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Blanco100

Glad to see I sparked some debate re: Froch v Canelo.

I do think Canelo can out point Froch, hurt him to the body

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

All Froch’s wins were against real 168 lbers. Canelo is a 154-160 fighter at his best I reckon. Still very good above this, just too small for me for Froch

Froch’s resume at 168 is clearly superior to Canelo’s.

His wins over Taylor, Kessler, Pascal, Bute, Arthur etc were all against proper SMW fighters with real talent. Taylor, did move up from MW, but he was big at MW

Taylor and Abraham were both at their best at 160 though. Neither did anything special at the weight.

Of course Froch has the better resume at the weight given he had his whole career there and Canelo has had only had three fights. I'd pick Canelo to beat the versions of each fighter Froch beat without any hesitation though. I don't think Canelo would've got so outclassed by a one handed Andre Ward either. Would've been much more competitive.

I think Joe Calzaghe with his hand speed, gas tank and movement could've given Canelo a much tougher night.

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

Taylor and Abraham were both at their best at 160 though. Neither did anything special at the weight.

Of course Froch has the better resume at the weight given he had his whole career there and Canelo has had only had three fights. I'd pick Canelo to beat the versions of each fighter Froch beat without any hesitation though. I don't think Canelo would've got so outclassed by a one handed Andre Ward either. Would've been much more competitive.

I think Joe Calzaghe with his hand speed, gas tank and movement could've given Canelo a much tougher night.

Clazaghe a horrible match for Canelo.....eat him up with volume and angles and speed and reach and height....

blade1

walshb wrote: »

Clazaghe a horrible match for Canelo.....eat him up with volume and angles and speed and reach and height....

And bitch slaps

walshb

Michael Conlan on the BT card tomorrow, as is Sunny Edwards, who challenges for the 112 lbs IBF Flyweight title against the champion, Moruti Mthalane

MC is favorite, but not near the level that he normally is....he is 5-1 on!!

normanoffside

walshb wrote: »

Michael Conlan on the BT card tomorrow, as is Sunny Edwards, who challenges for the 112 lbs IBF Flyweight title against the champion, Moruti Mthalane

MC is favorite, but not near the level that he normally is....he is 5-1 on!!

Surprised he made Super Bantam

https://twitter.com/boxing_social/status/1387761416678092800

walshb

normanoffside wrote: »

Surprised he made Super Bantam

https://twitter.com/boxing_social/status/1387761416678092800

Very similarly sized men

Yes, a tough ask for an almost 30 year old 5 feet 8 inches Conlan to boil to 122 lbs; he has said that he can make it handy. I don;t believe that, but of course, all fighters will say this

MC was fighting at 124 lbs almost ten years ago.......

I am not sure he has ever been 122 or under as a pro, maybe the once....

Anyway, this opponent is basic enough. But he comes to throw punches with intent. MC, if he can avoid or take the heat, will be far too skilled I feel.

SHOVELLER

squinn2912 wrote: »

God I thought I’d imagined the fielding mismatch. What a beating. I think a hungry Kov would’ve beaten canelo too. Not many wanted to tangle with him when he was in his prime.

Yea I can see Saunders being surprisingly competitive but I don’t think Canelo will be in much danger.

I see Eubank jr calling out GGG yesterday, cherry picking a finished name?

Although I hate hearing hypothetical matchups of different eras in any sport this is a worthwhile debate as they were not that far apart prime wise. I was in AC when Kovalev utterly destroyed Hopkins and that Krusher I would have loved seeing against Canelo rather than the passive guy who succumbed 5 years later.

Big Ears

SHOVELLER wrote: »

Although I hate hearing hypothetical matchups of different eras in any sport this is a worthwhile debate as they were not that far apart prime wise. I was in AC when Kovalev utterly destroyed Hopkins and that Krusher I would have loved seeing against Canelo rather than the passive guy who succumbed 5 years later.

The only question about prime Kovalev Vs Canelo is whether Kovalev stops him, or Canelo takes a beating and manages to go the distance.
Prime Kovalev stops him imo.

