The final nail - the proptery tax - my rant on TAX

creedp

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The idiot remark was refering to during the boom anybody that lived a modestly life, did not take on too much debt and had money on deposit earning less than 1% was supposed to be an idiot by the wide boys. Yes a lot of people buying now are often professional landlords that were queezed out of the market during the boom by buyers that did not understand the fundementals of being a landlord. These guys bought houses a property company gauranteed the rent for the next 10 years and it was supposed to be ''Happy days''. The rent gaurantee was an illusion as these companies went bust. The owners were under pressure any way as intrest had gone up.

The reality is that very few family homes are being repossessed at present the houses that are being sold are mostly either investment properties or the odd trophy house with a sprinkling of family homes that were trophy houses during the boom.

However this will change in the next 6-18 months as the personnell insolvency legistlation comes into place. I feel sorry for some people caught up in it. However in othere threads there were posters that were continually talking down the property market late last year, it seems to be stabilising as the excess product is bought by cash buyers. I refered to this in a few threads that ordinary joe soaps would not be the winners as they would be unable to access mortgage money.

I referred to your remark to people whooping after pruchasses. In reality most professional investors bottom fishing for apartments or semi-D'd it is often like water off a ducks back. To them if the price is right they buy and if not there will be another next week. Usually the few people getting excited are either small buisness owners buying a premises that they are renting, a young person that buys a cheap apartment or an older couple that buy a trophy family home.

There was such a picture in the Indo after the last Allsop auction of an middle aged couple trhat bought a house with access to a lake and some land in Galway or Roscommon. You will get the comment from the English auctioneer of ''Well fought'' after some poor sod paid a bit over the odds for what may well be a bargin in 2-5 years time. For some couples it may weel be a blessing in disguise if they manage to get rid of a house and the debt attached.

The reality is there are always winners and losers. I suppose my issue is that the losers now are getting a terrible pasting and while many find it easy to say they should have have a bit of cop on, that is why we are supposed to have regulation in place to stop the less clued in in society from doing harm to themselves. It didn't happen because a certain sector in society were absolutely coining it and now the so called foolish will have to pay very high price for this policy and to protect the wealth of the same sector that coined it.

MMAGirl

spank_inferno wrote: »

Is there any nation that treats senior citizens better?
I can't think of any.

I would say almost every nation in the world treats their elderly better than we do here.
It seems that here people want them to curl up and die, so they can get their houses that are too big for them. Houses that they worked their lives for by the way.
Perhaps Fine Gael can make it compulsory for us all to have off switches installed to be flipped when we hit 60.
I find it hilarious that the VAT on childrens shoes brought down the government before, but now the government can get away with anything.

Am Chile

JimmyTee wrote: »

most people have accepted the tax .

News to me most people have accepted a property tax- all polls over last few that involved the question about a property tax most were against it including a most recent poll.

However, there is a grim message for the Government in the public attitudes towards the property tax.
More than two thirds of people (67%) believe the tax is unfair, while 59% say they are less likely to support the Government parties as a result of the tax.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0323/378076-poll/

Tordelback

Godge wrote: »

For many people around Europe, that would be considered a luxury lifestyle only available to the very well paid.

What parts of Europe would these be where buying clothes or eating out once in a while is 'a luxury lifestyle only available to the very well paid'? Hyperbole doesn't serve your argument one bit.

I've been to the chipper once this year, haven't otherwise eaten out, been to the pub, or bought new clothes, but I did take my kids to a Saturday morning cinema show. Surely I'm the envy of whole Eurozone by now.

Returning to the topic at hand, taxation is necessary for a state to provide services and supports, and a tax on property is reasonably equitable predictable way to raise revenues (note non-owners will inevitably also pay it through rent increases). The gripe that most of us have is twofold: (1). It's not going to be used for services and supports, it's being used to pay debts the ownership of which people question and (2). it's being levied at a time when property is a liability rather than an asset for a significant proportion of mortgage holders.

Geuze

MMAGirl wrote: »

I would say almost every nation in the world treats their elderly better than we do here.

My retired parents pay 5% income tax on 50k income.

Free travel.

Household benefits package.

Two medical cards.

Free IT classes.

They can't believe how generous this country is to them.



No cut to State Pension, while all other welfare payments were cut twice.

Small cuts to PS pensions, while PS workers took bigger cuts.

tayto lover

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

You know, this is actually an extremely apt comparison to make. However, we voted for the parties with huge giveaway budgets, and I'm sure we will again. We voted for the party that was pumping up the construction industry to 20% of our economic output. We spent a ton of money, billions and billions, that was never ours to begin with. It was a fabrication of cheap credit, and TERRIBLE governance with zero financial regulation.

