Ireland Vs Austria - K/O 7:45PM - Sky Sports 2 & RTÉ 2

LuckyLloyd · 28-03-2013 12:24pm

Essien wrote: »

But when the opportunity is clearly there (IMO and has been argued at length over a few threads so lets not go there), why not go for it? Why not try to change?

We want progression right? So why do you and others keep saying "How can you expect X when we've never done X in the past"?

Again, when taking the Austria game in isolation, those expectations weren't unreasonable.

But that's the thing, not everyone agrees that a win was clearly there on Friday or a comfortable stroll was cleary there on Tuesday. I watched the Sweden game in full and attended Tuesday's fixture. For me, we were worth four points but not a whole lot more! We played really well on Friday and were well set up but let's be honest - we struggled to create clear goalscoring opportunities. On Tuesday, we came close to a third in the first 20 minutes of the second half but only had one ten minute spell at the end of the first half where we were totally on top.

It seems that people think a couple of selection difference or tactical changes would definitely have given us a clear six points. I genuinely don't see it and it just doesn't fit with the last decade of Irish football and our relative ability as a footballing nation.

Essien · 28-03-2013 12:36pm

Well that just brings us right back to the beginning so I'll have to leave it at that.

Augmerson · 28-03-2013 12:49pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

'Trapp is a dinosaur'
Trapp hasn't done anything worthwile since the 80's'
'He's senile'
'He hasn't a clue'
'Still needs a translator'
'Too old'

etc, etc. Let's not pretend that criticism has been respectful and solely focussed on tactical decision making.

LuckyLloyd wrote:

The team and manager needs to be roared on in September and anyone unwilling to do that can go **** themselves, irrelevant.

Tell us, do you have a good view of all around you on that horse your on? A page ago you are telling people critical of Trap to go **** themselves.

LuckyLloyd · 28-03-2013 1:01pm

Augmerson wrote: »

Tell us, do you have a good view of all around you on that horse your on? A page ago you are telling people critical of Trap to go **** themselves.

Yeah, people who have posted on here saying 'oh I won't go to games while he's manager'; 'it would be better for Irish football if we lost the next game'; 'I can't get behind the team these days'; 'it's great Robbie is injured'; etc, can do one. That's not a high horse opinion - that's a very natural instinct of a football fan I'd have thought.

Time for people to face reality: Trapp will be the manager through the end of our World Cup 2014 campaign whether it ends with our group games; an unlikely playoff; or an amazing tournament appearance. This is your team, this is your manager. If all of this is affecting your support for the team (and it definitely is for some) it's time to reassess imo.

LuckyLloyd · 28-03-2013 1:02pm

Essien wrote: »

Well that just brings us right back to the beginning so I'll have to leave it at that.

We can always agree to disagree!

leonidas83 · 28-03-2013 1:05pm

Augmerson wrote: »

Tell us, do you have a good view of all around you on that horse your on? A page ago you are telling people critical of Trap to go **** themselves.

Its always the same, some people will defend people/mgr.'s/parties to the last ignoring all the obvious signs/warnings. It was the same when Fianna Fail were in power, you always had guys defending them telling them they did alot of good for the country even though they economically ruined us.

Just like now with Trap, because he was a successful manager 20+ years ago they think he can do no wrong & its all down to the players. They dont seem to realise the game has moved on alot since the early 90's, that we were made to look inferior at home by an average Austrian side who are ranked 80th in the world. That the style of football is embarrassing & really shows what Trap thinks of our footballing talent.

The_Kew_Tour · 28-03-2013 1:13pm

leonidas83 wrote: »

Just like now with Trap, because he was a successful manager 20+ years ago they think he can do no wrong & its all down to the players. They dont seem to realise the game has moved on alot since the early 90's, that we were made to look inferior at home by an average Austrian side who are ranked 80th in the world. That the style of football is embarrassing & really shows what Trap thinks of our footballing talent.

The style of football we played against Sweden and Austria for first 60 minutes wasn't.

We actually mixed it up with long ball and short, but we were playing a reasonable game on the eye.

They're actually much more positives then negatives for most of both games.

I saw a team who were doing things the fans expected and wanted and we got that.

The problem all arose in Traps tactical awareness in Austria game when we were put under the cosh so to speak. We were doing stupid things like throwing the ball back to them and hoofing long balls aimlessly back to them with no striker to attack them.

