Ireland Vs Austria - K/O 7:45PM - Sky Sports 2 & RTÉ 2

The_Kew_Tour

homerjay2005 wrote: »

its not the doomsday scenario people are proclaiming, lets get behind the team and support them.

They need the supporters behind them tomorrow.

It's not Sammons fault he is picked.

10 from 11 selections is not bad in fairness.

LuckyLloyd

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

They need the supporters behind them tomorrow.

It's not Sammons fault he is picked.

10 from 11 selections is not bad in fairness.

And moreover, he will be the last person on the pitch lacking in effort. Expect he'll run his absolute balls off tomorrow night and give it his all and you could always do worse than that.

briany

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Under Charlton it was about Whelan, O' Leary
Under McCarthy there was Keane being played as a sweeper, debates over Mark Kennedy at times
Under Kerr to Gary Doherty or not Gary Doherty was a point of contention
Under Staunton there was the Finnan / Carr on opposite sides stuff

If only we could be debating over those kinds of player now....

LuckyLloyd

briany wrote: »

If only we could be debating over those kinds of player now....

I agree - and is kind of an important point some forget too easily imo!

Pro. F

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Under Charlton it was about Whelan, O' Leary
Under McCarthy there was Keane being played as a sweeper, debates over Mark Kennedy at times
Under Kerr to Gary Doherty or not Gary Doherty was a point of contention
Under Staunton there was the Finnan / Carr on opposite sides stuff

Times like the 2002 WC proper where the 11 picked itself at that snapshot in time are few and far between. There will always be disagreement over certain selections; always be some player out of the squad who people think should be in the mix; and always be people against the manager looking for every tiny excuse to complain.

It's not just one or two players with Trap. It's not just a contentious selection that can be argued either way because of tactical approach. It's completely excluding players like Wilson, Coleman, McCarthy and Hoolahan and playing the likes of Ward, Cox and Samon ahead of them. These are not selections that you can argue for with honesty and they are not isolated incidents. On top of that Trap makes up bullshít reasons for excluding the players (like saying that Wilson had done something unacceptable during the camp and then contradicting himself later) and/or publicly derides their ability, intelligence and mentality.

LuckyLloyd

roanoke wrote: »

Do you miss Doherty that much?

Funny thing is, during the timeframe he was selected for Ireland while playing in the Premiership he'd command a starting spot in the current 11, particularly with Dunner out. We'd be damn glad of his best years now.

Essien

10/11 is about as good as we can expect. Maybe Sammon can at least offer enough physicality to wear them down before Hoolahan gets a go at them from about 60 mins or so.

Hopefully he'll prove us all wrong.

Banjaxed82

wonderfullife wrote: »

That's not saying we hoof it up to Sammon non-stop, but it adds a focal point to the play if we choose that option wisely.

C'mon. What other way is he going to play with Sammon up front. It stinks of directness.

wonderfullife wrote: »

Playing Hoolahan from the start would be slightly negative, in the sense it would be more of a 4-5-1 and rely on us to play through the middle, negating the clear quality in our wide positions. Fully expecting Coleman, McClean and Wilson to be attacking the flanks and balls into the middle for Sammon and Long.

Negative? Are you actually serious? Having Hoolahan playing is the reason why our wingers would be on the ball more. Are you serious?

LuckyLloyd

Pro. F wrote: »

It's not just one or two players with Trap. It's not just a contentious selection that can be argued either way because of tactical approach. It's completely excluding players like Wilson, Coleman, McCarthy and Hoolahan and playing the likes of Ward, Cox and Samon ahead of them. These are not selections that you can argue for with honesty and they are not isolated incidents. On top of that Trap makes up bullshít reasons for excluding the players (like saying that Wilson had done something unacceptable during the camp and then contradicting himself later) and/or publicly derides their ability, intelligence and mentality.