Now, I agree there is too much waste. Far too much. But the simple fact of it all is that people now expect to maintain their lifestyles (i.e. dole, pension, PS wages, health sector etc etc) which were boosted by all this FAKE money and affluence which flooded the economy between 03-08. The only problem is that, well, someone has to pay. If the construction industry can't fund our health and welfare overspends, then someone else must.

So, in conclusion, we probably should have been a bit more weary when the minister, developer, bank CEO and high ranking civil servant invited us into the jacks on the night for a few lines. We thought it was great, to be in with the lads. But then, when they eventually wrecked the place and we were left picking up the tab, we looked back regretfully and thought, "man, I should have gotten out of there as soon as the lines were even mentioned." But we didn't. We said (the country), "bring it on!"

That would also explain the poor opposition party actions against Fianna Fail when they were ruining the country with their policies.
Silence was golden back then too it seems.

Godge

tayto lover wrote: »

That would also explain the poor opposition party actions against Fianna Fail when they were ruining the country with their policies.
Silence was golden back then too it seems.

If you read the budget speeches of Richard Bruton and Joan Burton among others, you will see many warnings about the boom being wasted.

The most important thing this country needs to do is never to forget two things:

(1) The way that FF ruined this country and how we elected a gombeen to be Taoiseach three times running along with his incompetent sidekicks Cowen, McCreevy and Lenihan

(2) The terrorist murder campaign by the SF/IRA axis of evil

Once we remember both of those each time we go to the ballot box, the country will be a better place to live.

MMAGirl

Geuze wrote: »

My retired parents pay 5% income tax on 50k income.

Free travel.

Household benefits package.

Two medical cards.

Free IT classes.

They can't believe how generous this country is to them.



No cut to State Pension, while all other welfare payments were cut twice.

Small cuts to PS pensions, while PS workers took bigger cuts.

I wouldnt begrudge the elderly anything that they have worked for. And i'd like to thank them all for putting my generation through school and making a nice life for us all. A far better life than they had.

But if you think they have it too good, then maybe you can ask your parents for the money for an off switch to be installed. I'm sure they worked hard all their lives.

My dad gets the state pension. My mum gets next to nothing as she had to give up work when she got married at the time.
They get free travel so they can go out to visit their friends and people want that free travel taken away.
They cant believe how mean the state are to them.

tayto lover

Godge wrote: »

If you read the budget speeches of Richard Bruton and Joan Burton among others, you will see many warnings about the boom being wasted.

The most important thing this country needs to do is never to forget two things:

(1) The way that FF ruined this country and how we elected a gombeen to be Taoiseach three times running along with his incompetent sidekicks Cowen, McCreevy and Lenihan

(2) The terrorist murder campaign by the SF/IRA axis of evil

Once we remember both of those each time we go to the ballot box, the country will be a better place to live.

Exactly. No problems there BUT what about FG promising to burn the bondholders, not another red cent, no hospital closures etc etc?

Geuze

MMAGirl wrote: »

I wouldnt begrudge the elderly anything that they have worked for. And i'd like to thank them all for putting my generation through school and making a nice life for us all. A far better life than they had.

My dad gets the state pension. My mum gets next to nothing as she had to give up work when she got married at the time.
They get free travel so they can go out to visit their friends and people want that free travel taken away.
They cant believe how mean the state are to them.

I agree that they helped build up society.

I would not take the med card or the free travel away.

But I would ask them to pay a bit more tax.

5% on 50k is too low. We can't afford it, even though we respect their efforts and work over the years.

Icepick

MMAGirl wrote: »

My dad gets the state pension. My mum gets next to nothing as she had to give up work when she got married at the time.
They get free travel so they can go out to visit their friends and people want that free travel taken away.
They cant believe how mean the state are to them.

She gets one of the highest non-contributory pensions in the world.
Who do you think pays for it?

Godge

tayto lover wrote: »

Exactly. No problems there BUT what about FG promising to burn the bondholders, not another red cent, no hospital closures etc etc?

Not saying I am happy with Labour and Fine Gael but in any election the choice is often about the least worst alternative.

I have ruled out FF and SF, the independents (Ming, Wallace and Daly) have ruled themselves out as credible alternatives. That leaves FG, Lab, Socialist Party and the Greens. Hobsons choice.

