
Nations Cup (1): 2011

Brian Mc Dermott.
Half season Premier League experience..

Why do people always bring this bullsh*t argument up? Of course he's won more, he's 23 years older ffs. Just because he won the Austrian Premier League in 2007 or Serie A in 1977 doesn't mean he still has it at 74 years of age. It's an absolutely ridiculous argument. He's probably won more than Guardiola, does that make him a better manager? Might have won more than Mourinho, he's better than him too? Good God if you're going to try the impossible and defend Trap, at least give your argument some credence. OF COURSE SOMEBODY MANAGING FOR OVER 40 YEARS WILL HAVE WON TITLES!! He's from a different era. 442 doesn't work anymore. Many people on this board could do a better job managing the Irish team than him imo, and for far less money.

EDIT: Austria have ONE regular each for Bayern and Schalke. One.

Pro. F

Disorganised mess of a game from Ireland tonight. We started the game very poorly, getting very little pressure onto the Austrians. Picked it up when we needed to get goals and did well for a while. Then fell away as the second half wore on.

You can't defend so deep and control the ball so little and expect to hold on to a one goal lead. Taking off Long and leaving two knackered target men up front was a terrible choice. Sticking with 442 was also a terrible choice. Trap has no appreciation of how holding onto the ball can actually relieve the pressure and help us defend better.

The lads pressed the Austrians well at times and it caused them problems for a time. But the old flaw of complete inability to control the ball was our undoing. That's what happens when all the management focuses on is defending and all the selections are based around work ethic and athleticism.

Edit: I despise the way Trap jumps to the "we're not Germany or England, what do you expect?" excuse. If you don't aim high then you end up with nothing. I know Tony O'Ds question was insulting, but Trap's answer, talking down the team, was still unacceptable. And he says that shít all the time.

2nd Edit: I also agree that the group isn't over yet. We could conceivably draw with Sweden and beat Austria.

nkay1985

Just finished reading the thread after getting back from the game. So disappointed to have only come away with a draw. I'm not one who leaps to the "sack the manager" response but it's getting ridiculous at this stage. We were great for 65 minutes, bar the mistake for their first goal.

At the 65 minute Mark, it was obvious to the entire stadium that Sammon was out on his feet. He's not great but he'd done his job but was wrecked at that stage. Trap needed to make a change then. Nothing. 15 minutes passed before a change was made. 15 minutes in which barely one ball stuck in the forwards, causing us to fall deeper and deeper.

Then the change comes and it's Shane Long who's having the game of his life and still looks full of beans who comes off. Fair enough if he then slots him in as a DMC and leaves Sammon up front on his own but no, not even that happened!

We continue to get destroyed and hang on by the skin of our teeth but our manager decides there's no benefit in bringing on a fresh pair of legs, even just to waste time? The inevitable happens and they score the equaliser and we all go away disappointed, when we really didn't need to.

How anybody can defend Trap's management of that game from 65 minutes on is beyond me.

wonderfullife

WallyGUFC wrote: »

EDIT: Austria have ONE regular each for Bayern and Schalke. One.

Which brings it to TWO more than we have playing Champions League football.

Just to put this in perspective:

A lot of people here, including myself, were very disappointed Hoolahan was not brought on. Most were disappointed he didn't start. Eamon Dunphy went on like he was the Messiah like difference between the win and draw.

When our "saviour" is a lad who is 30 years old, playing for a relegation-threatened side in England, and whose career has brought him to Shels, Livingstone, Blackpool and Norwich, it surely sums up what a job Trap is doing on the whole.

There is no excuse for Traps failure to integrate Coleman sooner, ditto McCarthy. But selection issues aside look at what we're dealing with overall. Dunphy likes to use the word "journeyman" when it suits him, well spending most of a career in LOI, scotland and the Championship in England sounds like journeyman to me.

Even if Hoolahan came on (or started) we ran into a good side, on balance a draw was a fair result in the match. Their goals came from an absolute defensive howler and a long range deflected strike. On another day, Clark hoofs it into row Z and the strike doesn't take a deflection.

The group is still alive after 5 games and that has to be positive given our inexperienced squad. We could genuinely be out of sight by now having been peppered by Germany and Sweden or slipping up in Astana.