I'd take Froch to get the better of Canelo aswell.
The current Super-Middleweight scene is so poor, it's no wonder Canelo is dominating it so easily, compared to having competitive fights like he had down at Middleweight (Vs Golovkin and Jacobs).

Rocky Fielding, Callum Smith and Anvi Yildrim, what sort of opposition is that to become top of the pile ?

How would Callum Smith have faired in the Super-Middweight Super 6 featuring Froch, Ward, Dirrell, Abraham, Taylor and Kessler, Glen Johnson.
Lucien Bute wasn't even in the tournament.
That's before you mention lesser guys like Sakio Bika, Robert Stieglitz, Allan Green, Librado Andrade, Groves and Degale on the way up.
Smith may not even be a top 10 fighter in that era.

Now we've got John Ryder ranked #6 (by the Ring) at Super-Middleweight.......Christ almighty it's a World away.

Saunders wasn't even a big Middleweight in truth and Canelo should have little trouble with him here.
Interesting how easy it was for Canelo to fight a faded Kovalev at Light-Heavweight, but not a mention of the top fighters at that weight now !

Sebastian Dangerfield

Big Ears wrote: »

Interesting how easy it was for Canelo to fight a faded Kovalev at Light-Heavweight, but not a mention of the top fighters at that weight now !

A bit similar to Roy Jones beating John Ruiz I think. They saw a chance for their fighter to make a bit of history against a fighter who wasnt (or in Kov's case, no longer was) representative of the achievement itself.

yourdeadwright

I think BJS will surprise a few people ,

He seems to be better against better opposition , Saul should still win but I think he may have some sticky patches,

People go on about Floyd near the end of his days cherry picking guys who seem to be just past there best, in my opinion Canelo is doing it even more so and at a much younger age,

We are 6 fights post GGG 2 and all have been cherry picked basically gimmie fights,

blade1

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I think BJS will surprise a few people ,

He seems to be better against better opposition , Saul should still win but I think he may have some sticky patches,

People go on about Floyd near the end of his days cherry picking guys who seem to be just past there best, in my opinion Canelo is doing it even more so and at a much younger age,

We are 6 fights post GGG 2 and all have been cherry picked basically gimmie fights,

I think he'll pinch a few rounds in the first half of the fight and may be ahead even after 5 rounds or so.
Probably start getting pummeled after that though.
Ref or towel saving him by the 10th at the very latest.

walshb

Big Ears wrote: »

The only question about prime Kovalev Vs Canelo is whether Kovalev stops him, or Canelo takes a beating and manages to go the distance.
Prime Kovalev stops him imo.

I'd take Froch to get the better of Canelo aswell.
The current Super-Middleweight scene is so poor, it's no wonder Canelo is dominating it so easily, compared to having competitive fights like he had down at Middleweight (Vs Golovkin and Jacobs).

Rocky Fielding, Callum Smith and Anvi Yildrim, what sort of opposition is that to become top of the pile ?

How would Callum Smith have faired in the Super-Middweight Super 6 featuring Froch, Ward, Dirrell, Abraham, Taylor and Kessler, Glen Johnson.
Lucien Bute wasn't even in the tournament.
That's before you mention lesser guys like Sakio Bika, Robert Stieglitz, Allan Green, Librado Andrade, Groves and Degale on the way up.
Smith may not even be a top 10 fighter in that era.

Now we've got John Ryder ranked #6 (by the Ring) at Super-Middleweight.......Christ almighty it's a World away.

Saunders wasn't even a big Middleweight in truth and Canelo should have little trouble with him here.
Interesting how easy it was for Canelo to fight a faded Kovalev at Light-Heavweight, but not a mention of the top fighters at that weight now !

I can't really add to this

The current SMWs are just not near the era of the super 6.

Smith would have been bombed out of it by Froch and Kessler, and Abraham, even. Ward plays with Smith all night. Several otheres from 12-15 years ago the same.