We sat back and invited the pressure. The problems was not Green coming on it was Walters going to CF when we needed numbers in Midfield.

Our mentality totally changed for the last 30 minutes. That is the managers fault. Had we kept doing what we did right till the end of Sweden game and for 60 minutes against Austria we would be 2nd in group now on 10 points and have realistic chance of playoff.

EdenHazard · 28-03-2013 1:17pm

Why can people not take the game on its own and just accept Trap did not do a good job when it mattered? If this happened to your beloved club side you would call out the manager on this so Irish fans are entitled to as well. He made the wrong decisions.

Its not that Austria controlled possession, that's fair enough, technical ability, alaba yada yada yada. but they DOMINATED us for 30 minutes(85 per cent possession at one stage) That is farcial and shouldn't be accepted.We have a team of Premiership/high end championship players their level is way above that. Its Trap's fault. Its a common pattern, when we NEED to play after going behind we usually can except if its against a team that we clearly are weaker than(however other small countries can do it, so Trap's inferiority complex has to be mentioned) So when we need to play and attack we can, so arguments about 'this being our level' don't hold up.

I remember in the home leg for the playoffs, we allowed Estonia pass it through us. We make it easy for the opposition.

Blatter · 28-03-2013 1:56pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

See, that's so annoying. I said this morning that Sammon was left on too long and that I would have personally done things differently the last 20. I just don't think that equates to Trapp being responsible for the loss or not being a good coach.

Yes I know you said that. You still didn't address how it was a basic poor decision to stick with 4-4-2, push Walters up front and Green on the right.

I can live with poor decisions now and again, everybody makes them. What I can't live with is basic errors being made on a regular basis. And this isn't just with regards in-game decisions, which there has been quite a few. This also applies to his píss poor communication with players leading to needless fall outs and picking blatantly incorrect teams before matches amongst other things.

LuckyLloyd · 28-03-2013 2:01pm

Blatter wrote: »

Yes I know you said that. You still didn't address how it was a basic poor decision to stick with 4-4-2, push Walters up front and Green on the right.

I can live with poor decisions now and again, everybody makes them. What I can't live with is basic errors being made on a regular basis. And this isn't just with regards in-game decisions, which there has been quite a few. This also applies to his píss poor communication with players leading to needless fall outs and picking blatantly incorrect teams before matches amongst other things.

The 4-4-2 wasn't conclusively the problem though. It could have been fine if one of the two strikers wasn't completely gassed.

The_Kew_Tour · 28-03-2013 2:03pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The 4-4-2 wasn't conclusively the problem though. It could have been fine if one of the two strikers wasn't completely gassed.

4-4-2 was the main problem imo.

5 in the middle was badly needed especially the last 10 minutes.

applehunter · 28-03-2013 2:06pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The 4-4-2 wasn't conclusively the problem though. It could have been fine if one of the two strikers wasn't completely gassed.

Let down the guard man.

Always with the proviso's.

You were so close to saying it.

Blatter · 28-03-2013 2:12pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The 4-4-2 wasn't conclusively the problem though. It could have been fine if one of the two strikers wasn't completely gassed.

It was part of the problem. The Austrians had a 3 v 2 in the middle going on the whole game in their favour and it clearly began to tell in the second half.

Putting on a fresh striker up front instead of Sammon at the least would have helped us somewhat though and why he didn't do at least that is beyond me. But the real thing to do was to drop another man into midfield and there's not many managers that wouldn't have done it.

Trap is out on his own with these types of decisions. It's as if he refuses to change tactics mid game as it would indicate that his initial selection was wrong and he doesn't want to be seen as weak. It's either that (damagingly stubborn) or he has actually lost touch with his ability to analyse a game. Either way, it's the same results for us. We have to put up with these bizarre, nonsensical decisions.

EdenHazard · 28-03-2013 2:14pm

tbh we don't have the players so trap needs to be doing everything in his power to give us the best chance of excelling. having 2 people up against 3 midfielders at international level is asking for trouble. if england struggle to cope with 4-4-2 what chance have our players of less quality got? Its the reason he needs to go.

LuckyLloyd · 28-03-2013 2:17pm

Blatter wrote: »

It was part of the problem. The Austrians had a 3 v 2 in the middle going on the whole game in their favour and it clearly began to tell in the second half.

Putting on a fresh striker up front instead of Sammon at the least would have helped us somewhat though and why he didn't do at least that is beyond me. But the real thing to do was to drop another man into midfield and there's not many managers that wouldn't have done it.

