The final nail - the proptery tax - my rant on TAX

JimmyTee

Most of us are on about the property tax and the valuations that have or may be put on our property's.

We are playing right into their oil can, most people have accepted the tax and have now moved onto the valuation issue and how much they will pay this year ( the half year to soften it) or next year.

I believe this is the pole tax in the making and in 4 or 5 year time we will be paying maybe a grand per year and it will seem like we always had this tax and "era sure it's just another thing we must pay and up she goes every year in the budget".

I was in the chipper earlier this evening and the girl/woman working away in there like mad all on her own sweat pouring off of her, and i thought how much is she earning (no a lot i guess) and of that not a lot how much will she hand over in TAX from, at source, after source .IE property TAX, and then the tax on the petrol she has to pay to get to work, god forbid she might smoke how much TAX is that now, and 21% on everything else she may buy.

Go back a 3 or 4 hundred years ago did we all put our wife and kids on the back burner and bustle off to work hard all day to earn money so we could hand it over to an organization.
No we did not we mainly worked for ourselves by effectively, gardening, we were self sufficient.

Before you think about me, well whats the answer Mr. know it all.

Protest,partition,march,burn the f**kers.

I don't have the answer, but i do feel like we are now the new black slaves that lived in the 17th and 18th centuries, and said yes sir three bag full sir, we are just the updated version, yes Enda, Brian or Bertie or whoever you happen to be how many bag full would you like sir.

Firmware Version 2.013 if you like.

Anyway this is just my rant, I don't expect you to comment or reply on it, but just read my rant, and think about where we are going and what kind of slaves our great grand kids will be.

JimmyTee

JimmyTee wrote: »

Go back a 3 or 4 hundred years ago did we all put our wife and kids on the back burner and bustle off to work hard all day to earn money so we could hand it over to an organization.


I don't have the answer, but i do feel like we are now the new black slaves that lived in the 17th and 18th centuries, and said yes sir three bag full sir, we are just the updated version, yes Enda, Brian or Bertie or whoever you happen to be how many bag full would you like sir.

Just on the first point, what organization are you talking about?

On the second point, are you ****ing serious?

wandatowell

I think there should be and should always have been a property tax.

StillWaters

3 or 400 years ago we were paying a tax on our fireplaces, the hearth tax, and then there was the window tax.

efb

VAT is 23%

shedweller

All of my money was being spent before any property taxes etc. so when i start to pay these new taxes i will be spending less elsewhere. Net gain to the govt will be zero. But the economy wont have benefitted from me spending my money in it so there will be more closures, more job losses and a continuation of this mess.

So bring in all the taxes you want. It just leaves less for us to spend in the economy.

monkeypants

JimmyTee wrote: »

pole tax

You can't stop there, that's discrimination. Tax the Chinese, Estonians, Lithuanians, Romanians, Russians, etc. also.

Pete_Cavan

JimmyTee wrote: »

I was in the chipper earlier this evening and the girl/woman working away in there like mad all on her own sweat pouring off of her, and i thought how much is she earning (no a lot i guess) and of that not a lot how much will she hand over in TAX from, at source, after source .IE property TAX, and then the tax on the petrol she has to pay to get to work, god forbid she might smoke how much TAX is that now, and 21% on everything else she may buy.

I take it you are just assuming that she owns a house and drives a car? Should the tax system for this country be set up to allow low income workers to live in large houses in the country, drive gas-guzzling cars and smoke like a chimney? The girl/woman you refer to may live in a more sustainable way, renting a property at an affordable price, living within walking distance of her place of work, shops, amenities, etc. and having disposable funds, after necessary expenses, to spend on cigarettes if she so chooses. The property tax may have little or no effect on her lifestyle.

Do people think that by transferring their own grievances onto others for the purpose of a rant that they seem less selfish?

monkeypants

JimmyTee wrote: »

Go back a 3 or 4 hundred years ago did we all put our wife and kids on the back burner

I don't think things will ever get so bad here again that we'll have to burn our families for heat.

Farmer Pudsey

OP

You raise an issue regarding the fariness of Tax. Tax like lifes not fair. The government requires tax. There are two spheres of thinking on this those that advacoate a low tax economy and thoses that advacote highservices funed by taxpayers.

In Ireland there is this misconception that we are a low tax economy. In reality we are not at this stage. even the Government are getting scared of new taxes see the putting off of water rates for six months.

We have the highest tax on cars, VAT and VRT and a high car tax as well. Our Fuel tax is about mid range. VAT rate is quite high as well. Personnel Taxation is high when you get above about 33K for a single person and 60-65K for a couple. The big issue is that we get a very poor level of service for this.