Wilson, Colemann and McCarthy have been involved the last few Internationals. It was clear up front in November 2011 that the squad that got us there would be the one's to do the job in Polkrania and that things would be reassesed after. That is what has been done to date and yet you still moan?

As for Hoolahan, he doesn't fit with the system, that's it. There is no randomness to what the intent is tomorrow night. This will be a big and strong Irish side with the best available free kick taker in the squad put straight back in. People may not like that approach but it is definitely a valid one given the resources at our disposal.

Dubh Geannain

Kingp35 wrote: »

My problem doesn't lie with the system, my problem lies with Conor Sammon.

He is nowhere near international standard, and it's a crazy choice to have him in the squad, never mind playing!

I'd go so far as to put Green up front ahead of Sammon if Trap insists on being awkward. At least he's got a better first touch.

Thinking on Traps logic-
I think Sammon is thrown into the mix as a random generator of events. Long ball will bounce off him. 5% chance it bounces to our advantage. Kick 20 long balls up there we'll get 1 good chance. It's better than none.

SantryRed

homerjay2005 wrote: »

exactly, with the exception of Sammon, the team is pretty spot on, lets not forget we have alot of injuries and the only player who is not otherwise available for selection is Gibson.

Brady or Hoolhan for Sammon would be the ideal scenario, but maybe trap wants an aerial presence for the first part of the game anyway.

its not the doomsday scenario people are proclaiming, lets get behind the team and support them.

Starting Sammon ahead of Hoolahan is huge and it's the biggest change that can happen around the whole pitch. Having Wes on means we will have a lot more possession and not resort to hoof ball, with Sammon instead, it's hoofball central on Tuesday night and I don't see how we will retain the ball well enough.

Andersonisgod

I'm shocked. Genuinely shocked. Yes I know it's Trapattoni and he is hardly a paragon of beautiful football but even so this takes the proverbial biscuit. In Wes Hoolahan you have the most technically impressive player available to Ireland. The kind of small, energetic and industrious playmaker that Sweden and Ireland (up until the 75th minute) were both sorely lacking. The kind of player who, following Barcelona and Spain's domination of football in recent times, has come to be appreciated the world over. Lacking size and physical strength but with guile and ability to make up for it.

Against Sweden Trapattoni had a reasonable excuse. Hoolahan hasn't a great amount of international experience and away to Sweden we need the experience and leadership of captain Keane (on the night Keane was awful but that's beside the point.) However with Keane injured there is no excuse. Hoolahan's impressive cameo, his ability on the ball (something the team desperately lacks) and sheer common sense should have won through here and with it Hoolahan should have been named in the starting 11.

That a player like Wes Hoolahan can't get ahead of an untalented donkey (workhorse, not a jibe at the man personally) like Sammon is a disgrace. A disgrace committed by a manager who is out of touch with the modern game, whose stone age views of football have only served to slow the development of Irish football, in my opinion the man has dragged Irish football back 20 years. In this era, few countries would actually allow such crimes against football to be committed on such a regular basis as the Irish public does. Trapattoni, on a ridiculous wage, gets a comparatively easy ride from the Irish public. The man would never have lasted this long in most other countries because they actually enjoy having a team they can be proud of and this Irish team certainly isn't that.

applehunter

Hoolahan should be playing anyway. Whatever system is in place. He is one of our best players at this stage and his willingness to get on the ball and link play is something we have struggled with since Trap took over.

How he is not playing after Keane withdrawing is baffling.

Hope Sammon can step up to the plate. As Lloyd said, he won't lack for effort.

El Inho

When I played football manager when i was younger, sometimes when the form was low I would play the younger players in my team in an effort to find a star who wants to emerge from the shadows....

It never worked...and it strikes fear into me that Trap is trying it :P

at least mccarthy starts, and I know nothing about Salmon to judge him to be honest.

The_B_Man

I'm not saying he's Messi or anything, but I was at the Poland game and Sammon wasn't half as bad as people are making him out to be.