Canelo has next to no world class opposition at SMW. I mean, guys of the caliber of Kessler and Forch and Ward and Hopkins and Calzaghe etc...

Even the likes of a prime Bika would clean up today IMO.

Looking at Canelo beating a clearly faded and tame Kovalev, and an absolute waste of space in Callum Smith (because his showing was that bad) and thinking he easily beats a prime Froch seems absurd to me

He has speed over Froch. I give him that, and that could be very helpful, but he is too small for Froch. Froch would bully him all night, and absolutely can hit and hurt him.

walshb

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I think BJS will surprise a few people ,

He seems to be better against better opposition , Saul should still win but I think he may have some sticky patches,

People go on about Floyd near the end of his days cherry picking guys who seem to be just past there best, in my opinion Canelo is doing it even more so and at a much younger age,

We are 6 fights post GGG 2 and all have been cherry picked basically gimmie fights,

Who should he fight at 168?

There is only Benavidez and Plant...hardly awe inspiring these lads, and hardly ducking them

Smith was the best rated, and Canelo beat the crap out of him...

Hard to cherry pick when there are no fooking cherries....

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

Looking at Canelo beating a clearly faded and tame Kovalev, and an absolute waste of space in Callum Smith (because his showing was that bad) and thinking he easily beats a prime Froch seems absurd to me

He has speed over Froch. I give him that, and that could be very helpful, but he is too small for Froch. Froch would bully him all night, and absolutely can hit and hurt him.

But who out of the versions of fighters Froch beat would you pick to beat Canelo?

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

But who out of the versions of fighters Froch beat would you pick to beat Canelo?

Taylor at MW/SMW would be a very tough fight

Look at Danny Jacobs, a gatekeeper at MW IMO, and he did quite well...Taylor at his best well better than Jacobs...

Kessler would be a very tough match, and he beats Canelo at 168....too big and strong, and could box and fight and slug and punch....

Canelo is beating very weak opposition.....and I feel it is clouding people's judgmenet on him in an all time sense.

Yildirim, Smith and Kovalev....useless showings from all....

Pascal is a big strong unit at 168 lbs when Froch beat him....he would be a very tough fight for Canelo..

Taylor, Paschal and Kessler all can beat Canelo......

Sebastian Dangerfield

Canelo versus a prime Sergio Martinez would have been fun, though from memory Martinez wasnt a huge MW either.

weemcd

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

Canelo versus a prime Sergio Martinez would have been fun, though from memory Martinez wasnt a huge MW either.

Brilliant fight. At MW I'd probably give the edge to Sergio to be honest.

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

Taylor at MW/SMW would be a very tough fight

Look at Danny Jacobs, a gatekeeper at MW IMO, and he did quite well...Taylor at his best well better than Jacobs...

Kessler would be a very tough match, and he beats Canelo at 168....too big and strong, and could box and fight and slug and punch....

Canelo is beating very weak opposition.....and I feel it is clouding people's judgmenet on him in an all time sense.

Yildirim, Smith and Kovalev....useless showings from all....

Pascal is a big strong unit at 168 lbs when Froch beat him....he would be a very tough fight for Canelo..

Taylor, Paschal and Kessler all can beat Canelo......

I don't really see what Taylor would bring to trouble Canelo tbh. Good fighter and would be competitive with him but I'd struggle to see him actually winning especially at 168 where he wasnt at his best and had no good wins. Would feel confident in Canelo targeting his body and taking him out late. Taylor always had a fragility.

Kessler would be a tough fight I agree but the version of Kessler that Froch beat was a washed version who retired immediately after. Froch proved he couldn't beat a prime Kessler.

I just think using the lack of depth at 168 currently is a harsh stick to beat Canelo with. He's clearly talented enough to hang with the best of Froch's era and head to head I think he matches up with Froch well enough to get the better of him.

Will agree to disagree!

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

I don't really see what Taylor would bring to trouble Canelo tbh. Good fighter and would be competitive with him but I'd struggle to see him actually winning especially at 168 where he wasnt at his best and had no good wins. Would feel confident in Canelo targeting his body and taking him out late. Taylor always had a fragility.