If you work in this country you are taxed to the hilt. Our rate of social welfare is the highest in Europe and this creates an income trap where it is unenomical often to work because of the rate of welfare and the benifits attached.

You made a point abot the lady working in the chipper. In reality she may have a low personnell rate of taxation if she earns less than 16K/year she would be bringing most of it home. See below for take home V income

16K =15.5K
20K=17.8K
25K=21.2K
30K=24.6K
35K=27.7K
40K=30.1K

When a single person reaches 33K over half of income goes in income tax. All that Household Charge and water rates will do is get more tax from the working class. There is a theory that these charges will get more tax from the self employed however history has shown that this will not be the case look at 3rd level College maintenance grants etc. It also will be a good reason to remain unemployed as again we see talk about waivers for water rates and reduction in charges for those on welfare and low incomes.

maninasia

While one has a right to be aggrieved about taxes one should really ask, why are they taxing me so much?

Is it because politicians like taxing people? I don't know any politicians who like introducing new taxes (except the greens).

So what is it then?

You have to look where the tax money is going. That's the real problem.

The 50,000 tonne elephant in the social welfare and public servant state. They are your friends and relatives, they may even be you yourself! Blaming the government is a fruitless exercise, a government that the majority of people have consistently elected on a platform TO NOT cut spending on their social welfare, on their wages, on their services.

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2010/11/02/where-should-ireland-cut-its-public-spending-thoughts-for-budget-2011-ii/

Where is Ireland spending above the odds?
The first point to make is that, relative to total income in the country, Ireland’s government spends more than most others in the EU. Excluding defence, Ireland’s government spends 52.4% of national income, putting Ireland’s government fifth in the EU league behind Denmark, Sweden, France and Finland (all around 54%) and well ahead of the UK, Germany and Spain (less than 50%).

In a country that has been running an approx. 10 billion Euro deficit annually but has shown extreme reluctance to cut social welfare rates or actively reduce public sector numbers there is NO OPTION but to increase tax. Borrowing more at this stage just increases the interest bill.

That's what the people have chosen.

Fortunately where I live presently they have a low cost low tax state, and while it has its own problems, it has 50% national debt and people get to keep the vast majority of the money they earn for themselves and their families.
Try introducing any tax hikes and you would see riots.

seamus

JimmyTee wrote: »

Go back a 3 or 4 hundred years ago did we all put our wife and kids on the back burner and bustle off to work hard all day to earn money so we could hand it over to an organization.
No we did not we mainly worked for ourselves by effectively, gardening, we were self sufficient.

Taxation is as old as civilisation itself. You're fooling yourself if you think that back in the 1600s people just worked away unfettered by any pesky government.

FWIW, there's very little stopping you from being self-sufficient as it is.

monkeypants

seamus wrote: »

Taxation is as old as civilisation itself. You're fooling yourself if you think that back in the 1600s people just worked away unfettered by any pesky government.

Indeed. Taxes were generally raised to pay for whatever the king was up to, mostly wars. If you think there were any services being provided in exchange, other than not being killed outright, you'd be mistaken. And even then there were no guarantees.

maninasia

monkeypants wrote: »

Indeed. Taxes were generally raised to pay for whatever the king was up to, mostly wars. If you think there were any services being provided in exchange, other than not being killed outright, you'd be mistaken. And even then there were no guarantees.

Well there were toll roads supposedly to pay for the road, I've no idea if they actually maintained the roads in a decent state or not.

monkeypants

maninasia wrote: »

Well there were toll roads supposedly to pay for the road, I've no idea if they actually maintained the roads in a decent state or not.

I doubt it. Was just paying for the use of the road/bridge. Similar to today. At least today you can complain about the state of the road/bridge. Whether anyone will pay attention...

nice_guy80

main issue for me is: we pay management levels in all levels of our civil servants, county councils, HSE, government departments, Pupilic sector companies and agencies too much

Add into that that politicians, doctors, higher gardai, fire officers etc

Until pay levels of upper levels of workers are brought down into line with other European countries then we are going to have to keep bringing in more taxes to balance the budgets and pay for future large pensions

shedweller

nice_guy80 wrote: »

main issue for me is: we pay management levels in all levels of our civil servants, county councils, HSE, government departments, Pupilic sector companies and agencies too much

Add into that that politicians, doctors, higher gardai, fire officers etc

Until pay levels of upper levels of workers are brought down into line with other European countries then we are going to have to keep bringing in more taxes to balance the budgets and pay for future large pensions

Are we going to bring anything else in line with EU levels? There's a lot that works better across the EU but not here. Healthcare, roads, Public transport.....

antoobrien

shedweller wrote: »

Are we going to bring anything else in line with EU levels? There's a lot that works better across the EU but not here. Healthcare, roads, Public transport.....