Godge

MMAGirl wrote: »

I wouldnt begrudge the elderly anything that they have worked for. And i'd like to thank them all for putting my generation through school and making a nice life for us all. A far better life than they had.

But if you think they have it too good, then maybe you can ask your parents for the money for an off switch to be installed. I'm sure they worked hard all their lives.

My dad gets the state pension. My mum gets next to nothing as she had to give up work when she got married at the time.
They get free travel so they can go out to visit their friends and people want that free travel taken away.
They cant believe how mean the state are to them.

The current lot of pensioners have done best out of the recession, they also saw the greatest increase in standard of living within their lifetime. There are hundreds of thousands of people out there who will have a less comfortable time in retirement than their parents.

maninasia

I'll let you on in a secret, EVERYBODY gets old one day. Not everybody will get such a good pension though, that's guaranteed. People need to grow up a bit and figure out the money has to come from somewhere. The money for the current batch of pensioners comes from the people working now, so who is funding the next lot when the national pension fund has already been raided and debt to GDP is close to 200%?

creedp

Geuze wrote: »

My retired parents pay 5% income tax on 50k income.

Free travel.

Household benefits package.

Two medical cards.

Free IT classes.

They can't believe how generous this country is to them.



No cut to State Pension, while all other welfare payments were cut twice.

Small cuts to PS pensions, while PS workers took bigger cuts.

When put like that its pretty stark ... bottom line low/middle income working families are being screwed in this country.

MMAGirl

MMAGirl wrote: »

I would say almost every nation in the world treats their elderly better than we do here.
It seems that here people want them to curl up and die, so they can get their houses that are too big for them. Houses that they worked their lives for by the way.
Perhaps Fine Gael can make it compulsory for us all to have off switches installed to be flipped when we hit 60.
I find it hilarious that the VAT on childrens shoes brought down the government before, but now the government can get away with anything.

You realise there's only about €11 per week difference between the contributory and non contributory pensions?
Pensioners have barely been touched (apart from some now having to pay the taxes they were meant to be paying all along) and there's been only a tiny increase in unemployment in older age-groups.
I still don't understand all the deifying of older people either. When we look back at our country's history the crap that they put up with was far worse than anything we're having to deal with and it's older people, not people under 30 who consistently voted in **** government after **** government and yet we hear "Oh they built this country they deserve to be looked after" from the same people who complain about how awful the country is. It makes no sense.

StillWaters

I think the current pensioners are the last that will benefit from the post war welfare State. We will be working longer, and mostly fund our own pensions.
The current system is unsustainable, and very unfair considering the massive transfer of wealth from the younger generation to the older one that occurred over the past 15 years.

MMAGirl

Icepick wrote: »

She gets one of the highest non-contributory pensions in the world.
Who do you think pays for it?

oh but lets just forget about who paid for your hospital care, school, uni, roads, trains, buses and much much more. at huge rates of tax 60% too.
but now that you are all grown up lets throw those people under a bus and pretend they are not owed some payback, just so your tax never gets near what they suffered for you.

Solair

StillWaters wrote: »

3 or 400 years ago we were paying a tax on our fireplaces, the hearth tax, and then there was the window tax.

Stop giving them ideas! They already keep suggesting lunacy like a tax on SMS messages.

tayto lover wrote: »

Exactly. No problems there BUT what about FG promising to burn the bondholders, not another red cent, no hospital closures etc etc?

You'll notice they said a "red cent". You'll also notice that our cents are sort of bronzish colour and they've chucked billions upon billions of those into the bond holders' accounts.

However, not a single mystical red cent has been spent!

maninasia

See the usual emotive arguments used to try and suppress the reality that old people have it as good as any group in Ireland.

When we become pensioners our pension will have cost more in pension contributions contributed by us , it's very likely to not be as generous as the current one, it will be taxed more, lots of the handouts will be removed or means tested, and we will have worked five or years more that the current lot for the privilege.

What's your point MMAgirl, I don't think you have any.

MMAGirl

maninasia wrote: »

See the usual emotive arguments used to try and suppress the reality that old people have it as good as any group in Ireland.

When we become pensioners our pension will have cost more in pension contributions contributed by us , it's very likely to not be as generous as the current one, it will be taxed more, lots of the handouts will be removed or means tested, and we will have worked five or years more that the current lot for the privilege.

What's your point MMAgirl, I don't think you have any.

i see you are using the usual argument there, that people are trying to be emotive. its not really an argument is it.

fair is fair. the deal is that people look after the young and the old out of their tax, while they are working. you cant change that deal now just because you feel that those who have already given their part and are now pensioners are getting too much, then you want to welch on you part of the deal.

maybe we should now have a choice of paying towards the state pension with extra tax to cover our own personal old age. if you dont pay, you get nothing from the tax
pay when at pension age. then its up to yourself, and not some future welcher. so you pay less tax, but the only one it effects is you in the future.

