Ireland Vs Austria - K/O 7:45PM - Sky Sports 2 & RTÉ 2

LuckyLloyd

ionadnapokot wrote: »

He is a highly respected professional operating in a very public domain.
Criticism and praise is part of the job and Trap is well accustomed to it.
Allot of Irish football supporters are not satisfied with the way the national team is performing and we are not going to sit idly by and just let it continue without voicing our opinion.
Its water of a ducks back to Trap anyway.
While my voice might not be heard, i refuse to pay allot of my money to the FAI (many, many reasons), to attend Internationals when this Manager (subsidising his wage) is in charge. It is the only effective weapon the supporters have. I know allot of supporters will disagree with my stance but I will just continue to support & spend my hard earned few bob supporting the league…And that is another argument for another day!

Well good for you, but the attendences for competitive home matches remain strong. As someone noted on here yesterday - we retain one of the strongest attendence rates for European sides in International football.

LuckyLloyd

eagle eye wrote: »

I've seen this where players start to sit deeper so often in football over the last four/five years. When you are at games you hear managers roaring at the players to push out and they don't often listen. In league football they probably are all on win bonuses, not sure what the situation is with the Irish team, but they end up wanting to hold onto what they have.

A whole stadium and a manager on the sideline were roaring at us to squeeze out but the players wouldn't / couldn't manage it. Trapp was clearly agitated on the sidelines the last few minutes.

leonidas83

Lets be honest about it, alot of the good work & play last night was in spite of Trap not because of him. Had he had his way I wonder how many of those that started last night would have done so if retirements/injuries didnt force his hand.

Would McCarthy have even started last night had Whelan not gotten injured in Stockhlom or Andrew been available.

Would McClean & Walters have started on the wings had Duff not retired & McGeady not been injured.

Would Coleman or Wilson have started had Richard Dunne been fit.(O'shea must likely would have been played at full back)

What about Forde if Given had not retired.

Would Hoolohan have even been in the squad if all those players hadnt' retired or received injuries.

I wouldnt have even been 100% on Long starting last night had Keane been fit.


The majority of the players that started last night & impressed would have never been given the opportunity had fate not forced Trappatoni's hand. The result in Sweden & the first half performance last night were down to the players.


Look at the team we played for the Kazakhstan game ffs
Westwood, O'Shea, St. Ledger, O'Dea, Ward, Whelan, McCarthy, McGeady, Cox, Walters, Keane.

This is a team he chose ahead of players like Coleman, Wilson, Long, McClean, Hoolohan. 5 players that have impressed immensely in the last two games. Not good enough

The interview with Trap was an insight into his mentality last night, 'we are no brazil, england'. Yes we ****ing know that but what kind of message is that sending out to the players. Jesus Christ I was no fan of Jack Charlton but you'd never have heard him speaking about us like that. Andrews on the Saturday night show a few weeks ago explained the embarrassment of the Germany match by saying all their players are playing regular Champions league football. Does he think for one second Swansea, Stoke, Wigan, Everton go into games against ManUtd, Chelsea, Arsenal, City thinking like that. Trap doesnt believe in us, he thinks himself we are an inferior footballing nation, how are we ever going to compete if the manager himself believes we are inferior to good teams. Its enough to make even the most timid of fans angry, the very one thing we should have is pride & the belief we can beat anyone on our day

roanoke

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Qualifying for a major championship as a fourth seed is an extremely current stat.

It was as a 3rd seed (in a group with the second lowest rated 2nd seed.)

ionadnapokot

leonidas83 wrote: »

The interview with Trap was an insight into his mentality last night, 'we are no brazil, england'. Yes we ****ing know that

Exactly. look what Greece achieved in 2004

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/03/29/greece-euro-2004-tactics/

LuckyLloyd

leonidas83 wrote: »

Lets be honest about it, alot of the good work & play last night was in spite of Trap not because of him.

Sweet, every good thing inspite of him every bad thing because of him.

roanoke wrote: »

It was as a 3rd seed (in a group with the second lowest rated 2nd seed.)

You're right, still a current achievement.

leonidas83

The best thing that ever happened to Trap concerning the Irish team is the diabolical appointment of Staunton before him.