Oh hell no, we don't want anything like that. What would we have to complain about then?

shedweller

^^^^
The Weather?:o

Godge

nice_guy80 wrote: »

main issue for me is: we pay management levels in all levels of our civil servants, county councils, HSE, government departments, Pupilic sector companies and agencies too much

Add into that that politicians, doctors, higher gardai, fire officers etc

Until pay levels of upper levels of workers are brought down into line with other European countries then we are going to have to keep bringing in more taxes to balance the budgets and pay for future large pensions

And your evidence for this is?????

For example, heads of agencies are paid at different amounts. Are you saying that all of them are overpaid, some of them or none of them? What criteria have you used for calculating the level of overpayment?

Seeing as you left teachers, nurses, clerical and administrative staff, ordinary gardai, professors, lecturers etc. out of your list, they must be correctly paid, how do you justify that?

Say we give the school principals a 30% pay cut which means they are paid less than the teachers they manage, what do we do then? Let the teachers manage themselves?

Godge

JimmyTee wrote: »

Most of us are on about the property tax and the valuations that have or may be put on our property's.

We are playing right into their oil can, most people have accepted the tax and have now moved onto the valuation issue and how much they will pay this year ( the half year to soften it) or next year.

I believe this is the pole tax in the making and in 4 or 5 year time we will be paying maybe a grand per year and it will seem like we always had this tax and "era sure it's just another thing we must pay and up she goes every year in the budget".

I was in the chipper earlier this evening and the girl/woman working away in there like mad all on her own sweat pouring off of her, and i thought how much is she earning (no a lot i guess) and of that not a lot how much will she hand over in TAX from, at source, after source .IE property TAX, and then the tax on the petrol she has to pay to get to work, god forbid she might smoke how much TAX is that now, and 21% on everything else she may buy.

Go back a 3 or 4 hundred years ago did we all put our wife and kids on the back burner and bustle off to work hard all day to earn money so we could hand it over to an organization.
No we did not we mainly worked for ourselves by effectively, gardening, we were self sufficient.

Before you think about me, well whats the answer Mr. know it all.

Protest,partition,march,burn the f**kers.

I don't have the answer, but i do feel like we are now the new black slaves that lived in the 17th and 18th centuries, and said yes sir three bag full sir, we are just the updated version, yes Enda, Brian or Bertie or whoever you happen to be how many bag full would you like sir.

Firmware Version 2.013 if you like.

Anyway this is just my rant, I don't expect you to comment or reply on it, but just read my rant, and think about where we are going and what kind of slaves our great grand kids will be.

You can still afford the chipper, you are better off than some of us who are still paying all our bills including our property tax.

snaps

I agree with the op in his statement that we have just accepted this property tax. Don't forget also that we've the water tax next year, it will be interesting if once we are paying for water will someone be liable for the quality of it? Bit like this property tax and the exemptions of ghost/unfinished estates, councils are saying that now they are finished, but when it comes to the responsability of street lighting etc, all of a sudden they aren't finished.
Enda must be delighted we have lost our fight to stand up for ourselves, bet he's considering a bank account levy now, like in Cyprus. I had the shock of my life this month when car tax renewal came.....514€ for a year, 1.6diesel that I have to have as I've a family. The gas thing if that car was a year younger, the tax would be half it. Same car, same engine. My rant over.
Oh, every cent I earn goes. Don't have any luxurys now, don't go out anywhere, don't pump any money back into economy (apart from a few pints once a month if I have any cash left from running the house) don't even have proper holidays now, just vist family.

shedweller

See, thats the thing. Nearly all that we spend goes back to the govt in some form or another. All these new taxes are coming from money i would have spent in our economy. Now i can't.
What's that saying? Every euro we spend generates x euro? Something like that. It was more than one anyway!

snaps

shedweller wrote: »

See, thats the thing. Nearly all that we spend goes back to the govt in some form or another. All these new taxes are coming from money i would have spent in our economy. Now i can't.
What's that saying? Every euro we spend generates x euro? Something like that. It was more than one anyway!

we went out for a meal at Christmas as a treat, been swimming with kids a couple of times and I've been to the pub 3 times since new year. Turn the clock back 3 years ago, would have done something with kids every week, gone out for a meal at least once a month, pub once a week, usually a Friday after finishing work for the week. Haven't brought clothes for a couple of years. We play a lot of board games now with the kids, which is great for them.

shedweller

^^^^^^^
Exactly. Now if we could get a few words from our great leaders on this!

snaps

snaps wrote: »

we went out for a meal at Christmas as a treat, been swimming with kids a couple of times and I've been to the pub 3 times since new year. Turn the clock back 3 years ago, would have done something with kids every week, gone out for a meal at least once a month, pub once a week, usually a Friday after finishing work for the week. Haven't brought clothes for a couple of years. We play a lot of board games now with the kids, which is great for them.

