Ireland Vs Austria - K/O 7:45PM - Sky Sports 2 & RTÉ 2

Nalz

Renn wrote: »

And they had a free kick that went extremely close in the first 5 mins. And a couple of good chances in the second half with all that pressure. Definitely wasn't that much in it.

Lads are really doing this. Austria deserved the draw.

We nearly and should have drawn with Kazakhstan, hammered at home to Germany, hadn't a shot on target against Sweden, scraping a one goal lead vs the Faroes until they scored an o.g in the 73rd minute, and then last night.... we couldnt keep the ball after an hour.

Stats, away from home record etc, arguments with players etc... the players are to blame for some things, Trap imo is to blame for a lot too.

Kerrydude1981

Liam O wrote: »

Titus Bramble, Rio Ferdinand, heck even Nemanja Vidic for his first few months. All players who were given a lot of flak for making mistakes in their career and turned out to be nowhere near as bad as the naysayers said. Clark was very good on Friday and when (imo) he matures after another year or 2 will be a fine defender imo.

Sure Jonny Evans' turnaround in the last couple of seasons should show that more than anything.

I agree 100% with this

I remember Steve Staunton having a nightmare start to his Ireland career against Spain in the first game of the Italia 90 qualifying group,I think it might have been his second cap,by the time Italia 90 came he was a totally different player as he had learned from his mistakes from the Spain game and went on to be a great player for us,

Sure Clark made a mistake last night,but I thought he recovered well after that until he had to go off with the injury,he is a work in progress.

roanoke

There's a common notion that you need about 10 caps to get up to speed and become settled at international level. So I wouldn't write of Clark just yet. Add to this we aren't exactly blessed at CB anyway and I think it'd be best to stick with him.

However he's got to stop that fecking about at the back like he did for the first goal. He did it a couple of times vs Sweden too and was just lucky on that occasion to get away with it. Clearly Trap has told them it's ok to play for the first 20 mins or so but even so there comes a time when it's best to just leather the ball into the stands.

Nalz

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

Sure Clark made a mistake last night,but I thought he recovered well after that until he had to go off with the injury,he is a work in progress.

Hopefully, cas he learned nothing from the almost identical mistake he made against City when he let Tevez in last month.

SantryRed

Trilla wrote: »

Hopefully, cas he learned nothing from the almost identical mistake he made against City when he let Tevez in last month.

He was fouled that time.

Al Capwned

Purposely stayed away from commenting on here after game last night.

I just cannot understand the substitutions - for me, the obvious change after 65/70 minutes was to bring Sammon off for a midfielder and leave Long on the field - was our best player, and would have been more suited to what was required than Conor Sammon...

Bring on either Green to be destructive, or Hoolahan to be constructive, or 4-1-4-1 / 4-4-1-1 or whatever you wanna call it. Either way, leave Walters wide right, and Long up top.

It looked to me that Austria were getting a lot of time, but especially a lot of space on the ball in midfield as the game wore on, and the substitution (and subsequent reshuffle) that he eventually made was baffling. Even with the 11 on the field at the end, the following formation would have been more suitable to hold a lead.

Forde
Coleman - St.Ledger - O'Shea - Wilson
Green
Walters - McCarthy - Whelan - McGeady
Sammon

Sometimes changing only personnel is not the right idea, the formation also needs to change. Cannot understand it to be honest.

The_Kew_Tour

I would like to see us play a more 4-2-3-1 formation if im honest.

It would give us greater control in the middle of the pitch but also give our wingers a chance to make things happen.

LuckyLloyd

james123 wrote: »

Was anyone in the lower south stand when Austria scored the second goal and everyone went quiet, except for one guy who tore into Trap with oodles of abuse

...he said it all really !

He was also told to shut his ****ing mouth you might remember.

Renn

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

He was also told to shut his ****ing mouth you might remember.

Oh how I miss the atmosphere at a home Ireland match.

wonderfullife

SantryRed wrote: »

That game is completely on Trappatoni. Aside from Clark's error, we were 2-1 up at half time and we were beginning to really dominate. The 2nd half was too negative and his inability to change things is what was our downfall. There is no point in picking up away points in groups if we are going to do that at home.

Before the game, as fans we all wanted a win. After Clarks error, how many fans would have taken a point? I'd say most fair fans would have taken a point from the game at that point, thus keeping us in joint second place in the group.