Godge

MMAGirl wrote: »

i see you are using the usual argument there, that people are trying to be emotive. its not really an argument is it.

fair is fair. the deal is that people look after the young and the old out of their tax, while they are working. you cant change that deal now just because you feel that those who have already given their part and are now pensioners are getting too much, then you want to welch on you part of the deal.

maybe we should now have a choice of paying towards the state pension with extra tax to cover our own personal old age. if you dont pay, you get nothing from the tax
pay when at pension age. then its up to yourself, and not some future welcher. so you pay less tax, but the only one it effects is you in the future.

I think you are missing the point.

The current group of elderly elected FF governments for nigh on 35 years (from 1977 with only short breaks). It is arguable therefore that they should pay a higher price than anyone for that responsibility.

But nobody is arguing that. Nobody here is arguing that the elderly should pay more than their fair share. What is being said is that to date the elderly have been largely unaffected by the crisis and if the principle of equal sharing of the burden is to be imposed, then more focus on the elderly is needed.

creedp

MMAGirl wrote: »

i see you are using the usual argument there, that people are trying to be emotive. its not really an argument is it.

fair is fair. the deal is that people look after the young and the old out of their tax, while they are working. you cant change that deal now just because you feel that those who have already given their part and are now pensioners are getting too much, then you want to welch on you part of the deal.

maybe we should now have a choice of paying towards the state pension with extra tax to cover our own personal old age. if you dont pay, you get nothing from the tax
pay when at pension age. then its up to yourself, and not some future welcher. so you pay less tax, but the only one it effects is you in the future.

Back when the current pensioners were paying 60% in tax, the country was ****e for everyone including the then pensioners. Pensions were improved dramatically beyond what was contributed to these pensions by the current recipients. These increases were approved on the back of a temporary unsustainable boom. Now its over and therefore these rates should be reassessed. Just like everything else currently .. can't see why one cohort should be untouched or one deal should not be welshed on.

The argument that pensions are funded from current taxation is correct . the problem is that taxation pot has reduced dramatically so what's to happen. Cut workers pay, benefits to everyother sector in society so that pensioners can remain untouched? Seems to me thats a pretty unfair approach.

MMAGirl

creedp wrote: »

Back when the current pensioners were paying 60% in tax, the country was ****e for everyone including the then pensioners. Pensions were improved dramatically beyond what was contributed to these pensions by the current recipients. These increases were approved on the back of a temporary unsustainable boom. Now its over and therefore these rates should be reassessed. Just like everything else currently .. can't see why one cohort should be untouched or one deal should not be welshed on.

The argument that pensions are funded from current taxation is correct . the problem is that taxation pot has reduced dramatically so what's to happen. Cut workers pay, benefits to everyother sector in society so that pensioners can remain untouched? Seems to me thats a pretty unfair approach.

when you are paying 60% tax on your earnings then you can hold a candle to those people. until then, have some respect for what they have gone through for you.

creedp

MMAGirl wrote: »

when you are paying 60% tax on your earnings then you can hold a candle to those people. until then, have some respect for what they have gone through for you.

C'mon now - what happened in the past is gone .. we are now in the current and its not a very pleasant place for many. I can't see why paying a certain rate of tax in the past (when tax evasion was rampant by the way) results in an absolute protection from current recession related adjustments that many who are less well off have been forced to absorb. Seems to me some people want all the additonal protections/benefits introduced during the boom but don't want to hear anyting about the costs of same.

In relation to your specific point there have been may retirees in recent times that I would prefer not to hold a candle to .. thanks very much and that is in no way being disrespectful to the vast majotiry of elderly people.

Godge

MMAGirl wrote: »

when you are paying 60% tax on your earnings then you can hold a candle to those people. until then, have some respect for what they have gone through for you.

This is very funny, if I was still in the public service, I would be facing a marginal tax rate (inclusive of pension levy) of somewhere in the region of 63%, I would have received a pay cut of around 10% and would be facing another pay cut. I think most public servants are being left holding candles - probably to heat and light their houses though.

The elderly have not faced this.

Farmer Pudsey

MMAGirl wrote: »

when you are paying 60% tax on your earnings then you can hold a candle to those people. until then, have some respect for what they have gone through for you.