Trap is out on his own with these types of decisions. It's as if he refuses to change tactics mid game as it would indicate that his initial selection was wrong and he doesn't want to be seen as weak. It's either that (damagingly stubborn) or he has actually lost touch with his ability to analyse a game. Either way, it's the same results for us. We have to put up with these bizarre, nonsensical decisions.

And the results have been perfectly acceptable.

Trapp decided to keep a press on. There was logic to keeping the shape we had. The mistake was not making the necessary changes to keep that press effective. They had an ever easier ability to move the ball around from the back into midfield as the second half wore on. Nearly got what we needed, and still had the opportunities to kill time in the last few but didn't take them.

Tel Aviv 8 years ago to be honest.

SomethingElse · 28-03-2013 2:24pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The 4-4-2 wasn't conclusively the problem though. It could have been fine if one of the two strikers wasn't completely gassed.

There is a precedent for Austrians doing that alright

ben.schlomo · 28-03-2013 2:27pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

And the results have been perfectly acceptable.

Trapp decided to keep a press on. There was logic to keeping the shape we had. The mistake was not making the necessary changes to keep that press effective. They had an ever easier ability to move the ball around from the back into midfield as the second half wore on. Nearly got what we needed, and still had the opportunities to kill time in the last few but didn't take them.

Tel Aviv 8 years ago to be honest.

A draw at home to Austria is not perfectly acceptable, even the senile old goat himself said beforehand that it was a must win. Too stubborn for his own good and he got what he deserved. No matter what happens he will be here until the end of the qualifiers and then the rebuilding and redesigning of how we set up and play can begin.

LuckyLloyd · 28-03-2013 2:32pm

SomethingElse wrote: »

There is a precedent for Austrians doing that alright

ben.schlomo wrote: »

A draw at home to Austria is not perfectly acceptable, even the senile old goat himself said beforehand that it was a must win. Too stubborn for his own good and he got what he deserved. No matter what happens he will be here until the end of the qualifiers and then the rebuilding and redesigning of how we set up and play can begin.

Oh dear, with fans like you who needs opponents?

You're right, it might be the first time during his reign that we genuinely underachieved in terms of a result.

Oh and, he was always going to be here until the end of the qualifiers and we were always going to have a new manager for the next campaign. All the whinging and hand wringing by the media was never going to change that.

ben.schlomo · 28-03-2013 2:37pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Oh dear, with fans like you who needs opponents?

You're right, it might be the first time during his reign that we genuinely underachieved in terms of a result.

Oh and, he was always going to be here until the end of the qualifiers and we were always going to have a new manager for the next campaign. All the whinging and hand wringing by the media was never going to change that.

Lol, pot kettle black there KK!! :rolleyes:

wonderfullife · 28-03-2013 2:39pm

ben.schlomo wrote: »

A draw at home to Austria is not perfectly acceptable, even the senile old goat himself said beforehand that it was a must win. Too stubborn for his own good and he got what he deserved. No matter what happens he will be here until the end of the qualifiers and then the rebuilding and redesigning of how we set up and play can begin.

At the start of the group his mandate was probably to get us to Rio. Then again every international coach has a mandate to try qualify for tournaments.

A realistic assessment by most observers would have been: Germany and Sweden to breeze through the group. Ireland and Austria to battle it out for the 3rd spot.

As it stands, due to our away point in Stockholm, Sweden are not breezing through this group. If they drop any points in Vienna then an already tight 3-way-go for 2nd, becomes even tighter.

In that context, results are acceptable. They are not stellar nor are they horrendous. Austria drew in Kazakhstan. If we drew in Astana there'd have been war on here.

So anyway yeah they are middle of the road, acceptable results and we're still in there pitching. We're certainly not behind the curve by much, if at all, on where most felt we would be right now.

noodler · 28-03-2013 2:43pm

Again the last 20 minutes was Trap's fault.

Apart from the crazy decision to take off Long rather than Sammon and the less crazy decision not to bring on Wes, there was one other thing I found bizarre.

What manager, in a game that tight, doesn't use all three subs in an attempt (if nothing else) to waste time and break up play, particularly when we are being dominated?

ben.schlomo · 28-03-2013 2:43pm

wonderfullife wrote: »

At the start of the group his mandate was probably to get us to Rio. Then again every international coach has a mandate to try qualify for tournaments.