So you're going to the pub ahead of buying clothes or taking your kids places? The pub isn't exactly cheap, now is it?

tayto lover

JimmyTee wrote: »

Most of us are on about the property tax and the valuations that have or may be put on our property's.

We are playing right into their oil can, most people have accepted the tax and have now moved onto the valuation issue and how much they will pay this year ( the half year to soften it) or next year.

I believe this is the pole tax in the making and in 4 or 5 year time we will be paying maybe a grand per year and it will seem like we always had this tax and "era sure it's just another thing we must pay and up she goes every year in the budget".

I was in the chipper earlier this evening and the girl/woman working away in there like mad all on her own sweat pouring off of her, and i thought how much is she earning (no a lot i guess) and of that not a lot how much will she hand over in TAX from, at source, after source .IE property TAX, and then the tax on the petrol she has to pay to get to work, god forbid she might smoke how much TAX is that now, and 21% on everything else she may buy.

Go back a 3 or 4 hundred years ago did we all put our wife and kids on the back burner and bustle off to work hard all day to earn money so we could hand it over to an organization.
No we did not we mainly worked for ourselves by effectively, gardening, we were self sufficient.

Before you think about me, well whats the answer Mr. know it all.

Protest,partition,march,burn the f**kers.

I don't have the answer, but i do feel like we are now the new black slaves that lived in the 17th and 18th centuries, and said yes sir three bag full sir, we are just the updated version, yes Enda, Brian or Bertie or whoever you happen to be how many bag full would you like sir.

Firmware Version 2.013 if you like.

Anyway this is just my rant, I don't expect you to comment or reply on it, but just read my rant, and think about where we are going and what kind of slaves our great grand kids will be.

Now you will have all the wee pro-Government posters coming out saying why it is the right thing to do now. Yet if any other party said to bring in a Property Tax they would knock it straight away. But of course their daddies supported the party.

snaps

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

So you're going to the pub ahead of buying clothes or taking your kids places? The pub isn't exactly cheap, now is it?

depends how much you spend. Don't need clothes, clothes I have are fine, few years old but they do the job. The kids are Fed and clothed, we go to the beach, walks, park, but not much that costs money.

MMAGirl

There should be a council tax that you pay for living in an area,, like in the uk.
Not an unfair tax that hits one section of society only.

tayto lover

MMAGirl wrote: »

There should be a council tax that you pay for living in an area,, like in the uk.
Not an unfair tax that hits one section of society only.

There should be no tax whatsoever on your family home.

Pete_Cavan

tayto lover wrote: »

There should be no tax whatsoever on your family home.

Why?

There should be no doubt we need to move away from the previous tax system which was based on building and selling houses and saw revenues collaspe with the construction sector. New, more sustainable taxes are needed which will provide guaranteed income. At least having a new tax based on the value of your house means those with a more valuable asset contribute more than those with a less valuable asset. What are the other options, a flat rate irrespective of wealth? Increase income taxes and make unemployment more attractive? Increase VAT and further damage consumer spending? Maybe instead of taxing the whole house we should just tax the windows?

Godge

snaps wrote: »

we went out for a meal at Christmas as a treat, been swimming with kids a couple of times and I've been to the pub 3 times since new year. Turn the clock back 3 years ago, would have done something with kids every week, gone out for a meal at least once a month, pub once a week, usually a Friday after finishing work for the week. Haven't brought clothes for a couple of years. We play a lot of board games now with the kids, which is great for them.

For many people around Europe, that would be considered a luxury lifestyle only available to the very well paid.

The problem Ireland has is that everyone expects so much. People lament what they have lost in terms of lifestyle but it was mostly an illusion that we couldn't afford.

If you had actually gone out a lot less during the good times and saved some of that money, you would be much better off now (unless you had put it in a Cypriot bank).

tayto lover

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Why?

There should be no doubt we need to move away from the previous tax system which was based on building and selling houses and saw revenues collaspe with the construction sector. New, more sustainable taxes are needed which will provide guaranteed income. At least having a new tax based on the value of your house means those with a more valuable asset contribute more than those with a less valuable asset. What are the other options, a flat rate irrespective of wealth? Increase income taxes and make unemployment more attractive? Increase VAT and further damage consumer spending? Maybe instead of taxing the whole house we should just tax the windows?