The manager can (and should) be questioned over his substitutions (or lack of). But it can't be argued he set the side up negatively in the 2nd half. His key change was to bring Green on and retain 4-4-2, which despite being a mistake given tiredness levels is also an attempt at a positive change.

gnfnrhead wrote: »

But had it finished 2-1 you no doubt would be here telling us how amazing he is and how it was 100% down to him.

LL and others who are subjectively looking at this Ireland side, setup and results never come on here after a win saying it's all down to Trap. That's rubbish. A manager takes some credit and some criticism for his selections and, ultimately, for results but it's never a 100% thing either way.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

'Trapp is completely to blame'

He's to blame for the schoolboy error for the first? That Long's backheel wasn't a couple of inches to the left? That their keeper made an incredible save at 2 - 1? That the defenders didn't CLOSE THE ****ING GUY ON THE EDGE OF OUR BOX?

A manager is rarely if ever 'completely to blame' just as he is rarely if ever the sole architect of victory. I would have done things slightly differently the last 20 minutes - but that doesn't make him worthy of being completely blamed.

I mean, for **** sake, we were seconds away from the result after creating far more clear cut openings over the course of the game. Just don't know how some of ye keep a straight face. Up there with the 'oh well, the Stade de France performance was all to do with the players'.

+1 but i still maintain despite all that the key mistake we made was that free kick at the end of the game. Nearly all professional footballers should have the ability to run down a minute off the clock in a corner flag. Especially the likes of Walters with good upper body strength to shield the ball.

noodler wrote: »

How you could stand there and watch the last 20 minutes from the sideline as a manager and decide to:

a) Leave Sammon on
b) Take Long off
c) Not bring Wes on ever

Is beyond me, especially the first two.

a) Mistake
b) Arguable mistake
c) Arguable omission.

Sammon HAD to come off, he was dead on his legs. Long didn't look knackered. Whether bringing Wes on was a mistake is subjective, i'd have been happy with Green for Walters and Doyle for Sammon, with Green-Whelan-McCarthy sitting in front of the back 4.

SantryRed wrote: »

Nope, I was fuming from 65 minutes on. It was back to the silly negative tactics where we had been lucky in the past with, A LOT of times.

This is just it though, tactically wasn't negative. We SHOULD have went 4-5-1 with 2 holding midfielders, except the manager attempted a misguided switch to maintain 4-4-2 and Green on the right meant they were still getting between the lines in midfield far too easily.

Blatter wrote: »

I love the way a lot of the Trap defenders acknowledge that he made mistakes but infer that they're no more or less mistakes than any other manager makes a lot of the time.

That isn't correct. Most mistakes managers make are not this basic and there is usually some decent logic as to how a mistake comes about.

But there is no logic or defending the fact that Trap took Long off, stuck Walters up top and continued with 4-4-2. How his defenders aren't really worried by such a retarded, basic error is beyond me. And it's not as if it was the first time he did it, there's a long list of retarded errors with little or no logic behind them when it comes to Trap.

Last night reminded me of the game in Moscow. The only difference being we were battered for 90 mins in that one and got away with it. It still didn't make Trap's decision to persist with 4-4-2 in that game any less retarded.

The only thing this has in common with Moscow is both games were a draw. Nothing else. We scored twice here, and it could have ended up 4-4 on chances created. Moscow could have ended up 27-0.

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Hi, I'll way in here.

To all the people defending Trap's sub, lets not talk about St Ledger for Clark that's a no brainer.

People are saying Green was the right choice as he's a defensive midfielder and bringing on an attacking midfielder in Wes would have been madness..................................I'm sorry but he ****ing put Green right wing and moved walters up top making it a 442. Would making it a 451 or a 4411 not have been a far better choice eliminating the massive gap from midfield and forward and also fresh legs.

His substitutions were BAFFLING.

They would have made some sense if they had been.

Green in for Wheelan, Wes for Sammon, put Green in front of the defenders and drop wes back into the Centre, leaving Long who obviously had more in the tank to chase around. Instead he does what he did and it's just ****ing horrible. 4141 giving protection to both back 4 and midfield.

He's an outdated dinosaur that thinks everything in the universe is linked by 442. it's just absolute ****ing madness.

I could think of about 5 different ways those subs could have been used and about 10 different formations that would have enabled us to hold out.

But this is where it gets to boiling point, we're HOLDING OUT against Austria, sure they played well on the night no-one can deny that but we LET-THEM-PLAY we showed what we are capable of when chasing a game or going for the jugular, we could have come out, brought Wes on at 60 for Sammon (Shouldn't be in the team but ran around as asked) and tried some ball retention instead we parked the ****ing bus against Austria at home for 45 mins when we had just showed how easily we could get at them for 30 mins before hand.