A realistic assessment by most observers would have been: Germany and Sweden to breeze through the group. Ireland and Austria to battle it out for the 3rd spot.

As it stands, due to our away point in Stockholm, Sweden are not breezing through this group. If they drop any points in Vienna then an already tight 3-way-go for 2nd, becomes even tighter.

In that context, results are acceptable. They are not stellar nor are they horrendous. Austria drew in Kazakhstan. If we drew in Astana there'd have been war on here.

So anyway yeah they are middle of the road, acceptable results and we're still in there pitching. We're certainly not behind the curve by much, if at all, on where most felt we would be right now.

Cant disagree with that but the main problem most people have with him is that there have been obvious chances to change/improve things but he just ignores it, his communication with players is a disgrace, he has alienated some of our better players and has ignored many others. These things all taken together greatly detract from what have been (results wise) some good numbers.

LuckyLloyd · 28-03-2013 2:45pm

ben.schlomo wrote: »

Cant disagree with that but the main problem most people have with him is that there have been obvious chances to change/improve things but he just ignores it, his communication with players is a disgrace, he has alienated some of our better players and has ignored many others. These things all taken together greatly detract from what have been (results wise) some good numbers.

Results are the bottom line.

The_Kew_Tour · 28-03-2013 2:48pm

wonderfullife wrote: »

At the start of the group his mandate was probably to get us to Rio. Then again every international coach has a mandate to try qualify for tournaments.

A realistic assessment by most observers would have been: Germany and Sweden to breeze through the group. Ireland and Austria to battle it out for the 3rd spot.

As it stands, due to our away point in Stockholm, Sweden are not breezing through this group. If they drop any points in Vienna then an already tight 3-way-go for 2nd, becomes even tighter.

In that context, results are acceptable. They are not stellar nor are they horrendous. Austria drew in Kazakhstan. If we drew in Astana there'd have been war on here.

So anyway yeah they are middle of the road, acceptable results and we're still in there pitching. We're certainly not behind the curve by much, if at all, on where most felt we would be right now.

Our manager is on 1.7 million a year!!!

I expect a decent return for that money and far from a world beating side like Sweden to breeze to 2nd in the group.

I expect a challenge in the group and very worst come third(but right down to last game)

As things stand unless we do 2 things we have not done for 12 years, or never done that is
A. Beat a team seeded higher then us and
B. beating 2 good teams back to back

Then its good night for us even before we go to Germany.

For a manger to be anything worth 1.7 million I expect a home win against Austria. Nothing less.

Draws are nice away from home. Not worth a second look when playing in front of your own fans.

So far we have failed.

noodler · 28-03-2013 2:49pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Results are the bottom line.

They are, and wins over Cyprus, Andorra, Armenia etc are acceptable despite the fact we allowed them way too much ball and flirted with danger by sitting back with leads.

Conversely when that "strategy" doesn't pay off like it did on Tuesday, to the surprise of no one really, then the bottom line was that the result was absolutely not acceptable.

The one game of the four: Austria (H & A), Sweden (H & A) we should be winning was that one.

ben.schlomo · 28-03-2013 2:49pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Results are the bottom line.

Results wont be much good in two years time if we havent developed a team capable of performing at international level because he blindly ignores them. Anywho we could go round and round with this but there isnt much point, has been done to death, the haters can wait for qualifying to end and the Trap lovers can enjoy his negative, 442, stubborn swansong.

Backstreet Moyes · 28-03-2013 2:51pm

People defending Trap can you tell me if you agree with his team selections days before matches. This gives opponents time to pick their game plan to exploit this. Didn't Bilic say how he didn't have to prepare or something because he knew what we would do, something like that.

The failure to adapt from 4-4-2. It is reasonable to play it at times but things also need to be changed up. It's heart breaking at times to watch teams outnumber us in midfield and keep possession. Then when we get the ball we are overrun in midfield and we have to bypass midfield and hoof it forward and hope for the best. These are not tactics at all it's hit and hope football. I have no problem with hit and hoof against big teams but against minnows we still do it.

How Trap just underrates us altogether. People saying Austria have players in Europe so what. What does that prove the fact is they are ranked 39 places below us so it's safe to assume we have a decent team.

I won't even go into his man management skills because i don't think even Brady could defend them.