I dunno if he was slated in the post-match analysis and everyone's jumping on that bandwagon or what, but as far as the Austria game is concerned, he'll do.

Banjaxed82

The_B_Man wrote: »

I'm not saying he's Messi or anything, but I was at the Poland game and Sammon wasn't half as bad as people are making him out to be.

I dunno if he was slated in the post-match analysis and everyone's jumping on that bandwagon or what, but as far as the Austria game is concerned, he'll do.

It's not completely the man himself, it's what his selection stands for - hoof ball, knock downs, set pieces and fingers crossed.

ionadnapokot

Very surprised with how we played on Friday. A good draw.
I would prefer Hoolihan over Sammon for Tuesday.having said that i dont know that much about Austria.
RB. Garics CB Dragovic CB Pogatetz LB. Fuchs
Full backs look decent going forward. Centre backs look physically strong. Trap reverting to type with 2 upfront. Hopefully Sammon can at least unsettle the CB's and create space for Long. Nick a goal and bring on Wes for Sammon to see out game. No Prob!

RVD420

Thread title says this is on Sky Sports 2, is it on RTE also? I though Sky only had rights to show our friendlies (nice work, Delaney)

briany

RVD420 wrote: »

Thread title says this is on Sky Sports 2, is it on RTE also? I though Sky only had rights to show our friendlies (nice work, Delaney)

The FAI would give it exclusively to SKY if they could and we know because they already tried to once and the government had to intervene and tell them they wouldn't allow it. That's the FAI for you.

RVD420

briany wrote: »

The FAI would give it exclusively to SKY if they could and we know because they already tried to once and the government had to intervene and tell them they wouldn't allow it. That's the FAI for you.

Yeah, they're a great bunch of lads...

According to the RTE site they (RTE) will be showing the game tomorrow, so crisis over for now....

Don't know why the title references Sky Sports rather than RTE, but whatever....

marbless

The_B_Man wrote: »

I'm not saying he's Messi or anything, but I was at the Poland game and Sammon wasn't half as bad as people are making him out to be.

According to the Examiner today Sammon became the 26th different player fielded by Gio Trap in our four qualifying games when he came in for Long the other night. They said that's as many players as we used during the ENTIRE last campaign.

Can this be right?

Soups123

Only disapointment is Sammon, other than that pretty much what was expected.

Would have muched preferred Hoolihan or Doyle. Go Ireland

whiskeyman

We'd 0 (count them!) shots on goal on Fri.
It's no surprise Sammon is starting.
We played well down the wings on Friday (best I've ever seen under Trap) but everything fizzled out in the final third.
Hopefully Sammon providing the option of the tall target man could make all the difference.
It doesn't mean Trap will resort totally to hoofball (I hope!). Friday will have shown we can build on play, but we need more options.

andyman

Bit upset with the Sammon decision, but I was also upset with the Green inclusion last time round and he put in a good shift. Sammon shouldn't be starting but he'll be out to prove a point and it might well work in our favour. I really hope it doesn't mean hoof ball all the way through though.

Walters starting on the right makes sense also. There's a certain David Alaba who'll need to be watched very carefully.

homerjay2005

whiskeyman wrote: »

We'd 0 (count them!) shots on goal on Fri.

this can be a very misleading stat at times, as we created 3 excellent chances, all of which were down to poor finishing rather than a lack of creation.

we could have 10 shots that dribble into the hands of the keeper from 30 yards out that will never go in unless the keeper makes a right f8ck up.

SantryRed

whiskeyman wrote: »

We'd 0 (count them!) shots on goal on Fri.
It's no surprise Sammon is starting.
We played well down the wings on Friday (best I've ever seen under Trap) but everything fizzled out in the final third.
Hopefully Sammon providing the option of the tall target man could make all the difference.
It doesn't mean Trap will resort totally to hoofball (I hope!). Friday will have shown we can build on play, but we need more options.