THE MIND ****ING BOGGLES. IT REALLY REALLY ****ING DOES.

IMO with the players we had on the field and even the ones people want on like Hoolahan, we can only ever play a high tempo brand of football to be successful. That will only work for so long at international level before the players are knackered. The European sides play a lower tempo technically better brand of football to the British way of playing. Usually that means more possession, less energy expended and better use of the ball.

Last night showed that very clearly.

We had Wales v Croatia: 1-0 to Wales at half time, high tempo game, they lose 2-1.

Montenegro v England: 1-0 to England half time, Montenegro destroyed them in the 2nd half.

Ireland v Austria: Austria clearly better side 2nd half.

Northern Ireland v Israel: 0-0 half time, Israel well on top 2nd half.


The blood, guts and thunder of the British style can only work for so long physically. Ignore the rankings, Austria and Montenegro have shown they are technically better sides to Ireland and England. They keep the ball, they use the ball.

The home sides just don't have the players to do that. We have the players to do it slightly better than we do now but even 1 or 2 changes won't turn us into a possession team.

Nalz

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

He was also told to shut his ****ing mouth you might remember.

Was that you? I was sitting two seats from that guy. Was unreal how everyone else so quiet and he just kept going.

The_Kew_Tour

The man roaring wasn't a guy with a Pony Tail by any chance?

Nalz

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

The man roaring wasn't a guy with a Pony Tail by any chance?

Nah don't think so... he was having the craic the whole game didn't seem to be OTT at all and then just lost it at the final whistle.

The dude that turned around 5 rows down to tell him to shut the fúck up was rubbing the back of his head at rapid pace (sheer sign of frustration and anger). I'd say if he was able and was close by he would have smacked him. Brought a smile to me and my mates later on that evening, but not at the time

LuckyLloyd

Trilla wrote: »

Was that you? I was sitting two seats from that guy. Was unreal how everyone else so quiet and he just kept going.

Yes.

The_Kew_Tour

Trilla wrote: »

Nah don't think so... he was having the craic the whole game didn't seem to be OTT at all and then just lost it at the final whistle.

The dude that turned around 5 rows down to tell him to shut the fúck up was rubbing the back of his head at rapid pace (sheer sign of frustration and anger). I'd say if he was able and was close by he would have smacked him. Brought a smile to me and my mates later on that evening, but not at the time

The only reason I mentioned this guy cause seen him few times and he goes nuts.

One Minute he is roaring at fans cause they are booing the team at half time, next thing is is having a pop a the manager for not winning.

Bohs fan too I think.

aindriu80

Trap should have brought on Hoolahan on around the 60th minute. By then things were slipping out of our hands. We can defend for a bit but not all of the second half. You can't defend a 1 goal cushion. We needed the third goal.

Maybe he should have brought Green on in the last 10 minutes. We should have kept the ball on the deck, keep possession and try for another goal. I would not have take Long off. Long ball is effective but not for the full 90 minutes.

We can beat the likes of Austria but we don't. I think we really have to look at the fundamentals as to WHY we don't beat equal or lesser teams more often. For me that has to go back to the league. The sums don't add up.

missingtime

Trilla wrote: »

Nah don't think so... he was having the craic the whole game didn't seem to be OTT at all and then just lost it at the final whistle.

The dude that turned around 5 rows down to tell him to shut the fúck up was rubbing the back of his head at rapid pace (sheer sign of frustration and anger). I'd say if he was able and was close by he would have smacked him. Brought a smile to me and my mates later on that evening, but not at the time

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Yes.

Your neck must be ruined from all the Liverpool matches Lloyd

zuutroy

I just rewatched the last 20 minutes there to try and get a better handle on what went wrong. People who are saying we dropped off are just incorrect, I don't know how that opinion gained traction. I said it last night that I was surprised and encouraged that we were pressing so high at that stage of the game and having watched it again, we had 3-4 in the Austrian half any time they were trying to play out from the back, putting good pressure on despite the fact that Sammon was gassed.
There was a passage at 76 minutes that really summed things up where Wilson took back-to-back throws and tried to hoof them up the field into traffic instead of throwing it backwards and retaining possession. Coleman and Walters had at least 5 instances of completely aimless hoofs down the right when there was a possibility of retaining the ball and at one point McCarthy knowingly and willingly kicked the ball into open country down the right as if it was a rugby match.
We gave up possession way too cheaply in midfield instead of having some composure. Walters and McCarthy in particular were guilty of this in the last 7-8 minutes and this is where playing 4-1-4-1 or 4-5-1 or even having someone with a bit of vision like Wes H. would have helped us out.
The most baffling thing of all though is when we won the free just as the clock ticked over 90 to the right of their box. Not bringing on a sub there is just beyond comprehension. You have a free pass to waste one minute of the additional 3 as well as the psychological blow to the Austrians who have to watch their valuable seconds tick away. Then, when they take the free they don't put it up their jumper in the corner? Another baffling move. I think it was Whelan and Walters that were involved. These guys play for Stoke. Surely to hell they know how to kill off a game. Walk it to the flag and kick it off a defender for a throw or a corner. Another 30 seconds wasted and the next time Austria get the ball the game is over.