The_Kew_Tour

The most disappointing thing is that for 150 minutes between Sweden and Austria we played the best back to back games we have played since Switzerland/France in 04.

I was angry/annoyed last night. More gutted this morning.

Very emotional.:pac:

noodler

How you could stand there and watch the last 20 minutes from the sideline as a manager and decide to:

a) Leave Sammon on
b) Take Long off
c) Not bring Wes on ever

Is beyond me, especially the first two.

SantryRed

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Such utter, utter bollocks and you know it.

How is it?

His decisions in the last 25 minutes of the game were ridiculous and it is completely his fault for that. He is the man who can make the changes and he didn't.

missingtime

SantryRed wrote: »

How is it?

His decisions in the last 25 minutes of the game were ridiculous and it is completely his fault for that. He is the man who can make the changes and he didn't.

There were a number of instances where Ireland wasted possession and their decision making was quite poor in that last 25 minutes. The free-kick towards the end springs to mind. Why they didn't play into the corner and try to waste time is beyond me.

I agree with the opinion that Trap should have taken off Salmon instead of Long and perhaps changed the formation to give us more men in the midfield but it wasn't all his fault.

eigrod

noodler wrote: »

How you could stand there and watch the last 20 minutes from the sideline as a manager and decide to:

a) Leave Sammon on
b) Take Long off
c) Not bring Wes on ever

Is beyond me, especially the first two.

The last one is the most puzzling in my opinion. He would have been ideal. Sammon spent the last 20 minutes playing in midfield (until Long was taken off). That just didn't make sense.

On 2 or 3 occasions late in the game McClean was out on the left screaming for the ball, there wasn't an Austrian player within 30 yards of him, yet nobody could find him, instead our defenders and central midfielders just kept kicking the ball up the other half of the pitch in the full knowledge it was coming straight back. The man that has the vision and composure to find the free men was sitting on the bench.

And that late free kick that Whelan took deep in their half was just ******* stupid.

bren2001

noodler wrote: »

How you could stand there and watch the last 20 minutes from the sideline as a manager and decide to:

a) Leave Sammon on
b) Take Long off
c) Not bring Wes on ever

Is beyond me, especially the first two.

Long was tired and Wes wasn't the right person to bring on. The only question I have was leaving Sammon on, either I would have done a straight swap for Doyle (purely to hold up the ball and win a free) or stuck Walters as a lone striker, brought Kelly on and pushed Wilson into the centre for a back 5.

noodler

bren2001 wrote: »

Long was tired and Wes wasn't the right person to bring on. The only question I have was leaving Sammon on, either I would have done a straight swap for Doyle (purely to hold up the ball and win a free) or stuck Walters as a lone striker, brought Kelly on and pushed Wilson into the centre for a back 5.

Trap said that.

He didn't look tired - certainly nowhere near as tired as Sammon.

Also, Long seemed very bemused when he was taken off.

Trap's judgement was very questionable there.

SantryRed

bren2001 wrote: »

Long was tired and Wes wasn't the right person to bring on. The only question I have was leaving Sammon on, either I would have done a straight swap for Doyle (purely to hold up the ball and win a free) or stuck Walters as a lone striker, brought Kelly on and pushed Wilson into the centre for a back 5.

I've seen it all now :rolleyes:

Liam O

Kelly on for Sammon, push Coleman up, take Long off if he was tired for Hoolahan or Doyle could have been better yes but the manager went another way and it very nearly yielded the result that was needed. We were unlucky, invited Austria on too much yes but Alaba is a top quality player and he punished Ireland. The tune would be very different in here if the team had held on I think. Opinions based on a stoppage time goal conceded might be a bit knee jerk imo.

SlickRic

if Trap takes credit for the 1st half performance, he has to take blame for the 2nd half.

Sammon knackered, Long brilliant, and a midfield being out-matched because our energy could not match up with being outnumbered in there anymore. he brings off Long, leaves on a bolloxed Sammon, brings on Green, and stays 442.

our field position stays exactly the same, and you may as well have left Long on.

not everyone can have it every which way.

it's not all Trap's fault, but last night was indicative of a lot of the stubbornness and odd decision making that rears its head all too often.

we could've held on, and it would've been more upbeat in here, but the same weird decisions would've still happened, the same "hold on for dear life for 25 minutes" tactics would've been criticised, as we'd still have given up the chances we gave up.

the pattern for the 2nd half was set from around the 65th minute, and Trap didn't change formation and tactics once, and he changed personnel once because he had to (Sledge on), and once to keep the formation as it was, even though we were giving up chances from not getting up the field.

we're not Brazil Trap, you're right. or Spain. or any top-tier nation. but we're better than you think we are.