His failure to use the best options available and for some reason failing to give youth a chance. I have no doubt if Whelan didn't get injured McCarthy wouldn't have started against Sweeden obviously and Austria. If Dunne was fit i have no doubt O Shea would be rb and Coleman would be warming the bench. It's been injuries that have caused Trap to start playing our best players. Anybody can see the difference the full backs have made the last two games. How they were not starting at the Euro's is beyond me. Long, Coleman, McCarhthy and Wilson our best players over the last two games have been available long enough without being selected. People are saying well they are playing now so what. They should have been playing long before now. Trap doesn't deserve credit for finally starting to play his best players it's not something to get credit for it's common sense.

noodler · 28-03-2013 2:53pm

Nuts102 wrote: »

People defending Trap can you tell me if you agree with his team selections days before matches. This gives opponents time to pick their game plan to exploit this. Didn't Bilic say how he didn't have to prepare or something because he knew what we would do, something like that.

In fairness, I don't think that had anything to do with announcing the team a day early.

Pro. F · 28-03-2013 2:57pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Results are the bottom line.

And yet the other night you were on here talking up the performance, how many chances we created and how close we were to the win as a defence of Trap's approach. You are perfectly happy to use performances as evidence when it suits you.

wonderfullife · 28-03-2013 2:59pm

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Our manager is on 1.7 million a year!!!

I expect a decent return for that money and far from a world beating side like Sweden to breeze to 2nd in the group.

I expect a challenge in the group and very worst come third(but right down to last game)

As things stand unless we do 2 things we have not done for 12 years, or never done that is
A. Beat a team seeded higher then us and
B. beating 2 good teams back to back

Then its good night for us even before we go to Germany.

For a manger to be anything worth 1.7 million I expect a home win against Austria. Nothing less.

Draws are nice away from home. Not worth a second look when playing in front of your own fans.

So far we have failed.

I don't get what his salary has to do with it. He's paid a price for a job, that's market value dictating it and Denis O Brien is chipping in.

If we're going down that route then what do we expect if we get Jose Mourinho in to coach us pro bono for nothing? To finish bottom as he's doing it for free, so value for money is expecting nothing in return?!!

He's doing fine, if by the end of the campaign we finish 4th he has failed. If we finish 3rd he's done OK, no more than that, and if we make the play-offs he has done very well.

noodler · 28-03-2013 3:00pm

wonderfullife wrote: »

At the start of the group his mandate was probably to get us to Rio. Then again every international coach has a mandate to try qualify for tournaments.

A realistic assessment by most observers would have been: Germany and Sweden to breeze through the group. Ireland and Austria to battle it out for the 3rd spot.

As it stands, due to our away point in Stockholm, Sweden are not breezing through this group. If they drop any points in Vienna then an already tight 3-way-go for 2nd, becomes even tighter.

In that context, results are acceptable. They are not stellar nor are they horrendous. Austria drew in Kazakhstan. If we drew in Astana there'd have been war on here.

So anyway yeah they are middle of the road, acceptable results and we're still in there pitching. We're certainly not behind the curve by much, if at all, on where most felt we would be right now.

Horrible way to look at it though.

Austria lost points in Kazakhstan and we didn't - a win on Tuesday would have effectively knocked them out and out us in poll position.

Ditto with the Sweden game, an unexpected point there set us up brilliantly for last Tuesday's game.

We have performed below average along with Sweden and Austria except we have a 6-1 home to defeat to Germany on our records.

Damn UEFA/Fifa for making the standings based on goal difference again. I swear they waited for Austria to whip the Faroes 6-0 before deciding that.

The_Kew_Tour · 28-03-2013 3:04pm

wonderfullife wrote: »

I don't get what his salary has to do with it. He's paid a price for a job, that's market value dictating it and Denis O Brien is chipping in.

If we're going down that route then what do we expect if we get Jose Mourinho in to coach us pro bono for nothing? To finish bottom as he's doing it for free, so value for money is expecting nothing in return?!!

He's doing fine, if by the end of the campaign we finish 4th he has failed. If we finish 3rd he's done OK, no more than that, and if we make the play-offs he has done very well.

His salary has lot to do with it when that money could be spent on developing young players for the future. O Brien money or the FAI's.

I dont think its as simple as coming 3rd being ok and the others you said. I mean if we end up with 12 points and come 3rd that is a very poor campaign.