LuckyLloyd

missingtime wrote: »

Your neck must be ruined from all the Liverpool matches Lloyd

Ah, last night was heartbreaking tbh.

Jarrod

We can still qualify, obviously, but I don't think we will. We are not joint second in the group as many seem to think, we're fourth. Even if we were second right now, we wouldn't be in a play off position as we'd be the worst ranked second placed team. Both Austria and Sweden were there for the taking and we didn't do enough, I don't see that changing come September as much as I hope it does.

As for Trap, I constantly defended him until the Germany game. I think it's something of a moot argument over whether I want him to stay in the job or not because he's going to be there until the end of this campaign and we all know it. However that doesn't mean I won't question his decisions.

Conor Sammon never was, is not now and never will be good enough to play for Ireland. I couldn't believe it when he got called up for the Poland game but to start him in a WCQ is madness. Trap shouldn't have started him and when he was obviously out of gas at 60/65 minutes he should have been taken off. I also think it's very poor form that a professional footballer, who has played only a few minutes in the last week-10 days, could be so obviously struggling after that long but that's an argument for another day.

The bottom line is we could have put ourselves in the driving seat for second place both on Friday and last night. We didn't take those opportunities and now it's an up hill battle and one that could very conceivably result in second place in our group not making it into the playoffs. We finished the last WCQ campaign on 18 points and were the lowest ranked 2nd place team to make the playoffs. 18 points this time is optimistic and even then, it might not be enough.

roanoke

Jarrod wrote: »

We can still qualify, obviously, but I don't think we will. We are not joint second in the group as many seem to think, we're fourth. Even if we were second right now, we wouldn't be in a play off position as we'd be the worst ranked second placed team. Both Austria and Sweden were there for the taking and we didn't do enough, I don't see that changing come September as much as I hope it does.

This is a good point. People who are hoping that we'll sneak second by virtue of both a Swede and Austrian collapse have neglected that the lowest 2nd place team is automatically eliminated this time round.

Even if we sneak 2nd in all liklihood we'll finish as the worst 2nd place team by virtue of our inability to actually beat anyone. I'd estimate we're at best looking at w3-d4-l1 = 13pts if we finish second. I'm not sure even that'll be enough.

The onus is really on Ireland to win a lot of their remaining games rather than just hoping the other results go our way like it did for WC10 and EC12. I think this will be our primary downfall this time.

noodler

We realistically need consecutive wins:

(H) Sweden
(A) Austria

God I hope we can but I doubt it.

secman

And I'd have Mcgeady starting ahead of McClean every day of the week.[/QUOTE]


God no, McClean had 2 decent games, can shoot and can get good crosses in, McGeady can't shoot, not the best at crossing, generally runs in circles. He would struggle to get in to a PL side. Maybe a champioship player at best.

Secman

klose

God it sucks looking at the table now when we very well could have had 6 points over the games and certainly should have had 4 yet here we are with only 2

wonderfullife

Jarrod wrote: »

We can still qualify, obviously, but I don't think we will. We are not joint second in the group as many seem to think, we're fourth. Even if we were second right now, we wouldn't be in a play off position as we'd be the worst ranked second placed team. Both Austria and Sweden were there for the taking and we didn't do enough, I don't see that changing come September as much as I hope it does.

As for Trap, I constantly defended him until the Germany game. I think it's something of a moot argument over whether I want him to stay in the job or not because he's going to be there until the end of this campaign and we all know it. However that doesn't mean I won't question his decisions.

Conor Sammon never was, is not now and never will be good enough to play for Ireland. I couldn't believe it when he got called up for the Poland game but to start him in a WCQ is madness. Trap shouldn't have started him and when he was obviously out of gas at 60/65 minutes he should have been taken off. I also think it's very poor form that a professional footballer, who has played only a few minutes in the last week-10 days, could be so obviously struggling after that long but that's an argument for another day.