We're doing fine and we're certainly nowhere near territory of sack the manager talk when he won't be around after Brazil whether we qualify or not. If this group was dead and buried then yeah by all means sack him and let a new coach use the last 5 games to try out some ideas. It's NOT, it's all to play for.

applehunter

@ wonderfulllife : Hoolahan should have a hell of a lot more caps than the 3 he has(all as sub?)

For Trap to choose Sammon ahead of him is a disgrace considering what we saw against Poland & Sweden on Friday.

Yes he played for...Shels, Livingston, Blackpool & Norwich and he has been a top performer at each club. He has shown enough for Norwich this season and last that he should be in the Irish side. You contradict yourself so often I don't even know why I'm replying.

Shane Long played for Cork City, Reading & West Brom and he was the best player on the pitch tonight. Stupid point.

As for our group, its going to be very tough to get 2nd place now.

wonderfullife

applehunter wrote: »

@ wonderfulllife : Hoolahan should have a hell of a lot more caps than the 3 he has(all as sub?)

For Trap to choose Sammon ahead of him is a disgrace considering what we saw against Poland & Sweden on Friday.

Yes he played for...Shels, Livingston, Blackpool & Norwich and he has been a top performer at each club. He has shown enough for Norwich this season and last that he should be in the Irish side. You contradict yourself so often I don't even know why I'm replying.

Shane Long played for Cork City, Reading & West Brom and he was the best player on the pitch tonight. Stupid point.

As for our group, its going to be very tough to get 2nd place now.

Shane Long was with Cork City for a year as a 17 year old, Hoolahan was at Shels 5 years until he was 24. Long is also 6 years younger than Hoolahan.

The point, if you tried to understand, is that the player we are apparently arguing is the difference between a draw and win tonight is a 30 year old journeyman player. Versus a decade ago when a previous poster mentioned the Ireland v Holland match and the array of talent we had at our disposal then. It's not a slight on Hoolahan, i do rate him.

T-K-O

Wes not getting a game is irrelevant to the result. Anyone with two working eyes could see that Sammon ran outta gas about 60/65 minutes.

He needed to come off and someone on Green / Wes who ever. The who didn't really matter.

eagle eye

McCarthy didn't play well towards the end of the game, the Austrians ran rings around him but I don't hear anybody complaining that he was left on.

applehunter

@ wonderfulllife : Again with the contradictions.

I don't know what point you are making. I have argued that Wes Hoolahan is one of our best players. So I think it would potentially make a difference when he doesn't play.

Obviously I can't say for sure as has never been given a go. But, on the limited evidence of his last 2 appearances we look a much better side when he is in the side.

Difference was night and day.

Take Roy Keane out of the Ireland side that day in 2001 and what do you have.

Honestly I don't know what you are getting at with your points?

Pro. F

eagle eye wrote: »

McCarthy didn't play well towards the end of the game, the Austrians ran rings around him but I don't hear anybody complaining that he was left on.

The Austrians rang rings around the whole team. McCarthy was far from the biggest problem.

wonderfullife

applehunter wrote: »

@ wonderfulllife : Again with the contradictions.

I don't know what point you are making. I have argued that Wes Hoolahan is one of our best players. So I think it would potentially make a difference when he doesn't play.

What are you saying?

There's no contradiction. You just made my point for me.

I agree Wes is one of our best players. But fact remains he's a journeyman player. You can't argue he has had a stellar career because he played well for Shels LOI, Livingston in scotland, Blackpool and Norwich.

So my point was and is - our talent pool is so poor relative to the squad we had 2001 v Holland that our potentially game changing players (or better players) are the likes of Hoolahan.

This was all in response to the poster saying we are now sh1te and not worth watching and he misses the old days like v Holland in 2001. My point was even our better players are poor compared to then and Trap is doing a pretty good job overall with the talent pool he has.

gnfnrhead

If 4 clubs makes you a journeyman, what the hell is Robbie Keane?

Hoolahan is one of our better players. Would his introduction have won the game? Maybe, maybe not. It would however have given us a much better chance.

wonderfullife

gnfnrhead wrote: »

If 4 clubs makes you a journeyman, what the hell is Robbie Keane?