Kessler would be a tough fight I agree but the version of Kessler that Froch beat was a washed version who retired immediately after. Froch proved he couldn't beat a prime Kessler.

I just think using the lack of depth at 168 currently is a harsh stick to beat Canelo with. He's clearly talented enough to hang with the best of Froch's era and head to head I think he matches up with Froch well enough to get the better of him.

Will agree to disagree!

Foch Kessler 1 was razor close....

Froch Kessler II was also close...

Fights could have went either way..

My using the lack of talent at 168 today was not to beat Canelo with, more to say that it could cloud one's judgment of him when matching him against very good and great 168 lbers from previous eras.

Canelo is a fighter that could do well in any era....

But at 168 lbs I think he is not the top dog from the Froch/Calzaghe/Kessler/Ward era, or from the Jones/Toney era....he is not big enough at the weight to be....

Plenty had GGG beating him at MW in both fights. I just am not seeing any great wins from Canelo at 168.....he has no opposition.

He has been in very close fights at the lower weights against good fighters, but not great....Trout and Lara are two...

Canelo is getting overrated for me in the historical/ATG sense.

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

But at 168 lbs I think he is not the top dog from the Froch era or from the Jones/Toney era....he is not big enoigh at the weight to be....

I agree with that but Froch was far from the best of his own era. Calzaghe, Ward and Kessler all definitely ahead of him.

I just think watching Froch against Ward especially and how he couldn't deal with Ward's speed and head movement I don't see why Canelo wouldn't be able to replicate that. Canelo is lot more physically strong than you're giving him credit for too I think.

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

I agree with that but Froch was far from the best of his own era. Calzaghe, Ward and Kessler all definitely ahead of him.

I just think watching Froch against Ward especially and how he couldn't deal with Ward's speed and head movement I don't see why Canelo wouldn't be able to replicate that. Canelo is lot more physically strong than you're giving him credit for too I think.

But Froch, apart from Ward was number 2/3 in a stacked division....him and Kessler were neck and neck.

Also, Ward is 6 feet or more......Big SMW.....

Canelo is 5 feet 9 in shoes....

Ward is more naturally big, rougher and stronger....

same for Calzaghe..........

I think the clearly smaller Canelo will have it very difficult to bully and man handle Froch like Ward was able to.......

It will be Froch with that bullying frame vs. Canelo....

Canelo is strong....I just think the likes of Ward, Froch, Kessler and Calzaghe are naturally bigger/stronger at 168 lbs

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

But Froch, apart from Ward was number 2/3 in a stacked division....him and Kessler were neck and neck.

Also, Ward is 6 feet or more......Big SMW.....

Canelo is 5 feet 9 in shoes....

Ward is more naturally big, rougher and stronger....

same for Calzaghe..........

I think the clearly smaller Canelo will have it very difficult to bully and man handle Froch like Ward was able to.......

It will be Froch with that bullying frame vs. Canelo....

Canelo is strong....I just think the likes of Ward, Froch, Kessler and Calzaghe are naturally bigger/stronger at 168 lbs

Canelo is bulky though. I think you're underrating how physically strong he is. You can talk all day about how washed Kovalev is but he still bullied a career 175er and knocked him out cold.

I don't see why he wouldn't be able to hang in the pocket with Froch. He's strong, defensively good enough and Froch's output would reduce greatly once he takes a few flush counters. Canelo would just be far too quick and slippery for Froch I think. Wish we could've seen it!

Big Ears

Morrison J wrote: »

I agree with that but Froch was far from the best of his own era. Calzaghe, Ward and Kessler all definitely ahead of him.

I just think watching Froch against Ward especially and how he couldn't deal with Ward's speed and head movement I don't see why Canelo wouldn't be able to replicate that. Canelo is lot more physically strong than you're giving him credit for too I think.

I'll give you one good reason Canelo couldn't replicate Ward's speed....... he's not as fast as him. Canelo is closer to Bute in speed than Ward.