The bottom line is we could have put ourselves in the driving seat for second place both on Friday and last night. We didn't take those opportunities and now it's an up hill battle and one that could very conceivably result in second place in our group not making it into the playoffs. We finished the last WCQ campaign on 18 points and were the lowest ranked 2nd place team to make the playoffs. 18 points this time is optimistic and even then, it might not be enough.

The bolded bit is bang out of order. He probably covered close to 11,000 metres in the game. That's purely on the running, closing and chasing side of things - then you have tackling, jumping for balls etc.

Any professional footballer would be in bits after that shift. Even a lot of middle distance professional athletes would be sapped for energy - and they have a lot less height and weight traditionally than a footballer like Sammon. 6'2, 12 stone and doing a collossal amount of work.

IMO Austria are in a false position in the group on the basis they have dropped points against a supposed minnow in Astana. Even allowing for their draw last night, they are still behind the curve.

Even Sweden should consider themselves roughly on par for the curve, a point in Germany followed by 2 points dropped at home to us, that's 2 points from games they would reasonably have anticipated a minimum of 3 points against.

As for us, we expected to lose to Germany, we got an away point in Sweden and one at home to Austria so i suppose we could say we are probably 1 point behind the curve having expected/hoped for 3 points.

It's all to play for, the next round of fixtures is kind to us. An easy (and hopefully comprehensive) win against the Faeroes, boost our goal difference and whatever happens in Vienna, one of our rivals will fall behind us.

The_Kew_Tour

Considering that we now have situation where we could be worst place 2nd team, 6 points against Sweden&Austria is a must.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is away with the fairies.

wonderfullife

roanoke wrote: »

This is a good point. People who are hoping that we'll sneak second by virtue of both a Swede and Austrian collapse have neglected that the lowest 2nd place team is automatically eliminated this time round.

Even if we sneak 2nd in all liklihood we'll finish as the worst 2nd place team by virtue of our inability to actually beat anyone. I'd estimate we're at best looking at w3-d4-l1 = 13pts if we finish second. I'm not sure even that'll be enough.

The onus is really on Ireland to win a lot of their remaining games rather than just hoping the other results go our way like it did for WC10 and EC12. I think this will be our primary downfall this time.

The bolded bit is a nonsense. It's 10 games not 8 games for a start. We have Faeroes at home and Kazaks at home. We have beaten them both away. Even the most pessimistic fans will acknowledge that is 4 wins right off the bat. We already have 2 draws.

That's 14 points of a foundation, and we have to try get points from Sweden (H), Austria (A), Germany (A).

If we can get 5 points over those 3 games we definitely go through in 2nd. 4 points and we have a chance. 3 points or less and we're out.

LuckyLloyd

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Considering that we now have situation where we could be worst place 2nd team, 6 points against Sweden&Austria is a must.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is away with the fairies.

Beat Faroes
Beat Sweden
Beat Austria
Beat Kazakstan

Do all that somehow and I'd be awfully surprised if we don't sneak a playoff spot. In any case, we'll be live when the September games are played.

Backstreet Moyes

secman wrote: »

And I'd have Mcgeady starting ahead of McClean every day of the week.

God no, McClean had 2 decent games, can shoot and can get good crosses in, McGeady can't shoot, not the best at crossing, generally runs in circles. He would struggle to get in to a PL side. Maybe a champioship player at best.

Secman[/QUOTE]

McGeady is a far better winger than McClean and Walters and should start when he is back fit.

The_Kew_Tour

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Beat Faroes
Beat Sweden
Beat Austria
Beat Kazakstan

Do all that somehow and I'd be awfully surprised if we don't sneak a playoff spot. In any case, we'll be live when the September games are played.

That will do but 4 points against Sweden and Austria won be enough now unless we get result in Germany.(which is not going to be pretty)

andyman

secman wrote: »

And I'd have Mcgeady starting ahead of McClean every day of the week.

God no, McClean had 2 decent games, can shoot and can get good crosses in, McGeady can't shoot, not the best at crossing, generally runs in circles. He would struggle to get in to a PL side. Maybe a champioship player at best.

Secman[/QUOTE]

What an absolute disgrace of a post this is. McGeady a Championship player at best and McClean better than him? Don't talk absolute tripe.