SantryRed

Liam O wrote: »

Kelly on for Sammon, push Coleman up, take Long off if he was tired for Hoolahan or Doyle could have been better yes but the manager went another way and it very nearly yielded the result that was needed. We were unlucky, invited Austria on too much yes but Alaba is a top quality player and he punished Ireland. The tune would be very different in here if the team had held on I think. Opinions based on a stoppage time goal conceded might be a bit knee jerk imo.

Nope, I was fuming from 65 minutes on. It was back to the silly negative tactics where we had been lucky in the past with, A LOT of times.

Backstreet Moyes

If the last few games showed anything is how much a difference playing our best players makes. Probably our best four players last night and Friday were Long, McCarthy, Wilson and Coleman. All been available the last few seasons and only getting games now. If Trap chose the best players available we are a pretty decent team.

Also on last night Austria deserved a draw. We have got some very good luck under Trap and it ran out last night. How when your dominating at home you decide to camp in your own half with 35 minutes to go is beyond me. While also taking off Long who was brilliant on the counter makes the mind boggle. We invited Austria on and they got what they deserved. As people have said we created a lot of chances can't believe why when we were on top we camped in our own half. They were their for the taking and Trap refused to go for the knockout punch. I don't mind sitting deep with a few minutes to go but shutting up shop with 35 minutes to go when your well on top is just madness.

SlickRic

Trap just said in a presser that he feels people underestimated Austria.

this is even though he said before that they "aren't Germany".

Blatter

I love the way a lot of the Trap defenders acknowledge that he made mistakes but infer that they're no more or less mistakes than any other manager makes a lot of the time.

That isn't correct. Most mistakes managers make are not this basic and there is usually some decent logic as to how a mistake comes about.

But there is no logic or defending the fact that Trap took Long off, stuck Walters up top and continued with 4-4-2. How his defenders aren't really worried by such a retarded, basic error is beyond me. And it's not as if it was the first time he did it, there's a long list of retarded errors with little or no logic behind them when it comes to Trap.

Last night reminded me of the game in Moscow. The only difference being we were battered for 90 mins in that one and got away with it. It still didn't make Trap's decision to persist with 4-4-2 in that game any less retarded.

eigrod

SlickRic wrote: »

Trap just said in a presser that he feels people underestimated Austria.

this is even though he said before that they "aren't Germany".

They had 2 or 3 very good players, in an attacking sense. Their back 4 are extremely poor...Long destroyed them practically single handedly.

Rekop dog

fullstop wrote: »

Ah your customary dig at Clark. Like a broken record at this stage. You also said before the Sweden game that McClean shouldn't be anywhere near the team, still believe that?

I've been consistently proved right re Clark. His next mistake is always just around the corner, any who defends the sheer level of incompetency he regularly provides is crazy. Those type of howlers are barely acceptable on a once off basis not to mind his every other week contributions.

And I'd have Mcgeady starting ahead of McClean every day of the week.

SlickRic

Blatter wrote: »

Last night reminded me of the game in Moscow. The only difference being we were battered for 90 mins in that one and got away with it. It still didn't make Trap's decision to persist with 4-4-2 in that game any less retarded.

but he got the result, so it's ok.

the pattern of how the games go doesn't matter you see, as long as we keep nicking points, and edging past shít teams.

it's tiresome.

sReq | uTeK

Hi, I'll way in here.

To all the people defending Trap's sub, lets not talk about St Ledger for Clark that's a no brainer.

People are saying Green was the right choice as he's a defensive midfielder and bringing on an attacking midfielder in Wes would have been madness..................................I'm sorry but he ****ing put Green right wing and moved walters up top making it a 442. Would making it a 451 or a 4411 not have been a far better choice eliminating the massive gap from midfield and forward and also fresh legs.

His substitutions were BAFFLING.

They would have made some sense if they had been.