I remember Stan saying same thing about his Euro campaign in 08, but the results show what a disappointing 3rd it was. We were way behind Czech Republic when they were team that were very beatable.

wonderfullife · 28-03-2013 3:05pm

noodler wrote: »

Horrible way to look at it though.

Austria lost points in Kazakhstan and we didn't - a win on Tuesday would have effectively knocked them out and out us in poll position.

Ditto with the Sweden game, an unexpected point there set us up brilliantly for last Tuesday's game.

We have performed below average along with Sweden and Austria except we have a 6-1 home to defeat to Germany on our records.

Damn UEFA/Fifa for making the standings based on goal difference again. I swear they waited for Austria to whip the Faroes 6-0 before deciding that.

whilst unlikely given our striking options, i dont think it is completely beyond us to put 5, 6, 7 past the Faeroes. Obviously i wouldn't bank on it but it is not pie in the sky either. Ditto Kazaks at home final game not inconceivable to beat them 3 or 4.

The 6-1 defeat is a killer but we have at least 2 chances to turn that around, and of course any victory over sweden or austria would be at least a 2 goal swing in goal difference.

If it does ultimately come down to goal difference then yes we're probably goosed.

Pighead · 28-03-2013 3:12pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Oh dear, with fans like you who needs opponents?

You're right, it might be the first time during his reign that we genuinely underachieved in terms of a result.

Oh and, he was always going to be here until the end of the qualifiers and we were always going to have a new manager for the next campaign. All the whinging and hand wringing by the media was never going to change that.

The 'whinging and hand wringing' by the media generally included calls for McCarthy, Wilson and Coleman to be given much more game time.

This time last year Trap supporters like yourself were towing the party line with comments such as 'those players aren't an improvement on what we have already' and 'Coleman is a beaten docket' etc etc basically defending Trap to the hilt. It was obvious that those three would improve the team yet you couldn't see this due to your blind faith in Trap.

aindriu80 · 28-03-2013 3:25pm

After this campaign is over I want Ireland to switch to playing the football on the ground and keeping the ball. We can't put a game beyond sight with the long ball. A new formation is a must.

Essien · 28-03-2013 3:28pm

wonderfullife wrote: »

If we're going down that route then what do we expect if we get Jose Mourinho in to coach us pro bono for nothing? To finish bottom as he's doing it for free, so value for money is expecting nothing in return?!!

So have you scraped your way through the bottom of the barrel yet?

Desperate times indeed.

Pro. F · 28-03-2013 3:30pm

wonderfullife wrote: »

In recent games we have passed the ball slightly better, pressed in a very organised fashion (at times).

However, you are correct. But this is not a Trapattoni phenomenon by any means. We defended too deep and passed poorly under Kerr, Staunton, McCarthy too at times.

If this was an isolated phenomenon specific to this coach, severe questions would need to be posed about this coach. When it's a pattern under successive coaches, then it's a matter of analysing why we do this.

Kerr and Staunton weren't good enough. I don't think McCarthy is much good either tbh. Even still, under Kerr and McCarthy we never passed as bad nor defended as desperately as we do under Trap.

In recent times we passed the ball slightly okay against Sweden, themselves a team who are poor at keeping effective possession and so make it easier for the opposition to do it. And pressed up and defended in an organised enough manner. Then we were back to the same old shít against Austria. I've heard the "we've been changing recently" claim many times before during Trap's reign, I'm very much unconvinced.

wonderfullife wrote: »

There are many reasons but amongst them is a technical inability to keep hold of the ball. A technical deficiency amongst our players. This isn't unique to Ireland by any means. Most of our players ply their trade in England. At club level, with one or two notable exceptions (usually Swansea and Arsenal), English sides are incapable of possession football. That's under all sorts of coaches of varying abilities.

The current Spain side are MASTERS at organised pressing of the ball. But what enables them to do that is not a superior fitness level to us.... it's the fact that when they do regain the ball, they retain it so much better than any other side. So it becomes chicken and the egg - you keep it better, enabling you to chase it better when you lose it.

Lets face some facts: we simply do not have the pace in defensive areas to play a high defensive line. O' Shea, St. Ledger, Clark, even Wilson, would be left for dead by some of the pacy attackers in international football. Playing a high defensive line is not an option.

So, we drop deeper. In itself that's not a problem, many teams have deep-lying defensive lines and cope fine - but that's usually in part due to their ability to pass and retain the ball. Which we can't do. That's a coaching issue but one that the under-age coaches in this country and in England have to address, not Trap. He can encourage us to pass the ball - which we did better in Stockholm and for large parts of the 1st half on Friday. But he can do no more than that.