Those with bigger homes might now not be in a position to pay a Property Tax.
They might have retired and no longer be earning big wages after paying a mortgage while they were working.
It is wrong to expect them to now start paying a LPT at this stage because they would not have budgeted for it as they didn't expect it.
Didn't Enda Kenny say it was immoral and unjust anyway?

tayto lover

Godge wrote: »

For many people around Europe, that would be considered a luxury lifestyle only available to the very well paid.

The problem Ireland has is that everyone expects so much. People lament what they have lost in terms of lifestyle but it was mostly an illusion that we couldn't afford.

If you had actually gone out a lot less during the good times and saved some of that money, you would be much better off now (unless you had put it in a Cypriot bank).

Ah our old German friend again, Heinz Sight.

Pete_Cavan

tayto lover wrote: »

Those with bigger homes might now not be in a position to pay a Property Tax.
They might have retired and no longer be earning big wages after paying a mortgage while they were working.
It is wrong to expect them to now start paying a LPT at this stage because they would not have budgeted for it as they didn't expect it.
Didn't Enda Kenny say it was immoral and unjust anyway?

Retired people generally dont need to be living in large houses, they could sell up, releasing the value as retired people generally own their house outright, buy a smaller place, pay less property tax and have a lot of cash in the bank. The house would be freed up for a young family in need of such a property.

The problem with the house value tax is it punishes those who make improvements to their house, which is why a tax based on site value would be better.

tayto lover

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Retired people generally dont need to be living in large houses, they could sell up, releasing the value as retired people generally own their house outright, buy a smaller place, pay less property tax and have a lot of cash in the bank. The house would be freed up for a young family in need of such a property.

The problem with the house value tax is it punishes those who make improvements to their house, which is why a tax based on site value would be better.

So all the elderly just sell up? To who and why should they? Have the banks started giving out mortgages again?

MMAGirl

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Retired people generally dont need to be living in large houses, they could sell up, releasing the value as retired people generally own their house outright, buy a smaller place, pay less property tax and have a lot of cash in the bank. The house would be freed up for a young family in need of such a property.

The problem with the house value tax is it punishes those who make improvements to their house, which is why a tax based on site value would be better.

In that case, I'm sure they'll just sell up and move to some other country that treats senior citizens better. Or maybe we should just put them down.
We need a council tax like the UKs one where its those who live in and use an area that pay for it. Including those just renting. That would be a fair tax.

spank_inferno

MMAGirl wrote: »

I'm sure they'll just sell up and move to some other country that treats senior citizens better.

Is there any nation that treats senior citizens better?
I can't think of any.

tayto lover

spank_inferno wrote: »

Is there any nation that treats senior citizens better?
I can't think of any.

Maybe the FG people on here could organize a bit of an auld cull.
They seem to have a thing against the elderly.
Already we have been told that they need to sell up and move into smaller homes and that they are too well looked after.
Lovely party.

Pete_Cavan

tayto lover wrote: »

Maybe the FG people on here could organize a bit of an auld cull.
They seem to have a thing against the elderly.
Already we have been told that they need to sell up and move into smaller homes and that they are too well looked after.
Lovely party.

What is this? I thought this thread was for the discussion of the property tax, instead so far we have had a story from the OP about a girl who works in a chipper who may or may not pay a lot of tax and now you are telling us that the property tax is unfair because some old people may not be able to afford to live in a four bedroom house with a large garden! Perhaps you could offer your alternative revenue raising measure to fund local services which is more equitable instead of avoiding the question with the usual "Wont somebody think of the children/elderly/disabled/whatever disadvantaged group you have decided to jump in with.

Who are the "FG people" you refer to? Or do you assume that anyone who approves of one move by our coalition government (containing two parties) is a member of FG? A property tax is a form of wealth tax so is more likely to be supported by those on the left (or at least in every other country in the world that would be the case).

tayto lover

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

What is this? I thought this thread was for the discussion of the property tax, instead so far we have had a story from the OP about a girl who works in a chipper who may or may not pay a lot of tax and now you are telling us that the property tax is unfair because some old people may not be able to afford to live in a four bedroom house with a large garden! Perhaps you could offer your alternative revenue raising measure to fund local services which is more equitable instead of avoiding the question with the usual "Wont somebody think of the children/elderly/disabled/whatever disadvantaged group you have decided to jump in with.

Who are the "FG people" you refer to? Or do you assume that anyone who approves of one move by our coalition government (containing two parties) is a member of FG? A property tax is a form of wealth tax so is more likely to be supported by those on the left (or at least in every other country in the world that would be the case).

Did you forget to answer my own questions posted earlier. Here they are again-

So all the elderly just sell up? To who and why should they? Have the banks started giving out mortgages again?

I am strongly of the belief that there are many FG people posting on these threads in a vain effort to scare and cajole posters into paying this unfair and unjust tax. I think I am right too.