The problem was MMAGirl it was only the PAYE idiots were paying 60%. This is the stupidity if high marginal rates it enocourages maximum avoidance and down right evasion.

Look over the last 5 years pensioners and longterm social welfare recipents have avoided nearly any cuts in there standard of living. If anything there standard of living may have increased.

For someone on the basic contributary pension nobody begrudges them and if anything a lone pensioner (those living by themselves) dependant on the OAP they are not exactly living high on the hog.

However for those with pension's heading for the average industrial wage they have tax allowances and benifits that they do not require. However take the Bus Pass if it was removed would it save the country anything probally not as CIE would still require subsvention.

However it is morally wrong that a retired couple over 70 have a GP's card when a young couple with one or two kids earning less than 50K between them have to often think long and hard about taking a sick child to a GP. This is not the older people fault rather it is a misdirection of resources.

It is becoming a huge issue in this country as familys earning incomes less than 60K may well be financially and lifestyle wise better of is they were unemployed. That is not to say that compared to other developed countries that they pay a lot of tax rather that they recieve fewer services.

Comparing three couples all earning 60K each, 30K per invidual. The following is there take home.

Couple under 65 haveing an income of 60K earning 30K each have a net income of 49.7K

Couple between 65 and 69 haveing an income of 60K both on a pension of 30K each have a net income of 49K

Couple over 70 haveing an income of 60K both on a pension of 30K each have a net income of 49.8K

The young couple will have about another 130/child/month child benifit which a section of society believe should be targeted at the unemployed while they have all the child care expenses. The CA is equivlent to 30 euro/child/month. In other countries this family would have access to subsdised childcare and free medical care. In Ireland this is given to wealthy pensioners at no cost to them

The cost of a GP card is about 350/pensioner if they require this there is no reason that the state could not charge them for it.

MMAGirl

You are right.
Sure I only pay about 30% myself. The joys of being self employed and contracting abroad.
But it doesnt stop me appreciating what the pensioners have done for me in the past.

Farmer Pudsey

MMAGirl wrote: »

You are right.
Sure I only pay about 30% myself. The joys of being self employed and contracting abroad.
But it doesnt stop me appreciating what the pensioners have done for me in the past.

I remember too, let me see Bertie Ahern, Brien Cowan, Dermot Aherne, Noel Dempsey, Brien Goggin, Mary Harney, Fingers , will i keep going

creedp

MMAGirl wrote: »

You are right.
Sure I only pay about 30% myself. The joys of being self employed and contracting abroad.
But it doesnt stop me appreciating what the pensioners have done for me in the past.

It does seem to stop you appreciating how hard may working famililes have it though. They obviously have never done you a good turn.

tayto lover

In fairness pensioners have worked through many recessions. I would leave them alone in their old age. Let them enjoy their old age.








I'll be there myself in about 7 years but I have no ulterior motives:D
Honestly.

maninasia

People can retire now and live another 30 or 40 years. The days of looking at pensioners all rosy eyed will gone soon enough. Not because people are 'mean' but because there is not enough money to pay for such levels of welfare. It's a simple fact.

And as I said already the government moved the pensionable age up by two or three years in one stroke to and there were no protests, and in few years are very likely to make it 70 year minimum. My folks basically retired around 60-62 years of age.

Changes to the State Pension (Contributory)
The Social Welfare and Pensions Act 2011 made a number of changes to the qualifying age for State pensions. The qualifying age will rise to 67 in 2021 and 68 in 2028. So:

If you were born on or after 1 January 1955 the minimum qualifying State pension age will be 67.
If you were born on or after 1 January 1961 the minimum qualifying State pension age will be 68.

So there you go, the current lot do have it good indeed! Any more irrelevant bleating?

MMAGirl

creedp wrote: »

It does seem to stop you appreciating how hard may working famililes have it though. They obviously have never done you a good turn.

so you think other people never had to struggle and work hard for a living. must be a celtic cub.
i grew up in a council estate in the 80s, where noone had a job. And if they did, it was for a few days. when i started working there were no jobs and we all had to emigrate or stay with no job. i only went to uni when i was 24 because i had to go work to send money home to the family.
i think i understand hardship. i also think i understand that this carry on these days of begrudging people anything they have is purely a spoiled celtic cub phenomena. and its sickening.

Farmer Pudsey

MMAGirl wrote: »

so you think other people never had to struggle and work hard for a living. must be a celtic cub.
i grew up in a council estate in the 80s, where noone had a job. And if they did, it was for a few days. when i started working there were no jobs and we all had to emigrate or stay with no job. i only went to uni when i was 24 because i had to go work to send money home to the family.
i think i understand hardship. i also think i understand that this carry on these days of begrudging people anything they have is purely a spoiled celtic cub phenomena. and its sickening.