Green in for Wheelan, Wes for Sammon, put Green in front of the defenders and drop wes back into the Centre, leaving Long who obviously had more in the tank to chase around. Instead he does what he did and it's just ****ing horrible. 4141 giving protection to both back 4 and midfield.

He's an outdated dinosaur that thinks everything in the universe is linked by 442. it's just absolute ****ing madness.

I could think of about 5 different ways those subs could have been used and about 10 different formations that would have enabled us to hold out.

But this is where it gets to boiling point, we're HOLDING OUT against Austria, sure they played well on the night no-one can deny that but we LET-THEM-PLAY we showed what we are capable of when chasing a game or going for the jugular, we could have come out, brought Wes on at 60 for Sammon (Shouldn't be in the team but ran around as asked) and tried some ball retention instead we parked the ****ing bus against Austria at home for 45 mins when we had just showed how easily we could get at them for 30 mins before hand.

THE MIND ****ING BOGGLES. IT REALLY REALLY ****ING DOES.

fullstop

Rekop dog wrote: »

I've been consistently proved right re Clark. His next mistake is always just around the corner, any who defends the sheer level of incompetency he regularly provides is crazy. Those type of howlers are barely acceptable on a once off basis not to mind his every other week contributions.

And I'd have Mcgeady starting ahead of McClean every day of the week.

You're obsessed with him. Wilson got caught a couple of time not clearing the ball quickly enough last night but the blocks rebounded to Forde. McCarthy's terrible pass across the midfield led to the attack for the equaliser. Was that incompetence too? The lad made a mistake and cost us a goal, but was very solid over the 2 games apart from that one moment of madness, in his first two competitive starts for his country. Who would you have picked instead, Dunne?

So you'd have an injured McGeady playing instead of a fit McClean? Right, makes sense.

Professional Griefer

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Hi, I'll way in here.

To all the people defending Trap's sub, lets not talk about St Ledger for Clark that's a no brainer.

People are saying Green was the right choice as he's a defensive midfielder and bringing on an attacking midfielder in Wes would have been madness..................................I'm sorry but he ****ing put Green right wing and moved walters up top making it a 442. Would making it a 451 or a 4411 not have been a far better choice eliminating the massive gap from midfield and forward and also fresh legs.

His substitutions were BAFFLING.

They would have made some sense if they had been.

Green in for Wheelan, Wes for Sammon, put Green in front of the defenders and drop wes back into the Centre, leaving Long who obviously had more in the tank to chase around. Instead he does what he did and it's just ****ing horrible. 4141 giving protection to both back 4 and midfield.

He's an outdated dinosaur that thinks everything in the universe is linked by 442. it's just absolute ****ing madness.

I could think of about 5 different ways those subs could have been used and about 10 different formations that would have enabled us to hold out.

But this is where it gets to boiling point, we're HOLDING OUT against Austria, sure they played well on the night no-one can deny that but we LET-THEM-PLAY we showed what we are capable of when chasing a game or going for the jugular, we could have come out, brought Wes on at 60 for Sammon (Shouldn't be in the team but ran around as asked) and tried some ball retention instead we parked the ****ing bus against Austria at home for 45 mins when we had just showed how easily we could get at them for 30 mins before hand.

THE MIND ****ING BOGGLES. IT REALLY REALLY ****ING DOES.

Or even 4-1-4-1. Just have him sit behind the 2 cms. It was that sub that really annoyed me. Green isn't good enough, he shouldn't be in the squad, and he certainly shouldn't have gone to the Euros.

**** it though, its over now, nothing can be done, just need to concentrate on the rest of the games, hopefully Trap learned alot last night. We can still do it.

LuckyLloyd

fullstop wrote: »

You're obsessed with him. Wilson got caught a couple of time not clearing the ball quickly enough last night but the blocks rebounded to Forde. McCarthy's terrible pass across the midfield led to the attack for the equaliser. Was that incompetence too? The lad made a mistake and cost us a goal, but was very solid over the 2 games apart from that one moment of madness, in his first two competitive starts for his country. Who would you have picked instead, Dunne?

St. Ledger.