So, yes, we have issues with ball retention, we have issues with passing the ball, we have issues with dropping too deep. But it's a myopic view to say these problems are Trapattoni-created. When players can't keep the ball of course they will start to become disorganised in their pressing and, as a result of tiredness, drop deeper towards their own goal.

I've had the time to watch Montenegro v England, Wales v Croatia, Serbia v Scotland. I caught a few highlights of Northern Ireland. The problem you have rightly pointed out, was endemic in all of the games. Ireland, England, Wales, Scotland all started reasonably well in 1st halfs, passed, pressed, pressured, harried and did ok. But that primitive, limited style of football takes its toll on the body and across all 4 games they dropped progressively deeper in the 2nd half, couldn't find a team-mate with the ball, and there was wave after wave of pressure.

If that's a coincidence, it's a massive one. Or maybe it's just a case of the players in the British Isles play a certain way and that can only cut it for so long in an international fixture against technically better teams. The difference between us and England is their standard of technically inept players is higher than ours.

I agree that technical ability is a very big factor. If you can't keep possession at all then you'll never have the energy or momentum to press when the opposition have the ball. And I agree that in this part of the world we tend to produce far fewer players with good ball skills. But the fact that Trap continuously excludes and derides a good proportion of our most skilful players is an incredible handicap in this regard.

Another factor is how the manager manages the team. When you have an ultra cautious manager who constantly talks about the dangers of the opposition and the dangers of being caught in possession or out of position, how not losing is the most important thing, then that breeds fear in the team. Everything I have ever heard about Trapattoni, either from players or from himself, leads me to think he is this type of manager. Add that to the fact that we have to do without a good few of our best players and you end up with a team petrified to call for the ball.

I'm not talking about us playing a high line. A medium defensive block would be fine by me (ie not nearly as mad as the Spanish). We currently play the deepest line possible (falling back to the 18yrds far too often and the midfielders somehow ending up back there too at times). That's not good enough. It's especially not good enough seeing as our midfield pays no regard to where the back four is some of the time and pushes up without them, leaving gaps all over the place.

Your talk of British and Irish teams is reasonable. However, it's a matter of degree. There are plenty of club teams (and International teams in the past) in this region who have a dearth of technical players but still pass the ball better than us, and consequently get to defend higher. We get out passed by teams like Kazakhstan, Slovakia, Armenia, Bulgaria far too regularly. We are better than that. It is simply not creditable to argue otherwise.

SantryRed · 28-03-2013 3:30pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Results are the bottom line.

That 4-4-2 has been tremendously lucky for us and it is running out of luck since the Euros.

smileyj1987 · 28-03-2013 4:31pm

SantryRed wrote: »

That 4-4-2 has been tremendously lucky for us and it is running out of luck since the Euros.

Maybe we don't have the players to play that formation and we need to look at somethinge new .

Forde

Coleman----Clarke/Dunne---O'Shea---Wilson---

Green/Gibson----Mc Carthy/Whelan----
Walters/Brady

Houlahan/Mcarthy

Mc Clean/ Mc Geady

Long/Keane

That would be system and the players depending on who is fit . It will make us hard to break down much harder then 4-4-2 . If you make it hard for teams to score you give yourself a better chance of winning .

wonderfullife · 28-03-2013 5:21pm

smileyj1987 wrote: »

Maybe we don't have the players to play that formation and we need to look at somethinge new .
Forde
Coleman----Clarke/Dunne---O'Shea---Wilson---
Green/Gibson----Mc Carthy/Whelan----
Walters/Brady
Houlahan/Mcarthy
Mc Clean/ Mc Geady
Long/Keane

That would be system and the players depending on who is fit . It will make us hard to break down much harder then 4-4-2 . If you make it hard for teams to score you give yourself a better chance of winning .

I wouldn't be averse to playing 5-3-2, it's not a system that's employed a lot in football these days but it could suit our players.