The bigest issue in Ireland is that over the last 5 years certain sections of society have been protected from the downturn. The pensioners now I have no issue with pensioners, however we treat other pensioners very well. Pensioners with pension's have extra tax allowances and have access to medical cards, free travel etc. We have also protected Social welfare

This has lead to a situtation where if you are a family working with an income less than 60K and maybe more there is little incentive to stay in employment. The only reason that most do is to preserve there sanity.

Taxes have been heaped and continue to be heaped on this section of society and benifit withdrawn. We have np support services for them. Believe it or not it was the same in the last recession however however young couples did not have the same burden of debt and there was a lot less well off pensioners. Social welfare in the last recession barly kept body and soul togeather and people worked at anything they could.

MMAGirl

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The bigest issue in Ireland is that over the last 5 years certain sections of society have been protected from the downturn. The pensioners now I have no issue with pensioners, however we treat other pensioners very well. Pensioners with pension's have extra tax allowances and have access to medical cards, free travel etc. We have also protected Social welfare

This has lead to a situtation where if you are a family working with an income less than 60K and maybe more there is little incentive to stay in employment. The only reason that most do is to preserve there sanity.

Taxes have been heaped and continue to be heaped on this section of society and benifit withdrawn. We have np support services for them. Believe it or not it was the same in the last recession however however young couples did not have the same burden of debt and there was a lot less well off pensioners. Social welfare in the last recession barly kept body and soul togeather and people worked at anything they could.

in the last recession you worked and your employer would pay you less and let you have time off to go collect your dole. If you didnt agree to that you didnt get the work.
Pick on someone else besides pensioners to take stuff off of. They are checked out. They have upheld their part of the deal.
Its like offering me €100 to paint your house. I spend my lifetime painting your house and then you say sorry, cant pay you. Fine if you said "cant pay you" near the start so i didnt waste the rest of my life on your house.

tayto lover

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The bigest issue in Ireland is that over the last 5 years certain sections of society have been protected from the downturn. The pensioners now I have no issue with pensioners, however we treat other pensioners very well. Pensioners with pension's have extra tax allowances and have access to medical cards, free travel etc. We have also protected Social welfare

This has lead to a situtation where if you are a family working with an income less than 60K and maybe more there is little incentive to stay in employment. The only reason that most do is to preserve there sanity.

Taxes have been heaped and continue to be heaped on this section of society and benifit withdrawn. We have np support services for them. Believe it or not it was the same in the last recession however however young couples did not have the same burden of debt and there was a lot less well off pensioners. Social welfare in the last recession barly kept body and soul togeather and people worked at anything they could.

Not true.
I lived and worked through many recessions.
This one is the worse by far.
The rich have barely been touched at all while the pensioners have lost fuel allowances, have to pay prescription charges and many spend most of their spare cash helping children or grandchildren.

noodler

Godge wrote: »

This is very funny, if I was still in the public service, I would be facing a marginal tax rate (inclusive of pension levy) of somewhere in the region of 63%, I would have received a pay cut of around 10% and would be facing another pay cut. I think most public servants are being left holding candles - probably to heat and light their houses though.

The elderly have not faced this.

You are relentless.

Average weekly salary in the PS is?

Guaranteed pensions?

Job security?

No one is denying they have made a contribution but it is fecking amazing that they are your 'go to people' when you need to portray the victim.

What about the 400,000 people on the live register? Their welfare has been cut, they have had no incremental increases on it, hasn't risen with inflation etc etc.

Farmer Pudsey

MMAGirl wrote: »

in the last recession you worked and your employer would pay you less and let you have time off to go collect your dole. If you didnt agree to that you didnt get the work.
Pick on someone else besides pensioners to take stuff off of. They are checked out. They have upheld their part of the deal.
Its like offering me €100 to paint your house. I spend my lifetime painting your house and then you say sorry, cant pay you. Fine if you said "cant pay you" near the start so i didnt waste the rest of my life on your house.

So you are telling me it is ok for young working couples with childern and a mortgage to be to be left without health care while giving it to pensioners that have way less costs. I am not picking on pensioners I myself will be retired in about 10 years ish. However I do believe that certain sections of society is being protected to the detriment of people at work.

tayto lover wrote: »

Not true.
I lived and worked through many recessions.
This one is the worse by far.
The rich have barely been touched at all while the pensioners have lost fuel allowances, have to pay prescription charges and many spend most of their spare cash helping children or grandchildren.