Playing 4-4-2 does not automatically equal more shots on target. Keane playing in a half and half role and largely doing nothing in either role is why we didn't have my chances. If Hoolahan had played that role we would have had a bit more going forward IMo.

eagle eye

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Under Charlton it was about Whelan, O' Leary
Under McCarthy there was Keane being played as a sweeper, debates over Mark Kennedy at times
Under Kerr to Gary Doherty or not Gary Doherty was a point of contention
Under Staunton there was the Finnan / Carr on opposite sides stuff

Times like the 2002 WC proper where the 11 picked itself at that snapshot in time are few and far between. There will always be disagreement over certain selections; always be some player out of the squad who people think should be in the mix; and always be people against the manager looking for every tiny excuse to complain.

Chris Morris was hated in the Charlton era by a similar bunch to those who give out about Green now. Mick McCarthy was the other one that these people loved to hate, I remember Charlton banned Dunphy from press conferences as he was constantly trashing his tactics and those players.

The next one I remember being absolutely hated was Alan Kernaghan, then it was Phil Babb, then Doherty got a bit of it and then Paul McShane. Its been Green for the last while and I fear Conor Sammon will be next unless he has a brilliant game against Austria.

gosplan

5 days ago: wtf is Green doing starting. Joke IMO blah blah.

Today: wtf is green doing on the bench, wtf is sammon doing starting.

Clueless Irish supporters. Won't be happy until the current 11 highest profile players are wedged into whatever formation can accommodate them.

The_Kew_Tour

gosplan wrote: »

Clueless Irish supporters. Won't be happy until the current 11 highest profile players are wedged into whatever formation can accommodate them.

This.

Now tbf myself and others have had issues with team selection etc and some decisions have been baffling, but at same time you can see the people who will just have pop for sake of it rather then maybe see why Trap has picked certin players ahead of others.

Andersonisgod

gosplan wrote: »

5 days ago: wtf is Green doing starting. Joke IMO blah blah.

Today: wtf is green doing on the bench, wtf is sammon doing starting.

Clueless Irish supporters. Won't be happy until the current 11 highest profile players are wedged into whatever formation can accommodate them.

Because a 4-4-1-1 with Hoolahan as a number 10 would be completely unheard of?

Rekop dog

I've got to the stage of just lolling at the anti Trap brigade, parody of themselves now. Don't forget these are the same group that saw fit to give McClean the loudest reception ever heard at Lansdowne Road, hardly judges of ability that should command respect.

applehunter

Rekop dog wrote: »

I've got to the stage of just lolling at the anti Trap brigade, parody of themselves now. Don't forget these are the same group that saw fit to give McClean the loudest reception ever heard at Lansdowne Road, hardly judges of ability that should command respect.

What brigade are you in?

GLaDOS

Are people really that shocked? It's a typical Trap decision, for better or worse.

Wilson being a doubt is a big concern for me, himself and Coleman were a big factor in some of our best play on Friday.

gosplan

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

This.

Now tbf myself and others have had issues with team selection etc and some decisions have been baffling, but at same time you can see the people who will just have pop for sake of it rather then maybe see why Trap has picked certin players ahead of others.

Me too but I think you can see the fantasy manager coming out in people.

Things like Sammon's ability to physically wear down the defenders, Walters being needed to cover for Coleman because a Coleman/Brady flank is very light, Whelan being preferred to Green because McLean and McCarthy are quite new to this level.

If you examine things, there's a reason for everything that Trap does.

I'm not saying everything he does is correct but it's rational.

It is not as many would argue, the deranged fumblings of a senile old man who is clearly wrong because I know from playing FIFA.

Mikeyt086

gosplan wrote: »

5 days ago: wtf is Green doing starting. Joke IMO blah blah.

Today: wtf is green doing on the bench, wtf is sammon doing starting.