Hoolahan is one of our better players. Would his introduction have won the game? Maybe, maybe not. It would however have given us a much better chance.

I've always understood journeyman to mean someone who spends their career at various clubs in the lower leagues or poor leagues.

I don't think you can say Inter Milan, Spurs, Liverpool, Leeds (at the time) etc fall into that category.

Agree totally, and have consistently since the match, the introduction of Green & Hoolahan in the 65th minute would have increased the likelihood of holding on to the win.

Timmyctc

wonderfullife wrote: »

Shane Long was with Cork City for a year as a 17 year old, Hoolahan was at Shels 5 years until he was 24. Long is also 6 years younger than Hoolahan.

The point, if you tried to understand, is that the player we are apparently arguing is the difference between a draw and win tonight is a 30 year old journeyman player. Versus a decade ago when a previous poster mentioned the Ireland v Holland match and the array of talent we had at our disposal then. It's not a slight on Hoolahan, i do rate him.

I'd rather a Journeyman like Hoolahan even for 30mins at the end than Sammon who managed what?Like 8 goals in his last 70 games. A player like Hoolahans quality over a player like Sammon's quality, or lack thereof, usually is the difference between a draw and a win.

Also

In British English, a journeyman is a player who has represented many different clubs over his career.

applehunter

wonderfullife wrote: »

This was all in response to the poster saying we are now sh1te and not worth watching and he misses the old days like v Holland in 2001. My point was even our better players are poor compared to then and Trap is doing a pretty good job overall with the talent pool he has.

If Trap is doing a good job with the talent pool he has(presume you mean limited) why has, as you put it "one of our best players" only 3 caps?

You don't see that as as bit of a contradiction?

wonderfullife

Timmyctc wrote: »

I'd rather a Journeyman like Hoolahan even for 30mins at the end than Sammon who managed what?Like 8 goals in his last 70 games. A player like Hoolahans quality over a player like Sammon's quality, or lack thereof, usually is the difference between a draw and a win.

Agree, defo, Sammon put in a good shift, played a role in our first goal, played a role in Longs effort off the post, put himself about well.

But his race was run by the 60th minute. He was out of gas. Everybody could see it (except Trap). As i said i'd have liked Green & Hoolahand ON for Walters & Sammon OFF, leaving Long up top in a 4-5-1 but crucially giving us fresh legs and an extra outlet to hold on to the ball.

Lamper.sffc

FutureGuy wrote: »

Ok so our CB goes off injured with a shoulder injury. Who else would you bring on instead of St Ledger?

You also think putting an attacking midfielder, who plays in the hole for his club on when our midfield is being overrun is a good idea?

If he brought on Houlihan in that situation, he should have been shot.

The lack of basic footballing sense being spouted by some is amazing.

And to be fair my friend, I would have to put you at the top of that list

wonderfullife

applehunter wrote: »

If Trap is doing a good job with the talent pool he has(presume you mean limited) why has, as you put it "one of our best players" only 3 caps?

You don't see that as as bit of a contradiction?

That's partly down to Hoolahan himself surely! Up until what 25 years old he had only played for Shels and Livingstone. Since then he's been a bit of a late blossoming player. So he's had what 3 or 4 years where he's been putting his hand up for selection so to speak. His ability in the past 2 years deserved more caps but that applies to Coleman, Wilson and more.

It's not a contradiction to say our talent pool is limited and Wes is one of the better current players. Trap is doing a good job with that limited pool and if one of our better ball players like Hoolahan doesn't fit into his system or tactics then he'll get less caps. But selection controversies aside, our overall record under Trap is excellent relative to predecessors like Kerr, Staunton, McCarthy, all of whom had better talent pools available to them.

applehunter

wonderfullife wrote: »

That's partly down to Hoolahan himself surely! Up until what 25 years old he had only played for Shels and Livingstone. Since then he's been a bit of a late blossoming player. So he's had what 3 or 4 years where he's been putting his hand up for selection so to speak. His ability in the past 2 years deserved more caps but that applies to Coleman, Wilson and more.

It's not a contradiction to say our talent pool is limited and Wes is one of the better current players. Trap is doing a good job with that limited pool and if one of our better ball players like Hoolahan doesn't fit into his system or tactics then he'll get less caps. But selection controversies aside, our overall record under Trap is excellent relative to predecessors like Kerr, Staunton, McCarthy, all of whom had better talent pools available to them.