If you check the figures those earning higher money are taxed heavier. What is wealthy and how is it measured. How much money will be raised by taxing the rich. Have we learned anything about high tax in the last recession. At present the marginal rate is 52% do you propose a higher rate and at what rate of pay should it be applied and at what rate would it bo.

Dirt is 33% and next year PRSI at about 4% will be applied to deposit intrest. So an effective rate 37%.

Capital gains is at 33% so will we increase that. and if we do how much will it bring in.

Do we increase coporation tax??

Do you propose that like Cyprus we size part of people money that is on deposit with the banks.

Where is the golden goose that we will pluck.

MMAGirl

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

So you are telling me it is ok for young working couples with childern and a mortgage to be to be left without health care while giving it to pensioners that have way less costs. I am not picking on pensioners I myself will be retired in about 10 years ish. However I do believe that certain sections of society is being protected to the detriment of people at work.




If you check the figures those earning higher money are taxed heavier. What is wealthy and how is it measured. How much money will be raised by taxing the rich. Have we learned anything about high tax in the last recession. At present the marginal rate is 52% do you propose a higher rate and at what rate of pay should it be applied and at what rate would it bo.

Dirt is 33% and next year PRSI at about 4% will be applied to deposit intrest. So an effective rate 37%.

Capital gains is at 33% so will we increase that. and if we do how much will it bring in.

Do we increase coporation tax??

Do you propose that like Cyprus we size part of people money that is on deposit with the banks.

Where is the golden goose that we will pluck.

You've forgotten again that those pensioners were once young working couples with children living through recessions and paying huge interest on those mortgages. They had their hardship. Way worse than anyone has now. Leave them alone now please. Pick the bones off someone else, like someone who still has the means to earn more in the future.

Farmer Pudsey

MMAGirl wrote: »

You've forgotten again that those pensioners were once young working couples with children living through recessions and paying huge interest on those mortgages. They had their hardship. Way worse than anyone has now. Leave them alone now please. Pick the bones off someone else, like someone who still has the means to earn more in the future.

You did not answer any question well maybe you did. So it is all right to leave young working with nothing or no future. Because we have to make choices and the one we make are hitting workers

MMAGirl

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

You did not answer any question well maybe you did. So it is all right to leave young working with nothing or no future. Because we have to make choices and the one we make are hitting workers

Heres a choice. Give everyone currently paying tax the option of paying less tax in return for having no state pension. And if you pay no tax you get no state pension. If you want the state pension you pay for it. simple. No need to screw the people who have already kept their side of the deal.

Phoebas

MMAGirl wrote: »

You've forgotten again that those pensioners were once young working couples with children living through recessions and paying huge interest on those mortgages. They had their hardship. Way worse than anyone has now. Leave them alone now please.

Some paid huge mortgages and some didn't.
Some lived through terrible hardships and some didn't.
Some worked hard all their lives and some were wasters.

Why do some people try to treat pensioners are one amorphous group - its pretty condescending.

Farmer Pudsey

MMAGirl wrote: »

Heres a choice. Give everyone currently paying tax the option of paying less tax in return for having no state pension. And if you pay no tax you get no state pension. If you want the state pension you pay for it. simple. No need to screw the people who have already kept their side of the deal.

That is the reality already the government is in the process of trying to force workers to pay into private pension schemes. So they will have to pay for there own, they will have to pay for those that are unemployed and there pension and as well they are paying for present pensioners and for PS pensions who then get the benifit of reduced taxation on there pensions.

I am not advacoting screwing them rather I am pointing out that we need to redirect some resources from those wealty pensioners and from the unemployed towards those working family's that are on less thyan 60K/year.

maninasia

MMAGirl doesn't have a coherent argument, something about the 'poor pensioners' who created this wonderful country we now all live in (or not as is the case for many emigrants, forced or not).

Pensioners are people over 65, and that's about all they share in common.

At a certain point hitting working people and companies for more tax becomes counter productive, it doesn't work. Where is the money going to come from then to cover current social obligations?