Jesus Christ, I'm furious reading this post that some people can be this narrow-minded

T-K-O

Unfollow. This is more depressing than the result

wonderfullife

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Considering that we now have situation where we could be worst place 2nd team, 6 points against Sweden&Austria is a must.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is away with the fairies.

Where are people getting this from????

Have you looked through the groups and fixtures?

Group E has 4 teams competing for top spot with all of them taking points off each other. It's long odds against that TWO of those teams equal or surpass 18 points. Switzerland, Albania, Iceland, Norway in that group. No downright whipping boys like the Faeroes in that group.

Group B the favourites for the runner up spot are the Czechs. They have 5 games played and 8 points. They have to play Italy TWICE still and Bulgaria once. I don't see an easy 10 points from those fixtures. Bulgaria have played 6 games and have 10 points already, they still have Italy and the Czechs to play. I don't see an easy 8 points there.

Group D and Group G both have cases to be made for finishing worse than the 2nd place side in our group.

People are just making sweeping statements and making massive assumptions without giving it any thought whatsoever.

I'd give you long odds that the runner up in our group is the worst 2nd place team.

The_Kew_Tour

wonderfullife wrote: »

Where are people getting this from????

Have you looked through the groups and fixtures?

Group E has 4 teams competing for top spot with all of them taking points off each other. It's long odds against that TWO of those teams equal or surpass 18 points. Switzerland, Albania, Iceland, Norway in that group. No downright whipping boys like the Faeroes in that group.

Group B the favourites for the runner up spot are the Czechs. They have 5 games played and 8 points. They have to play Italy TWICE still and Bulgaria once. I don't see an easy 10 points from those fixtures. Bulgaria have played 6 games and have 10 points already, they still have Italy and the Czechs to play. I don't see an easy 8 points there.

Group D and Group G both have cases to be made for finishing worse than the 2nd place side in our group.

People are just making sweeping statements and making massive assumptions without giving it any thought whatsoever.

I'd give you long odds that the runner up in our group is the worst 2nd place team.

Again we are hoping rather then making sure we do it ourself.

As things stand we are in worst group for 2nd placed teams.

We need to get 3 points in 4 games now.

We just got in last time and we lost 0 games.

noodler

wonderfullife wrote: »

Where are people getting this from????

Have you looked through the groups and fixtures?

Group E has 4 teams competing for top spot with all of them taking points off each other. It's long odds against that TWO of those teams equal or surpass 18 points. Switzerland, Albania, Iceland, Norway in that group. No downright whipping boys like the Faeroes in that group.

Group B the favourites for the runner up spot are the Czechs. They have 5 games played and 8 points. They have to play Italy TWICE still and Bulgaria once. I don't see an easy 10 points from those fixtures. Bulgaria have played 6 games and have 10 points already, they still have Italy and the Czechs to play. I don't see an easy 8 points there.

Group D and Group G both have cases to be made for finishing worse than the 2nd place side in our group.

People are just making sweeping statements and making massive assumptions without giving it any thought whatsoever.

I'd give you long odds that the runner up in our group is the worst 2nd place team.

How will it look once the bottom team's results in those groups is taken out of the equation for the purposes of calculating the best runners-up?

Jarrod

wonderfullife wrote: »

Where are people getting this from????

Have you looked through the groups and fixtures?

Group E has 4 teams competing for top spot with all of them taking points off each other. It's long odds against that TWO of those teams equal or surpass 18 points. Switzerland, Albania, Iceland, Norway in that group. No downright whipping boys like the Faeroes in that group.

Group B the favourites for the runner up spot are the Czechs. They have 5 games played and 8 points. They have to play Italy TWICE still and Bulgaria once. I don't see an easy 10 points from those fixtures. Bulgaria have played 6 games and have 10 points already, they still have Italy and the Czechs to play. I don't see an easy 8 points there.

Group D and Group G both have cases to be made for finishing worse than the 2nd place side in our group.

People are just making sweeping statements and making massive assumptions without giving it any thought whatsoever.

I'd give you long odds that the runner up in our group is the worst 2nd place team.

People are getting this from the facts in front of us. You don't count results against the 6th place team when ranking the 2nd placed teams. As you point out in Group B, for example, Czech are favourite for second. As things stand, if we were both second in our respective groups, they'd rank ahead of us in the '2nd placed teams table'.

Your point about Group E is invalid as the lack of 'whipping boys' is negated by my original point about 6th place. As for D and G, as thing stand, they're 2nd placed teams are 3 and 5 points ahead of us, albeit we have a game in hand, but they've vastly superior goal differences.