I think you are doing this on purpose.

gnfnrhead

wonderfullife wrote: »

I've always understood journeyman to mean someone who spends their career at various clubs in the lower leagues or poor leagues.

I don't think you can say Inter Milan, Spurs, Liverpool, Leeds (at the time) etc fall into that category.

Agree totally, and have consistently since the match, the introduction of Green & Hoolahan in the 65th minute would have increased the likelihood of holding on to the win.

Fair enough. My definition is the same as what Timmy posted: "In British English, a journeyman is a player who has represented many different clubs over his career." A simple misunderstanding between our definitions

As for Hoolahan being 30, Ian Wright was pushing 30 when he joined Arsenal and went on to become the record goal scorer. Sometimes players dont peak until later in their careers. He made his England debut around the same time.

SirDelboy18

So my feelings on this -

1. Trap finally over the last two games has integrated our best players into the starting 11. It took him 3-4 years and the threat of job security to actually select those best equipped to help us win (at different times it was different players, but he always ignored players that had huge cases for inclusion at different times). Unfortunately some players were unavailable through injury (Pilkington) or exile (Gibson). What a disgrace that Long only made his 3rd or 4th start tonight despite being our best striker for at least a year. What a disgrace. The same goes for Coleman, Wilson, McCarthy, Clark etc.

2. Despite his integration of these players, his style hasn't changed that much. We don't play as much long ball anymore because these players are confident on the ball - that isn't a Trappatoni change. He selected Sammon tonight rather than Hoolahan, and wanted to leave out McCarthy vs Sweden proves that he hasn't changed. He still doesn't rate us and his comments after the game proved this. He sets up the team as if they are bad. They aren't. This team is far superior to Austria. Tonight should have been different.

3. His game and player management is appalling. Against Sweden, Hoolahan didn't get enough game time and tonight he got none. The change that was obvious to everyone tonight wasn't made - had we brought on Hoolahan we would have regained composure, not tired as much, relieved pressure on the back four and it is extremely likely that we would have won. Instead he replaced our best performer and left a man clearly out on his feet on the pitch. He couldn't adapt to the match as it developed and this has been a pattern of his entire reign. Too often we hold on or sit back because of Trap's negative mentality. It's toxic.

4. Player relationships/interaction - One of the worst sides of his reign. Alienated countless players and was stubborn about many others. Imagine if Darron Gibson was available tonight to come off the bench instead of Paul Green.

5. These players were all performing well for their clubs before the Euros - Long, McCarthy, Coleman, Wilson, Clark, Pilkington, Hoolahan. He didn't bed them in and made excuses that they had no experience - yet he gives Clark his first competitive start away to Sweden. The lack of consistency is incredibly amusing and leaves him with no excuse for his Euros squad and starting 11. This also applies for our other group matches so far. Disgraceful

6. Liam Brady is an embarrassment to himself. So biased it's genuinely frustrating.

7. We can't qualify with this man in charge, tonight proved that. Tonight was a must win and was our easiest game remaining, excluding the minnows. Have no idea how we can come second now - extremely unlikely. I think he should leave and allow someone else to come in to be able to hit the ground running with the campaign for Euro 2016. I feel so sorry for our players.

8. I remember the days when I loved Ireland. I remember travelling up to the Portugal and Holland games back in 2001 (or whenever it was) and how excited and how great it was. I used to love supporting my country, going to matches etc. Now its a chore, a completely depressing activity that doesn't excite me. I haven't been to a game since 2009, despite currently living withing walking distance of the Aviva. This man has ruined my national team - I'm sick and tired of him. Tonight hurts more because he gave me hope on Tuesday that he could change. He can't. Time's up. Trap out.

wonderfullife

applehunter wrote: »

I think you are doing this on purpose.

Kagawa at Man Utd is a better ball player imo than Carrick. If Ferguson wants to play 4-4-2 all season with a false striker/number 10, chances are Kagawa gets less appearances than Carrick.

There's no contradiction inherent in that.