Clark might be a Premiership player now, but he won't be in three year's time. As for the above, it's absolutely vital that central defenders don't have moments of madness. When they are prone to it, they shouldn't be selected.

ionadnapokot

i was really impressed with Wilson over the past 2 games. Calm. Excellent positioning. Although right footed he makes playing at left back look easy. i was surprised at how slow he looked on one occasion when trying to cover back. I wonder was it his injury or does he lack pace?

LuckyLloyd

ionadnapokot wrote: »

i was really impressed with Wilson over the past 2 games. Calm. Excellent positioning. Although right footed he makes playing at left back look easy. i was surprised at how slow he looked on one occasion when trying to cover back. I wonder was it his injury or does he lack pace?

Wilson was great on Friday from what I could see on TV, but in the first half last night he lost a lot of headers which put us under pressure needlessly at times. He's still the best option in the position by far and I'm hopeful that he'll do a good job there for a while, but he has some flaws.

briany

I was just so sickened by that result I couldn't even hardly look at this thread 'til now. Lesson here, for the fans anyway, is - don't begin to believe in the first half of the last minute of injury time. Wait 'til the whistle and even then double check. Sickening. I'm reminded that you only need to watch Ireland defend a one goal lead for a sure fire to top up on your dose of stomach churning, torturous inevitability.

Hitchens

Seamus Darby started all this :P

fullstop

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

St. Ledger.

Clark might be a Premiership player now, but he won't be in three year's time. As for the above, it's absolutely vital that central defenders don't have moments of madness. When they are prone to it, they shouldn't be selected.

St. Ledger will never be a premiership player and never has been so moot point. He has made 10 appearances this season for Leicester City, warming the bench in the Championship isn't exactly great preparation for a WCQ, is it?

Obviously you don't want defenders having moments of madness but Dunne and O'Shea have had plenty over the years. It happens in every position but CB and keeper tend to get punished for it a lot more than any other position.

stooge

Professional Griefer wrote: »

Or even 4-1-4-1. Just have him sit behind the 2 cms. It was that sub that really annoyed me. Green isn't good enough, he shouldn't be in the squad, and he certainly shouldn't have gone to the Euros.

**** it though, its over now, nothing can be done, just need to concentrate on the rest of the games, hopefully Trap learned alot last night. We can still do it.

Lads, swearing doesnt make your points any more valid. For the last 20mins the players panicked. The free kick on Green at the end was the chance to kill the game off. Instead they boot the ball into the box and give it back. Any experienced players would have kept the ball in the corner. Thats not trap's fault, thats experience and common sense. Granted that I think Long could have stayed on and Sammon come off, but I dont hink Hoolahan was the answer to the midfield. the one mistake on Traps part was not to calm the lads down by bringing on the final sub in injury time.

El Inho

This whole debate is going to turn into this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhn5_gUcO5E

noodler

Liam O wrote: »

Kelly on for Sammon, push Coleman up, take Long off if he was tired for Hoolahan or Doyle could have been better yes but the manager went another way and it very nearly yielded the result that was needed. We were unlucky, invited Austria on too much yes but Alaba is a top quality player and he punished Ireland. The tune would be very different in here if the team had held on I think. Opinions based on a stoppage time goal conceded might be a bit knee jerk imo.

We were not unlucky imo.

Austria got what they deserved for their late dominance.

james123

Was anyone in the lower south stand when Austria scored the second goal and everyone went quiet, except for one guy who tore into Trap with oodles of abuse

...he said it all really !

eagle eye

fullstop wrote: »

St. Ledger will never be a premiership player and never has been so moot point. He has made 10 appearances this season for Leicester City, warming the bench in the Championship isn't exactly great preparation for a WCQ, is it?

Obviously you don't want defenders having moments of madness but Dunne and O'Shea have had plenty over the years. It happens in every position but CB and keeper tend to get punished for it a lot more than any other position.

St. Ledger could be a Premier league defender as early as next season as Leicester look likely to be in the playoffs. He was out injured for four months and has started the last two games for Leicester. He was starting for Leicester up until he got injured.

Your comments show your lack of knowledge about him so don't go bluffing about something you have no clue about.

The_Kew_Tour

Since Holland in 01(funny enough the last time they have lost WC qualifier) we have not beaten any top side of note and have beaten very few sides similar to us.

Slovakia in 07 is the last time we beat somebody of note in a group game.

We beat France in Paris in 09 (90 minutes), but we had to go for juggler there.