Pete_Cavan

tayto lover wrote: »

Did you forget to answer my own questions posted earlier. Here they are again-

So all the elderly just sell up? To who and why should they? Have the banks started giving out mortgages again?

I am strongly of the belief that there are many FG people posting on these threads in a vain effort to scare and cajole posters into paying this unfair and unjust tax. I think I am right too.

If person, be the elderly or otherwise, cant afford to live in a particular house then yes they should sell up. This is especially true of an elderly person/couple who will most likely own their house outright and have only a modest income on which to maintain the house. In many cases, regardless of a property tax, it makes financial sense for elderly people to downsize to a more modest house. And there are many people out there with large funds available to them who would be interested in purchasing well located houses.

So, how is the property tax unfair and unjust? What alternative, fairer, more just, funding mechenism would you introduce in its place?

So if somebody supports the introduction of a property tax then they are a FG person? As I alluded to earlier, there are many reasons why a person would support property tax, many of those reasons would make them unlikely to support FG.

creedp

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

If person, be the elderly or otherwise, cant afford to live in a particular house then yes they should sell up. This is especially true of an elderly person/couple who will most likely own their house outright and have only a modest income on which to maintain the house. In many cases, regardless of a property tax, it makes financial sense for elderly people to downsize to a more modest house. And there are many people out there with large funds available to them who would be interested in purchasing well located houses.

So, how is the property tax unfair and unjust? What alternative, fairer, more just, funding mechenism would you introduce in its place?

So if somebody supports the introduction of a property tax then they are a FG person? As I alluded to earlier, there are many reasons why a person would support property tax, many of those reasons would make them unlikely to support FG.

One of the reasons why it is unfair to introduce a property tax now is that is coincides with property values being on the floor following on from a boom which a previous Govt enflamed rather than controlled. Whatever about elderly people who either have no/minimum mortgage, I'd be more concerned about parents with young families who purchased houses during the boom with large mortgages, are now in negative equity and can hardly afford the mortgage not to mind a property tax.

If they sell to avoid the tax or downsize they will take a massive hit .. is this fair now? The problem is as pointed out earlier they are plenty of cash rich [wealthy people] people in this country who made a killing during the boom time who are almost like vultures circiling the wagons of distressed property sellers picking up bargains now at these peoples expense. The sight of these people high fiving at distressed property auctions is at best distasteful. These people probably benefited massively from the boom, indeed may have sold property to these same distressed people, made windfall gains and were subject to low capital gains tax etc.

Now they can turn around and buy back these same properties at a fraction of what they were sold for and make a killing all over again. I find this morally wrong. Its bad enough that individuals are in such distressed financial situations without the Govt imposing a property tax [or wealth tax on assets with negative asset value] while the people buying them with other forms of wealth which have avoided any taxation measures.

While people may argue otherwise many of these wealthy people are FG supporters and this makes all the more reprehensible in my view. A property tax should not be implemented now but instead introduce a wealth tax whicc actually taxes net worth and not negative worth. Problem is this would impact on an entirely different socio-economic cohort of the population and that is just not acceptable in this country

squod

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Why?

New, more sustainable taxes are needed .......

You've lost me there. What we need is the efficient use of money, not some pie in the sky fantasy that'll cause more harm than good.

sarumite

Godge wrote: »

Seeing as you left teachers, nurses, clerical and administrative staff, ordinary gardai, professors, lecturers etc. out of your list, they must be correctly paid, how do you justify that?

Considering the poster used the acronym 'etc', it would suggest that the list was not complete.

Farmer Pudsey

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

If person, be the elderly or otherwise, cant afford to live in a particular house then yes they should sell up. This is especially true of an elderly person/couple who will most likely own their house outright and have only a modest income on which to maintain the house. In many cases, regardless of a property tax, it makes financial sense for elderly people to downsize to a more modest house. And there are many people out there with large funds available to them who would be interested in purchasing well located houses.

So, how is the property tax unfair and unjust? What alternative, fairer, more just, funding mechenism would you introduce in its place?

So if somebody supports the introduction of a property tax then they are a FG person? As I alluded to earlier, there are many reasons why a person would support property tax, many of those reasons would make them unlikely to support FG.

tayto lover wrote: »

Did you forget to answer my own questions posted earlier. Here they are again-

So all the elderly just sell up? To who and why should they? Have the banks started giving out mortgages again?

I am strongly of the belief that there are many FG people posting on these threads in a vain effort to scare and cajole posters into paying this unfair and unjust tax. I think I am right too.

There is no requirement for the eldery to sell up, there is a provision for houseowners to defer the tax if they cannot afford it. When they decide to downsize or whenever the can afford the tax it can be paid then.