If one of our better footballers in Hoolahan doesn't fit in Traps system he'll get less caps than inferior players who do.

tvnutz

Was at the game, going 2-1 up at half time ended up being our undoing. Because I knew right away in the 2nd half Trap's "tactic" would be sit back and try defend. Had we pushed forward I think we could have gotten another goal, we came close from some set pieces. But with 25 mins to go I turned to my mate and said, this will end 2-2. Just based on how we were playing.

You cannot sit back and invite pressure on you and expect not to concede, unless you have an amazing defence. 25 mins to go and when their defenders had the ball, Long and Sammon were at the half way line, they were obviously told not to press any further. Within that last 25 mins there were several time that all of our 11 players were in our own half, this is just a shocking way to play when you only have a one goal lead in a must win game. It was inevitable that we would concede. This was all down to Trap. Long was our best player, Coleman 2nd. Yet Long is taken offf (ok he might have been wrecked) yet Sammon played 90mins. This is just unbelievable. He was shocking, he was actually getting mocked in the stadium everytime he got the ball because 90% of the time he lost it. He has started 35 games for Derby and only scored 7 goals in the championship.

The players have to take the blame for some stupid decisions,like in stoppage time when we had a free kick near their corner flag and we basically passed it back to them,but overall the 2nd half was a deliberate tactic by the manager to try keep a one goal lead with not world class players. He needs to go, end of story.

SirDelboy18

wonderfullife wrote: »

Kagawa at Man Utd is a better ball player imo than Carrick. If Ferguson wants to play 4-4-2 all season with a false striker/number 10, chances are Kagawa gets less appearances than Carrick.

There's no contradiction inherent in that.

If one of our better footballers in Hoolahan doesn't fit in Traps system he'll get less caps than inferior players who do.

I thought most of us would have been of the opinion that the Trap "system" is a complete joke.

simongurnick

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

So my feelings on this -



8. I remember the days when I loved Ireland. I remember travelling up to the Portugal and Holland games back in 2001 (or whenever it was) and how excited and how great it was. I used to love supporting my country, going to matches etc. Now its a chore, a completely depressing activity that doesn't excite me. I haven't been to a game since 2009, despite currently living withing walking distance of the Aviva. This man has ruined my national team - I'm sick and tired of him. Tonight hurts more because he gave me hope on Tuesday that he could change. He can't. Time's up. Trap out.

You're within walking distance of the ground and you don't even go to the games. What a disgrace!
You are the epitome of everything that is wrong with our support.
I have been exiled in Canada for five years and would give anything to be at a match.
Brutal man!

SirDelboy18

simongurnick wrote: »

You're within walking distance of the ground and you don't even go to the games. What a disgrace!
You are the epitome of everything that is wrong with our support.
I have been exiled in Canada for five years and would give anything to be at a match.
Brutal man!

I refuse to support a man and organisation that has ruined this international team for me. I refuse to support a man who has alienated and abused our players and put himself in front of the team repeatedly. I refuse to support a man who, until his job was under threat, refused to watch our players play.

I could go on but I won't. The fact is that many agree with me. I genuinely feel for a lot of the players but I can't go to games and help to pay his wages. I held that season ticket scheme thing for many years so chances are I have contributed quite a lot more than many to supporting Ireland ( not that it matters to me ). I'll go to games when the FAI stop destroying our national team.

simongurnick

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

I refuse to support a man and organisation that has ruined this international team for me. I refuse to support a man who has alienated and abused our players and put himself in front of the team repeatedly. I refuse to support a man who, until his job was under threat, refused to watch our players play.

I could go on but I won't. The fact is that many agree with me. I genuinely feel for a lot of the players but I can't go to games and help to pay his wages. I held that season ticket scheme thing for many years so chances are I have contributed quite a lot more than many to supporting Ireland ( not that it matters to me ). I'll go to games when the FAI stop destroying our national team.

It's not about the manager or the FAI, it's about the lads on the pitch.

wonderfullife

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

So my feelings on this -

1. Trap finally over the last two games has integrated our best players into the starting 11. It took him 3-4 years and the threat of job security to actually select those best equipped to help us win (at different times it was different players, but he always ignored players that had huge cases for inclusion at different times). Unfortunately some players were unavailable through injury (Pilkington) or exile (Gibson). What a disgrace that Long only made his 3rd or 4th start tonight despite being our best striker for at least a year. What a disgrace. The same goes for Coleman, Wilson, McCarthy, Clark etc.