He might also struggle to replicate Ward's head movement because his head movement is vastly inferior to Ward's too.

Canelo's an excellent fighter, but I have to agree with Walshb here, there seems to be a serious over rating of his achievements, and people some to forget about the close decisions he's received in certain fights.

The problem is though, with no top quality fighters out there at Super-Middleweight, and only an old Golovkin in a rubber match that could move up, no one is going to test him for the next few years.

Morrison J

Big Ears wrote: »

I'll give you one good reason Canelo couldn't replicate Ward's speed....... he's not as fast as him. Canelo is closer to Bute in speed than Ward.

He might also struggle to replicate Ward's head movement because his head movement is vastly inferior to Ward's too.

Definitely disagree with those points to be honest. Especially in relation to head movement I'd easily have Canelo over Ward. I think Ward would beat Canelo head to head in their primes but I think Ward would smother Canelo, lean on him and get the better of him inside more than he would beat him with speed and head movement.

Feel like I could swap Jacobs for Froch in the below clip and I'd have a decent idea about how large periods of that fight would go. Canelo being far too slippery, quick and skilled.

https://twitter.com/PlaysOfTheWeek/status/1125165525405822976?s=19

Big Ears

Morrison J wrote: »

Definitely disagree with those points to be honest. Especially in relation to head movement I'd easily have Canelo over Ward. I think Ward would beat Canelo head to head in their primes but I think Ward would smother Canelo, lean on him and get the better of him inside more than he would beat him with speed and head movement.

Feel like I could swap Jacobs for Froch in the below clip and I'd have a decent idea about how large periods of that fight would go. Canelo being far too slippery, quick and skilled.

https://twitter.com/PlaysOfTheWeek/status/1125165525405822976?s=19

Ward's head movement was very different from Canelo's, much more subtle, less bobbing and weaving and he'd look for single shot counters off a single slip.
Very different and imo more effective, it helped set up a huge amount of Ward's offence.
He did use a lot more footwork (in a defensive manner) than Canelo, out and back in to land, but the head movement was there too.

He was a very hard guy to hit clean with anything decent and his head movement was a big factor.

NewMan1982

I’ve nothing insightful to add, just an opinion. I could definitely see canelo in a competitive fight with Froch.

Froch had his fair share of close fights too as others have mentioned. Taylor was seconds from beating him. Direll arguably won that fight. Ward obviously won.

I’d fancy Canelo to take Frochs power making it a very good fight.

Morrison J

Big Ears wrote: »

Ward's head movement was very different from Canelo's, much more subtle, less bobbing and weaving and he'd look for single shot counters off a single slip.
Very different and imo more effective, it helped set up a huge amount of Ward's offence.
He did use a lot more footwork (in a defensive manner) than Canelo, out and back in to land, but the head movement was there too.

He was a very hard guy to hit clean with anything decent and his head movement was a big factor.

Ah yeah I don't doubt that Ward had good head movement, he definitely did but Canelo's is the elite of the elite. I couldn't agree that Ward's was vastly superior. I'm far from a Canelo fan tbh but you have to give credit when it's due. Defensively he's as good as there's been in boxing for a while.

walshb

I see Josh Warrington is looking to rematch Lara in September

Dangerous fight. Lara now knowing he can really hurt Warrington, and knows Warrington cannot hurt him badly...

I can see them making Warrington favorite, but I wouldn't be so sure...

Maybe Josh changes tactics and tries to box, move and spoil more....but will that be effective? His style is all about action and engagement and volume...

weemcd

walshb wrote: »

I see Josh Warrington is looking to rematch Lara in September

Dangerous fight. Lara now knowing he can really hurt Warrington, and knows Warrington cannot hurt him badly...

I can see them making Warrington favorite, but I wouldn't be so sure...

Maybe Josh changes tactics and tries to box, move and spoil more....but will that be effective? His style is all about action and engagement and volume...

I think this is a bad move from Warrington's camp. Take a different fight and get back into some form. Massive risk v reward here.

I'd take Lara if odds were any way decent.