All of this, of course, counts for nothing if we don't finish second, which no matter how it's spun, doesn't look likely.

roanoke

wonderfullife wrote: »

The bolded bit is a nonsense. It's 10 games not 8 games for a start. We have Faeroes at home and Kazaks at home. We have beaten them both away. Even the most pessimistic fans will acknowledge that is 4 wins right off the bat. We already have 2 draws.

That's 14 points of a foundation, and we have to try get points from Sweden (H), Austria (A), Germany (A).

If we can get 5 points over those 3 games we definitely go through in 2nd. 4 points and we have a chance. 3 points or less and we're out.

Eh, I was referring to the 8 game mini-league play-off table for second-place teams (you know, the subject for which my post pretty much revolved around).

However, thank you for your irrelevant contribution on the matter nonetheless. A post bolding my contributions and calling them "nonsense" is always just as welcome as one seeking clarification.

wonderfullife

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Again we are hoping rather then making sure we do it ourself.

As things stand we are in worst group for 2nd placed teams.

We need to get 3 points in 4 games now.

We just got in last time and we lost 0 games.

You're taking a seriously myopic and blinded view of all this.

We have at least 2 other groups who haven't a snowballs chance in hell of surpassing the 2nd placed team in our group.

Not to mention your statement is misleading, given THREE other groups with better 2nd placed sides have played 6 games and have 11 points, by the time of the Faroes game we will have played 6 games and have 11 points.

It's like talking to the wall. We don't NEED 4 more wins whatsoever, there are plenty of realistic sequences of results that will see 3 wins and a draw see us there.

To guarantee our progression, sure we need 4 wins. But simple maths dictates neither Austria or Sweden can play each other twice and not drop points. And whichever of them drops the more we just need to better that result in the fixture against them.

GLaDOS

Ranking for 2nd place teams is here, Austria come in at 2nd last.

Jarrod

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Ranking for 2nd place teams is here, Austria come in at 2nd last.

Just to clarify, we'd be last on goal difference, if we were second in our group.

Jarrod

wonderfullife wrote: »

Not to mention your statement is misleading, given THREE other groups with better 2nd placed sides have played 6 games and have 11 points, by the time of the Faroes game we will have played 6 games and have 11 points.

In terms of the ranking of 2nd placed teams, the Faroes result is irrelevant. Unless they finish ahead of the Kazakhs, which I would see as unlikely.

aindriu80

A draw against Germany even might be feasible but to win 2 games against Austria and Sweden ? Maybe we can beat one of them but we simply don't have the set up/mentality to produce two wins.

The_Kew_Tour

wonderfullife wrote: »

You're taking a seriously myopic and blinded view of all this.

We have at least 2 other groups who haven't a snowballs chance in hell of surpassing the 2nd placed team in our group.

Not to mention your statement is misleading, given THREE other groups with better 2nd placed sides have played 6 games and have 11 points, by the time of the Faroes game we will have played 6 games and have 11 points.

It's like talking to the wall. We don't NEED 4 more wins whatsoever, there are plenty of realistic sequences of results that will see 3 wins and a draw see us there.

To guarantee our progression, sure we need 4 wins. But simple maths dictates neither Austria or Sweden can play each other twice and not drop points. And whichever of them drops the more we just need to better that result in the fixture against them.

The reality as things stand is that we would be last of second placed teams as things stand.

We have to go to Germany and Austria and play Sweden at home. Next 5 games are tougher then previous 5 as the Faroe and kazakhstan games should be 12 points.

Hoping that other teams in other groups means we ain't good enough in first place and should raise more questions then answers.

You are proving my point more and more.

Banjaxed82

Stats in Trap campaigns so far would indicate that we won't beat Sweden at home. A draw at best. I could see us beating Austria if we had them at home next time out (I know), but with an away fixture, I can only see a draw (at best). I can't see anything from Germany game. We might sneak a win against Kazaks.

Unless there's a Slovakia like implosion by Sweden/Austria, I just can't see where the points are going to come from to qualify for Rio.

Rekop dog

Worth noting that the Austria lineup last night had 2 lads who were/are competing in the Champions League this season, one of which is still in the competition and the other was knocked out in the last 16, another 5 lads who were in the Europa with various teams, and one who should have been in the Europa but Besiktas have a Euro financial ban.

How many of our lads last night are playing at European level or even close, especially at Champions league level? Coleman would be up to it imo but the list is pretty short compared to what it was a few years back. Keep on saying it but it'll take till after the managers departure until people really realise the weakness of this squad and how we've been punching above our weight competing in these groups.