Clueless Irish supporters. Won't be happy until the current 11 highest profile players are wedged into whatever formation can accommodate them.

Sorry but has one person said that?

You've also managed to call generalise all Irish supporters as clueless. Super argument there.

briany

Rekop dog wrote: »

I've got to the stage of just lolling at the anti Trap brigade, parody of themselves now. Don't forget these are the same group that saw fit to give McClean the loudest reception ever heard at Lansdowne Road, hardly judges of ability that should command respect.

Some of that OTT reaction is a product of frustration at Trap's reticence to bring in players who represent the future and a positive playing style. It's not McClean worship anymore than the Sammon thing is deriding that player. Putting Sammon on as a target man is a clear indication of the way Ireland intend to put together most of their attacks tomorrow night. It's all to play for but instead of looking to create, we'll be looking for a fortuitous knock down or knock on to net us that most precious goal or to whip in a cross. We'll also be watching the team try to absorb pressure.

Any team playing Ireland knows the way they're likely to be attacked because the philosophy never changes. A bit of craft in the centre wouldn't go to far astray if you ask me.

applehunter

Speaking for myself.

I don't see any future in the road the management team is going down. It has been shown time and time again that the system/philosophy will be found out when it counts.

gosplan

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

Sorry but has one person said that?

You've also managed to call generalise all Irish supporters as clueless. Super argument there.

Yes, though I was paraphrasing.

Misread me for the second bit.

There are clueless irish supporters. It's not all of them though.

Augmerson

gosplan wrote: »

5 days ago: wtf is Green doing starting. Joke IMO blah blah.

Today: wtf is green doing on the bench, wtf is sammon doing starting.

Clueless Irish supporters. Won't be happy until the current 11 highest profile players are wedged into whatever formation can accommodate them.

Such sweeping generalisations would make your head spin. Statements seems as equally clueless tbf.

Corholio

Some of the 'pro-Trap brigade' love to exaggerate the so called things the 'anti Trap brigade' say, this is just as bad as anyone over the top criticising Trap.

There are also clueless Irish supporters who will lap up anything Trap gives them. Some almost can't wait until the next manager loses a game so they can say told you so and more guff like that.

jimjamcos

Salmon upfront...he's almost reptilian like in his movement.

briany

jimjamcos wrote: »

Salmon upfront...he's almost reptilian like in his movement.

Salmon up front. Salmon up de town. Dishin' out shnakey runs and shlaps to any officials who get smart. C'mere hei, I heard he scored 10 goals one Sunday mornin' full of yokes. G'lad.

SantryRed

Rekop dog wrote: »

I've got to the stage of just lolling at the anti Trap brigade, parody of themselves now. Don't forget these are the same group that saw fit to give McClean the loudest reception ever heard at Lansdowne Road, hardly judges of ability that should command respect.

Yes, everyone is the exact same. Well done

Essien

gosplan wrote: »

5 days ago: wtf is Green doing starting. Joke IMO blah blah.

Today: wtf is green doing on the bench, wtf is sammon doing starting.

Well as long as McCarthy starts, I doubt too many really care whether its Whelan or Green, the difference is surely marginal if any, personally I'd go for Whelan but I could live with either one at this stage. I'd say it's more a feeling of surprise than outrage (which you seem to be implying) this time round as there are a few who feel Green played well on Friday and may deserve to keep his place.


And Hoolahan is obv the better choice to Sammon, maybe not in a traditional 442, but certainly in a 4411. The question is whether we play one or the other? Well considering 4411 on Friday delivered one of our most unanimously lauded performances under Trap to date, I reckon that question has been answered.

PurpleSt4in

gosplan wrote: »

Me too but I think you can see the fantasy manager coming out in people.

Things like Sammon's ability to physically wear down the defenders, Walters being needed to cover for Coleman because a Coleman/Brady flank is very light, Whelan being preferred to Green because McLean and McCarthy are quite new to this level.