We have thrown away leads against Slovakia (twice), Russia, Switzerland, Bulgaria (twice) Italy, Israel, Czech Republic to name few.

Our mentality has to change. We panic so much in last 20 minutes of games and really need to develop a clinical mentality.

Draws are good results away from home, but you need to be winning 80% of your home matches to stand any chance of getting out of the group.

We blew it last night. Trap outdated 4-4-2 system is not working. When a manager is earning more then 1.5 million a year I expect results. Maybe not to top the group, but I expect Ireland to be challenging for playoff. As things stand we will fall short with games to spare.

Not good enough.

noodler

All I know is Sledger has been very solid for us over the years despite his Championship status.

briany

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Since Holland in 01(funny enough the last time they have lost WC qualifier) we have not beaten any top side of note and have beaten very few sides similar to us.

Slovakia in 07 is the last time we beat somebody of note in a group game.

We beat France in Paris in 09 (90 minutes), but we had to go for juggler there.

We have thrown away leads against Slovakia (twice), Russia, Switzerland, Bulgaria (twice) Italy, Israel, Czech Republic to name few.

Our mentality has to change. We panic so much in last 20 minutes of games and really need to develop a clinical mentality.

Draws are good results away from home, but you need to be winning 80% of your home matches to stand any chance of getting out of the group.

We blew it last night. Trap outdated 4-4-2 system is not working. When a manager is earning more then 1.5 million a year I expect results. Maybe not to top the group, but I expect Ireland to be challenging for playoff. As things stand we will fall short with games to spare.

Not good enough.

Unnecessarily throwing away perfectly good leads is an entrenched Irish tradition dating back to the time of the footballing forefathers of this country. I don't know of a system that will stop players from physically standing off the opposition when in possession, giving them room to play.

General Relativity

. Maybe not to top the group, but I expect Ireland to be challenging for playoff. As things stand we will fall short with games to spare.

Not good enough.[/Quote]

Made playoffs twice, qualified once, Currently joint second. Has met your expections.

Blatter

One good thing to come from last night for me. Got on the 20/1 around 20 seconds before Alaba scored :pac:

Imhof Tank

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Draws are good results away from home, but you need to be winning 80% of your home matches to stand any chance of getting out of the group.

What percentage of our home games did we win in the last 2 groups we got out of?

2010 - 40%
2012 - 60%

Renn

Yikes, would have wanted much more than 20/1 at that stage

briany

Imhof Tank wrote: »

What percentage of our home games did we win in the last 2 groups we got out of?

2010 - 40%
2012 - 60%

I would amend the 80% thing to say that it's required when the group rivals above and below you in the seeding are doing the business expected of them. Didn't happen in either of those campaigns.

fullstop

eagle eye wrote: »

St. Ledger could be a Premier league defender as early as next season as Leicester look likely to be in the playoffs. He was out injured for four months and has started the last two games for Leicester. He was starting for Leicester up until he got injured.

Your comments show your lack of knowledge about him so don't go bluffing about something you have no clue about.

Leicester won't be promoted IMO. Ah sure two matches under his belt, bound to be sharp so. I have nothing against St Ledger and he's been a very good performer for Ireland but part of LL's point was that Clark won't be a premiership defender in 3 years. He's more likely than SSL to be.

The_Kew_Tour

General Relativity wrote: »

. Maybe not to top the group, but I expect Ireland to be challenging for playoff. As things stand we will fall short with games to spare.

Not good enough.

Made playoffs twice, qualified once, Currently joint second. Has met your expections.[/QUOTE]

We are not joint 2nd. We are currently 4th in the group.

So no expectations are not been met at this present time.

The_Kew_Tour

Imhof Tank wrote: »

What percentage of our home games did we win in the last 2 groups we got out of?

2010 - 40%
2012 - 60%

This time we need 2 teams to implode unlike 1 in each of those groups.

Liam O

Titus Bramble, Rio Ferdinand, heck even Nemanja Vidic for his first few months. All players who were given a lot of flak for making mistakes in their career and turned out to be nowhere near as bad as the naysayers said. Clark was very good on Friday and when (imo) he matures after another year or 2 will be a fine defender imo.

Sure Jonny Evans' turnaround in the last couple of seasons should show that more than anything.