In that 3 or 4 years we qualified for a major tournament. Which is something we didn't do under successive previous managers with better players available to them.

2. Despite his integration of these players, his style hasn't changed that much. We don't play as much long ball anymore because these players are confident on the ball - that isn't a Trappatoni change. He selected Sammon tonight rather than Hoolahan, and wanted to leave out McCarthy vs Sweden proves that he hasn't changed. He still doesn't rate us and his comments after the game proved this. He sets up the team as if they are bad. They aren't. This team is far superior to Austria. Tonight should have been different.

So the style hasn't changed much yet the following sentence you say we don't play as much long ball. Which is it? The style has changed SLIGHTLY, we are attempting to play more football, less direct. The first half tonight was a great example of combining direct play to Sammon with on the floor play from McClean, Long, etc

3. His game and player management is appalling. Against Sweden, Hoolahan didn't get enough game time and tonight he got none. The change that was obvious to everyone tonight wasn't made - had we brought on Hoolahan we would have regained composure, not tired as much, relieved pressure on the back four and it is extremely likely that we would have won. Instead he replaced our best performer and left a man clearly out on his feet on the pitch. He couldn't adapt to the match as it developed and this has been a pattern of his entire reign. Too often we hold on or sit back because of Trap's negative mentality. It's toxic.

His mistake tonight was not the Hoolahan decision. It was not getting a knackered Sammon off the field for ANYBODY at 60 mins.

4. Player relationships/interaction - One of the worst sides of his reign. Alienated countless players and was stubborn about many others. Imagine if Darron Gibson was available tonight to come off the bench instead of Paul Green.

Alienated players are irrelevant to tonight, who we didn't have with us doesn't matter. We were 1 minute away from a win, so the players we did have with us were clearly capable of winning.

5. These players were all performing well for their clubs before the Euros - Long, McCarthy, Coleman, Wilson, Clark, Pilkington, Hoolahan. He didn't bed them in and made excuses that they had no experience - yet he gives Clark his first competitive start away to Sweden. The lack of consistency is incredibly amusing and leaves him with no excuse for his Euros squad and starting 11. This also applies for our other group matches so far. Disgraceful

Clark was there due to being roughly the best available option he had left. If everyone was fully fit he likely wouldnt have started.

6. Liam Brady is an embarrassment to himself. So biased it's genuinely frustrating.

Biased, yes. Embarrassment, no. He spoke a lot of sense tonight, pre-match and post-match.

7. We can't qualify with this man in charge, tonight proved that. Tonight was a must win and was our easiest game remaining, excluding the minnows. Have no idea how we can come second now - extremely unlikely. I think he should leave and allow someone else to come in to be able to hit the ground running with the campaign for Euro 2016. I feel so sorry for our players.

Tonight proved nothing of the sort. We are unbeaten against our main rivals for the runners up spot. Unbeaten. We have every chance of finishing 2nd. We have a guaranteed 6 points with Faeroes and Kazaks at the Aviva and have shown we have the potential for wins over Austria and/or Sweden.

8. I remember the days when I loved Ireland. I remember travelling up to the Portugal and Holland games back in 2001 (or whenever it was) and how excited and how great it was. I used to love supporting my country, going to matches etc. Now its a chore, a completely depressing activity that doesn't excite me. I haven't been to a game since 2009, despite currently living withing walking distance of the Aviva. This man has ruined my national team - I'm sick and tired of him. Tonight hurts more because he gave me hope on Tuesday that he could change. He can't. Time's up. Trap out.

Dude you're 20/21 years old. Course you were excited going to watch Ireland when you were 8 or 9 against Holland. If it's a chore to support your country because they don't play a nice brand of football, you're just another fair-weather fan. I go to every game i can afford (financially). This man has got us to our first major tournament for a decade and in with a shout to get to the World Cup. Ruined out team my arse.

.

SirDelboy18

wonderfullife wrote: »

.

No point arguing with you as you obviously have your opinions which I literally couldn't disagree with more strongly.

All I can do at the moment is count down the days when he goes, as can most people, I've said my piece now.