Just posted in another thread here.
http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/exchequerstatements/2012/exchfinaldec.pdf

Look at the deficit. The money is simply not there. There was a 10 billion Euro deficit this year, that's 25% over budget. To reduce the deficit, more taxes are going to be introduced every year for the next few years. Meanwhile the interest bill starts to build on the accumulated deficit. In 2011 the deficit was 11 billion Euro, in 2012 the deficit was 10 billion Euro. Notice anything? Reducing the deficit is really hard! According to the recent EU treaty Ireland must get the annual deficit to within 3% of GDP within the next few years. There is no escape from this. So where is the deficit reduction going to happen? If you don't reduce some parts such as pension spending it's going to come out of other parts. As I said increased taxes after a certain stage becomes counterproductive as it starts crimping GDP growth severely. They will end up forcing people to emigrate or not being able to pay their debts or spend in the local economy. The answer is the fairest solution is burden sharing across the whole of society.

In my opinion this is a good idea.
http://www.ronanlyons.com/2011/09/20/a-budget-2012-proposal-make-all-income-from-the-state-taxable/

And is it right to not adjust the current social welfare rates including pension rates and benefits (note- adjust, they'll still be doing better than almost any country's pensioners that I know, nobody is saying they have to live in the poor house) when future pensioners are GUARANTEED to be hit hard? I wrote it all above, years of added extra work for the next lot of pensioners AND they get taxed more for the privilege AND will receive relatively less in monetary terms. These pensioners are going to be the ones getting hit hard with levies and extra taxes left right and centre i.e. the current working population who do not have it so easy like you say.

MMAGirl

my point is very simple, but people are so selfish that they dont want to get
it.
pensioners are finished their working lives.
they have held up their part of the bargain.
they looked after the children and pensioners out of their taxes while they were working. when they are retired the working people return the favour.
you dont change the deal because times got hard for you for a while.
if you want to change a deal you do it BEFORE you take their side of it.
they have been through their own hard times, much harder than anyone is going through now even.

and yes i agree that all income should be taxed.
but equally. there should be one tax rate of say 30%
so person working earning 100k pays 30k
person on dole and rent allowance and other payments, or pension of 20k pays 6k

someone else can work out the sweet number , but there should be one tax rate and ALL income should be taxed at that rate. the noone can complain they are hit harder.
the more you earn more tax you pay
if you want more money after tax then earn more.

Phoebas

MMAGirl wrote: »

my point is very simple, but people are so selfish that they dont want to get
it.

Your point is very simplistic and you've chosen to completely ignore the counterpoints that have been made.

And then you have the cheek to describe those who disagree with you as selfish. :mad:

AlexisM

MMAGirl wrote: »

pensioners are finished their working lives.
they have held up their part of the bargain.....
you dont change the deal because times got hard for you for a while.
if you want to change a deal you do it BEFORE you take their side of it. .

But the pensioners' deal HAS been changed over the years - for the better and better and better - should this not have been done because it was 'changing the deal'? My parents NEVER expected to be retired with the current level of state largesse. Surely you can see that 'the deal' will change with economic circumstances - when times are good, 'the deal' gets better but the opposite has to hold true - when times are bad, 'the deal' worsens. If you won't allow 'the deal' to worsen in bad times, well, 'the deal' cannot be allowed to get better in good times.

MMAGirl

Phoebas wrote: »

Some paid huge mortgages and some didn't.
Some lived through terrible hardships and some didn't.
Some worked hard all their lives and some were wasters.

Why do some people try to treat pensioners are one amorphous group - its pretty condescending.

Pensioners are different than any other group.
I'll leave it up to you to figure out why.
Pretty obvious too.

MMAGirl

AlexisM wrote: »

But the pensioners' deal HAS been changed over the years - for the better and better and better - should this not have been done because it was 'changing the deal'? My parents NEVER expected to be retired with the current level of state largesse. Surely you can see that 'the deal' will change with economic circumstances - when times are good, 'the deal' gets better but the opposite has to hold true - when times are bad, 'the deal' worsens. If you won't allow 'the deal' to worsen in bad times, well, 'the deal' cannot be allowed to get better in good times.

Anyone who thinks pensioners have it easy needs a kick in the head tbh.
What do you do when you need to increase your standard of living. You get a better, higher paying job. Pensioners cannot do this.
And if they could you would have some moaner complaining about how they are taking jobs from the young people.
Serious lack of respect for the elderly in Ireland. Sickening.

AlexisM

MMAGirl wrote: »

What do you do when you need to increase your standard of living. You get a better, higher paying job.

Wow, you should become some sort of national adviser. So, to all those thousands and thousands of people worried sick about their pay cuts and mortgages and bills: “What do you do when you need to increase your standard of living. You get a better, higher paying job.” Simples! A better, higher paying job – such a simple solution, how can we not have thought of this before! Your argument was pretty facile anyway but this plumbs such depths that I’m honestly embarrassed to have engaged in this debate.