Not that I am overjoyed about the tax it again is turning out to be a tax on those that are working while those that do not work and look for the state to support them again take no cut in lifestyle or means.

creedp wrote: »

One of the reasons why it is unfair to introduce a property tax now is that is coincides with property values being on the floor following on from a boom which a previous Govt enflamed rather than controlled. Whatever about elderly people who either have no/minimum mortgage, I'd be more concerned about parents with young families who purchased houses during the boom with large mortgages, are now in negative equity and can hardly afford the mortgage not to mind a property tax.

If they sell to avoid the tax or downsize they will take a massive hit .. is this fair now? The problem is as pointed out earlier they are plenty of cash rich [wealthy people] people in this country who made a killing during the boom time who are almost like vultures circiling the wagons of distressed property sellers picking up bargains now at these peoples expense. The sight of these people high fiving at distressed property auctions is at best distasteful. These people probably benefited massively from the boom, indeed may have sold property to these same distressed people, made windfall gains and were subject to low capital gains tax etc.

Now they can turn around and buy back these same properties at a fraction of what they were sold for and make a killing all over again. I find this morally wrong. Its bad enough that individuals are in such distressed financial situations without the Govt imposing a property tax [or wealth tax on assets with negative asset value] while the people buying them with other forms of wealth which have avoided any taxation measures.

While people may argue otherwise many of these wealthy people are FG supporters and this makes all the more reprehensible in my view. A property tax should not be implemented now but instead introduce a wealth tax whicc actually taxes net worth and not negative worth. Problem is this would impact on an entirely different socio-economic cohort of the population and that is just not acceptable in this country

I answered he downsizing above. On those with cash that are buying property at present. Most of these were the so called idiots during the boom that kept cash in the bank and did not over stretch there finances. We saw this in 2008-10 in the car market where savy small garages made serious money turning over distressed cars.

I was at an allsop auction I did not see high fiveing by professionals rather I saw some ordinary punter that when they picked up a home that 6 years they could not afford say ''yes'' or hug fellow family members. I saw a professional lanlord pick up two semi-D's and like a cold finh both time get up and walk out while his wife waited for the property assaistat to come down to sort out.

Auctions are funny things people who bid are a different breed. I spend years trying to buy a farm I remember the bad day as well as the good.

monkeypants

snaps wrote: »

pub once a week...Haven't brought clothes

Jaysis, what pub is this?

creedp

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I answered he downsizing above. On those with cash that are buying property at present. Most of these were the so called idiots during the boom that kept cash in the bank and did not over stretch there finances. We saw this in 2008-10 in the car market where savy small garages made serious money turning over distressed cars.

I was at an allsop auction I did not see high fiveing by professionals rather I saw some ordinary punter that when they picked up a home that 6 years they could not afford say ''yes'' or hug fellow family members. I saw a professional lanlord pick up two semi-D's and like a cold finh both time get up and walk out while his wife waited for the property assaistat to come down to sort out.

By the way who is call who an idiot here?

What you appear to be saying is that most of the people who are snapping up distressed properties now are those who couldn't afford a house in the past and therefore all those who overstretched themselves buying overpriced houses with cheap and incredibly poorly regulated mortgage finance now deserve everything they get. One persons misery is another persons party. A but harsh I would say .. but maybe I'm misinterpreted you.

Auctions are funny things people who bid are a different breed. I spend years trying to buy a farm I remember the bad day as well as the good.

I also remember those times and I can tell you a farmer who bought a farm in those distressed circumstances would not be too welcome in the locality.

pablodiablo

I'm sickened by the attitude of some posters on these boards welcoming this tax. A few weeks back just before the valuations for properties were given out the news was dominated by the property tax. In the same bulletin it was announced that the number of people falling behind in mortgage repayments is rising how are these people supposed to pay this tax?

Water charges are on the way we've had the USC prices of everyday goods are going up along with petrol oil gas electric etc. there are people who just can't give anymore. I have no allegiance to any party for as far as I can make out it doesn't matter who is in government they're all a cosy cartel looking after themselves banking and big business. The waste of tax payers money should be addressed before any more taxes are even discussed. We have to much politicians and local councillors and our TD's are on truly extravagant wages and perks alongside other highly paid public servants. Even a look at RTE and the wages of the so called top stars is scandalous for the mediocrity they produce they should be tied to a salary of at most 70-80,000 thousand a year (is that even to generous?) if they are not happy with this then let them go out into the big bad world and see how they fare. We then have the situation with our government ministers and they're advisors take that beauty O'Reilly for instance with his 4 special advisors each on around or above 100,000euro a year...I don't know about the rest of ye but i would imagine voters in his district didn't see 4 special advisors tagged on next to his name when they voted in the last election. If the person can't do the job they shouldn't be there what if you turned up at work one day with 4 extra people to help you out think the boss would mind?