The_B_Man

Lads, tried reading this thread but couldn't get through most of it.

There was a point made about Trap taking off Long. I kinda agreed with this move. It was precautionary. Long was being his usual self and letting his temper dictate his game. He got a tough challenge, then went for ur man after and got booked. He was only one more tough challenge away from being sent off.

That's why I think Trap took him off.

EdenHazard

Rekop dog wrote: »

Worth noting that the Austria lineup last night had 2 lads who were/are competing in the Champions League this season, one of which is still in the competition and the other was knocked out in the last 16, another 5 lads who were in the Europa with various teams, and one who should have been in the Europa but Besiktas have a Euro financial ban.

How many of our lads last night are playing at European level or even close, especially at Champions league level? Coleman would be up to it imo but the list is pretty short compared to what it was a few years back. Keep on saying it but it'll take till after the managers departure until people really realise the weakness of this squad and how we've been punching above our weight competing in these groups.

Ridiculous, we are not 'competing above our weight' at all. Why are people so adamant to push this? Its just not true. We have performed to our ability under Trap, nothing more, nothing less. Our last group we were expected to finish second, the 2010 wc group we would have been expected to finish second. In this group we would be expected to finish third, competing for second(I'm not saying we aren't btw, I think Trap should go but not based on where we are in the group)

Not playing last night but McGeady was in Europa(part of the squad). If Stoke qualified for Europa(realistic) we'd have wilson, whelan, walters all in 1 Europa team so using Austria's Europa league players doesn't say a lot especially when we had a team of Irish people in Europa 2 years ago so being in the Europa is not a measure of how much better another team is. I'm not sure If some of our players moved abroad(outside of England) in our case we would have more players playing in these competitions.

flas

Rekop dog wrote: »

Worth noting that the Austria lineup last night had 2 lads who were/are competing in the Champions League this season, one of which is still in the competition and the other was knocked out in the last 16, another 5 lads who were in the Europa with various teams, and one who should have been in the Europa but Besiktas have a Euro financial ban.

How many of our lads last night are playing at European level or even close, especially at Champions league level? Coleman would be up to it imo but the list is pretty short compared to what it was a few years back. Keep on saying it but it'll take till after the managers departure until people really realise the weakness of this squad and how we've been punching above our weight competing in these groups.

Just wondering do you thinkwales or scotland are well ahead of us in terms of the squad they have? Because they both have players who were playing champions league football this year and I think we would beat both of them handy...

Corholio

Rekop dog wrote: »

Worth noting that the Austria lineup last night had 2 lads who were/are competing in the Champions League this season, one of which is still in the competition and the other was knocked out in the last 16, another 5 lads who were in the Europa with various teams, and one who should have been in the Europa but Besiktas have a Euro financial ban.

How many of our lads last night are playing at European level or even close, especially at Champions league level? Coleman would be up to it imo but the list is pretty short compared to what it was a few years back. Keep on saying it but it'll take till after the managers departure until people really realise the weakness of this squad and how we've been punching above our weight competing in these groups.

Thats all well and good, but you have to take a match as it actually panned out. We were 2-1 up into injury time, with Austria not doing a whole lot until about the last 10 minutes. Of all the things Trap should be getting right is defensive substitutions, but got them utterly wrong last night and put the team under even more pressure. Comparing Champions League isn't always a fair comparison, because there's a lot of average countries who have teams qualify for the Champions League, just playing in the Champions League isn't necessarily a sign of elite.

LuckyLloyd

EdenHazard wrote: »

Ridiculous, we are not 'competing above our weight' at all. Why are people so adamant to push this? Its just not true. We have performed to our ability under Trap, nothing more, nothing less. Our last group we were expected to finish second, the 2010 wc group we would have been expected to finish second. In this group we would be expected to finish third, competing for second(I'm not saying we aren't btw, I think Trap should go but not based on where we are in the group)

Not playing last night but McGeady was in Europa(part of the squad). If Stoke qualified for Europa(realistic) we'd have wilson, whelan, walters all in 1 Europa team so using Austria's Europa league players doesn't say much especially when we had a team of Irish people in Europa 2 years ago so being in the Europa is not a measure of how much better another team is. I'm not sure If some of our players moved abroad(outside of England) in our case we would have players playing in these competitions.

The Champions League is fair enough but

'If Stoke qualified for the Europa we'd have players X and Y playing Europa so that doesn't say much for the Austrian players playing for Europa League sides'.

What an amazing line of reasoning.