If you examine things, there's a reason for everything that Trap does.

I'm not saying everything he does is correct but it's rational.

It is not as many would argue, the deranged fumblings of a senile old man who is clearly wrong because I know from playing FIFA.

I just don't like when people say that. What are they/you trying to say? It's silly IMO

gosplan

PurpleSt4in wrote: »

I just don't like when people say that. What are they/you trying to say? It's silly IMO

If you've an attacking full-back like Coleman, it might not be ideal to start a young inexperienced winger in front of him. That's all.

ForeverYoung90

Must win game tomorrow night.As said Whelan/Green are similar enough would side slightly towards Whelan myself.Glad to see McCarthy keeping place.Long and Sammon up front doesn't show much promise for me though.Doyle should be our no1 striker imo.Wilson and Coleman are class full backs.Hope Forde puts in another solid showing. COYBIG!

briany

Essien wrote: »

And Hoolahan is obv the better choice to Sammon, maybe not in a traditional 442, but certainly in a 4411. The question is whether we play one or the other? Well considering 4411 on Friday delivered one of our most unanimously lauded performances under Trap to date, I reckon that question has been answered.

You have to weigh the performance vs. prior expectation to see the big picture. Everyone, the public/pundits/bookies thought Ireland would crumble on Friday with all that had been going on but they just went ahead and put in the same defensively stubborn performance they always do away from home. That's laudable but it doesn't change the fact that Ireland need to win this game to remain in control of their destiny. I'm trying to look at this double header as two halves of the same game and I think the only way to make a clear judgement of the team's progress is after the dust settles on Tuesday night.

wonderfullife

Banjaxed82 wrote: »

C'mon. What other way is he going to play with Sammon up front. It stinks of directness.



Negative? Are you actually serious? Having Hoolahan playing is the reason why our wingers would be on the ball more. Are you serious?

If Wes plays from the start he'll be dropping deeper to link up with McCarthy and Whelan. That leaves a large gap between the midfield and Long, who is not cut out for a lone striker role (he played it for West Brom a few times this season, ran his balls off chasing shadows).

Even if you assume Wes starting means we have more of the ball spread to our wingers, you're still left with nothing to hit in the middle for crosses.

So, yes, i'm serious that playing Wes and McCarthy from the start would be a negative move. A positive move is putting Sammon up top with Long, with Whelan sitting deep and McCarthy allowed to join the attacks.

Being a better ball player doesn't always mean it's a more positive selection. Ferguson showed that in the Real Madrid match. Rooney is a better ball player than Welbeck, but by putting Welbeck and RVP up top, with Carrick sitting, it allowed Nani and/or Giggs to join attacks with more to aim at. It also allowed United to hit direct diagonals.

SantryRed wrote: »

Starting Sammon ahead of Hoolahan is huge and it's the biggest change that can happen around the whole pitch. Having Wes on means we will have a lot more possession and not resort to hoof ball, with Sammon instead, it's hoofball central on Tuesday night and I don't see how we will retain the ball well enough.

Starting with a big man does not automatically mean hoofball. It's about finding the right mixture. Look at the 2002 World Cup, we played a lot of on the ground football but still had the option of the direct ball to Quinn looking to lay Robbie in, and had Quinns height from set-pieces. But we still played a good deal of football on the ground.

It happens at a lot of clubs with big target men. Stoke and West Ham this year, for all that they get a bad rep, play a lot of fooball on the ground and have an option of direct balls to vary the play.

It's a very dismissive view to think Coleman, Wilson and Clark are just going to pick the ball up and hoof it in the direction of Sammon. They may do that on occasion but i doubt that will be the way we play on the whole.

PurpleSt4in

gosplan wrote: »

If you've an attacking full-back like Coleman, it might not be ideal to start a young inexperienced winger in front of him. That's all.

Yeah fair enough if we had an actual experienced winger to put there... but we're putting Walters there.