I'd summarize the situation we find ourselves in (from the so called good times to where we are now) like this...a group of 10 people are on a night out you have a government minister a bank CEO a developer and let's say a highly paid public servant and 6 ordinary joe soaps. The group is on a pubcrawl and with each pub the behaviour of the first 4 is getting progressively worse. By the time ye get to the night-club they are out of control. They thrash and wreck the place and for good measure they steal all the contents of the till do a legger never to be seen or heard from again...who's left to pick up the pieces only the 6 [EMAIL="fu@king"]fu@king[/EMAIL] eejits...

pablodiablo

pablodiablo wrote: »

I'd summarize the situation we find ourselves in (from the so called good times to where we are now) like this...a group of 10 people are on a night out you have a government minister a bank CEO a developer and let's say a highly paid public servant and 6 ordinary joe soaps. The group is on a pubcrawl and with each pub the behaviour of the first 4 is getting progressively worse. By the time ye get to the night-club they are out of control. They thrash and wreck the place and for good measure they steal all the contents of the till do a legger never to be seen or heard from again...who's left to pick up the pieces only the 6 [EMAIL="fu@king"]fu@king[/EMAIL] eejits...

You know, this is actually an extremely apt comparison to make. However, we voted for the parties with huge giveaway budgets, and I'm sure we will again. We voted for the party that was pumping up the construction industry to 20% of our economic output. We spent a ton of money, billions and billions, that was never ours to begin with. It was a fabrication of cheap credit, and TERRIBLE governance with zero financial regulation.

Now, I agree there is too much waste. Far too much. But the simple fact of it all is that people now expect to maintain their lifestyles (i.e. dole, pension, PS wages, health sector etc etc) which were boosted by all this FAKE money and affluence which flooded the economy between 03-08. The only problem is that, well, someone has to pay. If the construction industry can't fund our health and welfare overspends, then someone else must.

So, in conclusion, we probably should have been a bit more weary when the minister, developer, bank CEO and high ranking civil servant invited us into the jacks on the night for a few lines. We thought it was great, to be in with the lads. But then, when they eventually wrecked the place and we were left picking up the tab, we looked back regretfully and thought, "man, I should have gotten out of there as soon as the lines were even mentioned." But we didn't. We said (the country), "bring it on!"

Farmer Pudsey

creedp wrote: »

By the way who is call who an idiot here?

What you appear to be saying is that most of the people who are snapping up distressed properties now are those who couldn't afford a house in the past and therefore all those who overstretched themselves buying overpriced houses with cheap and incredibly poorly regulated mortgage finance now deserve everything they get. One persons misery is another persons party. A but harsh I would say .. but maybe I'm misinterpreted you.



I also remember those times and I can tell you a farmer who bought a farm in those distressed circumstances would not be too welcome in the locality.

The idiot remark was refering to during the boom anybody that lived a modestly life, did not take on too much debt and had money on deposit earning less than 1% was supposed to be an idiot by the wide boys. Yes a lot of people buying now are often professional landlords that were queezed out of the market during the boom by buyers that did not understand the fundementals of being a landlord. These guys bought houses a property company gauranteed the rent for the next 10 years and it was supposed to be ''Happy days''. The rent gaurantee was an illusion as these companies went bust. The owners were under pressure any way as intrest had gone up.

The reality is that very few family homes are being repossessed at present the houses that are being sold are mostly either investment properties or the odd trophy house with a sprinkling of family homes that were trophy houses during the boom.

However this will change in the next 6-18 months as the personnell insolvency legistlation comes into place. I feel sorry for some people caught up in it. However in othere threads there were posters that were continually talking down the property market late last year, it seems to be stabilising as the excess product is bought by cash buyers. I refered to this in a few threads that ordinary joe soaps would not be the winners as they would be unable to access mortgage money.

I referred to your remark to people whooping after pruchasses. In reality most professional investors bottom fishing for apartments or semi-D'd it is often like water off a ducks back. To them if the price is right they buy and if not there will be another next week. Usually the few people getting excited are either small buisness owners buying a premises that they are renting, a young person that buys a cheap apartment or an older couple that buy a trophy family home.

There was such a picture in the Indo after the last Allsop auction of an middle aged couple trhat bought a house with access to a lake and some land in Galway or Roscommon. You will get the comment from the English auctioneer of ''Well fought'' after some poor sod paid a bit over the odds for what may well be a bargin in 2-5 years time. For some couples it may weel be a blessing in disguise if they manage to get rid of a house and the debt attached.