Forde

O'Shea

Dunne

Clark

Coleman

McClean

Green---Gibson----McCarthy

Hoolahan/Walters/Pilkington

Long/Keane

ionadnapokot · 28-03-2013 5:33pm

442. Extremely difficult to impose your game on a team with two centre midfielders v 3. “Obviously”.
Unless you have a certain (shaved head!) world class player in centre midfield; 2 v 3 does not work. Simples
More often than not you will also be exposed defensively by 3 CM’s playing triangles (metaphorical!). I counted four separate occasions where this happened against Austria. Not including the goal.
Didn’t bother counting during the Euros. And lost count in the Russian matches.
and on and on we go

ionadnapokot · 28-03-2013 5:37pm

Why is he wearing a scarf in studio?
looks like hes trying not to smirk:o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmTUCXZ0i5s

SirDelboy18 · 28-03-2013 6:25pm

It must be tough for the pro Trap side to come up with a convincing argument. I don't think the majority could do it and keep a straight face.

smileyj1987 · 28-03-2013 6:31pm

wonderfullife wrote: »

I wouldn't be averse to playing 5-3-2, it's not a system that's employed a lot in football these days but it could suit our players.
Forde
O'Shea
Dunne
Clark
Coleman
McClean
Green---Gibson----McCarthy
Hoolahan/Walters/Pilkington
Long/Keane

That could work very well for the team but I don't think trap will try out any of those formations . I honestly think we should use our upcomng friendlies to try out a lot of different formations to find out what will suit the players .

LuckyLloyd · 28-03-2013 6:36pm

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

It must be tough for the pro Trap side to come up with a convincing argument. I don't think the majority could do it and keep a straight face.

First Major Championship appearance in a decade. That was real easy.

wonderfullife · 28-03-2013 6:46pm

SirDelboy18 wrote: »

It must be tough for the pro Trap side to come up with a convincing argument. I don't think the majority could do it and keep a straight face.

I'm not sure there is a Pro-Trap/Anti-Trap divide.

We have one set of fans (the majority) who dislike the coach and want him gone. Mainly because: 1. we play unattractive football 2. He doesn't pick players they rate 3. He doesn't go to the games 4. He's paid too much money 5. He doesn't speak good English.

The other camp acknowledge all of the above yet see the progress this man has made from a team genuinely in disarray under Staunton to a battle-hardened organised outfit with one of the best away records in Europe. But for a bit of tricky business from Thierry it could have been 2 major championships from 2 for this coach. It still might be 2 major championships out of 3, which is something only Charlton has managed to do.

To see where we were in 2007 and to where we are now, i think a lot of fair minded people are willing to say 'good job sir' and not 'sack him he's old, overpaid and useless'.

Blatter · 28-03-2013 6:51pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

And the results have been perfectly acceptable.

Trapp decided to keep a press on. There was logic to keeping the shape we had. The mistake was not making the necessary changes to keep that press effective. They had an ever easier ability to move the ball around from the back into midfield as the second half wore on. Nearly got what we needed, and still had the opportunities to kill time in the last few but didn't take them.

Tel Aviv 8 years ago to be honest.

We are going to have to agree to disagree.

wonderfullife wrote: »

I'm not sure there is a Pro-Trap/Anti-Trap divide.

We have one set of fans (the majority) who dislike the coach and want him gone. Mainly because: 1. we play unattractive football 2. He doesn't pick players they rate 3. He doesn't go to the games 4. He's paid too much money 5. He doesn't speak good English. 6. Is tactically inept during games (and before games) 7. Unnecessarily falls out with lots of players 8. Continuously puts the team down to cover his own back

A few you've forgotten.

aindriu80 · 28-03-2013 7:12pm

Any formation change that puts more players in the middle of the pitch has to be looked at. If our possession drops how can we keep defending. Its simply agonizing to watch.

gnfnrhead · 29-03-2013 1:16am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

First Major Championship appearance in a decade. That was real easy.

Some people seem to be under the impression that we are San Marino. We're not. Bar Stan, we have always been there or thereabout. Even Stan wasnt a million miles off. For the amount of money he is on, qualifying should have been the bare minimum we expected.

monkey9 · 29-03-2013 1:58am

Trap has diluted us. If we're not going to win or qualify, i'd rather we didn't win or qualify by getting stuck in and giving the fans something to cheer about. Make going to Lansdowne something to look forward to again.

He's on the other night saying we're not Germany or England. Well Trap, we're not Italy either. We're not going to see out one nil victories.

I'm trying to remember who we have actually beaten at home under Trap. Armenia, San Marino or Andorra can't remember which, Georgia. Anyone else? Anybody relevent?

Ireland Vs Austria - K/O 7:45PM - Sky Sports 2 & RTÉ 2

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